JamboX2 Posted September 13, 2014 Share Posted September 13, 2014 There is no point to devolution if all the governing party does is to mirror the policies of their Westminster party. That is where I believe that the Scottish Labour party have let themselves down since 2007 by not being "independent" in their thinking (possibly down to their Westminster overlords). The SNP have taken up some of the left of centre ground from Labour (effectively as social democrats), but have at least attempted to implement their own priorities, e.g. on tuition fees, nursery hours, abolition of bridge tolls A lot of what the SNP have done has been regressive in terms of cutting local services the poorest rely on, seeing educational attainment fall, seeing social mobility decline, seeing free personal care being slashed back to 15 minute flash visits of no real help. If we've seen anything since 2007 it's not been social democracy. It's been in line with the centre right of mainland Europe, sheltering the middle classes from the bad times and screwing the poorest out of services they needed most. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pistol1874 Posted September 13, 2014 Share Posted September 13, 2014 (edited) Deutsche Bank, that's the one that's domiciled in Frankfurt but has no problem operating in a foreign country that uses a different currency from its native land. How many of the currencies Deutsche Bank use are not backed by a central bank? Genuine question. Edited September 13, 2014 by Pistol1874 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RosscoC Posted September 13, 2014 Share Posted September 13, 2014 Trying to play into people's fears: money, food, fuel. Surely the next thing will be security. Looks like my prediction was right after seeing tomorrow disgraceful front page on the Sunday Telegraph. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToadKiller Dog Posted September 13, 2014 Share Posted September 13, 2014 Looks like my prediction was right after seeing tomorrow disgraceful front page on the Sunday Telegraph. Rather low as expected from the Telegraph , using dead soldiers and their families to make a point is a bit off . The old general sounds like something out of the old empire times . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriel Posted September 13, 2014 Share Posted September 13, 2014 Looks like my prediction was right after seeing tomorrow disgraceful front page on the Sunday Telegraph. Still think there will be something special in the coming days. Maybe BT will dust off Princess Anne for an emotional address on Wednesday night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red21 Posted September 13, 2014 Share Posted September 13, 2014 Jim Sillars quote in full... "The No camp fear mongering has had an effect on me ? instead of retiring on 19th. September, I am staying in. This referendum is about power, and when we get a Yes majority, we will use that power for a day of reckoning with BP and the banks. The heads of these companies are rich men, in cahoots with a rich English Tory Prime Minister, to keep Scotland?s poor, poorer through lies and distortions. The power they have now to subvert our democracy will come to an end with a Yes. BP, in an independent Scotland, will need to learn the meaning of nationalisation, in part or in whole, as it has in other countries who have not been as soft as we have forced to be. If it wants into the ?monster fields? in the areas west of Shetland, it will have to learn to bend the knee to a greater power ? us, the sovereign people of Scotland. We will be the masters of the oil fields, not BP or any other of the majors. If Bob Dudley thinks this is mere rhetoric, just let him wait. It is sovereign power that counts. We will have it, he will not. As for the Bankers. Your casino days, rescued by socialisation of your liabilities while you waltz off with the profits, will be over. You will be split between retail and investment, and if your greed takes the latter down, there will be no rescue. You believe in the market, in future you will live with its discipline. Fail will mean failure. As for Standard Life, it will be required by new employment laws to give two years warning of any redundancies, and reveal to the trade unions its financial reasons for relocation to any country outside of Scotland, and the costs involved. It has never crossed the minds of our compliant Unionist media, especially the BBC, to ask the Chief Executive what his costings are on his proposed moves. As for John Lewis, the question is whether the senior management consulted the ?partners? or took instructions from Cameron? Another question our supine BBC did not ask. There is now talk of boycott, and if it happens it will be a management own goal. What kind of people do these do these companies think we are? They will find out." Particularly interested in the new employment laws where two years warning of redundancy will be a requirement - is this a Yes campaign pledge - haven't heard it before - might have missed it though? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beats Posted September 13, 2014 Share Posted September 13, 2014 What a slavering ***** Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 Interesting figures. Why? They're not exactly news. Has this been calculated for rUK...... As an approximate rule of thumb anything in the fiscal arena that "swings" between Scotland and the rUK should be taken for calculation purposes to have about 10 times the statistical effect on Scotland than on the rUK. That's because of the relative size of their populations and economies, and as such it's not exactly surprising. Thus, if hydrocarbon revenues shift from London to Edinburgh, and the GDP from hydrocarbons is removed from the UK's sums and included with an independent Scotland, the industry is worth about 15% of the Scottish economy - and about 1.5% of the rUK's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 A lot of what the SNP have done has been regressive in terms of cutting local services the poorest rely on, seeing educational attainment fall, seeing social mobility decline, seeing free personal care being slashed back to 15 minute flash visits of no real help. If we've seen anything since 2007 it's not been social democracy. It's been in line with the centre right of mainland Europe, sheltering the middle classes from the bad times and