HMRC Freeze Rangers Bank Accounts? Martin Bain Story (merged)

[redm]

I know there was some sort of mini interweb scandal about this blog a while ago - something to do with Rangers trying to have it shut down or something - but does anyone actually know who writes it? It's not that Phil Mac Giolla Bhain loony, is it?

[Bickfest]

If it was just Administration to get rid of their debts then RFC would bite your hand off. In order to exit Administration you need a CVA. i.e. an agreement of unsecured creditors holding 75% or more of the debt to take a few p in the ?. If this saga ends with HMRC holding more than 25% of the debt, they will liquidate RFC.

 

Sure, a new RFC 2012 could be born, but they will have to get the agreement of the rest of the SPL clubs to be readmitted. SFA Club licensing may also be a problem.

I think that's likely. Their (Rangers') biggest problem is that their balance sheet, even with the tax debt in, shows an apparent surplus in assets. As a result, to do the best for the Crown, HMRC would have to press for the liquidation of all assets (unless someone else paid off the debt). Administration with a CVA would be an unlikely scenario. Real shame.......

[Jambosr1985]

Rangers going into admin would muck us up re Wallace money not a good thing from a Hearts perspective.

[Charlie-Brown]

Rangers going into admin would muck us up re Wallace money not a good thing from a Hearts perspective.

 

Hearts can automatically appeal to the SPL, SFA & SFL to have any unpaid debts or monies owed from a member club set off and deducted from the money Rangers would be due to be paid for their participation in the League & Cups.

[Guest Bilel Mohsni]

Jambosr1985,

 

re Wallace: Dinnae give a **** mate (is that even true by the way? Not sure about that), Rangers dieing would more than make up for that.

 

Rangers are scum, total vermin and I want them to die a painfull death... You seem quite keen on them mind. (bonus)

[AllyjamboDerbyshire]

I think that's likely. Their (Rangers') biggest problem is that their balance sheet, even with the tax debt in, shows an apparent surplus in assets. As a result, to do the best for the Crown, HMRC would have to press for the liquidation of all assets (unless someone else paid off the debt). Administration with a CVA would be an unlikely scenario. Real shame.......

This to me is most most likely scenario, assuming they lose the case. Administration would only work if there are not enough assets to clear, or nearly clear, all debts, unless all the creditors were really nice, and wealthy, guys, prepared to say goodbye to the bulk of their money. There will be plenty of little guys, perhaps even Rangers fans, who could well go out of business if they don't get all, or nearly all, their due monies and even though it would break their heart, they would have no choice other than to back liquidation of the club. It has been suggested that Craig Whyte has set everything up so that much of Ranger's debt is owed to him or his subsidiaries so he can 'save' Rangers, but I'd expect it is more about him protecting his investment, and even making money, should it all go against Rangers.

[westbow]

Rangers going into admin would muck us up re Wallace money not a good thing from a Hearts perspective.

What is the precedent for this? I take it we don't own Wallace until all/some payments are made? Genune question, or we in a long line of bumpage?

[Charlie-Brown]

What is the precedent for this? I take it we don't own Wallace until all/some payments are made? Genune question, or we in a long line of bumpage?

 

Given that every year all clubs get money for participating in the League & Cups it's actually quite hard for clubs to simply bump other member clubs out of money as the club that is owed usually appeals to the SPL, SFL & SFA etc to have that money deducted from the other clubs payments until the debt is satisfied.

 

The League & SFA can also impose sanctions ie points deductions or other forms of discplining them until they oblige their debts.

[Chester™]

It has been suggested that Craig Whyte has set everything up so that much of Ranger's debt is owed to him or his subsidiaries so he can 'save' Rangers, but I'd expect it is more about him protecting his investment, and even making money, should it all go against Rangers.

 

Did he not say if he lost the tax case, that he would put the club into administration anyway and send the debt back to the club?

[AllyjamboDerbyshire]

Did he not say if he lost the tax case, that he would put the club into administration anyway and send the debt back to the club?

