Scottish independence and devolution superthread

[Dazo]

5 minutes ago, Gundermann said:

 

Can't see that happening. Abla need all the support they can get. Doubt they will get it though.

 

So different groups of people who all want the same thing won’t come together to further that cause ? And you want these clowns to create and run an independent Scotland ? 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 

[JudyJudyJudy]

13 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Sturgeon to be embarrassed in court?

And go to jail ! Unlikely I know 

[TallPaul]

6 minutes ago, windsor1874 said:

I never said these things don't matter, I just said they're not the be all and end all. They have weight, in the same way the desire to be more democratic has some weight.

 

As for "functioning economy" lol. That's a laugh.

6th largest economy in the world. But as you said who needs things like that when we can get one over the English eh.

[Mikey1874]

I am curious about the timing.

 

Is the Alba strategy to cause trouble for the SNP.

[TallPaul]

45 minutes ago, That thing you do said:

 

But thats not the point though is it? Has there been enough change to justify a vote? Yes, in every definition of the phrase "change of circumstances". 

 

Whether people want independence will be what is decided at the referendum.  No is a legitamite second result. Im just arguing that Scotland has the right to be asked and that conditions to be asked have been met.

 

The result is the peoples to decide.

 

 

What are the change of circumstances you refer to? Surely the world changes and therefore governments react to change constantly.

 

How often to you propose we check the question? Every Thursday? Monthly? Yearly? Every decade?

[Boris]

3 hours ago, TallPaul said:

Yeah why would people care about savings, investments, their jobs, pensions and a functioning economy. 

 

In what we do we not have a democratic electoral system? Out with the house of lords which I do think we should reform we all get to vote and elect our MPs to parliament.

 

 

 

First past the post for Westminster grossly over represents certain parties, e.g. The Tories, The SNP.

 

IMO, the HoC should reflect the general will of the people e.g. if 40% of the vote went to your party then you get 40% of the seats.

 

The system used for Holyrood by and large reflects votes cast with seats given, and also allows the constituency link.  Far more democratic, again IMO.

 

 

[Boris]

2 hours ago, periodictabledancer said:

Based on what ?

Scotland does not vote in majority terms for Labour or Tory. In fact it barely votes for either party at all. All PR might do is swap one unionist govt (Tory) for another (Labour). Scotland will STILL get a govt that is totally unrepresentative of it's democratically expressed wish. 

 

Perhaps people who, like me, would for for indy due to the archaic UK political system, would give this new system a chance?  Would maybe vote for other parties than pro-indy ones knowing their vote would literally count.

[Boris]

9 minutes ago, Dazo said:

So different groups of people who all want the same thing won’t come together to further that cause ? And you want these clowns to create and run an independent Scotland ? 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 

 

You do realise there would be elections in an independent Scotland?

[Dazo]

3 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

You do realise there would be elections in an independent Scotland?

Of course I do Boris but that doesn’t really change the choice of clowns we have to pick from. I also think it’s fair to assume the snp will do well initially in this newly create utopia.  

[Dazo]

10 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Perhaps people who, like me, would for for indy due to the archaic UK political system, would give this new system a chance?  Would maybe vote for other parties than pro-indy ones knowing their vote would literally count.

Fair play Boris I didn’t really think this was a thing, a change of voting system could pull people away from full independence. I think it further dilutes the strength of the argument about the will of the Scottish people. 

[TallPaul]

7 minutes ago, windsor1874 said:

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?most_recent_value_desc=false

 

31st highest GDP per capita according to the World Bank. At least TRY and get your facts right lads.

The top 10 largest economies in the world in 2023

10 Largest Economies In The World 2023

Which are the top 5 GDP countries in the world? The US, China, Japan, Germany, and India, respectively, hold those positions in 2023.

Now, let’s take a look at the top 10 largest economies/ richest countries in the world in 2023, sourced from IMF data (as of October 16, 2023):

Rank & Country	GDP (USD billion)	GDP Per Capita (USD thousand)
#1 United States Of America (U.S.A)	26,954	80.41
#2 China	17,786	12.54
#3 Germany	4,430	52.82
#4 Japan	4,231	33.95
#5 India	3,730	2.61
#6 United Kingdom (U.K.)	3,332	48.91

[Boris]

5 minutes ago, Dazo said:

Fair play Boris I didn’t really think this was a thing, a change of voting system could pull people away from full independence. I think it further dilutes the strength of the argument about the will of the Scottish people. 

