Scottish independence and devolution superthread

[The Comedian]

Its chilling to think that the crash in oil prices could cost a normal sized family in an Independent Scotland ?5000 per annum. That's a ?100 per week. Yet within the larger UK our Shared resources mean that there is no substantial storm to weather and economic growth is ongoing. Proof positive of a major plank of the NO campaign.

 

And lets not forget that some serious commentators are saying that the North Sea Oil Industry could disappear completely if the oil price goes down much further. I don't believe that but putting our financial future into one basket is madness IMO.

Hopefully the NS doesn't collapse as it provides me with a living.

 

It's a problem however part of my reason for voting YES was I didn't want Scotland living in the pockets of London. I wanted it to stand on it's own two feet through good and bad.

 

The decision was the end of the matter for me, we had our chance and declined. We will see if it was a wise move over the years to come.

[Boris]

Agree entirely.

 

Salmond was all about accepting the sovereign will of the Scottish people, unless of course that outcome didn't suit the fanatical crusade. In which case the outcome isn't respected and we have Salmond and Sturgeon both outwardly suggesting the possibility, indeed probability, of another referendum inside the next 5 years.

 

I'm afraid to say this only serves to illustrate a complete disregard for democracy. Should there be another referendum idc I think wee Eck might find the terms a little less in their favour should such a situation transpire - which I don't think should happen.

 

The nation decided. It's time to move on. SNP need to be accountable for their actions and they might be better served looking at much needed revenue generating mechanisms that they've conveniently reneged upon for populist reasons.

 

Whilst I agree that the timescale for another referendum may be too soon, you are not suggesting that there can never be another one, are you?

[TheMaganator]

This is a fascinating blog on the oil and gas crisis

 

http://chokkablog.blogspot.co.uk/

 

Which ever way you went in the referendum this should give you pause for thought about whether or not the SNP are worthy of your vote at the next election. 

[Boris]

This is a fascinating blog on the oil and gas crisis

 

http://chokkablog.blogspot.co.uk/

 

Which ever way you went in the referendum this should give you pause for thought about whether or not the SNP are worthy of your vote at the next election. 

 

A bit like Osbourne's deficit reduction bluster then?  i.e. complete bollocks?

[Psychedelicropcircle]

This is a fascinating blog on the oil and gas crisis

 

http://chokkablog.blogspot.co.uk/

 

Which ever way you went in the referendum this should give you pause for thought about whether or not the SNP are worthy of your vote at the next election.

If your Aunty had baws......

[aussieh]

They lost the referendum. Badly.

 

Scots lost the indyref to the brits by approx 187,000 votes , 5.4% , we won't lose the next one.

[JamboX2]

Seen an interesting development arising today in the Yes and No 'new' media circles.

 

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2014/12/disbarred/

 

Craig Murray was a prominent yes blogger this year. Former Ambassador to Uzbekistan and until recently was a new SNP member being pushed by the higher ups to run for a seat. Pretty scathing attack on the SNP selection process and of the attitudes of some in the party to different ideas from the leadership. Not as much an open and happy camp as we've been lead to believe if this is all true.

 

Would add Margo MacDonald faced similar headaches for not being on message with Salmond, Sturgeon and Swinney in her day and was deselected on the list vote at Holyrood resulting in her becoming an independent.

 

As Mr Murray says, this new politics we want to see continue in Scotland of engagement and broad debates needs to have parties change to become broader coalitions of people willing to debate inside themselves as well as with others. Seems the SNP are still adapting to new members and new ways of doing things as much as the Scottish Labour Party and the Scottish Tories are.

[TheMaganator]

Seen an interesting development arising today in the Yes and No 'new' media circles.

 

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2014/12/disbarred/

 

Craig Murray was a prominent yes blogger this year. Former Ambassador to Uzbekistan and until recently was a new SNP member being pushed by the higher ups to run for a seat. Pretty scathing attack on the SNP selection process and of the attitudes of some in the party to different ideas from the leadership. Not as much an open and happy camp as we've been lead to believe if this is all true.

 

Would add Margo MacDonald faced similar headaches for not being on message with Salmond, Sturgeon and Swinney in her day and was deselected on the list vote at Holyrood resulting in her becoming an independent.

 

As Mr Murray says, this new politics we want to see continue in Scotland of engagement and broad debates needs to have parties change to become broader coalitions of people willing to debate inside themselves as well as with others. Seems the SNP are still adapting to new members and new ways of doing things as much as the Scottish Labour Party and the Scottish Tories are.

I saw this earlier.

