Scottish independence and devolution superthread

[jack D and coke]

Labour and Conservatives have used division tactics for years.

 

But that's okay, I'm assuming.

I agree 100%. Nobody created the demonising and the Tory scum ideal more than labour.

 

Look up how they followed John Major around before he got elected attempting to intimidate and put fear into him it was disgraceful. Yet Jim Murphy gets hit by a solitary egg and the Nats are the biggest scum that ever lived.

 

Labour are proper vermin.

 

They're reaping what they sewed and they don't like it one bit.

[JamboX2]

I agree 100%. Nobody created the demonising and the Tory scum ideal more than labour.

Look up how they followed John Major around before he got elected attempting to intimidate and put fear into him it was disgraceful. Yet Jim Murphy gets hit by a solitary egg and the Nats are the biggest scum that ever lived.

Labour are proper vermin.

They're reaping what they sewed and they don't like it one bit.

Dunno. Murphy put himself out there. He got egged. The boy was prosecuted as anyone breaching the peace should. Dunno if the boy makes Nats scum. Thats a substantive interpretation as to whether they become scum. Never subscribed to it myself.

 

Dunno what they sewed. But they did have dreadful leaders who couldn't speak in public and looked ghastly on TV. If anything bad leadership is labours bug bear in Scotland.

 

From those i know who are active in Labour, no one cared about the egging. Nobody really paid it much notice. And all couldn't belive Murphy called it off after it. Mad. Again, shoot yourself in the foot.

[Rand Paul's Ray Bans]

I agree 100%. Nobody created the demonising and the Tory scum ideal more than labour.

 

Look up how they followed John Major around before he got elected attempting to intimidate and put fear into him it was disgraceful. Yet Jim Murphy gets hit by a solitary egg and the Nats are the biggest scum that ever lived.

 

Labour are proper vermin.

 

They're reaping what they sewed and they don't like it one bit.

 

Yep - I'm not condoning how the SNP use division tactics as well, but unfortunately these tactics have been used in the past and will be used in the future by political parties. It's distasteful, but it's common denominator stuff; and it works.  

[Guest Trapper John]

I agree 100%. Nobody created the demonising and the Tory scum ideal more than labour.

 

Look up how they followed John Major around before he got elected attempting to intimidate and put fear into him it was disgraceful. Yet Jim Murphy gets hit by a solitary egg and the Nats are the biggest scum that ever lived.

 

Labour are proper vermin.

 

They're reaping what they sewed and they don't like it one bit.

 

Do you think that using such terminology adds credibility to your 'arguments'?

 

Labelling opponents 'vermin' harps back to a particularly nasty mob prevalent back in the 1930's & 40's.

 

Embarassing.

 

Hell truly is the Internet.

[jack D and coke]

Do you think that using such terminology adds credibility to your 'arguments'?

 

Labelling opponents 'vermin' harps back to a particularly nasty mob prevalent back in the 1930's & 40's.

 

Embarassing.

 

Hell truly is the Internet.

Don't take it so seriously man. I don't particularly like labour I'm sure your aware of that. I hate the way they've manipulated scotland for years and their little cliquey councils all over the country get my goat. I've actually voted labour in the past btw but I, like many many scots have had enough of them right now. It might not always be that way but at the moment that's the way it is.

 

I find it pretty amusing that they are getting a dose of their own medicine from the snp these days and they have absolutely no idea how to deal with it.

 

Don't take it personally.

[JamboX2]

Don't take it so seriously man. I don't particularly like labour I'm sure your aware of that. I hate the way they've manipulated scotland for years and their little cliquey councils all over the country get my goat. I've actually voted labour in the past btw but I, like many many scots have had enough of them right now. It might not always be that way but at the moment that's the way it is.

I find it pretty amusing that they are getting a dose of their own medicine from the snp these days and they have absolutely no idea how to deal with it.

Don't take it personally.

It's a crisis of their own making. But the signs are the SNP are just replacing Labour cliques, backroom deals and vested interests. Out with the old, in with the old it seems.

 

If we're wanting a new and more directly democratic Scotland it's not them.

[Boris]

If we're wanting a new and more directly democratic Scotland it's not them.

