Footballfirst Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 This has got me thinking. Footballfirst can maybe confirm, but I've heard that Rankgers have banned away supporters from attending U19 games at Murray Park. Opposition club officials only. Tryin to hide what will become their first team come January! GIRFUY orks! No problem getting into Murray Park. I was there a few weeks ago. It's at Lennoxtown where there's a problem. Normally away club officials and players' family members only. Access is controlled through electric gates and a telecom system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drylaw Hearts Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Just out of interest Drylaw, in the days running up to 3rd May 1986, did you go round saying "We'll blow it" constantly? No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 No. When did your pessimistic outlook on life creep in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drylaw Hearts Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 When did your pessimistic outlook on life creep in? Pessimistic ? You think Rangers will finish outwith the top 2 then ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VALDOS Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Maybe its because I'm quite an optimistic person but if this happened I don't think they will for sure finish top 2, they'll have 10 points off, have to sell all their best players, probably release a bunch of others as their wage bill is probably quite high. If that happened this week then we would be 4 points behind 1st place, and 1 point behind rangers and celtic. That would give us massive incentive and down the line every other team confidence that they would be able to beat such a weakened team. I think teams already feel this way with celtic. If admistration happened I don't think for a second they will definately still finish 1st or 2nd. I wouldn't even say it they would mostly likely finish 1st or 2nd The reality is there would probably be no more than 1 or 2 leaving in the january window, its not a time that teams look to do much business, even for bargains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Pessimistic ? You think Rangers will finish outwith the top 2 then ? I actually think that if the Revenue win the case that Rangers could be liquidated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamboinglasgow Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Pessimistic ? You think Rangers will finish outwith the top 2 then ? If they are forced to sack a number of players by going into administration, sell others and play a team which is mainly youngsters, yes I think it is very possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drylaw Hearts Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 I actually think that if the Revenue win the case that Rangers could be liquidated. I just can't see Rangers going under. Btw..... If I'm right does that still make me a pessimist ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drylaw Hearts Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 If they are forced to sack a number of players by going into administration, sell others and play a team which is mainly youngsters, yes I think it is very possible. I suppose time will tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanjambo Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 If Rangers had to sell Jelavic, Davis, Naismith and McGregor, they'd still have a decent team. But it wouldn't be a strong team and I'd be confident that we, and others, would beat them. The ten point deduction and the pressure from the stands will also donfor them. Unfortunately Celtic would win the league comfortably. I hate them but I can't see them continuing to play as badly as they have been. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 I just can't see Rangers going under. Btw..... If I'm right does that still make me a pessimist ? Maybe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllyjamboDerbyshire Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 If they are forced to sack a number of players by going into administration, sell others and play a team which is mainly youngsters, yes I think it is very possible. The only thing Rangers will definitely lose if they go into administration is 10 points. The whole point of administration is to try to save an insolvent company. Whyte wants to go into administration, it's been his plan all along, and knows there is a chance Rangers will come out of administration stronger than they go in. There is a chance, I don't know how slim, that even if they lose the ?49m appeal, they will come out with a debt of around ?25m with all assets, including players, intact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 My understanding is that If they go into administration before the FTT reports, then the administrator has a decision to make whether or not to continue the appeal to the FTT (it will cost money they don't have in legal fees to do so). If they abandon the appeal, then the bill will then crystalise and will be due to be paid, in full together with interest and penalties. Any thought that it will be a simple administration, 10 point deduction, then carry on unhindered, then I think is understating the problem that RFC are in. As BBC financial pundit Douglas Fraser said in a guarded way on yesterday's Newsnight, if Rangers go into Administration it will get "messy" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllyjamboDerbyshire Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 My understanding is that If they go into administration before the FTT reports, then the administrator has a decision to make whether or not to continue the appeal to the FTT (it will cost money they don't have in legal fees to do so). If they abandon the appeal, then the bill will then crystalise and will be due to be paid, in full together with interest and penalties. Any thought that it will be a simple administration, 10 point deduction, then carry on unhindered, then I think is understating the problem that RFC are in. As BBC financial pundit Douglas Fraser