Brandt Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 If the poll was based on stickers or posters in this neighbourhood, it would be cancelled thanks to apathy. The polling clerks would die of boredom long before tea-time. So...You cant bring yourself to say there is more Yes stickers or posters? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FWJ Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 That would depend on whether the UK was outside of both the EU and EFTA. If it was, then it would be outside of the EU customs union and therefore all EU trade would be subject to tariffs. The point is that what the UK does in relation to Europe will have an impact on Scotland, irrespective of whether it is in the EU or not. Would the UK leave the EU without first negotiating a free trade agreement? Would the EU let them have a free-trade agreement? Woulf EFTA allow them to join (they would, by an order of magnitude, be the biggest member and possibly destablise it). If the UK leaves the EU with no free trade agreement with anyone would you want to be in that UK - operating a seige economy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 Would the UK leave the EU without first negotiating a free trade agreement? Would the EU let them have a free-trade agreement? Woulf EFTA allow them to join (they would, by an order of magnitude, be the biggest member and possibly destablise it). If the UK leaves the EU with no free trade agreement with anyone would you want to be in that UK - operating a seige economy? Would the EU shit themselves at the possibility of losing the UK's membership, a la Cameron and Milliband? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FWJ Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 Would the EU shit themselves at the possibility of losing the UK's membership, a la Cameron and Milliband? No Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 No Funny that. You would think that the 2nd biggest net contributor wouldn't cause any kind of upheaval? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GhostHunter Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 Sorry for going off topic slightly - but what's the timeframe from Friday to "Independence Day" ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderstruck Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 So...You cant bring yourself to say there is more Yes stickers or posters? There are NO (as in none) posters, of any hue or persuasion, or stickers to be seen. Might not meet your expectations but there you have it. Incidentally, I recently had cause to detour through Govan (Sturgeon's constituency) and "No" stickers/posters greatly outnumbered "Yes" but, as almost everywhere else, the vast majority of windows, cars and people displayed no outward sign of allegiance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 Sorry for going off topic slightly - but what's the timeframe from Friday to "Independence Day" ? SNP claim negotiations can be completed by March 2016. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgiewave Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 Sorry for going off topic slightly - but what's the timeframe from Friday to "Independence Day" ? 23 March 2016. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GhostHunter Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 SNP claim negotiations can be completed by March 2016. So they will have 18 or months to appease the near 50% of the population who voted No ? Seems legit. [Edit] - with the elections coming up as well, the what if scenario - what if Labour get into power in scotland ? Can they revoke the referendum vote ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 So they will have 18 or months to appease the near 50% of the population who voted No ? Seems legit. And deal with negotiations with Westminster with an election due in May 2015. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FWJ Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 Funny that. You would think that the 2nd biggest net contributor wouldn't cause any kind of upheaval? Do you think we'll still be the 2nd biggest net contributor after the 'negotiations' that Dave is promising? I think there are plenty trying to push the European project forward that would be happy to see the back of such a reluctant member. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 Do you think we'll still be the 2nd biggest net contributor after the 'negotiations' that Dave is promising? I think there are plenty trying to push the European project forward that would be happy to see the back of such a reluctant member. That's the thing though. The EU is headed towards 30 countries. Its currency is surviving on the basis of a promise that hasn't yet been tested and is causing severe austerity in Southern Europe, driving youth unemployment to hideous levels. Is the EU fit for purpose? It doesn't seem to form part of the discussion for Scotland because the UK "might leave" is a scare story. Would you like to see a full-blown federal Europe and Scotland be a member of that federation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FWJ Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 That's the thing though. The EU is headed towards 30 countries. Its currency is surviving on the basis of a promise that hasn't yet been tested and is causing severe austerity in Southern Europe, driving youth unemployment to hideous levels. Is the EU fit for purpose? It doesn't seem to form part of the discussion for Scotland because the UK "might leave" is a scare story. Would you like to see a full-blown federal Europe and Scotland be a member of that federation? Yes, I think so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 Yes, I think so. Cool. So Brussels would have a power of veto over Scotland's budget in that instance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderstruck Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 SNP claim negotiations can be completed by March 2016. There is little chance of that target being met. There will be stalling as none of the UK parties are going to move on anything ahead of May 15. Indeed, the relationship with Scotland will be a campaign/voting issue and dealing quickly could, in all probability, be an electoral blunder. Thereafter, it would likely take at least 3 years to untangle the mechanisms of state and to set up new institutions. 