I think most of what he says is just eyewash for the Rangers fans and the media. There is no doubt, in my mind at least, that he is only in it for himself and couldn't care less about Rangers, as long as he makes a profit. As was posted earlier, nobody can just put their business into administration and assume everything is ok, it's up to the creditors to decide what happens, and if they decide administration is not in their best interest, then liquidation is the only answer. And that is a whole different ballgame.

[Hagar the Horrible]

Every body has assumed that Ranger will go into administartion but what happens if the go totally sky breastwards

 

The question we shoauld all be asking is what contingency is in place should Rangers be unable to fulfill any fixtures after November, the league would crash into chaos, Celtic would walk the league and we would get that 1 point detucted that we won against them?

 

Mind you I pray they go for a burton as it would also mean that Celtic would suffer a long slow death with them

[AllyjamboDerbyshire]

Every body has assumed that Ranger will go into administartion but what happens if the go totally sky breastwards

 

The question we shoauld all be asking is what contingency is in place should Rangers be unable to fulfill any fixtures after November, the league would crash into chaos, Celtic would walk the league and we would get that 1 point detucted that we won against them?

 

Mind you I pray they go for a burton as it would also mean that Celtic would suffer a long slow death with them

They'd probably go into administration first, and if they can't satisfy their debtors, into liquidation. That all takes time so they'd probably be able to play out the rest of this season at least, having lost the 10 points. In the worst/best case scenario and they go bust, it'll be interesting to see just how they get treated compared to Airdrie. Not exactly sure how it all panned out for Airdrie but Rangers shouldn't get treated any better, or worse, than they were.

[Hackney Hearts]

I like Rangers, it would be a shame if they went out of business.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest Bilel Mohsni]

Every body has assumed that Ranger will go into administartion but what happens if the go totally sky breastwards

 

The question we shoauld all be asking is what contingency is in place should Rangers be unable to fulfill any fixtures after November, the league would crash into chaos, Celtic would walk the league and we would get that 1 point detucted that we won against them?

 

Mind you I pray they go for a burton as it would also mean that Celtic would suffer a long slow death with them

 

Just terrified of cursing the best possible scenario...

[Better call Saul]

As a percentage what is the likely hood that they will go out of business ?

[Das Root]

Rangers 2012 walking into the league...I'm sure many clubs in the 1st Div would be perturbed. Surely no hun = double promotion or even no end of season SPL relegation, so bottom six clubs would also not be happy.

 

Given it's 100% to happen though, can only hope that the other SPL clubs use this to hammer out a new agreement removing the OF powerbase within the league. Splitting the TV money better to remove the OF getting so much, reinstate the reserve league etc etc.

[Sterling Archer]

Re Wallace.

 

What's the difference between 2nd and 3rd placed prize money and how many years of it would it take to make up what we're owed. I hope the fall to pieces.

[Charlie-Brown]

Re Wallace.

 

What's the difference between 2nd and 3rd placed prize money and how many years of it would it take to make up what we're owed. I hope the fall to pieces.

 

One seasons SPL money for any of the top 3 places would just cover all of the Lee Wallace transfer fee.

[Paolo]

Every body has assumed that Ranger will go into administartion but what happens if the go totally sky breastwards

 

The question we shoauld all be asking is what contingency is in place should Rangers be unable to fulfill any fixtures after November, the league would crash into chaos, Celtic would walk the league and we would get that 1 point detucted that we won against them?

 

Mind you I pray they go for a burton as it would also mean that Celtic would suffer a long slow death with them

If Rangers were to go out of business, I would go to my favourite bar, order my favourite drink, then go to my favourite seat and just sit there with a big cheesy smile on my face.

 

If it had an adverse effect on Celtic then I would simply repeat the process.

[johnboy26]

They'd probably go into administration first, and if they can't satisfy their debtors, into liquidation. That all takes time so they'd probably be able to play out the rest of this season at least, having lost the 10 points. In the worst/best case scenario and they go bust, it'll be interesting to see just how they get treated compared to Airdrie. Not exactly sure how it all panned out for Airdrie but Rangers shouldn't get treated any better, or worse, than they were.

look what happend to livingston

[Cairneyhill Jambo]

Just back from my local and was speaking to Rangers fans who were at the game. Rumours from Ibrox today is that Rangers will go into administration early next week. Apparently, BBC Scotland are pulling the One Show on Thursday to broadcast a programme about their woes. I know the fans well and don't normally spout crap. It may well be just a rumour but could be an interesting week.