said in a guarded way on yesterday's Newsnight, if Rangers go into Administration it will get "messy" I don't understand it, but as has been pointed out on another thread, Rangers, or rather Whyte, will be looking to utilise a process called 'pre-pack administration'. I've looked it up, and it does work for some companies. Hopefully, the fact HMRC stand to lose a lot of money could make it very difficult for Whyte to succeed, but, as I said in an earlier post, they could come out laughing all the way to the bank. The mess Rangers are in has nothing to do with mismanagement or overpaying players, it's down to cheating, not just HMRC but the whole of Scottish football. Whatever the result of administration, or, hopefully, liquidation, I hope they will be hung out to dry, but sadly know they won't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 I don't understand it, but as has been pointed out on another thread, Rangers, or rather Whyte, will be looking to utilise a process called 'pre-pack administration'. I've looked it up, and it does work for some companies. Hopefully, the fact HMRC stand to lose a lot of money could make it very difficult for Whyte to succeed, but, as I said in an earlier post, they could come out laughing all the way to the bank. The mess Rangers are in has nothing to do with mismanagement or overpaying players, it's down to cheating, not just HMRC but the whole of Scottish football. Whatever the result of administration, or, hopefully, liquidation, I hope they will be hung out to dry, but sadly know they won't. Pre-pack wouldn't apply if the Revenue win the case. They could veto it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harry Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Could they not just sell obrox?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllyjamboDerbyshire Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Pre-pack wouldn't apply if the Revenue win the case. They could veto it. I hope you're right, but how do you know this? If Rangers go into administration on Thursday, as I expect they will, if they've got the 'pre-pack' set up already, as I'm sure they will, the football club will be under new ownership before the case come to court, and HMRC will be suing the old company, which will have next to no assets. Please tell me you're a red hot insolvency expert and that I'm wrong. I'll sleep a lot better if you do PS I'm not getting at you, or anyone else who thinks they (Rangers) are doomed. I'm just a natural pessimist and would have topped myself by now if I was Gers fan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 This is getting "messy". My last post was referring to an Administrator trying to keep the club as a going concern.. The Pre-Pack process effectively means killing off the old company (and its debts) and the new company buys most of the tangible assets, e.g. Ibrox, Murray Park, with any money raised paying off the debt to CW. If there is an excess then the other creditors can put in a claim at that stage. However if the original team becomess defunct mid season and are not in a position to fulfil their fixtures, then they would be expelled from the league. The new company cannot automatically replace the old company unless the SFA and SPL come to some accommodation within their rules, or re-write themto allow it to happen. (e.g. It will need a 10-1 vote in the SPL to admit them as a new team). Player contracts would become null and void. The newco could offer the old players new contracts but would they take them if they could get a better deal as a free agent elsewhere. If the SPL/SFA do the dirty and allow a new company to continue virtually unscathed, then HMRC will probably go after the new company as being a "pheonix" of the old one and therefore should be held as liable for the old company's debt. It would probably involve a whole new legal process to prove that the old and new companies were one and the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 The only veto HMRC may have is if there is an attempt among creditors to agree a CVA. That is the traditional way out of administration for football clubs. If HMRC hold 25% or more of the debt held by unsecured creditors, then they have the power of veto. If they exercise it, then the club would be wound up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bickfest Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 This is getting "messy". My last post was referring to an Administrator trying to keep the club as a going concern.. The Pre-Pack process effectively means killing off the old company (and its debts) and the new company buys most of the tangible assets, e.g. Ibrox, Murray Park, with any money raised paying off the debt to CW. If there is an excess then the other creditors can put in a claim at that stage. However if the original team becomess defunct mid season and are not in a position to fulfil their fixtures, then they would be expelled from the league. The new company cannot automatically replace the old company unless the SFA and SPL come to some accommodation within their rules, or re-write themto allow it to happen. (e.g. It will need a 10-1 vote in the SPL to admit them as a new team). Player contracts would become null and void. The newco could offer the old players new contracts but would they take them if they could get a better deal as a free agent elsewhere. If the SPL/SFA do the dirty and allow a new company to continue virtually unscathed, then HMRC will probably go after the new company as being a "pheonix" of the old one and therefore should be held as liable for the old company's debt. It would probably involve a whole new legal process to prove that the old and new companies were one and the same. In addition, the insolvency practitioner has to be able to demonstrate to the Court that the assets were properly marketed and that the price paid by "Newco" was the best that could reasonably be expected. The marketable assets would include Ibrox & land plus player registrations (which would be assessed individually). There may be some other parties interested in those assets........