 

It reinforces what I've always said about the SNP. If you're a member you can't question or challenge the leadership.

 

Slowly but surely Scotland will waken up to what this mob are.

[TheMaganator]

http://m.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/ukip-ready-to-take-on-alex-salmond-and-snp-1-3645016

 

I see Cockburn is taking him on - should be interesting

[JamboX2]

http://m.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/ukip-ready-to-take-on-alex-salmond-and-snp-1-3645016

 

I see Cockburn is taking him on - should be interesting

 

Coburn will not win. He will make it easier for Salmond who'll ignore the Liberal Democrats and focus on making it him v UKIP.

[Boris]

I've not read anyone else posting this as yet. Seems the polls still show an SNP landslide. Curtice' comments are very interesting.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/dec/26/labour-bloodbath-scotland-general-election-2015-snp-westminster

[The Comedian]

I've not read anyone else posting this as yet. Seems the polls still show an SNP landslide. Curtice' comments are very interesting.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/dec/26/labour-bloodbath-scotland-general-election-2015-snp-Westminster

 

 SNP is ?on the march in heartland Labour seats, and ? if anything ? to a greater extent than elsewhere?.

 

 

 

I would be delighted to see the repulsive branch office party wiped out.

[Guest Trapper John]

http://m.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/ukip-ready-to-take-on-alex-salmond-and-snp-1-3645016

 

I see Cockburn is taking him on - should be interesting

 

His views are absurd and belong in the 19th century. A total embarassment in fact. 

 

Just like Alex Salmond.

[Rand Paul's Ray Bans]

I thought Craig Murray was a fantasist? 

[JamboX2]

I've not read anyone else posting this as yet. Seems the polls still show an SNP landslide. Curtice' comments are very interesting.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/dec/26/labour-bloodbath-scotland-general-election-2015-snp-westminster

 

It certainly is worrying reading for Scottish Labour. It's taken them far far too long to raise their game. I think this is little too late. People like Lamont should never have been running the show nor should the party have been so limp wristed over Wendy Alexander all those years ago. 

 

What will be interesting is that it seems the SNP are becoming a single party of government. There is little decent opposition in Scotland and little breadth of political options and choices. The hubris which lead to an ambivalence and lack of urgency in acting by Scottish Labour against Scotland's ills was cause they didn't have much opposition. That will happen again with the SNP and it'll be bad for Scotland.

[JamboX2]

I thought Craig Murray was a fantasist? 

 

For a diplomat he's not very diplomatic, good at towing a party line or accepting of others views. But it's an interesting story doing the rounds at present. The "group discipline" of the SNP as a party policy in itself is one of the most stifling things I've ever heard of or seen though in British politics. It's no wonder the committee system at Holyrood is always split these days when Committee members cannot go too far off the SNP line if they are SNP members. It shows especially in justice issues where the mistakes made over Police Scotland and Corroboration and court reforms have been massive and the criticism from back benchers muted.

[Rand Paul's Ray Bans]

He does sound like a bit of a fantasist, and a nasty piece of work. He named one of Julian Assange's alleged rape victims and said they were working for the CIA; and he's said some horrific stuff about No voters (https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2014/10/lack-of-forgiveness/)

 

I wouldn't want someone like him being a prospective candidate for any party - it seems like the right decision to me.

[3fingersreid]

Scots lost the indyref to the brits by approx 187,000 votes , 5.4% , we won't lose the next one.

Aye okay then

 

(I know I shouldn't but fek it )

[aussieh]

Aye okay then

 

(I know I shouldn't but fek it )

Evening

[flecktimus]

He does sound like a bit of a fantasist, and a nasty piece of work. He named one of Julian Assange's alleged rape victims and said they were working for the CIA; and he's said some horrific stuff about No voters (https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2014/10/lack-of-forgiveness/)

 

I wouldn't want someone like him being a prospective candidate for any party - it seems like the right decision to me.

 

The guy is probably  a loose cannon, much the same as the Rev Stuart over at wings.

 

They have a part to play but not as MPs 

[Rand Paul's Ray Bans]

The guy is probably  a loose cannon, much the same as the Rev Stuart over at wings.

 

They have a part to play but not as MPs 

 

I prefer the term ****ing arsehole; and they shouldn't have a part at all. The only things this guy will do is alienate people, and influence others to do the same. 

[aussieh]

All the very best Mr A Salmond for the future, the greatest living Scotsman, I thank you for all you do for Scotland.

Cheers.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

I prefer the term ******* arsehole; and they shouldn't have a part at all. The only things this guy will do is alienate people, and influence others to do the same.

