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HMRC Freeze Rangers Bank Accounts? Martin Bain Story (merged)


Charlie-Brown

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AllyjamboDerbyshire

With the current state of the UK economy it seems to me that HMRC is taking stronger lines to get all money that's owed to them, that's why they want the full amount from Rangers, including all the penalties and I don't see them change their stance on the 'larger' tax bill and why would they as Rangers is an organization that will mean nothing to them.

 

Would be surprised if Whyte avoids these bills with his 'manoeuvres' HMRC look like they have their hooks in Rangers and they want blood.

 

Don't know how thus will transpire in the fullness of time but in all aspects of life the status quo is always temporary with power shift continually changing through time. If Rangers are badly damaged by these tax bills it could take them years to recover and their glory hunting fans are not renowned for their stick-ability. There are certainly dark clouds over Ibrox.

 

IMO a diminished (weakened not obliterated) Rangers and Celtic would be good for Scottish football as they would both be closer to the other teams. This would create more competition, excitement which should bring back supports and bigger TV deals.

I'm not suggesting that they will get the amount of tax owed reduced but that they might get the penalty reduced. I have read varying estimates of what they are supposedly due, over ?60m in some reports, but that will probably be exaggerated (I don't know as not sure of the reliability of the sources). I'm also certain Whyte would have factored in the worst case scenario when buying Rangers so he must believe he can get away with most of it, doesn't make sense buying them in the first place otherwise, unless Murray will somehow have to foot the bill.

It might well be a shot in the arm to the rest of Scottish football, but what are we gonna do about Celtic?

Of course, Rangers probably still believe the EPL are going to come along and invite them, and all the money they'd bring with them, into the Premiership :lol:

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SoldierPalmer

I'm not suggesting that they will get the amount of tax owed reduced but that they might get the penalty reduced. I have read varying estimates of what they are supposedly due, over ?60m in some reports, but that will probably be exaggerated (I don't know as not sure of the reliability of the sources). I'm also certain Whyte would have factored in the worst case scenario when buying Rangers so he must believe he can get away with most of it, doesn't make sense buying them in the first place otherwise, unless Murray will somehow have to foot the bill.

It might well be a shot in the arm to the rest of Scottish football, but what are we gonna do about Celtic?

Of course, Rangers probably still believe the EPL are going to come along and invite them, and all the money they'd bring with them, into the Premiership :lol:

 

It looks like in this case (i.e. as regards the smaller tax bill) HMRC are after the full penalty amount and why wouldn't they be, which suggests they would also chase the full penalty amount on the larger bill.

 

I agree it doesn't look attractive to have a Celtic that are stronger than the rest, but their clout is also on the wane as can be seen from their attempts at Europe this year.

 

IMO both Rangers and Celtic are both struggling to understand their place in the new world order. :)

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Son Of Anarchy

The question is if they have to start again why not do it down south?

 

because,just like us,they dont want them either.

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AllyjamboDerbyshire

It looks like in this case (i.e. as regards the smaller tax bill) HMRC are after the full penalty amount and why wouldn't they be, which suggests they would also chase the full penalty amount on the larger bill.

 

I agree it doesn't look attractive to have a Celtic that are stronger than the rest, but their clout is also on the wane as can be seen from their attempts at Europe this year.

 

IMO both Rangers and Celtic are both struggling to understand their place in the new world order. :)

With their bank account now frozen, apparently with a 7 figure sum ring fenced, they are clearly now having to face up to the reality of the situation. They may yet wish they'd taken whatever was offered for Jelavic, as, as seems likely, they might have to sell him in the January window with everyone aware that it is a fire sale. Or, as may be possible, lose him for free if they can't pay his wages for the next 4 months! I'm sure the tax man isn't best pleased that they claim to have turned down ?6.5m from Leicester (I'm ignoring the ?9m claim) and perhaps this is what has brought about this latest action! I doubt HMRC like getting 2 fingers from anyone, not even the mighty Glasgow Rangers :down:

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Mr Brightside

Just a thought, Rangers go bust and reform, could the apply to join the English football league at a low level and work their way up the leagues?

 

I think worst case is Rangers get wound up reapply to the SFA start in division 3 and in 4 years would be an spl team again with the second largest support in the league and would gradually build themselves back to their current stature.