screwing the poorest out of services they needed most. .... and what have the Westminster governments done since 2007 for rUK that has been better than what has been provided for Scottish residents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 Thanks Ulysses. Was the result of the last Irish general election predicted by polls? Yes, with quite a high degree of accuracy. There was a tendency for the polls to underestimate the Fianna F?il vote percentage a little and to correspondingly overestimate Sinn F?in's, because some Fianna F?il supporters just would not admit to voting for the party because of the extraordinary level of unpopularity of the Government following the bailout. But even so the understatement was within the poll margins of error. There were five polls published in the 5-6 days before the election, showing vote percentages for six parties/groups. Of the 30 vote percentages published, 29 were within the margin of error compared to the final result, and only one was outside. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 (edited) How many of the currencies Deutsche Bank use are not backed by a central bank? Genuine question. I don't know the answer to that. but Wiki might be able to help identify countries that Deutsche Bank may operate in that use parallel or substitute currencies. http://en.wikipedia....cy_substitution However, here's a scenario for Deutsche Bank that could happen in the event of a Yes vote. OK Schottland has voted Yes. We have ?10bn of assets/investments in the UK of which ?1bn are in Schottland. We do not want to put that or our clients at risk, therefore we must ensure that Schottland shares a currency with the rUK. David, Ed, Nick, Nigel, Boris et al. I know you said no to a currency union, but I think you should reconsider as it is the best solution for us as a business, our clients, and in your parties' interests for future donations. I'm sure that other financial organisations would agree with us. Edited September 14, 2014 by Footballfirst Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 I don't know the answer to that. but Wiki might be able to help identify countries that Deutsche Bank may operate in that use parallel or substitute currencies. http://en.wikipedia....cy_substitution However, here's a scenario for Deutsche Bank that could happen in the event of a Yes vote. OK Schottland has voted Yes. We have ?10bn of assets/investments in the UK of which ?1bn are in Schottland. We do not want to put that or our clients at risk, therefore we must ensure that Schottland shares a currency with the rUK. David, Ed, Nick, Nigel, Boris et al. I know you said no to a currency union, but I think you should reconsider as it is the best solution for us as a business, our clients, and in your parties interests for future donations. I'm sure that other financial organisations would agree with us. Ah yes. The bluff argument. To which HMG turns round and says, "don't worry, they are going to use the ? anyway. Maintains the demand for sterling and reduces the risk on our banking sector". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 Ah yes. The bluff argument. To which HMG turns round and says, "don't worry, they are going to use the ? anyway. Maintains the demand for sterling and reduces the risk on our banking sector". The risk to the rUK banking sector would be exactly the same as it is now. All the former "Scottish" banks will be registered in London, so how does that reduce the risk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 The risk to the rUK banking sector would be exactly the same as it is now. All the former "Scottish" banks will be registered in London, so how does that reduce the risk. The risk of currency union is divergence of fiscal policy, which has to happen to make a currency union work. Sterlingisation allows significant interest rate variance without any fiscal implications. In other words, if Scotland borrows money the interest rate it is charged has no impact on the UK, whereas in a currency union it does as there is mutual debt underwriting by the taxpayer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djf Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 That Telegraph front page is awful. Really are some shitty people making important decisions in this country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Draper Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 Crass, shameful stuff from the Telegraph. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrWinningSmith Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 The worst part about this campaign for me has been the amount of people that have never shown one bit of political knowledge in their lives now claiming to be experts. I have a few friends now that claim to be political heavyweights. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambo1185 Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 (edited) Crass, shameful stuff from the Telegraph. I was surprised by it too, but I've met a fair few people (usually older) who share Lord Dannat's view. However it doesn't seem like front page appropriate. Edited September 14, 2014 by jambo1185 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serge Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 The worst part about this campaign for me has been the amount of people that have never shown one bit of political knowledge in their lives now claiming to be experts. I have a few friends now that claim to be political heavyweights. I find the best part of this campaign has been the amount of people that have never shown one bit of political knowledge in their lives who have now become interested, engaged and excited about the issues involved and the best route for the future of the nation. It's a healthier political environment than it was and having to suffer a few blowhards is a small price to pay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambo1185 Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 I find the best part of this campaign has been the amount of people that have never shown one bit of political knowledge in their lives who have now become interested, engaged and excited about the issues involved and the best route for the future of the nation. It's a healthier political environment than it was and having to suffer a few blowhards is a small price to pay. Do you think turnout at the next elections