 

[JamboX2]

I prefer the term ******* arsehole; and they shouldn't have a part at all. The only things this guy will do is alienate people, and influence others to do the same.

 

[JamboX2]

All the very best Mr A Salmond for the future, the greatest living Scotsman, I thank you for all you do for Scotland.

Cheers.

Great politician. No doubt there. Greatest living Scotsman, dunno about that.

[Maroon Sailor]

All the very best Mr A Salmond for the future, the greatest living Scotsman, I thank you for all you do for Scotland.

Cheers.

Does better for a Mr A.Salmond Edited December 29, 2014 by Maroon Sailor

[3fingersreid]

Think aussieh just hooked you two

[Maroon Sailor]

Think aussieh just hooked you two

He sets the pins up somebody knocks them over

Edited December 29, 2014 by Maroon Sailor

[JamboX2]

I just think Mr R Neilson is the greatest living scot. Won't accept such heresy that he isn't.

[TheMaganator]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/10/alex-salmond-hypocrisy-former-scottish-tories-leader-annabel-goldie

 

This article is a few months old but it is worth posting nonetheless - it was originally lost in all of the referendum stramash. 

 

Its Goldie's take on the SNP & Tory informal coalition 2007-2011. 

 

Given how often they berated labour for their informal coalition with the tories during the referendum campaign - it does seem a little odd that the SNP would have been in their own informal coalition with them - does it not? This, given what we read above from Craig Murray on the SNP ensuring that their candidates would vote for the bedroom tax if they had to...

 

Or does it just not count because it was the SNP and they are immune from criticism from their support?

[Guest Trapper John]

Great politician. No doubt there. Greatest living Scotsman, dunno about that.

 

In what sense?

[aussieh]

In what sense?

Hes just turned the whole country on to politics, made the world notice Scotland, and took a fringe party to the top of Scottish politics and yet could become the deputy PM, and thats not including bringing the commonwealth games, and Ryder cup to our place and the whole worlds press here during the indyref, bit of credit where due trapper. Edited December 29, 2014 by aussieh

[Maroon Sailor]

Hes just turned the whole country on to politics, made the world notice Scotland, and took a fringe party to the top of Scottish politics and yet could become the deputy PM, and thats not including bringing the commonwealth games, and Ryder cup to our place and the whole worlds press here during the indyref, bit of credit where due trapper.

Commonwealth Games awarded in 2004

 

Gleneagles awarded the Ryder cup in 2001

[JamboX2]

Hes just turned the whole country on to politics, made the world notice Scotland, and took a fringe party to the top of Scottish politics and yet could become the deputy PM, and thats not including bringing the commonwealth games, and Ryder cup to our place and the whole worlds press here during the indyref, bit of credit where due trapper.

Tbf, Ryder Cup and Commonwealth bids were made, run and accepted under Jack McConnell. He was in post a couple of months when the Commie Games Board selected Glasgow. Plus Sturgeon done the dogs work of getting it all set up.

 

Also it was mad to think it wouldn't have been an engaging and vigorous political debate on independence. Many people were brought in through the Trade Unions, Labour, Greens, RiC, Friends of the Union (a Tory group), business, school, unis, friends etc. I don't think he deserves too much praise there. He did help stoke, as others did on both sides, the disgusting tribalism we saw in some quarters and he did talk big and act light in government with little major improvements made to many piss poor stats on Scotland's poverty, bad health etc. But who has?

 

He was and is a populist. A man who like Blair could read what people wanted, offer it and win. His white paper offered no major changes to how the nation worked but it was full of easy to do and populist policies. Which nearly helped him win.

 

As a politician, to have taken a divided, broken and defeated party which had no real signs of doing better and making them a government and then a majority one soon after is nothing but impressive.

[JamboX2]

http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobile/comment/columnists/david-torrance-lessons-still-to-be-learned-by-the-class-of-92-x.115243975

 

Pretty much this for me on the last year and going forward from Mr Salmond.

[aussieh]

Oh I forgot, destroyed the once mighty SLP, by opening everybodies eyes to what they stand for, the self preservation society. In regards to mending Scotlands ills, that was an impossible task, with the mess the labour party left behind, The Snp made sure both sporting events ran smoothly and to budget, unlike the london olympics.Suppose it wouldnt matter what he did , its never good enough for some.

Edited December 29, 2014 by aussieh

[Psychedelicropcircle]

http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobile/comment/columnists/david-torrance-lessons-still-to-be-learned-by-the-class-of-92-x.115243975

 

Pretty much this for me on the last year and going forward from Mr Salmond.