We'll never get the above unless

 

i) The Westminster system is totally modernised and democratised

 

Or

 

ii) Independence is achieved.

Edited January 2, 2015 by Boris

[cosanostra]

Do you think that using such terminology adds credibility to your 'arguments'?

 

Labelling opponents 'vermin' harps back to a particularly nasty mob prevalent back in the 1930's & 40's.

 

Embarassing.

 

Hell truly is the Internet.

This post by you was equally stupid.

 

"The English do not vote for extremists in general elections. They are in the main a tolerant and libertarian people who will see through all that UKIP crap.

 

Unlike the Scots who have a authoritarian streak and at the moment, apparently have a Leaderprincip infatuation with our own homegrown extremists."

 

You can't post something as ridiculous as the above and then call someone else out for doing the same. You seem to resort to reductio at Hitlerum quite a lot too.

[JamboX2]

We'll never get the above unless

i) The Westminster system is totally modernised and democratised

Or

ii) Independence is achieved.

Again I think that's too simplistic. You'd need to elect politicians wanting to give us a more democratic, open and less controlled society. The SNP didn't offer that through independnece. Their idea of more democracy wasn't engagement or a fairer voting system or more local power, it was removal of the UK electorate from the concept of democracy in Scotland. That's not more direct and it's not a change to what we have now.

 

You will only get societal change by voting for those who offer it. Independence as offered was the same system with central government in Edinburh not London. And from the way Scotland's electorate votes we don't vote for parties who favour a more direct form of democracy (the Greens, SSP, LibDems) enough to give us that. Height of us voting for those parties was 2003. Now it's largely squeezed between two parties offering more of the same with wee differences in packaging.

[TheMaganator]

We'll never get the above unless

 

i) The Westminster system is totally modernised and democratised

 

Or

 

ii) Independence is achieved.

Who is offering what you seek if independence is achieved?

 

For it to happen in an independent Scotland there'd need to be demand for it. I don't see where that demand is coming from. It's not a reason to vote Yes.

[Guest Trapper John]

This post by you was equally stupid.

 

"The English do not vote for extremists in general elections. They are in the main a tolerant and libertarian people who will see through all that UKIP crap.

 

Unlike the Scots who have a authoritarian streak and at the moment, apparently have a Leaderprincip infatuation with our own homegrown extremists."

 

You can't post something as ridiculous as the above and then call someone else out for doing the same. You seem to resort to reductio at Hitlerum quite a lot too.

 

What's ridiculous about it? Too near the truth for you to tolerate? And you seem to know plenty about Hitlerum...

 

Labelling your political opponents as 'vermin' reeks of 'Hitlerum'.

[cosanostra]

What's ridiculous about it? Too near the truth for you to tolerate? And you seem to know plenty about Hitlerum...

 

Labelling your political opponents as 'vermin' reeks of 'Hitlerum'.

Are you maybe confusing me with someone else? I didn't label any political opponents as "vermin".

Your post was as poor as the other guys' and reeks of hypocrisy. You're clearly smart enough to understand why your post is nonsense so you must have been attempting to insult the other guy, Scots in general or yes voters.

I find your posts entertaining mostly but you look a little odd pointing the finger at others for doing exactly what you did earlier in the thread.

[scott_jambo]

Are you maybe confusing me with someone else? I didn't label any political opponents as "vermin".

Your post was as poor as the other guys' and reeks of hypocrisy. You're clearly smart enough to understand why your post is nonsense so you must have been attempting to insult the other guy, Scots in general or yes voters.

I find your posts entertaining mostly but you look a little odd pointing the finger at others for doing exactly what you did earlier in the thread.

 

 

 

He does have great quips tbf. Loving the nazi and Hitler ones on this thread thus far. 

Edited January 2, 2015 by scott_jambo

[cosanostra]

 

 

He does have great quips tbf. Loving the nazi and Hitler ones on this thread thus far.

True enough Scott. One of the funny JKB posters.

[scott_jambo]

True enough Scott. One of the funny JKB posters.

 

Yeah but not really though.

[cosanostra]

Yeah but not really though.

 

Sometimes. I started watching M.A.S.H again online because of his signature photo. Pretty funny. Thanks for that TJ.