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Just a thought, Rangers go bust and reform, could the apply to join the English football league at a low level and work their way up the leagues?

 

I think worst case is Rangers get wound up reapply to the SFA start in division 3 and in 4 years would be an spl team again with the second largest support in the league and would gradually build themselves back to their current stature.

 

History shows that Rangers fans are glory-hunters, their attendances in the 80's when they were not winning were shocking. How many fans would turn up to see them in the 3rd division (not that i think that scenario is likely)?

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Mr Brightside

History shows that Rangers fans are glory-hunters, their attendances in the 80's when they were not winning were shocking. How many fans would turn up to see them in the 3rd division (not that i think that scenario is likely)?

 

Not sure how many would turn up to third division games certainly not anywhere near 50 thousand.

 

But a fanbase of 2-3 thousand would generate enough money to win the lower leagues in Scotland.

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SoldierPalmer

Just a thought, Rangers go bust and reform, could the apply to join the English football league at a low level and work their way up the leagues?

 

I think worst case is Rangers get wound up reapply to the SFA start in division 3 and in 4 years would be an spl team again with the second largest support in the league and would gradually build themselves back to their current stature.

 

IMO English football will never accept either of the old firm, because of their religious baggage, this isn't a problem in England and why risk introducing it for two teams they don't need.

 

If Rangers had to start again in the 3rd of 4th division they might never recover from this, even now they can't compete with the English Champion sides to sign players.

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AllyjamboDerbyshire

I just can't see Rangers going bust, much as I like the idea :thumbsup: I expect that if the worst(best)case scenario came about then the rules would be changed to accomodate them in the SPL (40 team top flight!! :woot: ). Whatever the outcome, we can just sit back and enjoy their pain :thumbsup:

I wonder how Celtic would get on without the ying to their yang :unsure:

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With their bank account now frozen, apparently with a 7 figure sum ring fenced, they are clearly now having to face up to the reality of the situation. They may yet wish they'd taken whatever was offered for Jelavic, as, as seems likely, they might have to sell him in the January window with everyone aware that it is a fire sale. Or, as may be possible, lose him for free if they can't pay his wages for the next 4 months! I'm sure the tax man isn't best pleased that they claim to have turned down ?6.5m from Leicester (I'm ignoring the ?9m claim) and perhaps this is what has brought about this latest action! I doubt HMRC like getting 2 fingers from anyone, not even the mighty Glasgow Rangers :down:

 

There are no SPL Clubs who will have seven figure sums of money just lying idle in a bank account. Someone suggested earlier in this thread, that the money was the final instalment on Season Tickets paid on 31st Aug, so was only there for 48hrs, and that seems feasible.

 

Probably the most immediate question is, what were Rangers going to spend that money on, as they surely now have a massive cash-flow crisis? With the money "ring fenced" are there a number of other creditors who now cannot get paid, possibly including Hearts (for Lee Wallace) and who may be forced to take legal action to try to secure their monies?

 

Without this money, can Rangers pay their players, the police, their stewards, their various suppliers? Everyone was waiting for the "big" tax bill to bring them to their knees, but the "small" tax bill may have done enough damage to their cash flow to seriously damage Rangers ability to continue to trade.

 

Hopefully! :whistling:

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AllyjamboDerbyshire

IMO English football will never accept either of the old firm, because of their religious baggage, this isn't a problem in England and why risk introducing it for two teams they don't need.

If Rangers had to start again in the 3rd of 4th division they might never recover from this, even now they can't compete with the English Champion sides to sign players.

The only semi reasonable argument either of the OF have put forward for their acceptance into the English League is the income they'd generate. If Rangers go bust, they have no money, so why, even under they're logic, would anyone want them? And Celtic without Rangers? Who would their fans have to hate? No point in turning up then, is there?

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AllyjamboDerbyshire

There are no SPL Clubs who will have seven figure sums of money just lying idle in a bank account. Someone suggested earlier in this thread, that the money was the final instalment on Season Tickets paid on 31st Aug, so was only there for 48hrs, and that seems feasible.

 

Probably the most immediate question is, what were Rangers going to spend that money on, as they surely now have a massive cash-flow crisis? With the money "ring fenced" are there a number of other creditors who now cannot get paid, possibly including Hearts (for Lee Wallace) and who may be forced to take legal action to try to secure their monies?