 

Not sure it dilutes the will of the people as such.

 

Give me choices and I'll choose.  If it is a binary choice, then it's going to be a or b.

 

Nuance is sadly missing from a lot of our politics these days (blame on both sides!)

[Boris]

Just now, Boris said:

 

Not sure it dilutes the will of the people as such.

 

Give me choices and I'll choose.  If it is a binary choice, then it's going to be a or b.

 

Nuance is sadly missing from a lot of our politics these days (blame on both sides!)

 

Also add compromise and pragmatism!

[Unknown user]

40 minutes ago, TallPaul said:

What are the change of circumstances you refer to? 

 

 

[Japan Jambo]

41 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

I am curious about the timing.

 

Is the Alba strategy to cause trouble for the SNP.

 

SNP seem more interested in Palestinian independence than Scottish independence. Alba are genuinely focussed on getting the job done; Alex Salmond is a once in a generation politician but instead of rallying behind/beside him the SNP/Greens would rather debate what sign we ought to hang outside the toilet door. Either way it looks awfully like the next election will hand the SNP their arses, so unless another vehicle can be found to carry water for the cause that'll be that for a while to come.

[periodictabledancer]

2 hours ago, windsor1874 said:

I think you're getting my point confused. I'm an independence supporter, because FPTP voting system and the house of lords is a joke. I think changing to a PR system would satisfy a lot of people's desire for more local decision making. But won't happen

I'm not confusing anything. 

I'm asking you why you think a switch to PR will deflate the enthusiasm for independence because I've not heard  a single voice in my 60+ years that ever suggested that's REALLY what the Scottish people want. Rather , it's what you want and you're extrapolating that to the general population. But I'm happy to be educated on the matter. 

Edited November 30, 2023 by periodictabledancer

[Carter]

4 minutes ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

SNP seem more interested in Palestinian independence than Scottish independence. Alba are genuinely focussed on getting the job done; Alex Salmond is a once in a generation politician but instead of rallying behind/beside him the SNP/Greens would rather debate what sign we ought to hang outside the toilet door. Either way it looks awfully like the next election will hand the SNP their arses, so unless another vehicle can be found to carry water for the cause that'll be that for a while to come.

You have to wonder about Humza and what's important to him. You also have to wonder about what type of society allows a leadership process to be subject to evident gerrymandering whilst Police Scotland wilfully stand back and allow the inauguration of the continuity candidate before they start the arrest process in a criminal investigation process.

 

No idea how that was allowed to unfold. Unless of course the Chief Constable did as he was told by the Chief Mammy. That being the same Chief Constable who previously met with the Fuhrer and Justice Minister in Bute House in a meeting that wasn't minuted. 

[manaliveits105]

Loopy Lorna feckin up again for the SG 

 

Lorna Slater's circular economy plans 'lack financial credibility and transparency'

In a damning report, Holyrood's Finance Committee warns Scottish Government legislation to improve recycling and reuse doesn't contain accurate cost estimates.

[TallPaul]

37 minutes ago, windsor1874 said:

Do you understand what per capita means? 

 

Jesus god! Am I actually going to have to spell out what per capita means to an adult.

 

Doesn't make any sense. By your logic you'd be better off living in India or China. 

I didn't mention capita I was speaking about size of our economy. You decided my facts were wrong because you decided to introduce capita. 

 

[TallPaul]

33 minutes ago, ǝǝɥʇᴉɯS said:

 

 

Intelligent input again from kickbacks top republican 

[TallPaul]

Just now, windsor1874 said:

So that's a no then. You don't understand it's relevance. Glad you cleared that up

I know exactly what I means I was never talking about it in the first place. 

[Japan Jambo]

3 minutes ago, windsor1874 said:

I feel like I'm losing brain cells by even trying to show you how illogical your argument is so there's no point. Adiós.

 

Careful, not sure you have that many spare.😁

[TallPaul]

13 minutes ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

Careful, not sure you have that many spare.😁

🤣

[Carter]

17 minutes ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

Careful, not sure you have that many spare.😁

 

[Carter]

46 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

Loopy Lorna feckin up again for the SG 

 

Lorna Slater's circular economy plans 'lack financial credibility and transparency'

In a damning report, Holyrood's Finance Committee warns Scottish Government legislation to improve recycling and reuse doesn't contain accurate cost estimates.