So not so much about right & left more truth & lies ?

[aussieh]

Commonwealth Games awarded in 2004

 

Gleneagles awarded the Ryder cup in 2001

CW games awarded 9/11/2007

[Mr Brightside]

CW games awarded 9/11/2007

Don't think the SNP can take credit for a bidding process that began a year before they were in coalition power and the deadline for bid submissions was less than a week after the 2007 election.

[Guest Trapper John]

Don't think the SNP can take credit for a bidding process that began a year before they were in coalition power and the deadline for bid submissions was less than a week after the 2007 election.

They'd take anything going.

[JamboX2]

So not so much about right & left more truth & lies ?

More the not as great a year as we thought or think. The fact is and remains and can be seen on this thread, I've been bad for it, that tribalism grew in Scotland and is getting worse. Something not appealing. Also the fact that the yes camp weren't offereing a much different future than the no camp and that the nation needs deeper and more honest policies to make go forward or address the ills of our country.

[JamboX2]

Oh I forgot, destroyed the once mighty SLP, by opening everybodies eyes to what they stand for, the self preservation society. In regards to mending Scotlands ills, that was an impossible task, with the mess the labour party left behind, The Snp made sure both sporting events ran smoothly and to budget, unlike the london olympics.Suppose it wouldnt matter what he did , its never good enough for some.

I don't care what you think about Scottish Labour. But their implosion is and was of their own making not Salmond's. Remember Salmond only won by a seat in 2007. In 2011 it was Scottish Labours failure to right that for themselves and they had a piss poor leader and a campaign focused on the wrong issues.

 

What Salmond's government did was deliver a successful games. Didn't bid for nor draw up the proposal, but delivered it on time and on budget. With help from his Minister for Commonwealth Games in Sturgeon and Lord Smith head of the games. Hence I don't think Eck deserves that much praise here. His government and those involved in the games do, not solely him.

 

Both events deserve the praise of scots. They done wonders for scottish sporting achievement and helped Scotland and Britains world opinion grow. Excellent for both.

 

Salmond, was marmite. I didn't and don't like the man. He's a populist with little weight on policy. HIs lack of action government shows this. From council tax to land law reform to health provision and social mobility his government failed to do much more than had been before and in some cases dodged doing anything too controversial. He wasn't a great reformer or a great progressive First Minister. He did however do wonders for the SNP and did make scots reassess themselves and Scotland and our role in the UK and beyond. May not have won that battle for indepenendence but scots are more confident and aware as a result.

Edited December 30, 2014 by JamboX2

[aussieh]

Don't think the SNP can take credit for a bidding process that began a year before they were in coalition power and the deadline for bid submissions was less than a week after the 2007 election.

I know, but they did help put it together from there in , was only really an add on comment, the real issue is the constant attack on the guy, for no reason hes wants Scotland to be independent. Thought id give him a wee bit of praise, hes not done too badly.

[aussieh]

I don't care what you think about Scottish Labour. But their implosion is and was of their own making not Salmond's. Remember Salmond only won by a seat in 2007. In 2011 it was Scottish Labours failure to right that for themselves and they had a piss poor leader and a campaign focused on the wrong issues.

 

What Salmond's government did was deliver a successful games. Didn't bid for nor draw up the proposal, but delivered it on time and on budget. With help from his Minister for Commonwealth Games in Sturgeon and Lord Smith head of the games. Hence I don't think Eck deserves that much praise here. His government and those involved in the games do, not solely him.

 

Both events deserve the praise of scots. They done wonders for scottish sporting achievement and helped Scotland and Britains world opinion grow. Excellent for both.

 

Salmond, was marmite. I didn't and don't like the man. He's a populist with little weight on policy. HIs lack of action government shows this. From council tax to land law reform to health provision and social mobility his government failed to do much more than had been before and in some cases dodged doing anything too controversial. He wasn't a great reformer or a great progressive First Minister. He did however do wonders for the SNP and did make scots reassess themselves and Scotland and our role in the UK and beyond. May not have won that battle for indepenendence but scots are more confident and aware as a result.

Well you should, thats exactly where labour has gone wrong, ive voted labour all my days , but instead of trying to address my issues with labour, all I and others get and not just from yourself, is the stubborn I dont care , well its time labour stopped fecking about and got itself out the gutter.

Saying that its lack of leadership in westmonster, and the arrival of irn bru man, wont help.

[aussieh]

Jx2 of course he is a populist, they all are.