 

Without this money, can Rangers pay their players, the police, their stewards, their various suppliers? Everyone was waiting for the "big" tax bill to bring them to their knees, but the "small" tax bill may have done enough damage to their cash flow to seriously damage Rangers ability to continue to trade.

 

Hopefully! :whistling:

Sadly, if Hearts haven't already been paid they might never see their money and all legal action would take forever. HMRC might even sell off the players to recoup what Rangers owe as they are no1 preferential creditors. Suddenly not such a laugh! Unless, of course, Hearts have already received their money. Somebody please tell me we got our money.

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SoldierPalmer

Sadly, if Hearts haven't already been paid they might never see their money and all legal action would take forever. HMRC might even sell off the players to recoup what Rangers owe as they are no1 preferential creditors. Suddenly not such a laugh! Unless, of course, Hearts have already received their money. Somebody please tell me we got our money.

 

or maybe we could just get Wallace back

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Sadly, if Hearts haven't already been paid they might never see their money and all legal action would take forever. HMRC might even sell off the players to recoup what Rangers owe as they are no1 preferential creditors.

 

Not at all likely as, bizarrely, "football debt" takes precedence. Also if Rangers are unable / unwilling to pay us, then they would find themselves suspended for breach of league rules. Even trying to just give us Wallace back (he's out injured just now!) would be problematic as the transfer window's closed, and if we haven't been paid, was he ever then legally a Rangers player, or would they find themselves guilty of having fielded an ineligible player?

 

I'm still sniggering! :thumb:

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Footballfirst

Thanks for the info there. Its the first time I have seen it laid out so simply.

Question, why haven't the HMRC asked for tax on these payments before. Why has it taken 10 years to bill Rankgers for the payments to the EBT account?

Employee Benefit Trusts are legal. It is how they have been used by Rangers that makes them potentially liable for tax. EBTs are meant to be used for discretionery payments e.g. special one off bonuses, excess profits in a company etc. It is suspected that Rangers have used them as part of players contracted income in order to reduce the amount of tax and NIC paid. If that is proved to be the case then the sums should have been taxed as income.

 

The problem first became apparent in 2005, when Ray Parlour inadvertently exposed the "tax avoidance" in a divorce case where he was required to give full details of his income. Arsenal subsequently reached an agreement with HMRC to pay them a reported ?11M in tax arrears.

 

Portsmoth and Leeds are two other clubs who have allegedly also used EBTs. There will be several other clubs waiting nervously on the outcome of this case.

 

Not at all likely as, bizarrely, "football debt" takes precedence. Also if Rangers are unable / unwilling to pay us, then they would find themselves suspended for breach of league rules. Even trying to just give us Wallace back (he's out injured just now!) would be problematic as the transfer window's closed, and if we haven't been paid, was he ever then legally a Rangers player, or would they find themselves guilty of having fielded an ineligible player?

 

I'm still sniggering! :thumb:

I think that the "football debt" is an EPL rule and doesn't apply in Scotland.

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Hannibal Lecter

Employee Benefit Trusts are legal. It is how they have been used by Rangers that makes them potentially liable for tax. EBTs are meant to be used for discretionery payments e.g. special one off bonuses, excess profits in a company etc. It is suspected that Rangers have used them as part of players contracted income in order to reduce the amount of tax and NIC paid. If that is proved to be the case then the sums should have been taxed as income.

 

The problem first became apparent in 2005, when Ray Parlour inadvertently exposed the "tax avoidance" in a divorce case where he was required to give full details of his income. Arsenal subsequently reached an agreement with HMRC to pay them a reported ?11M in tax arrears.

 

Portsmoth and Leeds are two other clubs who have allegedly also used EBTs. There will be several other clubs waiting nervously on the outcome of this case.

 

 

I think that the "football debt" is an EPL rule and doesn't apply in Scotland.

 

Plus I'm sure someone will correct me if I am wrong but I was always led to believe that when debts were owed the taxman had to come first?

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I think that the "football debt" is an EPL rule and doesn't apply in Scotland.

 

I'd always been under the impression that it was a football wide, and UK wide, historical anomaly, but you may well be right.

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And the chairmen of the other clubs would call for them to be instantly promoted to the SPL

Im not sure they would, however SKY would be waving a big cheerio to Scotland :whistling:
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Plus I'm sure someone will correct me if I am wrong but I was always led to believe that when debts were owed the taxman had to come first?