In any other era or in any other civilised democracy someone who had acted with the recklessness and stupidity that Slater has shown would've had the dignity to resign. If they didn't resign they would be sacked. Instead we've seen her hang on when her position was entirely untenable. We've witnessed a similarly untenable situation unfold with Matheson. She's also caused this egregious waste of public money masquerading as a Bank (SNIB - The Bank which isn't actually a Bank and holds no Banking licence 😂) to take a huge bath on the £9M loan facilities extended to Circularity Scotland Ltd.

 

The SNP simply do as they please and believe there will be no consequences. When they lose more than 50% of their MPs at the election, which seems highly probable, this type of moon howling nonsense about another Referendum is going to have significantly less traction than it has at present. 

 

The most compelling case that could be made for cessation would be perform competently in the areas devolved to Scottish Parliament. There's no evidence the SNP have overseen any competence in any area devolved responsibility. Whether that's by accident or design, who knows. All they bark on about is the absence of levers and powers. The aforementioned Circularity Scotland loan cluster****/BiFAB/Gupta Gtee/Ferguson Shipyard et al should be a sobering reminder as to why these clowns should never be allowed full fiscal autonomy. Country would be bankrupt within weeks.

[Dazo]

Imagine(or not) the circle jerk if Loopy Lorna was part of the UK government. 😂

[Japan Jambo]

3 minutes ago, Dazo said:

Imagine(or not) the circle jerk if Loopy Lorna was part of the UK government. 😂

 

Never thought I'd see Lorna Slater and circle jerk in the same sentence.

 

[Dazo]

4 minutes ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

Never thought I'd see Lorna Slater and circle jerk in the same sentence.

 

Takes all sorts JJ. 

[Boris]

39 minutes ago, Carter said:

In any other era or in any other civilised democracy someone who had acted with the recklessness and stupidity that Slater has shown would've had the dignity to resign. If they didn't resign they would be sacked. Instead we've seen her hang on when her position was entirely untenable. We've witnessed a similarly untenable situation unfold with Matheson. She's also caused this egregious waste of public money masquerading as a Bank (SNIB - The Bank which isn't actually a Bank and holds no Banking licence 😂) to take a huge bath on the £9M loan facilities extended to Circularity Scotland Ltd.

 

The SNP simply do as they please and believe there will be no consequences. When they lose more than 50% of their MPs at the election, which seems highly probable, this type of moon howling nonsense about another Referendum is going to have significantly less traction than it has at present. 

 

The most compelling case that could be made for cessation would be perform competently in the areas devolved to Scottish Parliament. There's no evidence the SNP have overseen any competence in any area devolved responsibility. Whether that's by accident or design, who knows. All they bark on about is the absence of levers and powers. The aforementioned Circularity Scotland loan cluster****/BiFAB/Gupta Gtee/Ferguson Shipyard et al should be a sobering reminder as to why these clowns should never be allowed full fiscal autonomy. Country would be bankrupt within weeks.

All governments run their time. Thatcher, Blair/Brown, too many too mention from 2010!

 

Equally applies to the SNP now at Holyrood. 

 

Next Holyrood election will be very, very interesting. Could SNP & Labour be grown up enough to form a coalition?

 

Edit: do not disagree re the greens btw. It's not the policy per se, it's the half arsed implementation that dooms it. Really basic stuff.

Edited November 30, 2023 by Boris

[Gundermann]

3 hours ago, Dazo said:

So different groups of people who all want the same thing won’t come together to further that cause ? And you want these clowns to create and run an independent Scotland ? 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 

 

There were pro-Union groups/ parties who didn't join Better Together. And no, I don't want clowns of any party to run Scotland. I'd, probably, be content with a socialist party or at least one based on a lot of 'old Labour' principles.

[That thing you do]

3 hours ago, TallPaul said:

What are the change of circumstances you refer to? Surely the world changes and therefore governments react to change constantly.

 

How often to you propose we check the question? Every Thursday? Monthly? Yearly? Every decade?

When Scotland itelf voted Yes to remain in the EU but the whole Uk vote was out, thats a material change in circumstances but I think you know that.

 

Its valid to put the question when Scotland is at odds with England and Wales on something so fundamental.

[TallPaul]

21 minutes ago, That thing you do said:

When Scotland itelf voted Yes to remain in the EU but the whole Uk vote was out, thats a material change in circumstances but I think you know that.