[Das Root]

Super duper

[Victorian]

i could be looking for a new job next week then.

 

big heap hun boss no likey being pish ripped aboot big heap wonderful club.

[Notts1874]

This story just gets better and better!

[CJGJ]

All they would do is buy East Stirling -- then amend the name , move the club and start in the bottom league -- they would be SPL in 3 seasons.

 

 

I think there is precedence in this country for the above.

[Barney Rubble]

Ma work place has a mix of hobos , pars fans and huns , next week is going to be like all my christmases have came at once !

[Chester™]

Just back from my local and was speaking to Rangers fans who were at the game. Rumours from Ibrox today is that Rangers will go into administration early next week. Apparently, BBC Scotland are pulling the One Show on Thursday to broadcast a programme about their woes. I know the fans well and don't normally spout crap. It may well be just a rumour but could be an interesting week.

 

There isnt an 'apparently' about it. They are showing a programme about them but for some reason I expect a 'Whytewash' about it all and certainly not the in depth analysis they gave our esteemed leader - twice.

[Footballfirst]

John Greig and John McClelland have now resigned from the RFC board.

 

Rats and Sinking Ship come to mind.

 

I wonder if any of Martin Bain, Donald McIntyre or the above two have provided interviews for Thursday night's programme.

[Independence]

Just back from my local and was speaking to Rangers fans who were at the game. Rumours from Ibrox today is that Rangers will go into administration early next week. Apparently, BBC Scotland are pulling the One Show on Thursday to broadcast a programme about their woes. I know the fans well and don't normally spout crap. It may well be just a rumour but could be an interesting week.

 

Love it! What will all the glory hunters do?

[Gigolo-Aunt]

I hope this program on Rangers and their finances is put together by the good people who made the following program....

 

[The Gasman]

There were rumours circulating at the time of the takeover, but that it will be Lincoln City FC, not East Stirlingshire. By getting "Rangers" into English football, albeit through the back door, this was Whyte's plan, right from day one, to get a return on his money.

[Charlie-Brown]

There were rumours circulating at the time of the takeover, but that it will be Lincoln City FC, not East Stirlingshire. By getting "Rangers" into English football, albeit through the back door, this was Whyte's plan, right from day one, to get a return on his money.

 

Unless Craig Whyte plans on playing Rangers home games in Lincolnshire or perhaps relocating them to Carlisle then you can write this nonsense idea off as a complete non-starter. Aside from breaching English FA & Football League rules about teams playing within a territorial boundary it would also breach FIFA & UEFA rules about controlling interests in multiple clubs.

[The Gasman]

John Greig and John McClelland have now resigned from the RFC board.

 

I was told on Saturday (no idea how accurate it might be) that they may be going, based on the same legal advice that had been given to McIntyre. They had all seemingly been advised by a "Rangers minded" lawyer (who considers Whyte to be little more than a Del Boy character) that they were not meeting their legal obligations as Directors of a Company. When (not if) it all goes breasts skywards, they could have found themselves facing legal challenge by Shareholders, so had to get the hell out of Dodge now.

[Colonel Kurtz]

I was told on Saturday (no idea how accurate it might be) that they may be going, based on the same legal advice that had been given to McIntyre. They had all seemingly been advised by a "Rangers minded" lawyer (who considers Whyte to be little more than a Del Boy character) that they were not meeting their legal obligations as Directors of a Company. When (not if) it all goes breasts skywards, they could have found themselves facing legal challenge by Shareholders, so had to get the hell out of Dodge now.

I thought they were both non executive directors,and would therefore have no obligation as they could plead ignorance of financial governance,supported by minutes of board meetings

[Seymour M Hersh]

There isnt an 'apparently' about it. They are showing a programme about them but for some reason I expect a 'Whytewash' about it all and certainly not the in depth analysis they gave our esteemed leader - twice.