In respect to joe public, yes. But HMRC is not considered a preferential creditor when it comes to football clubs. Clubs pay football-related debts such as salaries and player transfers first.

 

One reason HMRC is unhappy is that when a club goes into administration HMRC have to line up with all other non-footballing creditors to fight for what is left in the pot AFTER football-related creditors are paid.

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Hannibal Lecter

In respect to joe public, yes. But HMRC is not considered a preferential creditor when it comes to football clubs. Clubs pay football-related debts such as salaries and player transfers first.

 

One reason HMRC is unhappy is that when a club goes into administration HMRC have to line up with all other non-footballing creditors to fight for what is left in the pot AFTER football-related creditors are paid.

 

Thanks for clearing that up for me bud :thumbsup:

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Just heard this, but not sure if its 100% true on not, but here goes:

1. It has been confirmed that Rangers' bank accounts have been frozen by the bank today.

2. If they don't pay HMRC the small bill that they owe them by Monday, they will be placed into administration. The big bill is still pending.

3. Should that happen all season tickets,VIP boxes, game packages etc, will be null & void.

4. They will not be allowed any credit facilities,so it will be 'cash only' gates at Ibrox.

5. Rangers faxed a letter to the bank yesterday,saying that Liverpool made a ?9M bid for Jelavic so that they could register him as a ?9M asset with the bank.

 

Apparently Kenny Dalglish went nuts as no such offer was made by Liverpool. They are consulting their lawyers &

considering legal action.

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Hannibal Lecter

Just heard this, but not sure if its 100% true on not, but here goes:

1. It has been confirmed that Rangers' bank accounts have been frozen by the bank today.

2. If they don't pay HMRC the small bill that they owe them by Monday, they will be placed into administration. The big bill is still pending.

3. Should that happen all season tickets,VIP boxes, game packages etc, will be null & void.

4. They will not be allowed any credit facilities,so it will be 'cash only' gates at Ibrox.

5. Rangers faxed a letter to the bank yesterday,saying that Liverpool made a ?9M bid for Jelavic so that they could register him as a ?9M asset with the bank.

 

Apparently Kenny Dalglish went nuts as no such offer was made by Liverpool. They are consulting their lawyers &

considering legal action.

 

Which would then make people who have purchased these creditors too I would guess.

 

If this was to be true, things could get very interesting down Ibrox way.

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Just heard this, but not sure if its 100% true on not, but here goes:

1. It has been confirmed that Rangers' bank accounts have been frozen by the bank today.

2. If they don't pay HMRC the small bill that they owe them by Monday, they will be placed into administration. The big bill is still pending.

3. Should that happen all season tickets,VIP boxes, game packages etc, will be null & void.

4. They will not be allowed any credit facilities,so it will be 'cash only' gates at Ibrox.

5. Rangers faxed a letter to the bank yesterday,saying that Liverpool made a ?9M bid for Jelavic so that they could register him as a ?9M asset with the bank.

 

Apparently Kenny Dalglish went nuts as no such offer was made by Liverpool. They are consulting their lawyers &

considering legal action.

 

Hmmm......

Not convinced Floyd, as I can't see their situation deteriorating that badly, that quickly. :unsure:

 

It would be amusing though...:whistling:

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I'm not overly convinced myself which is why I said at the very start I didn't know if it was 100% true or not.

 

Thought I would post it anyways.

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Just heard this, but not sure if its 100% true on not, but here goes:

1. It has been confirmed that Rangers' bank accounts have been frozen by the bank today.

2. If they don't pay HMRC the small bill that they owe them by Monday, they will be placed into administration. The big bill is still pending.

3. Should that happen all season tickets,VIP boxes, game packages etc, will be null & void.

4. They will not be allowed any credit facilities,so it will be 'cash only' gates at Ibrox.

5. Rangers faxed a letter to the bank yesterday,saying that Liverpool made a ?9M bid for Jelavic so that they could register him as a ?9M asset with the bank.

 

Apparently Kenny Dalglish went nuts as no such offer was made by Liverpool. They are consulting their lawyers &

considering legal action.

 

Like you, not sure I believe this, but if this were to happen I'd be absolutely delighted. :)

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I'm not overly convinced myself which is why I said at the very start I didn't know if it was 100% true or not.