[Don Draper]

What we really need is an Alex Salmond statue outside Tynecastle.

[Maroon Sailor]

What we really need is an Alex Salmond statue outside Tynecastle.

No room

[Rand Paul's Ray Bans]

What we really need is an Alex Salmond statue outside Tynecastle.

 

A joint statue with Mr Romanov plz, just to see the reaction of the foamers.

 

[jack D and coke]

Salmond is a PHM.

 

A statue fund would get my cash.

[JamboX2]

Could have a series of statues. Salmond, Robbo, Hartley, Rudi and Pressley. Hell, just get busts and have a hall of fame.

[jack D and coke]

Could have a series of statues. Salmond, Robbo, Hartley, Rudi and Pressley. Hell, just get busts and have a hall of fame.

Pressley??? Stop it!!!!

[JamboX2]

Pressley??? Stop it!!!!

Mock or not, your seethe is...

 

 

 

... No joke, chest thump aside he can do no wrong.

[jack D and coke]

Mock or not, your seethe is...

 

 

 

... No joke, chest thump aside he can do no wrong.

Pressley comes nowhere near Salmond as far as PHM go.

 

Salmond is a hero. Pressley is a snake.

[Ulysses]

This thread has gone a very long way off topic and run its course. I'll close it shortly, and we can get back to discussing the actual subject of the thread closer to polling day.

[Ulysses]

This thread has gone a very long way off topic and run its course. I'll close it shortly, and we can get back to discussing the actual subject of the thread closer to polling day.

 

 

On second thoughts, why close the discussion?  The thread has moved to become a general independence/devolution thread, so it's been merged into the overall thread for those subjects.

 

 

But leave out the Pressley chat, eh? 

[TheMaganator]

Pressley comes nowhere near Salmond as far as PHM go.

 

Salmond is a hero. Pressley is a snake.

PHM are establishment men.

 

Salmond is anti-establishment therefore not a PHM.

[The White Cockade]

PHM are establishment men.

 

Salmond is anti-establishment therefore not a PHM.

The only establishment club Scotland has had is/was Rangers

So PHM are Rangers fans then?

Anyway there is no such thing as a PHM

I prefer to be a Hearts supporter myself

This PHM trolling is really chronic and past its sell by date

[JamboX2]

On second thoughts, why close the discussion?  The thread has moved to become a general independence/devolution thread, so it's been merged into the overall thread for those subjects.

 

 

But leave out the Pressley chat, eh? 

I'll not raise our former glorious leader again... Was a joke anyway.

[Ulysses]

Anyway there is no such thing as a PHM

 

Sometimes there is.

 

"A fish is any member of a paraphyletic group of organisms that consist of all gill-bearing aquatic craniate animals that lack limbs with digits."

 

Just saying. 

 

 

Anyway, I think TheMaganator might be jesting just a tad with his references to "PHM". 

[The White Cockade]

Sometimes there is.

 

"A fish is any member of a paraphyletic group of organisms that consist of all gill-bearing aquatic craniate animals that lack limbs with digits."

 

Just saying. 

 

 

Anyway, I think TheMaganator might be jesting just a tad with his references to "PHM". 

so fishing is allowed

what has PHM jesting got to do with this debate?

[TheMaganator]

Vote yellow get blue says Murphy

 

http://m.stv.tv/news/scotland/305248-jim-murphy-voting-snp-could-leave-tories-in-power-at-westminster/

[The White Cockade]

Surely if you are worried about Scotland voting SNP but ending up getting a Tory Government

then you would have voted for Independence in the Referendum as that is the way to stop that nonsense

try listening to some opposing views before any future votes and we will help you avoid such schoolboy

errors in the future

[Ulysses]

so fishing is allowed

what has PHM jesting got to do with this debate?

My reference was to the occasion on which a number of PHM saw off an attempt at Hibs one upmanship by a fish - or more accurately, a Fish.

 

The reason why it is relevant to this debate is because it's my way of dropping a reminder into the discussion that (with literally an exception or two) we are all Hearts supporters here.

 

The people who remember that when debating independence and devolution tend to end up being the reasonable ones and making the valuable contributions to the debate.

