Nookie Bear Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 Folk sticking Yes or No badges on their profile pictures is absolutely chronic chat. I don't think so. This is a momentous moment in Scotland's history and it is only natural some people want to show support for either side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djf Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 Rumoured that the majority of British telecoms companies will release a joint statement warning against independence. Whatever your views on the vote I'm sure the majority will find this pretty unsettling. Corporations should operate in the environment preferred by the people and using their influence to leverage this is a pretty slippery slope. It is weird to see right wing capitalists disavowing the all powerful free market and talking up the merits of the state's influence in regards finance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DETTY29 Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 (edited) I'm amazed that UK debt, (currently standing at ?1.4 trillion and set to rise to ?1.6 trillion) hasn't played more of a role during the referendum campaign. 60% of the austerity cuts have still to be implemented by Westminster and this will have huge effects on education, health and all public services. Meanwhile Westminster has agreed to spend ?100 billion on a new Trident weapons system. Also the unelected House of Lords with over 800 Lords who can all claim over ?300 per-day tax-free. Personally I think that it is a no brainer; we need a Yes vote not only for Scotland but to force the Westminster system to modernise for the benefit of all the people in the UK. The next UK GE will see the political parties scrape the bottom of the barrell in terms of benefit fraud and immigration being what is wrong with Great Britain. In the UK with an ageing population, none of us really pay enough tax, certainly to sustain an NHS and state pensions EU immigrants are a significant net benefit unless the decide to end their days here. Non EU - again during working lives is pretty much net/net, but asignificant deficit if they decide to stay. I'm sure tax evasion / tax avoidance across both the criminal world, corporates and super rich is c.?80bn per year. Last figure I can find was 2011 at ?69.9bn. Britain isn't really that Great. Well not unless we have a war. And in recent history a Labour led government was happy to lie to the UN to start one. And even the last time our sovereignity was breached with Falklands, we still managed to bomb the Belgrano outside the exclusion zone, heading aways from the Islands and against the wishes of the our Military Command. Being part of Great Britain certainly has it's disadvantages. Big isn't always beautiful. Insatiable appetite for greed yes, but beautiful, not so. Edited September 12, 2014 by DETTY29 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 Rumoured that the majority of British telecoms companies will release a joint statement warning against independence. Whatever your views on the vote I'm sure the majority will find this pretty unsettling. Corporations should operate in the environment preferred by the people and using their influence to leverage this is a pretty slippery slope. It is weird to see right wing capitalists disavowing the all powerful free market and talking up the merits of the state's influence in regards finance. I was actually wondering about telecoms. Was the plan to have a single coverage area? I know one of the reasons Norn Iron adopted 028 as an area code was to make it easier for an all Ireland local network even though the Republic has a different international code (+353). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Lyon Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 djf - so the businesses that support independence can have their say but non-supporting businesses can't? That's pretty democratic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusk_Till_Dawn Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 Rumoured that the majority of British telecoms companies will release a joint statement warning against independence. Whatever your views on the vote I'm sure the majority will find this pretty unsettling. Corporations should operate in the environment preferred by the people and using their influence to leverage this is a pretty slippery slope. It is weird to see right wing capitalists disavowing the all powerful free market and talking up the merits of the state's influence in regards finance. Considering that the success of independence depends entirely on economical factors, I'd say it's absolutely right that major companies should say where they stand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriel Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 Considering that the success of independence depends entirely on economical factors, I'd say it's absolutely right that major companies should say where they stand. Entirely? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusk_Till_Dawn Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 Entirely? Yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djf Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 djf - so the businesses that support independence can have their say but non-supporting businesses can't? That's pretty democratic. No I don't think businesses should speak out in favour of independence either. They should respect the concept of self-determination and carry on making money within the frame work that they exist in afterwards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djf Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 Considering that the success of independence depends entirely on economical factors, I'd say it's absolutely right that major companies should say where they stand. If the telecoms industry issued a statement next year to say that a vote for Labour in the 2015 GE would increase costs for customers would you approve? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Lyon Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 Fair enough but you didn't make that clear in your post on the matter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambo1185 Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 (edited) But if businesses know (or more likely believe) independence will lead to certain positive or negative outcomes is it not better for the public to know that so it can be factored into their decision? Whats the difference between business outlining cases for and against and politicians or celebrities or "experts"? If independence was going to increase or reduce my bills by, say 20%, id like to know that in advance (even if it wouldn't ultimately change my vote). Edited September 12, 2014 by jambo1185 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusk_Till_Dawn Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 If the telecoms industry issued a statement next year to say that a vote for Labour in the 2015 GE would increase costs for customers would you approve? Yes, as long as they were being honest. Otherwise the alternative is to trust what Labour (or any other political party) are telling you - and I don't think any of us on here are that dense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redm Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 I think JKB is the only virtual place I don't have some sort of Yes related logo attached or similar. I've got Yes posters in my window and I wear a Yes badge too. I want a Yes flag for my balcony for next week if I can get one. I waited until 100 days before the referendum and then just went all out, and I'd do more if I could. _________ And yes, Geoff, I felt the timing of the Orange Lodge meeting at HoC just 3 days prior to them visiting Edinburgh in order to contribute to BT campaign was quite relevant. Especially when the MP who tweeted it then lost his nerve and deleted it. Plus it's interesting, I'm sure many people didn't even know there was an official Commons branch of the Orange Lodge, I know I certainly didn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deesidejambo Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 Certainly a Yes vote next week will result in a major psychological schism in many people. In the event of a Yes vote, I can't see the No voters just accepting and getting on with it. I foresee civil disobedience and years of further disruption as the independence negotiations proceed, as well as the EU application, the currency negotiations etc. I'm sure many No voters will not be minded to help that process. Inthe case of "No" vote - many of the Yes voters will still see it as a victory, and a stepping stone for Independence further down the line, so I dont expect national schisms in this case. From my own perspective, I vote with my heart, and I'm proud to be British and would remain so - I can't help that and I'm not ashamed of it. My wife is English so both of us would become "foreigners" and would not take on Scottish nationality. I know thats our choice, but thats how we see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMaganator Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 I don?t get the argument that business should keep quiet. The only way to make a fully informed choice is by knowing the potential consequences of your vote ? be they good or bad. People want to know how the vote will affect them. The economy plays a huge part in that. There are so many accusations of scaremongering that the Yes camp can make before people will start to realise that they are at it. Committed Yes voters will vote that way regardless of the consequences ? we know that. For everyone else they should be given the details. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redm Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 I don?t get the argument that business should keep quiet. The only way to make a fully informed choice is by knowing the potential consequences of your vote ? be they good or bad. People want to know how the vote will affect them. The economy plays a huge part in that. There are so many accusations of scaremongering that the Yes camp can make before people will start to realise that they are at it. Committed Yes voters will vote that way regardless of the consequences ? we know that. For everyone else they should be given the details. And what are the potential consequences so far? As in real, actual consequences? Not media 'interpretations' of what will happen? What have we actually been told? Not an awful lot. Please share these details you speak of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 I think JKB is the only virtual place I don't have some sort of Yes related logo attached or similar. I've got Yes posters in my window and I wear a Yes badge too. I want a Yes flag for my balcony for next week if I can get one. I waited until 100 days before the referendum and then just went all out, and I'd do more if I could. _________ And yes, Geoff, I felt the timing of the Orange Lodge meeting at HoC just 3 days prior to them visiting Edinburgh in order to contribute to BT campaign was quite relevant. Especially when the MP who tweeted it then lost his nerve and deleted it. Plus it's interesting, I'm sure many people didn't even know there was an official Commons branch of the Orange Lodge, I know I certainly didn't. You are best leaving the DUPpers alone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimus Prime Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 Is there something wrong with that? Are you only allowed to take part in the campaigning if you have a vote? Better tell that guy who runs wings to delete his