will be anywhere near is referendum? I agree it's great we will get such a high % of engagement but I expect a huge heap to go back to not voting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pistol1874 Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 The risk of currency union is divergence of fiscal policy, which has to happen to make a currency union work. Sterlingisation allows significant interest rate variance without any fiscal implications. In other words, if Scotland borrows money the interest rate it is charged has no impact on the UK, whereas in a currency union it does as there is mutual debt underwriting by the taxpayer. And there's the issue. Scotland claims to want independence, but wants it underwritten by rUK. It's cake and eat it stuff which can't and isn't going to happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serge Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 Do you think turnout at the next elections will be anywhere near is referendum? I agree it's great we will get such a high % of engagement but I expect a huge heap to go back to not voting. I think the turnout at the next election is wholly dependent on the YES/NO vote. If we vote no, it wouldn't surprise me to see record low votes in the next Westminster elections. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RosscoC Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 Why would Scotland vote Yes and then not vote SNP? You'd be letting SNP off the hook and asking people who don't believe in them to deliver SNP promises. To all intents and purposes Yes are SNP and if Yes win they must be held to account in delivering all the benefits they claim there are to independence. What if you share the Greens or SSP vision for an independent Scotland, and not the SNP? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coco Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 Does anyone know what Deutsche Bank's position was on German reunification? Don't know but I guess that their position was that there were great opportunities for banking in creating a bigger union. In a broader sense I suspect that their economists thought that reunification was a great way to raise the living standards of the poorer areas of the new union. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pistol1874 Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 (edited) What if you share the Greens or SSP vision for an independent Scotland, and not the SNP? Then, judging on previous elections, you will be in a very small minority and even wilth a vote 12 times as powerful, will not get the Government you voted for. Edited September 14, 2014 by Pistol1874 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GhostHunter Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 Interesting quote from Lord West today. And former security minister Lord West warned that Britain and America could be forced to spy on Scotland, which will be considered an alien state. If Scotland doesn?t have the resources or wherewithal to guard against Islamic extremists who have returned from Syria and Iraq then the UK will have no choice but to treat Scotland as hostile. He said: ?From the moment they separate they become a foreign country. As far as MI6 is concerned, they?re aliens. They haven?t thought this through. It?s deeply worrying.? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivan Drago Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 What if you share the Greens or SSP vision for an independent Scotland, and not the SNP? Do you think either will get anywhere near parliament? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambo1185 Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 What if you share the Greens or SSP vision for an independent Scotland, and not the SNP? The Yes campaign confirmed people are being asked to vote on the white paper. Apparently the Green and SSP visions for independence are not relevant. No doubt they'll be given a spot on the negotiating team but I doubt they'll get much of a say. And of course, there is pretty much no chance either if those parties forming a majority government in Scotland anytime soon anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DETTY29 Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 Interesting quote from Lord West today. So there are what, 3 know Scots out of 500 UK extremists in Iraq / Syria. rUK should just go to UN and tell them Scotland is an extremist Islamic state and get a resolution for rUK and USA to bomb the shit out of us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DETTY29 Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 Interesting quote from Lord West today. So there are what, 3 know Scots out of 500 UK extremists in Iraq / Syria. rUK should just go to UN and tell them Scotland is an extremist Islamic state and get a resolution for rUK and USA to bomb the shit out of us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DETTY29 Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 Interesting quote from Lord West today. Oh well, UN Resolution for rUK and USA to bomb us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boab Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 Interesting quote from Lord West today. Let's not be naive here. They were bugging the German Chanellor's mobile ffs. This area of "government" does not have rules and,in certain instances,can't,in order to operate. Hostile? There are no goodies and baddies in that game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Sausage Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 Oh well, UN Resolution for rUK and USA to bomb us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shedjambo Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 The worst part about this campaign for me has been the amount of people that have never shown one bit of political knowledge in their lives now claiming to be experts. I have a few friends now that claim to be political heavyweights. The worst part about this campaign for me has been the amount of people that have never shown one bit of political knowledge in their lives now claiming to be experts. I have a few friends now that claim to be political heavyweights. Im worried about the sanity of the yes voters when the no vote is confirmed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nookie Bear Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 So it's shortsighted to look at Salmond/SNP post yes but not shortsighted to look at the next UK government post no? Shortsighted indeed. The entire YES campaign has its foundations in their desire to rid Scotland of Tories. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missed98 Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 Interesting quote from Lord West today. Oh ma sides......How low can it get !!!! What BT don't seem to get is that every time they come out with their ridiculous arguments, a few more people join the Yes side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willie wallace Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 Im worried about the sanity of the yes voters when the no vote is confirmed. It may also apply to the no voters if it is a yes.A lot of people will feel they have had a lot taken from them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GBJambo Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 Whatever way this will go it's going to leave a divided scotland. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboX2 Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 .... and what have the Westminster governments done since 2007 for rUK that has been better than what has been provided for Scottish residents. An improved grant and bursary system was set up for English students to get more poor children into university A better system of getting children straight from schools into apprenticeships Arguably introducing the pupil premium to give those poorer children a funding boost to support them at early stages in their education. Cancer Drugs fund in the English NHS The Welsh Government has shifted money from health to education to protect college budgets and they've reformed their local government to cut down on waste and multiplied services to focus on health and education UK Gov increased the minimum holiday entitlement from 4 to 5 weeks per annum Increased child tax credit and welfare program's had funding increased under Brown, this resulted in child poverty sharply dropping in 09-10 A right to demand flexible working for single parents who had children younger than 18 Increased nursery hours for children from the poorest and most disadvantaged backgrounds Those are targeted measures brought by government to help the worst off. I have no issues with universal services, but universalism without targeted services to assist the poorest creates a welfare state designed to help and preserve the status of the upper and middle classes and helps no one who needs that ladder up. Signs of this being the case is the increased child poverty in Scotland, a rise of health inequalities and a decline in social mobility in Scotland since 2007 and most of these have happened because colleges have seen cuts, because child care has not really been improved, because local government spending has been cut due to inflation out stripping the freeze and what it can raise and because they've not really done much in the NHS to address the health inequalities Scotland faces. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambogaza Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 These polls are incredible! Was out campaigning yesterday - still lots of undecideds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 These polls are incredible! Was out campaigning yesterday - still lots of undecideds. Do you think saying they are undecided is a nice way of telling you to piss off? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambogaza Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 Actually there wasn't that level of hostility. People genuinely curious about different issues and wanting answers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hasselhoff Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 Do you think saying they are undecided is a nice way of telling you to piss off? If a yes campaigner came round my house i would be in two minds: Either 1. Point out the flaws in their arguments therefore declaring myself as a no voter Or 2. Just agree with them and tell them I'm voting yes/undecided to avoid my house/car being vandalised after Friday As much as I would love to do the first, I'll opt with the second option as I know yes voters will never change their mind due to simple things like reality so there is no point trying Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GhostHunter Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 3. Don't answer the door. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMaganator Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/11094592/Concern-as-child-aged-three-registered-to-vote-in-referendum.html Children as young as 3 registered to vote in the referendum. Joy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 Actually there wasn't that level of hostility. People genuinely curious about different issues and wanting answers. Fair enough. I just know if it was me wandering round a town centre on a Saturday I would want to be getting on with my own business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GBJambo Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 If a yes campaigner came round my house i would be in two minds: Either 1. Point out the flaws in their arguments therefore declaring myself as a no voter Or 2. Just agree with them and tell them I'm voting yes/undecided to avoid my house/car being vandalised after Friday As much as I would love to do the first, I'll opt with the second option as I know yes voters will never change their mind due to simple things like reality so there is no point trying That's what I have been hearing from a lot of people when confronted by yes campaigners they are intimidated. They either agree withe them or just say they are undecided. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/11094592/Concern-as-child-aged-three-registered-to-vote-in-referendum.html Children as young as 3 registered to vote in the referendum. Joy Sounds like Sinn Fein in the 80s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMaganator Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 Sounds like Sinn Fein in the 80s. I hope their parents are put in the pokey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 I hope their parents are put in the pokey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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