 

Thought I would post it anyways.

 

No problem, as I said, no matter how likely / unlikely, it would be amusing if it did happen. :thumb:

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Would certainly make me laugh uncontrollably!

 

Probably stil wouldn't see The Daily Ranger with the badge with a crack through it tho.......

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ToadKiller Dog

Would certainly make me laugh uncontrollably!

 

Probably stil wouldn't see The Daily Ranger with the badge with a crack through it tho.......

 

The daily ****** Would lead with Brave gers aim to defeat greedy tax man and why all clubs should back them.

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Just heard this, but not sure if its 100% true on not, but here goes:

1. It has been confirmed that Rangers' bank accounts have been frozen by the bank today.

2. If they don't pay HMRC the small bill that they owe them by Monday, they will be placed into administration. The big bill is still pending.

3. Should that happen all season tickets,VIP boxes, game packages etc, will be null & void.

4. They will not be allowed any credit facilities,so it will be 'cash only' gates at Ibrox.

5. Rangers faxed a letter to the bank yesterday,saying that Liverpool made a ?9M bid for Jelavic so that they could register him as a ?9M asset with the bank.

 

Apparently Kenny Dalglish went nuts as no such offer was made by Liverpool. They are consulting their lawyers &

considering legal action.

 

Oh please be true!

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The daily ****** Would lead with Brave gers aim to defeat greedy tax man and why all clubs should back them.

 

 

The SFA and SPL are currently looking at a plan whereby all the other clubs home receipts should be donated to to "Save the Gers" Fund!

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Just heard this, but not sure if its 100% true on not, but here goes:

1. It has been confirmed that Rangers' bank accounts have been frozen by the bank today.

2. If they don't pay HMRC the small bill that they owe them by Monday, they will be placed into administration. The big bill is still pending.

3. Should that happen all season tickets,VIP boxes, game packages etc, will be null & void.

4. They will not be allowed any credit facilities,so it will be 'cash only' gates at Ibrox.

5. Rangers faxed a letter to the bank yesterday,saying that Liverpool made a ?9M bid for Jelavic so that they could register him as a ?9M asset with the bank.

 

Apparently Kenny Dalglish went nuts as no such offer was made by Liverpool. They are consulting their lawyers &

considering legal action.

Just heard this -- know its 100% true-- see below

1. Rangers bank accounts have not been frozen

2. The money for the 'small bill' has already been ring fenced from their account

3. Packages etc utter tosh and nonsense

4. What credit facilities as they have no debt with any bank -- debt held by chairman.

5. They did not fax any letter and you don't know Kenny Dalglish and once more there is no bank debt.

 

PS Get a real life instead of a fantasy one-- stop leading people on false trails with lies and mis-information.

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Just heard this -- know its 100% true-- see below

1. Rangers bank accounts have not been frozen

2. The money for the 'small bill' has already been ring fenced from their account

3. Packages etc utter tosh and nonsense

4. What credit facilities as they have no debt with any bank -- debt held by chairman.

5. They did not fax any letter and you don't know Kenny Dalglish and once more there is no bank debt.

 

PS Get a real life instead of a fantasy one-- stop leading people on false trails with lies and mis-information.

 

 

Or should I say the pattern is protecting the hun by shooting down any poster saying anything against them?

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Postscript

 

 

 

I've just heard that the SFA are quadrupling Vlad's usual fines and just to prove that they're not trying to make money out of Hearts for the blazers jaunts, the whole amount will go to the "Save the Gers" Fund!

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PS Get a real life instead of a fantasy one-- stop leading people on false trails with lies and mis-information.

 

Jesus Christ! You have such a chip on your shoulder that I hear Harry Ramsdens are getting concerned!!

 

At what point did I say this was true? I said at the outset that I wasn't sure of the accuracy, and if you had bothered taking your blue tinted specs off and read the whole thread you would see that on many posts after that I again stated I wasn't sure how accurate it was.

 

You seem to have a huge unhealty obsession with what's going on or allegedly going on over Govan way, you worried that you won't have a club to continue to defend if these rumours are true?

 

You are the one who should be getting a life instead of trawling round the Internet looking for threads to post on criticising other people for daring to have an opinion different from yours.

 

Maybe your fantasy life has you as a season ticket holder at Ibrox, if it does, why not go and get one instead of pretending to be a Jambo?