 

Its valid to put the question when Scotland is at odds with England and Wales on something so fundamental.

Scotland didn't vote. The UK voted and we all got our say. It wasn't Scotland voting.

 

Anyway Scotland leaving the EU would have happened in 2014 but wasn't seen as an issue then by the Nats 

[Unknown user]

2 hours ago, TallPaul said:

Intelligent input again from kickbacks top republican 

 

You asked the stupidest question possible, were we meant to take it seriously?

[TallPaul]

1 minute ago, ǝǝɥʇᴉɯS said:

 

You asked the stupidest question possible, were we meant to take it seriously?

I wanted to hear you whine like a little bitch you are over losing your EU membership 👍

[Unknown user]

15 minutes ago, TallPaul said:

I wanted to hear you whine like a little bitch you are over losing your EU membership 👍

 

That's not very nice.

 

You should have asked me if you wanted me to respond though, you're lucky I happened by!

[Japan Jambo]

25 minutes ago, That thing you do said:

When Scotland itelf voted Yes to remain in the EU but the whole Uk vote was out, thats a material change in circumstances but I think you know that.

 

Its valid to put the question when Scotland is at odds with England and Wales on something so fundamental.

 

UK wide vote on a UK wide issue, but I think you know that.

 

as for Brexit; I didn't much care for that outcome myself but I accept that even though London (where I live) and Scotland (where I was born and brought up) voted to stay, the nation as a whole voted to leave. Democracy means accepting the outcome of an election/referendum even when the result goes against you. If the momentum was there to re-join, the EU were willing and enough of the population were prepared to back re-joining in some form then who knows? Seems analogous with IndyRef 2; the starting point would be a sizeable number in favour, which ironically, despite a hugely unpopular WM government still doesn't exist beyond the odd occasional poll in the National. 

 

[periodictabledancer]

4 hours ago, Boris said:

 

Perhaps people who, like me, would for for indy due to the archaic UK political system, would give this new system a chance?  Would maybe vote for other parties than pro-indy ones knowing their vote would literally count.

What would PR give you that FPTP doesn't ? A Labour government? 

I'm assuming you want a Labour govt for arguments sake. 

[That thing you do]

1 hour ago, TallPaul said:

Scotland didn't vote. The UK voted and we all got our say. It wasn't Scotland voting.

 

Anyway Scotland leaving the EU would have happened in 2014 but wasn't seen as an issue then by the Nats 

The UK Voted as a whole

Scotland as a constituent part showed itself to be at odds with England and Wales. 

The skulduggery since to give NI various concessions also hurt Scotland.

If you dont think those are reasonable grounds to have the right to ask the question again, theres something wrong.

[That thing you do]

52 minutes ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

UK wide vote on a UK wide issue, but I think you know that.

 

as for Brexit; I didn't much care for that outcome myself but I accept that even though London (where I live) and Scotland (where I was born and brought up) voted to stay, the nation as a whole voted to leave. Democracy means accepting the outcome of an election/referendum even when the result goes against you. If the momentum was there to re-join, the EU were willing and enough of the population were prepared to back re-joining in some form then who knows? Seems analogous with IndyRef 2; the starting point would be a sizeable number in favour, which ironically, despite a hugely unpopular WM government still doesn't exist beyond the odd occasional poll in the National. 

 

I think you know you are playing semantics. The vote in Scotland favored remain, which puts Scots at political odds with England and Wales. That is a democratic deficit for a country to be pulled against its expressed preference by another. This is of course where the unionist uses "This country" to mean the UK  And this is where I differ from you. Scotland is a country and an ancient nation, you dont see it that way when it suits, such as to accept any outcome of UK wide voting as "the will of the people" as opposed to "The will of England" which is what it actually is.

[Malinga the Swinga]

Amazing how the will of a vote has to be accepted when it suits the nationalists yet it can be ignored when it doesn't.

We had an independence vote and the majority chose to stay in UK, partly due to the complete lack of a credible economic alternative by those who wished to separate.

Since the day result announced, the independence supporters have acted like spoilt bitches, totally unwilling to accept they failed to convince Scotland to vote with them.

The EU vote was a completely separate vote and whilst I believe wrong decision made, that's democracy for you and we need to move on.

[Boris]

46 minutes ago, periodictabledancer said:

What would PR give you that FPTP doesn't ? A Labour government? 