blog of thats the case. It's maybe an unfair generalisation but it does seem that as others have said independence is most supported among working class males Put it this way i wouldn't think it was right to travel down to England to try and tell people how to vote if roles were reversed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boaby Ewing Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 (edited) Guardian/ICM Poll has it still too close to call. No = 51 pct Yes = 49 pct Undecided = 17 pct http://www.theguardi...l-says-icm-poll Most polls presume a +/- 3 pct point margin of error, though they're saying they think it's one of the most accurate yet: "The Guardian/ICM poll is based on telephone interviews conducted between Tuesday and Thursday, the first such survey ICM has conducted during the campaign. "Previous polls suggesting that the race for Scotland could go to a photo-finish, have been based on internet-based surveys.In the UK-wide referendum on the Alternative Vote in 2011, a similar Guardian/ICM poll predicted the final outcome with remarkable accuracy." Edited September 12, 2014 by Dave de le Noir Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriel Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 Genuine question. Can the leaders of public organisations/bodies and charities voice their opinions as respective heads? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoJack Horseman Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 And what are the potential consequences so far? As in real, actual consequences? Not media 'interpretations' of what will happen? What have we actually been told? Not an awful lot. Please share these details you speak of. But something might happen. Haven't you heard? Obviously we were all under the impression that in the event of a Yes vote that we'd just get new passports and nothing else would change. These companies coming out and saying that there would have to be some logistical changes in the event of an independent Scotland is an absolute revelation to me. Never saw it coming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redm Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 You are best leaving the DUPpers alone. What do you mean? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chester™ Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 Guardian/ICM Poll has it still too close to call. No = 51 pct Yes = 49 pct Undecided = 17 pct http://www.theguardi...l-says-icm-poll Most polls presume a +/- 3 pct point margin of error, though they're saying they think it's one of the most accurate yet: "The Guardian/ICM poll is based on telephone interviews conducted between Tuesday and Thursday, the first such survey ICM has conducted during the campaign. "Previous polls suggesting that the race for Scotland could go to a photo-finish, have been based on internet-based surveys.In the UK-wide referendum on the Alternative Vote in 2011, a similar Guardian/ICM poll predicted the final outcome with remarkable accuracy." They have also suggested that 42% of Labour voters, in 2010, are voting Yes. What do you mean? Might want to check the news.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambo1185 Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 Certainly a Yes vote next week will result in a major psychological schism in many people. In the event of a Yes vote, I can't see the No voters just accepting and getting on with it. I foresee civil disobedience and years of further disruption as the independence negotiations proceed, as well as the EU application, the currency negotiations etc. I'm sure many No voters will not be minded to help that process. Inthe case of "No" vote - many of the Yes voters will still see it as a victory, and a stepping stone for Independence further down the line, so I dont expect national schisms in this case. From my own perspective, I vote with my heart, and I'm proud to be British and would remain so - I can't help that and I'm not ashamed of it. My wife is English so both of us would become "foreigners" and would not take on Scottish nationality. I know thats our choice, but thats how we see it. I think most no voters will get on with it. Id be gutted but if its what the country want I will accept it and move on. Most yes voters would too but, particularly if its close, some will have a meltdown. Particularly those who will immediately blame anybody and everybody else and start with the conspiracy theories. But I think those people will be in the minority. I think most yes voters will believe they will get another chance in a generation and see independence in their lifetime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djf Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 Every politician who has significantly campaigned for No has committed career suicide. How they have conspired to take a near on sure thing to a coin toss with 7 days to go is incredible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hasselhoff Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 But something might happen. Haven't you heard? Like a currency union? or getting in EU instantly? or finding that rUK give us everything we ask for without any issue at all? Given 70% of export from Scotland goes to the UK, we need them more than need us from a business point of view. In the same way that Scottish people say they would happily pay an extra bit of money to make a socially fare Scotland, I'm sure the majority of the rUK would happily pay a wee bit extra transaction costs when doing business with Scotland to block them using the pound. Why is the CU favourable for both Scotland AND the rUK again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redm Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 But something might happen. Haven't you heard? Obviously we were all under the