 

The people who don't - on both sides of the argument - tend to be the ones who get extreme and unreasonable, and who look to find offence where there is none.

 

So no, fishing isn't allowed. You could nearly say it's a Gorgie Fish Bar.

[The White Cockade]

My reference was to the occasion on which a number of PHM saw off an attempt at Hibs one upmanship by a fish - or more accurately, a Fish.

 

The reason why it is relevant to this debate is because it's my way of dropping a reminder into the discussion that (with literally an exception or two) we are all Hearts supporters here.

 

The people who remember that when debating independence and devolution tend to end up being the reasonable ones and making the valuable contributions to the debate.

 

The people who don't - on both sides of the argument - tend to be the ones who get extreme and unreasonable, and who look to find offence where there is none.

 

So no, fishing isn't allowed. You could nearly say it's a Gorgie Fish Bar.

on form today Uly!

[Ulysses]

on form today Uly!

Thanks. [emoji23]

 

 

Passion for politics is good, but taking that to extremes isn't. We're a club with supporters of both sides and all angles of the independence and devolution debate. HMFC before politics, that's my view.

[TheMaganator]

Surely if you are worried about Scotland voting SNP but ending up getting a Tory Government

then you would have voted for Independence in the Referendum as that is the way to stop that nonsense

try listening to some opposing views before any future votes and we will help you avoid such schoolboy

errors in the future

 

You're in some mood today!

 

I vote Tory mate, so it doesn't bother me.

 

I and the rest of the '55' listened at length to your opposing views. Still voted No though

[The White Cockade]

 

You're in some mood today!

 

I vote Tory mate, so it doesn't bother me.

 

I and the rest of the '55' listened at length to your opposing views. Still voted No though

i'm always in a mood!

point still stands though

[flecktimus]

Vote yellow get blue says Murphy

http://m.stv.tv/news/scotland/305248-jim-murphy-voting-snp-could-leave-tories-in-power-at-westminster/

Old chestnut

[H2]

Here was me thinking it was all over.

[Boris]

Vote yellow get blue says Murphy

 

http://m.stv.tv/news/scotland/305248-jim-murphy-voting-snp-could-leave-tories-in-power-at-westminster/

 

I'm not really sure how he expects to get away with that.  It really is lowest common denominator stuff and, dare I say, "fear" politics.

 

If you look at the arithmetic, he is talking nonsense.  

 

Let us assume that the Tories keep their one Scottish seat, but make no further gains.  Extremely plausible, I'd say.

 

So, for the Tories to win outright, they will need to win in the rest of the UK, namely England and Wales.  If they do this, it doesn't matter whether the Scots vote for Labour or the SNP as the Tories would have a majority anyway.  If the Scottish seats were to count, then it would mean that the Tories hadn't won enough in England & Wales to win an overall majority.

 

Therefore, Murphy is slavering.

[jambo1185]

Not really on topic, but following on from Boris' slavering comment above, Andy Burnham was also at it this morning, talking about there being "4 months to save the NHS".

 

Unfortunately for him, he was made to look like a total idiot and completely floundered when it was pointed out to him that "5% private outsourcing when you left power in 2010 to 6% now is hardly a wholescale privatisation is it?"

 

Health is devolved up here anyway, but given none of the Big 3 are really proposing any funding increases that will make much difference to the NHS in England and Wales (and Labour's spending pledges are below the Tories as I understand it anyway), and only the Greens out of all the mainstream parties want to legislate against private companies working within the NHS in any capacity, the NHS really shouldn't be an issue in this campaign because there isn't anything between what is being offered, but of course all 3 (and no doubt the "others" as well) will try to make it so.

 

Looks like plenty of slavering from Labour around the UK as we go forward.

 

Also, UKIP now projected to get zero seats on latest polling data, despite a voting share of between 15 to 17%, even at a best chance they might get six, will this stop the Tory/UKIP coalition nonsense? I'm guessing no.

[Don Draper]

Not really on topic, but following on from Boris' slavering comment above, Andy Burnham was also at it this morning, talking about there being "4 months to save the NHS".

 

Harsh, man.

[Boris]

Harsh, man.