To damn the Snp and Mr Salmond after steadying the ship up here after the carnage left behind by the global financial disasters, and some self inflicted policies from the labour government is a touch off, considering holyroods powers were and still are pathetic.

You cant polish a turd, or clean a hibs top after its been worn.

Edited December 30, 2014 by aussieh

[JamboX2]

Well you should, thats exactly where labour has gone wrong, ive voted labour all my days , but instead of trying to address my issues with labour, all I and others get and not just from yourself, is the stubborn I dont care , well its time labour stopped fecking about and got itself out the gutter.

Saying that its lack of leadership in westmonster, and the arrival of irn bru man, wont help.

I think you've not got my point. Scottish Labour imploded. That wasn't down to Salmond, who is who we're discussing.That was down to incompetent leadership, a lack of clear policy direction and an inability to connect with the communities they represent. All of that was based in Scotland and has little to do with Westminster. Murphy isn't who I wanted, but he's much better and much more capable for the job of rebuilding than Gray or Lamont ever were.

 

The way the party gets itself out the gutter though is developing a message built on social justice, better education and a health service which isn't lurching between bungled appointments and a lack of planning. Not by chasing the yes vote on trident and other such things which social attitudes surveys and polling repeatedly show aren't high up scots agendas.

[JamboX2]

Jx2 of course he is a populist, they all are.

To damn the Snp and Mr Salmond after steadying the ship up here after the carnage left behind by the global financial disasters, and some self inflicted policies from the labour government is a touch off, considering holyroods powers were and still are pathetic.

You cant polish a turd, or clean a hibs top after its been worn.

Holyrood isn't a toothless beast. The Lab-Lib coalitions before Salmond done a lot of good and made big strides against sectarian crime, health inequality, child poverty, improved social mobility and land reform. Salmond dropped the ball on a lot of issues. In fact on anti-sectarian and anti-poverty work his governments cut the funding to these areas.

 

As I say, he is and was a great politician. And good political strategist and a impressive speaker (seen him at a Uni debate years ago on independence). But I think, and it's a personal opinion, that he kinda done himself damage by not doing more as leader of the country and also got too involved in the tribalistic side of the campaign for independence which did his cause some damage. He wasn't alone, Darling, Murphy, Lamont, Rennie, Davidson etc, all said things they shouldn't have, as did Sturgeon, MacAskill, Swinney, Jenkins and Cannavn. But a lot of statements pandered to his own side and didn't do what you need to do in a referendum where you're starting from 30%, build bridges.

[Coco]

I don't care what you think about Scottish Labour. But their implosion is and was of their own making not Salmond's. Remember Salmond only won by a seat in 2007. In 2011 it was Scottish Labours failure to right that for themselves and they had a piss poor leader and a campaign focused on the wrong issues.

 

What Salmond's government did was deliver a successful games. Didn't bid for nor draw up the proposal, but delivered it on time and on budget. With help from his Minister for Commonwealth Games in Sturgeon and Lord Smith head of the games. Hence I don't think Eck deserves that much praise here. His government and those involved in the games do, not solely him.

 

Both events deserve the praise of scots. They done wonders for scottish sporting achievement and helped Scotland and Britains world opinion grow. Excellent for both.

 

Salmond, was marmite. I didn't and don't like the man. He's a populist with little weight on policy. HIs lack of action government shows this. From council tax to land law reform to health provision and social mobility his government failed to do much more than had been before and in some cases dodged doing anything too controversial. He wasn't a great reformer or a great progressive First Minister. He did however do wonders for the SNP and did make scots reassess themselves and Scotland and our role in the UK and beyond. May not have won that battle for indepenendence but scots are more confident and aware as a result.

This piece suggests that the suggestion that the games were under budget is equivalent to the eventual claim that the Scottish Parliament came in under budget.

http://www.scottishreview.net/KennethRoy188.shtml

[JamboX2]

This piece suggests that the suggestion that the games were under budget is equivalent to the eventual claim that the Scottish Parliament came in under budget.

http://www.scottishreview.net/KennethRoy188.shtml

A lot of stuff there I don't even remember being reported all that much at the time. Interesting article. Another case of a weak opposition and weak backbench committees being drowned out?

[TheMaganator]

This piece suggests that the suggestion that the games were under budget is equivalent to the eventual claim that the Scottish Parliament came in under budget.

http://www.scottishreview.net/KennethRoy188.shtml

Anything can come under budget if you keep on raising the budget. 

 

Pretty poor from Salmond and Smith - i obviously expect it from the former but am disappointed by the latter.