impression that in the event of a Yes vote that we'd just get new passports and nothing else would change. These companies coming out and saying that there would have to be some logistical changes in the event of an independent Scotland is an absolute revelation to me. Never saw it coming. That's the thing. No campaign endlessly mutter on and on about some 'land of milk and honey' utopia that I don't think any Yes voter has ever mentioned. Not to me anyway. Most speak of the work that needs to be done. The fact nobody weeps about it all seems to be interpreted by No camp as naivety or lack of anticipation. All these companies are doing is exactly what would be expected - reacting to shareholder, customer and staff concerns. Reassuring them that they're ready for any eventuality and they have contingency plans in place. If you have responsibility for money, the owners of that money like to know you're on the ball. I'd love to hear what these details are that TM mentions because as far as I'm aware there are none available - if I'm wrong I'd love to be corrected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deesidejambo Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 Guardian/ICM Poll has it still too close to call. No = 51 pct Yes = 49 pct Undecided = 17 pct http://www.theguardi...l-says-icm-poll Most polls presume a +/- 3 pct point margin of error, though they're saying they think it's one of the most accurate yet: "The Guardian/ICM poll is based on telephone interviews conducted between Tuesday and Thursday, the first such survey ICM has conducted during the campaign. "Previous polls suggesting that the race for Scotland could go to a photo-finish, have been based on internet-based surveys.In the UK-wide referendum on the Alternative Vote in 2011, a similar Guardian/ICM poll predicted the final outcome with remarkable accuracy." How on earth, after all the campaigning, all the debates, all the reporting, can 17% of people still be "Undecided"? Personally I'm sick of it all and can't wait to get it over with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redm Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 They have also suggested that 42% of Labour voters, in 2010, are voting Yes. Might want to check the news.... Oh my. Paisley has died. See? That's what happens if I step away from Twitter for longer than 2 minutes. STUFF HAPPENS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redm Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 How on earth, after all the campaigning, all the debates, all the reporting, can 17% of people still be "Undecided"? Personally I'm sick of it all and can't wait to get it over with. 17% Yes voters still up for grabs. That's how I'm reading that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoJack Horseman Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 How on earth, after all the campaigning, all the debates, all the reporting, can 17% of people still be "Undecided"? Personally I'm sick of it all and can't wait to get it over with. I read it as 17% of people are in the "mind your own business" camp. They'll know how they're voting, I'm sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deesidejambo Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 I read it as 17% of people are in the "mind your own business" camp. They'll know how they're voting, I'm sure. i tend to agree. In which case I see them as No voters ot not voting at all. If they were Yes they would be eager to say so, as its the Yes campaign that needs the momentum. I'm away to Beftair. Its a No. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambo1185 Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 I read it as 17% of people are in the "mind your own business" camp. They'll know how they're voting, I'm sure. I agree. Id be surprised if there were even 10% undecided left. Not to say people won't switch of course before Thursday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flecktimus Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 Me, for one. I'll be voting Yes but don't have anything advertising the fact. I am the same Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoJack Horseman Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 i tend to agree. In which case I see them as No voters ot not voting at all. If they were Yes they would be eager to say so, as its the Yes campaign that needs the momentum. I'm away to Beftair. Its a No. What was that about confirmation bias? I think they're all voting Yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OmiyaHearts Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 Genuine question. Can the leaders of public organisations/bodies and charities voice their opinions as respective heads? I work for Uni of Glasgow which is a public organisation and charity. We've been told not to discuss the referendum in the office or in University grounds as we are supposed to be politically neutral. Still do it when the boss isn't around though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoJack Horseman Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 I work for Uni of Glasgow which is a public organisation and charity. We've been told not to discuss the referendum in the office or in University grounds as we are supposed to be politically neutral. Still do it when the boss isn't around though! Also work for a Uni, and it's the same here. Can't be vocal one way or another. Doesn't stop No Thanks stickers turning up in the tea room though. Cheeky feckers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Seeger Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 There's a quote from McGuiness on Ian Paisley on the BBC. Over a number of decades we were political opponents and held very different views on many, many issues but the one thing we were absolutely united on was the principle that our people were better able to govern themselves than any British government," he said Does that mean Paisley would have been a Yes man? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Lyon Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 No Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deesidejambo Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 What was that about confirmation bias? I think they're all voting Yes. So thats the Yes landslide confirmed? You need to be on Betfair also - you'll get fantastic odds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriel Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 I work for Uni of Glasgow which is a public organisation and charity. We've been told not to discuss the referendum in the office or in University grounds as we are supposed to be politically neutral. Still do it when the boss isn't around though! This is one of the ironies of the debate. With more people employed in the public sector in Scotland, it would have been interesting to hear different perspectives, yet what we seem to be receiving are voices for and against from the private sector and nothing else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redm Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 (edited) Oh, despite my head to toe Yes'ing as described above I should've said that none of this applies at work. I'll wear my badge or whatever but not if I'm going to meetings or we have visitors in, things like that. I work in renewables though so stands to reason most of us are yes voters, although not all. One or two wee exceptions. One lawyer, one bean counter...unsurprisingly. Edited September 12, 2014 by redm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 What do you mean? The DUP. That's why I asked as to why it was relevant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DETTY29 Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 Every politician who has significantly campaigned for No has committed career suicide. How they have conspired to take a near on sure thing to a coin toss with 7 days to go is incredible. As I think it will be a NO vote, I think there are only 2 key politicians that will need to decide what to do next. Salmond being Salmond will continue instead of standing down, making the next referendum (2020?) about him again. Darling is certainly in a No lose position. He will stand for 1 more election as a constituency MP (hope I haven't missed that he is standing down ) Hopes for a minority / small majority Labour government; Milliband makes a dogs dinner and he takes over Labour PM - this forces 1 more cycle at Westminster). Non Labour Government / Milliband fairly safe - definitely stands down for 2020. Moves to House of Lords and takes up several directorships of companies providing advice how to lobby politicians to significantly reduce tax liabilities to Treasury. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMaganator Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 And what are the potential consequences so far? As in real, actual consequences? Not media 'interpretations' of what will happen? What have we actually been told? Not an awful lot. Please share these details you speak of. Business that have spoken out recently have given a very strong indication that independence will be bad for their business. Be that oil extraction or ability to provide groceries at prices they are doing now. The banks moving their HQs is just brass plaquery for now but may be physical movement in the future. What you are ignoring is that the business that have come out in favour of a No vote have been subjected to boycotts by senior Yes members. The partners in my firm all think it is a terrible idea - both for the business and them personally. They have taken the view to remain silent because for fear of reprisals. I had a client in this morning who was told yesterday in Glasgow that there was an open 'this is an awful idea' letter being passed around the local businesses - but people are too scared to sign it. What a brave new world we are entering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottish_chicP Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 I have a yes badge on my twitter and facebook. I don't care if it's "Chronic chat". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DETTY29 Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 There's a quote from McGuiness on Ian Paisley on the BBC. Over a number of decades we were political opponents and held very different views on many, many issues but the one thing we were absolutely united on was the principle that our people were better able to govern themselves than any British government," he said Does that mean Paisley would have been a Yes man? Wonder what Paisley Jnr will say? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderstruck Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 But something might happen. Haven't you heard? Obviously we were all under the impression that in the event of a Yes vote that we'd just get new passports and nothing else would change. These companies coming out and saying that there would have to be some logistical changes in the event of an independent Scotland is an absolute revelation to me. Never saw it coming. It's not that something MIGHT happen. Something WILL happen, you are voting for CHANGE. The issue is that nobody on the Yes side, from Salmond down, is able to articulate what the changes would be, when they would be implemented and how they would impact on our lives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redm Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 The DUP. That's why I asked as to why it was relevant. Ah, I posted that a good few hours before he died. It's relevant either way though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.