 

TBH Chester the standard of journalism in both programmes was of such poor quality it is pushing it to suggest they were in any way, shape or form in depth!

[The Gasman]

Unless Craig Whyte plans on playing Rangers home games in Lincolnshire or perhaps relocating them to Carlisle then you can write this nonsense idea off as a complete non-starter. Aside from breaching English FA & Football League rules about teams playing within a territorial boundary it would also breach FIFA & UEFA rules about controlling interests in multiple clubs.

 

I'm certainly not claiming any inside knowledge or information with this CB, nor would I speculate on how accurate or likely it was, but the rumour was doing the rounds. The idea was to let Rangers "die" and buy Lincoln City, who would to all intents and purposes become "New Rangers" - loosely based on what happened with Airdrie / Clydebank / Airdrie Utd.

 

As for the ground, it was said the intention would have been to play "home" games at Ibrox. They would have been an English Club, playing in the English Leagues, with a ground in Scotland - which is exactly what Gretna did for years. There is also Berwick Rangers, a Scottish Club, playing in the Scottish Leagues, with a ground in England, so the precedent has already been set, meaning it may be very difficult for the SFA / FIFA / EFA / UEFA to actually stop it.

[Seymour M Hersh]

I was told on Saturday (no idea how accurate it might be) that they may be going, based on the same legal advice that had been given to McIntyre. They had all seemingly been advised by a "Rangers minded" lawyer (who considers Whyte to be little more than a Del Boy character) that they were not meeting their legal obligations as Directors of a Company. When (not if) it all goes breasts skywards, they could have found themselves facing legal challenge by Shareholders, so had to get the hell out of Dodge now.

 

Luvly Jubbly!!

[The Gasman]

I thought they were both non executive directors,and would therefore have no obligation as they could plead ignorance of financial governance,supported by minutes of board meetings

 

To be fair, I think it was more to prevent / minimise their reputational damage in the eyes of the masses, than because any challenge would necessarily be successful. Having said that, I didn't know that non-executive directors had no obligation to shareholders. Everyday's a school day on JKB!

[harry]

Is there not a chance that nothing will happen or that rangers will just appeal any decision anyway?

[Rick Grimes]

As for the ground, it was said the intention would have been to play "home" games at Ibrox. They would have been an English Club, playing in the English Leagues, with a ground in Scotland - which is exactly what Gretna did for years. There is also Berwick Rangers, a Scottish Club, playing in the Scottish Leagues, with a ground in England, so the precedent has already been set, meaning it may be very difficult for the SFA / FIFA / EFA / UEFA to actually stop it.

 

 

very interesting to see how this would play out - I believe the examples you mention, & the Welsh clubs in the English leagues, all had to have special dispensation granted and that wasn't meant to set any precendence.

 

you could easily argue it does but Rangers of Lincoln FC would need to take FIFA, UEFA, the FA & SFA to court which wouldn't be winning them many friends. added to that - is there any "right" to be part of a particular sporting league? seems a little unlikely.

[Charlie-Brown]

I'm certainly not claiming any inside knowledge or information with this CB, nor would I speculate on how accurate or likely it was, but the rumour was doing the rounds. The idea was to let Rangers "die" and buy Lincoln City, who would to all intents and purposes become "New Rangers" - loosely based on what happened with Airdrie / Clydebank / Airdrie Utd.

 

As for the ground, it was said the intention would have been to play "home" games at Ibrox. They would have been an English Club, playing in the English Leagues, with a ground in Scotland - which is exactly what Gretna did for years. There is also Berwick Rangers, a Scottish Club, playing in the Scottish Leagues, with a ground in England, so the precedent has already been set, meaning it may be very difficult for the SFA / FIFA / EFA / UEFA to actually stop it.