 

I suspect jambo1185 is referring to my comment that Murphy was slavering, and not meaning that I was slavering.

 

I think so anyway!

[jambo1185]

I suspect jambo1185 is referring to my comment that Murphy was slavering, and not meaning that I was slavering.

 

I think so anyway!

 

Haha sorry Boris, yes that it what I meant!

[Boris]

Haha sorry Boris, yes that it what I meant!

 

Hahaha...I'm sure I've been prone to a slaver or two in the past, so it was fifty-fifty!

[Coco]

Had heard a few months ago that this guy was going with strong pressure from Whitehall.  But obviously has been given a 'decent' amount of time.  Hopefully the next Permanent Secretary will not see the job as being the civil service arm of the Government.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/civil-service-chief-sir-peter-housden-to-quit-1-3662482

 

Or as a means to inflict this drivel on his staff.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/sir-peter-housden-s-journal-published-online-1-2754697

http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/political-news/civil-service-chief-nets-blogging-fans.15714334

[Ulysses]

 

In 2011 the Swiss central bank moved to stop the appreciation of the Swiss franc against the euro, as its exports were threatened by the collapse in the single currency during the euro zone crisis and the boost its own currency was receiving from so-called safe haven flows.

 

To achieve this it imposed a currency cap of 1.20 Swiss francs vs the euro, which required it to commit to buying an almost unlimited amount of euros and to face down any major Soros-like speculators that wished to test its mettle. See the similarity to the scenario you painted? Except we're talking a real scenario of 8 million (switzerland) people vs 330 million (a ratio of 1:41) instead of 5 million (Scotland) vs 58 million (rUK) or a ratio of 1:11.

 

Now the Swiss policy was not without its risk, but they were able to pull it off by essentially printing their way to the outcome they desired. Print Swissies, sell them, buy euros. Rinse and repeat.

 

While they were forced to buy billions of euros they didn't necessarily want, they were able to maintain their currency cap, protect their exporters access to their largest market and in turn preserve their wider economy, and now - that the darkest days of the euro zone crisis appear to be behind us - they should actually be making money as the euro starts to appreciate and they sell down their holdings.

 

Now, there may of course be differences in how the market would respond to a newly independent country with a freshly-minted currency trying the same trick. This is obviously an extreme example. But it does shown that even relatively small countries retain a large degree of control over their currency when they're a) relatively wealthy and control their own printing presses.

 

But Scotland couldn't do it because...

 

I see this week that the Swiss Central Bank has abandoned the effort to hold the Swiss Franc at 1.20 to the euro.  In one day, the Swiss Franc soared so that the euro could only buy 0.80 Swiss Francs.  Since then the euro recovered to 1.04.  So in one day the euro dropped against the Franc by over 30%, and then in another day it bounced up by over 25%. 

 

So much for relatively small countries retaining a large degree of control over their currency.

 

Here's the BBC story:

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-30829917

 

 

Here's a page explaining the economics behind it, but without going into jargon.

 

http://qz.com/327410/absolutely-everything-you-need-to-understand-what-happened-to-the-swiss-franc-this-week/

 

 

And another short page with a simple message - when one of the currency big guns changes the rules of the game, a small country will find it impossible not to go along with those changes.

 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/chriswright/2015/01/15/why-the-swiss-franc-shot-up-30-in-a-morning/

[Ulysses]

^^^^

 

tl;dr version:

 

The SNP's strategy was wrong all along.  They should have cleared up all of the issues that people wanted addressed - not just currency - between 2011 and 2014, and then had the referendum.  If they'd done that, the result might well have been different, and Scotland might well be on the way to independence within 14 months. 

 

It was a lost opportunity.

[Boris]

^^^^

 

tl;dr version:

 

The SNP's strategy was wrong all along. They should have cleared up all of the issues that people wanted addressed - not just currency - between 2011 and 2014, and then had the referendum. If they'd done that, the result might well have been different, and Scotland might well be on the way to independence within 14 months.

 

It was a lost opportunity.

If we assume that independence is the raison d'etre of the SNP, then would it be too harsh to have expected them to have had all this sorted at the drop of a hat? Totally agree,with your comment.