I'm assuming you want a Labour govt for arguments sake. 

It would reflect the real political feeling in the country.

That must surely be a good thing?

Fptp discriminates against parties that do well in total, but not in individual constituencies. Effectively making your vote pointless.

[i wish jj was my dad]

9 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

Amazing how the will of a vote has to be accepted when it suits the nationalists yet it can be ignored when it doesn't.

We had an independence vote and the majority chose to stay in UK, partly due to the complete lack of a credible economic alternative by those who wished to separate.

Since the day result announced, the independence supporters have acted like spoilt bitches, totally unwilling to accept they failed to convince Scotland to vote with them.

The EU vote was a completely separate vote and whilst I believe wrong decision made, that's democracy for you and we need to move on.

Or we could be responsible and pragmatic. If there is an economic or some other necessity to revisit a decision that is causing harm to the national interest we should be grown up enough to do that. 

For me, Brexit most definitely needs to be revisited.

If a  Labour government treats the devolved administrations with the same contempt as the Johnson,Truss and to a lesser extent Sunak administration has then I would be inclined to think the same for independence. I don't think they will mind. 

[Don Dan]

[Don Dan]

Is it normal that politicians are sexually incontinent as well as incompetent. They all seem to be at it😍 

Edited November 30, 2023 by Don Dan

[Konrad von Carstein]

2 hours ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

UK wide vote on a UK wide issue, but I think you know that.

 

as for Brexit; I didn't much care for that outcome myself but I accept that even though London (where I live) and Scotland (where I was born and brought up) voted to stay, the nation as a whole voted to leave. Democracy means accepting the outcome of an election/referendum even when the result goes against you. If the momentum was there to re-join, the EU were willing and enough of the population were prepared to back re-joining in some form then who knows? Seems analogous with IndyRef 2; the starting point would be a sizeable number in favour, which ironically, despite a hugely unpopular WM government still doesn't exist beyond the odd occasional poll in the National. 

 

Not specifically aimed at you, however, several posters have taken this and run with it based on the recent poll, which was carried out by IPSOS, not by the effing National petitioning it's readership.

 

[Konrad von Carstein]

1 hour ago, That thing you do said:

The UK Voted as a whole

Scotland as a constituent part showed itself to be at odds with England and Wales. 

The skulduggery since to give NI various concessions also hurt Scotland.

If you dont think those are reasonable grounds to have the right to ask the question again, theres something wrong.

A point that is always overlooked...

[Unknown user]

1 hour ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

Amazing how the will of a vote has to be accepted when it suits the nationalists yet it can be ignored when it doesn't.

We had an independence vote and the majority chose to stay in UK, partly due to the complete lack of a credible economic alternative by those who wished to separate.

Since the day result announced, the independence supporters have acted like spoilt bitches, totally unwilling to accept they failed to convince Scotland to vote with them.

The EU vote was a completely separate vote and whilst I believe wrong decision made, that's democracy for you and we need to move on.

 

How was the independence vote ignored exactly? It was a No  and we're still dependent, the vote was carried through.

 

What you're moaning about is that the democratic conversation hasn't gone away, because you're fine with how things are. Who's the spoilt bitch?

Edited November 30, 2023 by ǝǝɥʇᴉɯS

[Don Dan]

Posted this here as not sure which is the best thread. This needs exposed to all. 
 

[periodictabledancer]

58 minutes ago, Don Dan said:

Posted this here as not sure which is the best thread. This needs exposed to all. 
 

"Currently the UK market for heat pumps does not exist at sufficient scale".....

 

not helped by UK media paltforming gobshytes & interest groups who've staright up lied about heat pumps.

 And the lack of will by manufacturers to move to this technology. 

[periodictabledancer]

1 hour ago, ǝǝɥʇᴉɯS said:

 

How was the independence vote ignored exactly? It was a No  and we're still dependent, the vote was carried through.

 

What you're moaning about is that the democratic conversation hasn't gone away, because you're fine with how things are. Who's the spoilt bitch?

It was the unionists that ignored the 2014 referendum : Scotland was told "vote No" to stay in the EU.

And in 2016 that was ignored and Westminster impemented a non binding referendum result in direct contradiction of what they proclaimed in 2014. 

But the SNP ignored the 2014 outcome though. 

Edited November 30, 2023 by periodictabledancer