 

It is actually very easy for Football association to prevent it - they can revoke clubs licenses or membership and then it's down to the club to go through all the legal hassles to fight to get themselves re-instated. Berwick Rangers & Gretna are borderline examples of teams crossing the border however they were PERMITTED to by the English FA and the SFA without objection. The FA & SFA have ultimate jurusdiction over Association Football within their geographic territory and can fine, censure & disqualify or allow as they see fit. It is 100% certain that Lincoln City (Rangers) or any other similar attempts to gerrymander boundaries will never be permitted by the FA or UEFA if the national associations are against it.

 

Wimbledon wanted to move to Dublin approx 15 years ago to escape the intense comptition for London fanbase and tap into the idea of a Premier League team based in Dublin/ireland long before they ever thought of relocating to Milton Keynes. It wasn't a go-er then and it won't be permitted now. If it was allowed then ALL bets are off and national boundaries across the UK and Europe would effectively be dissolved as far as football teams are concerned.

[vegas-voss]

It would be great if they were allowed to buy Lincoln and **** off.They would still need massive investement to get to the promised land of the EPL and could struggle down those lower leagues for years.Look at teams like Leeds and Forrest and remember Rangers wouldnt have the players they have just now strolling about the lower leagues they would be offski.Fans would leave after failed promotions and they could eventually even end up in far worse a position than they are.

[The Gasman]

It is actually very easy for Football association to prevent it - they can revoke clubs licenses or membership and then it's down to the club to go through all the legal hassles to fight to get themselves re-instated. Berwick Rangers & Gretna are borderline examples of teams crossing the border however they were PERMITTED to by the English FA and the SFA without objection. The FA & SFA have ultimate jurusdiction over Association Football within their geographic territory and can fine, censure & disqualify or allow as they see fit. It is 100% certain that Lincoln City (Rangers) or any other similar attempts to gerrymander boundaries will never be permitted by the FA or UEFA if the national associations are against it.

 

Wimbledon wanted to move to Dublin approx 15 years ago to escape the intense comptition for London fanbase and tap into the idea of a Premier League team based in Dublin/ireland long before they ever thought of relocating to Milton Keynes. It wasn't a go-er then and it won't be permitted now. If it was allowed then ALL bets are off and national boundaries across the UK and Europe would effectively be dissolved as far as football teams are concerned.

 

Fair enough CB

 

I'd forgotten about Wimbledon's attempted move to Dublin, and that's a far better comparison to Rangers situation than the Airdrie / Clydebank one.

 

I wonder then if that means that the rumour is just male cow poo (a very distinct possibility!) or that Craig Whyte may have horribly missjudged what he was getting into, and what he could get out of it?

[269miles]

I thought they were both non executive directors,and would therefore have no obligation as they could plead ignorance of financial governance,supported by minutes of board meetings

 

I'm sure I read somewhere a long time ago that Greig was brought in /appointed specifically at the time of the Whyte buyout in order to placate Rangers fans ie he was the eyes of the fans and so had a strict remit. If any Rangers directors (past or present ) should have cause for concern regarding the tax case I don't think it should be him as he wasn't on the board at the time, IIRC. Maybe he's bailing out now because it's all going chebs up and he doesn't want to be tainted .

 

As pointed out on the Rangers Tax Case blog , Whyte appears to be playing hard ball with the current two legal claims in order to make it clear who the 'guilty' really are (ie not Whyte).

[HoGwash]

Fair enough CB

 

I'd forgotten about Wimbledon's attempted move to Dublin, and that's a far better comparison to Rangers situation than the Airdrie / Clydebank one.

 

I wonder then if that means that the rumour is just male cow poo (a very distinct possibility!) or that Craig Whyte may have horribly missjudged what he was getting into, and what he could get out of it?

 

Hopefully the latter

[Colonel Kurtz]

To be fair, I think it was more to prevent / minimise their reputational damage in the eyes of the masses, than because any challenge would necessarily be successful. Having said that, I didn't know that non-executive directors had no obligation to shareholders. Everyday's a school day on JKB!

I believe that Whyte was always just a front,the real players will buy The Rangers brand from The administrators with no tax liability.

Perhaps it is altready been prepackaged.