2020 might be optimistic. The result, uncertainty. Uncertainty is anathema to business and investment and it is likely that a safety first decision to relocate or to invest in RUK would be forced on companies and investors. If I were investing in retail, I would consider Newcastle or Carlisle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FWJ Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 (edited) Cool. So Brussels would have a power of veto over Scotland's budget in that instance. Probably Frankfurt. But can The Fed or Washington veto a state's budget itn the US? Edited September 14, 2014 by FWJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 Probably Frankfurt. The difference between theory and practice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boab Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 Sorry for going off topic slightly - but what's the timeframe from Friday to "Independence Day" ? Absolutely mortal Friday....Saturday won't exist.....then back to work! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMaganator Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 Perhaps not an irrelevance, it obviously had to have substance, but the reality is, SNPcould be voted out , months before ever having the opportunity. Geoff, you seem quite well educated, how many White Papers ever follow through? Come on!!!! Salmond has said that he'll take a Yes vote as his mandate to negotiate on the terms of the White Paper. It will be the foundation of the newly independent Scotland. It could not be more relevant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderstruck Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 So they will have 18 or months to appease the near 50% of the population who voted No ? Seems legit. [Edit] - with the elections coming up as well, the what if scenario - what if Labour get into power in scotland ? Can they revoke the referendum vote ? If there is a Yes vote, I expect that there might well be a second ballot on the proposed arrangements for governing Scotland. It may be that the 2016 election will be taken as a proxy. The harsh reality is that the quick and simple route to "independence" is not there and the real nature of "independence" is not what is painted by "Yes". I have no doubt that there will be a lot of disaffected Yes Voters. What is it they say about a lover scorned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nookie Bear Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 A wee question to ask folk. In the street you live in and the surrounding streets / area. What would be the majority in yes/no posters in the windows of other residents? Ive taken fair bit of the Morningside area in and i'd say 10/4 in favour of yes, posters. Lots of folk with yes stickers/badges compared to very little no stickers/badges. Seen the YES stronghold above Pagan Osborne opposite the Hermitage Bar? Pictures of Thatcher, Cameron, Farage and Boris Johnson. Should we just start outlawing political parties we don't like? Bit pathetic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandt Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 Seen the YES stronghold above Pagan Osborne opposite the Hermitage Bar? Pictures of Thatcher, Cameron, Farage and Boris Johnson. Should we just start outlawing political parties we don't like? Bit pathetic. Haha i stay a few doors from him opposite the Waiting Room. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Beni of Gorgie Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 So they will have 18 or months to appease the near 50% of the population who voted No ? Seems legit. [Edit] - with the elections coming up as well, the what if scenario - what if Labour get into power in scotland ? Can they revoke the referendum vote ? They can't revoke it. Seems unlikely they would ever manage to hit the deadline either, particularly with a Westminster election, and almost certainly a different govt. Either way change is afoot, it is very difficult, EITHER way, to ignore 50% of the population Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators JKBMod 1 Posted September 14, 2014 Moderators Share Posted September 14, 2014 Members are reminded that we will not tolerate trolling or abuse, and your passions about this issue will not be accepted as an excuse for breaking the rules of JKB. We've had to delete many posts today because of abusive comments, and unfortunately some comments by other members that didn't break the rules had to be removed as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Beni of Gorgie Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 Salmond has said that he'll take a Yes vote as his mandate to negotiate on the terms of the White Paper. It will be the foundation of the newly independent Scotland. It could not be more relevant. It's unlikely in the event of a yes vote, but what if, SNP are not in power come May? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 Intrigued by Salmond saying a No vote ends this debate for a generation. If it is a narrow margin of 2% or less, why would it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriel Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 Intrigued by Salmond saying a No vote ends this debate for a generation. If it is a narrow margin of 2% or less, why would it? I would imagine politically more people would be swayed into voting 'Yes' now if they think they will be denied another opportunity for say twenty-five years. If it is a 'No', I'm sure he won't wait that length of time to agitate another debate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 I would imagine politically more people would be swayed into voting 'Yes' now if they think they will be denied another opportunity for say twenty-five years. If it is a 'No', I'm sure he won't wait that length of time to agitate another debate. Are there really people out there who want to wait till "next time" though? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriel Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 Are there really people out there who want to wait till "next time" though? We just don't know, do we? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Beni of Gorgie Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 Are there really people out there who want to wait till "next time" though? Everyone has a vote above 16. Some really couldn't care about the economics as they can't get worse for them. Then their are others with mortgages and pensions an then those with investments. It affects all society, not just those who live in our street Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrWinningSmith Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 (edited) A few people I have spoke to want independence but just not "Alex Salmond's vision for independence" so they are voting no. Edited September 14, 2014 by MrWinningSmith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimus Prime Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 A few people I have spoke to want independence but just not "Alex Salmond's vision for independence" so they are voting no. Where's the logic in that? The first Scottish General Election is the opportunity to shape the type of independence we want. Why can people not grasp that this is not about Alex Salmond? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderstruck Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 Everyone has a vote above 16. Some really couldn't care about the economics as they can't get worse for them. Then their are others with mortgages and pensions an then those with investments. It affects all society, not just those who live in our street "It can't get worse for them." Yes it can - both ways but by far the biggest risk has to be starting off down the separatist route without a map, a plan or any notion what we will be using for money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambo1185 Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 (edited) Where's the logic in that? The first Scottish General Election is the opportunity to shape the type of independence we want. Why can people not grasp that this is not about Alex Salmond? Negotiations and the constitution will have been completed by then (if the proposed timeline holds). Both to be carried out as per the white paper as the Yes campaign have themselves confirmed. Not everything will be able to be changed or undone by the government of the day. Edited September 14, 2014 by jambo1185 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboX2 Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 So they will have 18 or months to appease the near 50% of the population who voted No ? Seems legit. [Edit] - with the elections coming up as well, the what if scenario - what if Labour get into power in scotland ? Can they revoke the referendum vote ? The Scottish Election is in 2016, after Independence Day. The 2015 election will be held under the deal of the agreement that if yes wins that's it. Meaning no attempts to redo or undo the yes win. Yes winning on Friday means we will be independent on March 23rd 2016. 1st election will be May 5th 2016. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboX2 Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 So they will have 18 or months to appease the near 50% of the population who voted No ? Seems legit. [Edit] - with the elections coming up as well, the what if scenario - what if Labour get into power in scotland ? Can they revoke the referendum vote ? The Scottish Election is in 2016, after Independence Day. The 2015 election will be held under the deal of the agreement that if yes wins that's it. Meaning no attempts to redo or undo the yes win. Yes winning on Friday means we will be independent on March 23rd 2016. 1st election will be May 5th 2016. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davemclaren Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 I dropped out of this thread a long time back as I had my mind made up when Devo Max wasn't offered ( though it may have been resurrected in last week's Westminster panic ).. Anyway, sometimes the chickens just have to cross the road. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimus Prime Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 Negotiations and the constitution will have been completed by then (if the proposed timeline holds). Both to be carried out as per the white paper as the Yes campaign have themselves confirmed. Not everything will be able to be changed or undone by the government of the day. And those negotiations will be held by a group made up of representatives from across the political spectrum. Salmond has already extended this invitation to Darling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambo1185 Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 (edited) And those negotiations will be held by a group made up of representatives from across the political spectrum. Salmond has already extended this invitation to Darling. The written constitution has already been drafted. If you think the core team leading the negotiations will u-turn on key parts of the white paper because Darling or Davidson, or even Harvie, disagree with them I think you will be surprised. Harvie doesn't want a currency union. Do you think Salmond will decide to listen to him and not ask for one? Or do you think he'll stick with what he thinks is the best Plan A? And all of those that