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Jesus Christ! You have such a chip on your shoulder that I hear Harry Ramsdens are getting concerned!!

 

At what point did I say this was true? I said at the outset that I wasn't sure of the accuracy, and if you had bothered taking your blue tinted specs off and read the whole thread you would see that on many posts after that I again stated I wasn't sure how accurate it was.

 

You seem to have a huge unhealty obsession with what's going on or allegedly going on over Govan way, you worried that you won't have a club to continue to defend if these rumours are true?

 

You are the one who should be getting a life instead of trawling round the Internet looking for threads to post on criticising other people for daring to have an opinion different from yours.

 

Maybe your fantasy life has you as a season ticket holder at Ibrox, if it does, why not go and get one instead of pretending to be a Jambo?

 

:thumbsup:

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Drylaw Hearts

Postscript

 

 

 

I've just heard that the SFA are quadrupling Vlad's usual fines and just to prove that they're not trying to make money out of Hearts for the blazers jaunts, the whole amount will go to the "Save the Gers" Fund!

 

It's just not funny.

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Footballfirst

It is now being reported by P.Mc that Martin Bain applied to have RFC's account arrested during the summer in connection with his dispute with the club, but was refused.

 

I think that we are getting closer to identifying the source of a lot of the leaked information from Ibrokes, and it isn't HMRC. MB is clearly not a happy chappie with CW.

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Maybe your fantasy life has you as a season ticket holder at Ibrox, if it does, why not go and get one instead of pretending to be a Jambo?

 

:unsure: I presumed he was just our resident Rangers fan, like WeeRobbo's our Hibby. :huh:

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Guest Bilel Mohsni

Current affairs football story involving a club that most Hearts fans really dislike (your good self excluded obviously Andy Gray) being posted on on a football forum and surprise surprise... The posters involved are indulging in a few digs. Yeah, I must go out and but a 0-7 teeshirt for all the posters involved. Oh and of course it is a bit Hibs.net... Its a erm... Football message and discussion board. :o

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Mr Romanov Saviour of HMFC

Current affairs football story involving a club that most Hearts fans really dislike (your good self excluded obviously Andy Gray) being posted on on a football forum and surprise surprise... The posters involved are indulging in a few digs. Yeah, I must go out and but a 0-7 teeshirt for all the posters involved. Oh and of course it is a bit Hibs.net... Its a erm... Football message and discussion board. :o

 

Don't mock Sergey when he does the same thing then.

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Francis Albert

Just heard this -- know its 100% true-- see below

1. Rangers bank accounts have not been frozen

2. The money for the 'small bill' has already been ring fenced from their account

3. Packages etc utter tosh and nonsense

4. What credit facilities as they have no debt with any bank -- debt held by chairman.

5. They did not fax any letter and you don't know Kenny Dalglish and once more there is no bank debt.

 

PS Get a real life instead of a fantasy one-- stop leading people on false trails with lies and mis-information.

 

Is "ring fenced" a nice way of saying that that amount has been frozen?

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Francis Albert

:mellow:

Don't mock Sergey when he does the same thing then.

 

Is this a new rule? We are not allowed to be biased, partisan or inconsistent? That should certainly quieten things down a bit.

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Mr Romanov Saviour of HMFC

:mellow:

 

Is this a new rule? We are not allowed to be biased, partisan or inconsistent? That should certainly quieten things down a bit.

 

It's not a rule, Franny.

 

Just don't mean when people point out you are a hypocrite. :)

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It is now being reported by P.Mc that Martin Bain applied to have RFC's account arrested during the summer in connection with his dispute with the club, but was refused.

 

I think that we are getting closer to identifying the source of a lot of the leaked information from Ibrokes, and it isn't HMRC. MB is clearly not a happy chappie with CW.

Do they still do arrestments in Scotland?

 

If so it would seem plausible that HMRC asked for one which was granted. As Rangers had money in their accounts that amount would have to be set aside by their bank until resolved.

 

If their bank account was in credit by less than the amount served, all possible monies would be debited leaving them with a nil balance.

 

If you run in overdraft then no monies can be set aside even with plenty credit free.

The creditor would then have to consider mire serious actions.

 

It would seem HMRC must have some knowledge of Rangers bank position.

And Bain with no real justification for the court to allow his request to proceed.

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