What would be ironic is if they still win the league even with the points deduction

[Hagar the Horrible]

It is actually very easy for Football association to prevent it - they can revoke clubs licenses or membership and then it's down to the club to go through all the legal hassles to fight to get themselves re-instated. Berwick Rangers & Gretna are borderline examples of teams crossing the border however they were PERMITTED to by the English FA and the SFA without objection. The FA & SFA have ultimate jurusdiction over Association Football within their geographic territory and can fine, censure & disqualify or allow as they see fit. It is 100% certain that Lincoln City (Rangers) or any other similar attempts to gerrymander boundaries will never be permitted by the FA or UEFA if the national associations are against it.

 

Wimbledon wanted to move to Dublin approx 15 years ago to escape the intense comptition for London fanbase and tap into the idea of a Premier League team based in Dublin/ireland long before they ever thought of relocating to Milton Keynes. It wasn't a go-er then and it won't be permitted now. If it was allowed then ALL bets are off and national boundaries across the UK and Europe would effectively be dissolved as far as football teams are concerned.

 

 

Loads of salient points here and in other posts, but my take was after a discussion I have with some chairmen I met in a hotel in london in 2006, they said that if the OF were allowed into the EPL then the next step would be for celtic tomove to a 10k stadium outside dublin.

 

 

As for some other points the diference between 1. (Livingston and Airdie ) 2 (Motherwell and Dundee) and 3(gretna) were:

1. they did not own their stadium to sell off to pay off debts, Livi were able to get out of admin by selling the club and the creditors were happy with with the deal. Airdieonians went bust, but the consortium who bought Clydebank moved to airdries council owned stadium selling kilbowie and created airdie utd, but only after the league refused then entry. it was then and only then they had to buy out Clydebank.

 

2. Motherwell and Dundee manage both to get out of admin without having to sell off the stadium as land.

 

3. Gretna just went for a burton as they had zero cash flow.

 

In all cases none of those teams owned the level of debt that Rangers could owe, ?50m+ to HMRC, ?1m to former directors, ?20m to Craig Whyte (the old Lloyds debt). Rangers would have to sell off all their assets including the stadium as the tax man will still want all the money owed and would still put the onus onto any new owner after they came out of Admin. None owed the taxman that amount of money combined.

 

So why would CW put the club into Admin only for another owner to get them cheap he loses about ?19m in the process, when by putting them into liquidation he gets the lot as prefered creditor, and tax man gets all thats left.

 

So after the go into admin, somebody would have to find in excess of ?60m to get them out of admin

if they went bust somebody would have to buy the stadium and another club to rename and move into Ibrox.

 

Also if they bought Lincoln or Carlisle, even if the won the championship appart from even if the Englisg FA said yeh thats OK, the EPL can still veto them out of ever getting into the EPL as like the SPL the winning club still has to apply for membership and the relegated club resigns. That might not happen.

 

Dark day for them bright new dawn for the rest of us

[Hagar the Horrible]

I believe that Whyte was always just a front,the real players will buy The Rangers brand from The administrators with no tax liability.

Perhaps it is altready been prepackaged.

What would be ironic is if they still win the league even with the points deduction

 

The tax liability will remain while Rangersa remain, other debtors might accept 5p in the pound (including CW) but the tax man will want the ful payment from any new buyer before the club could come out of admin.

[Colonel Kurtz]

The tax liability will remain while Rangersa remain, other debtors might accept 5p in the pound (including CW) but the tax man will want the ful payment from any new buyer before the club could come out of admin.

But say NewcoRangers 2011 Ltd would have no liability..time will tell

[AllyjamboDerbyshire]

With the FA now closelly vetting all parties involved in takeovers of existing English League teams, due to the dodgey foreign characters who have taken over clubs in the recent past, it is highly unlikely that they'd welcome a foreign club that has gone into administration due to dodgey tax dealings. With Whyte's, alledgedly, rather unscrupulous record of asset stripping as a way of making his money, it is open to doubt that they'd even let him takeover an existing English club. As they've never shown any interest in the past in having the OF join them it's even more unlikely now, and Celtic, without Rangers, would just be a club with a big support but nothing special to offer.