dont even want to be in Nato? Including those who let out a chorus of boos when the SNP changed their policy on this because "there is a referendum to be won"? Edited September 14, 2014 by jambo1185 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Stinkfinger Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 As a non voter. If I lived in Edinburgh I would vote Yes. If I lived anywhere else in Scotland it would be a No. As home to the parliament I believe the capital will of course be well looked after, the rest of the country will be left to rot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboX2 Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 The written constitution has already been drafted. If you think the core team leading the negotiations will u-turn on key parts of the white paper because Darling or Davidson, or even Harvie, disagree with them I think you will be surprised. Harvie doesn't want a currency union. Do you think Salmond will decide to listen to him and not ask for one? Or do you think he'll stick with what he thinks is the best Plan A? And herein lies the crux of the issues. Labour, Tory, Green, LibDem and Socialist will not want certain parts of the white paper. Be it EU, oil, NATO, currency etc. But this team Scotland is hard to get out of once it comes about. If you ain't in your a sitting duck in 2016. And so all join up, and if or when it goes tits up, Salmond can shelter behind "oh well we all failed to get it, let's just say it's London's fault and not mine for picking such a radge and narrow minded option..." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToadKiller Dog Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 Lord Robertson trying to do a rerun of the 70s and change the meaning of a majority . The old Roy Orbison Classic "running scared " comes to mind . http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobile/politics/referendum-news/ukip-and-robertson-narrow-yes-vote-may-not-mean-independence.25313695 While Gordon Brown find a UKIP/Tory coalition at Westminster preferable to an independent Scotland ( I wonder if his constituents would agree ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimus Prime Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 The written constitution has already been drafted. If you think the core team leading the negotiations will u-turn on key parts of the white paper because Darling or Davidson, or even Harvie, disagree with them I think you will be surprised. Harvie doesn't want a currency union. Do you think Salmond will decide to listen to him and not ask for one? Or do you think he'll stick with what he thinks is the best Plan A? Yes I do think a cross party group will review the draft constitution. Some amendments will be made, some won't. In terms of the example you stated. If that scenario pans out I suspect Harvie will be in the minority and I include rUK in that viewpoint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderstruck Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 Lord Robertson trying to do a rerun of the 70s and change the meaning of a majority . The old Roy Orbison Classic "running scared " comes to mind . http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobile/politics/referendum-news/ukip-and-robertson-narrow-yes-vote-may-not-mean-independence.25313695 While Gordon Brown find a UKIP/Tory coalition at Westminster preferable to an independent Scotland ( I wonder if his constituents would agree ) George Robertson is talking about challenges after the poll, likely on the basis of dirty deeds. That could cut both ways. It's Coburn that is taking about the meaning of "majority". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SE16 3LN Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 Why, in the event of a yes vote, are we waiting so long for Scotland to take control of their own affairs? A few weeks to work out an interim budget, from April 2015 Edinburgh takes control of all Scottish taxes and the complicate stuff negotiated over years. If Scotland really is the sixth richest country in the world it can happen quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgiewave Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 (edited) Why, in the event of a yes vote, are we waiting so long for Scotland to take control of their own affairs? A few weeks to work out an interim budget, from April 2015 Edinburgh takes control of all Scottish taxes and the complicate stuff negotiated over years. If Scotland really is the sixth richest country in the world it can happen quickly. Why not just declare indpendence? If things are going to remain civil, they should be properly negotiated and agreed by both parties, not dictated by Alex Salmond. Edited September 14, 2014 by Gorgiewave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maroon Sailor Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 (edited) . Edited September 14, 2014 by Maroon Sailor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maroon Sailor Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 I dropped out of this thread a long time back as I had my mind made up when Devo Max wasn't offered ( though it may have been resurrected in last week's Westminster panic ).. Anyway, sometimes the chickens just have to cross the road. On the subject of chickens My mind was made up when Salmond didn't call for a referendum straight away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudolf's Mate Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 (edited) As a non voter.If I lived in Edinburgh I would vote Yes. If I lived anywhere else in Scotland it would be a No. As home to the parliament I believe the capital will of course be well looked after, the rest of the country will be left to rot. I gather you're a big Game of Thrones fan Edited September 14, 2014 by Rudolf's Mate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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