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DETTY29 Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 In addition, the insolvency practitioner has to be able to demonstrate to the Court that the assets were properly marketed and that the price paid by "Newco" was the best that could reasonably be expected. The marketable assets would include Ibrox & land plus player registrations (which would be assessed individually). There may be some other parties interested in those assets........ Rather flipitantly, is it good or bad that Andy Goram values Allan McGregor at ?20m - despite getting worse by the game. Another flap at a cross under no pressure on Saturday. Didn't cost a goal so can't go down as an error, I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllyjamboDerbyshire Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 The only veto HMRC may have is if there is an attempt among creditors to agree a CVA. That is the traditional way out of administration for football clubs. If HMRC hold 25% or more of the debt held by unsecured creditors, then they have the power of veto. If they exercise it, then the club would be wound up. Believe me, I hope you are right. Not just because I hate Rangers, but because I would hate to think somone like Craig Whyte could screw so many small businesses, and HMRC. And then going unpunished by the SFA/SPL, as they surely will be, for cheating every team they played while fielding the players involved in the scam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Das Root Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 If the SFA / SPL allowed hun v2.0 back in with no problem, I can only expect Gretna to immediately sue...plus any other club with considerable debts to do the same. How would that work with UEFA / FIFA rules? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bickfest Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 The only veto HMRC may have is if there is an attempt among creditors to agree a CVA. That is the traditional way out of administration for football clubs. If HMRC hold 25% or more of the debt held by unsecured creditors, then they have the power of veto. If they exercise it, then the club would be wound up. Not quite true. With a prepack, there is always a risk that a quick sale, especially to connected parties may be challenged - whether by a liquidator, creditors or other potential purchasers if the insolvency practitioner is unable to demonstrate that he obtained the best price available in all the circumstances. To avoid such a challenge, the insolvency practitioner would need to be able to provide clear evidence of recent and consistent active attempts to sell the business and assets together with vouched evidence of its value and the risk that would be posed to that value by marketing the business openly. I believe that, if HMRC win the case, Rangers will go down. Mr Whyte, however, will not lose, since he has not risked any money yet (which may be why MIM are seeking to enforce aspects of the sale agreement, requiring Whyte to put in significant new working capital). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllyjamboDerbyshire Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Not quite true. With a prepack, there is always a risk that a quick sale, especially to connected parties may be challenged - whether by a liquidator, creditors or other potential purchasers if the insolvency practitioner is unable to demonstrate that he obtained the best price available in all the circumstances. To avoid such a challenge, the insolvency practitioner would need to be able to provide clear evidence of recent and consistent active attempts to sell the business and assets together with vouched evidence of its value and the risk that would be posed to that value by marketing the business openly. I believe that, if HMRC win the case, Rangers will go down. Mr Whyte, however, will not lose, since he has not risked any money yet (which may be why MIM are seeking to enforce aspects of the sale agreement, requiring Whyte to put in significant new working capital). I do so hope you are right. I'm certain Whyte came into this fully intending to take Rangers into administration knowing there was always the chance he could pull a fast one and 'save' Rangers while making a packet for himself. I'm also 100% certain he will not lose a penny no matter what happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gasman Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 If the SFA / SPL allowed hun v2.0 back in with no problem, I can only expect Gretna to immediately sue...plus any other club with considerable debts to do the same. How would that work with UEFA / FIFA rules? I can't see the SFA/SFL doing this, but even if they do, don't forget that in this scenario Hun v2.0 has no players. They can't sign anyone "new" until the January window, and the (now ex) Rangers players are all free agents, so can go where they want, when they want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spleedoink Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Sorry but as sad as it is, Rangers going bust would kill the Scottish game. Get a grip. They and that other mob fae the Old Firm,are a cancer to Scottish Football. Hearts,Hobos,Sheep,dinnae support that belief. Let them die,lets hope they lose every thing. Money,support,all their hopes,and their poison,Brilliant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wibble Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 I can't see the SFA/SFL doing this, but even if they do, don't forget that in this scenario Hun v2.0 has no players. They can't sign anyone "new" until the January window, and the (now ex) Rangers players are all free agents, so can go where they want, when they want. I could see Rangers getting themselves into a position of mathematical points safety then pulling the pin. With a quick re-invention they could coast to the end of the season and stay safe then find a buyer over the summer to come in with cash for a new team for the 2012-13 season. This would all rely on the kindness of the other member clubs of the SPL - but going by past votes I doubt there'd be much in the way of refusals. I'd like to think that Vlad would tell them to GTF (or at least get a cast iron guarantee that we could pull the same stunt). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stanley_ Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 If Rangers go out of business then AFC Rangers will be in the third division next season and back in the SPL after three straight promotions. Still, it would be great to see them go out of business and have to start again from scratch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gasman Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 I just can't see Rangers going under. Btw..... If I'm right does that still make me a pessimist ? Yes! Just means you would've been right to be so pessimistic DH. Nothing personal, but hopefully you're wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambof3tornado Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 If rangers did drop out the spl it would be a fantastic opportunity to change the stupid voting system we have in place(you know the one where if rangers and celtic dont like something it doesnt get passed!!) FTR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Templeton Peck Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Can anyone conform if it was pay at the gate tonight? And will the cash be declared Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floyd Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Can anyone conform if it was pay at the gate tonight? And will the cash be declared Was pay at the gate for the game tonight for non ST holders, ?25 adults, ST holders who booked in advance got in for ?20. Your guess is as good as mine about the cash though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I.T.K Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 If rangers did drop out the spl it would be a fantastic opportunity to change the stupid voting system we have in place(you know the one where if rangers and celtic dont like something it doesnt get passed!!) FTR I posted this before,,, it would be a great opportunity for change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToadKiller Dog Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Was pay at the gate for the game tonight for non ST holders, ?25 adults, ST holders who booked in advance got in for ?20. Your guess is as good as mine about the cash though! The money from the game is to go to both the ibrox and hillsbourgh charities .so if Whyte dips into that then shit would not look good for the ugly ones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kennyblack'sshot Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 If rangers did drop out the spl it would be a fantastic opportunity to change the stupid voting system we have in place(you know the one where if rangers and celtic dont like something it doesnt get passed!!) FTR I think if Rangers go down, Celtic would immediately step up their shameless pimping of themselves out to the English league and might have more of a chance without their other half. All good in my opinion. The rest of the league would have three seasons to try finishing second or even challenge Celtic before Rangers 2.0 get back in to the SPL (just watch all the rules change to allow them as easy a passage as possible). Dundee Ud, Aberdeen and Hibs owners might even be persuaded to put some money in to their teams for a change and all SPL clubs would be more attractive to possible new owners with a much higher chance of European football. And Vlad would not be able to stop laughing for decades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
world_3 Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 In addition, the insolvency practitioner has to be able to demonstrate to the Court that the assets were properly marketed and that the price paid by "Newco" was the best that could reasonably be expected. The marketable assets would include Ibrox & land plus player registrations (which would be assessed individually). There may be some other parties interested in those assets........ Maybe Vlad will step in and buy Ibrox. And hopefully bulldoze it to the ground shortly afterwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmyshoes Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 As funny as it would be... Can we afford for rangers to go bust.. I'm pretty sure that most clubs outwith the old firm need the tv money... And I'm also pretty sure that sky (and setanta) only pay the money they do because of they two.. Now if one was to go I'm not sure you would ever get the same money again and therefore more clubs fold.. Is it just me thinking this ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bickfest Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Maybe Vlad will step in and buy Ibrox. And hopefully bulldoze it to the ground shortly afterwards. How amusing would it be to be Rangers' landlords???? (And not just for us ...... ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingantti1874 Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 As funny as it would be... Can we afford for rangers to go bust.. I'm pretty sure that most clubs outwith the old firm need the tv money... And I'm also pretty sure that sky (and setanta) only pay the money they do because of they two.. Now if one was to go I'm not sure you would ever get the same money again and therefore more clubs fold.. Is it just me thinking this ??? Well we get about a million a year from tv - if that halved then I doubt it's be much of a problem... Plus, we'd have a better chance of winning things so attendances would go up IMO... I don think we'd be adversely affected.. Some clubs maybe - however if your dependent on the old firm to survive then probably best if you do go bust - what's the point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim747 Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 The downside would be some of their filthy fans buying season tickets at tynecastle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floyd Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 The downside would be some of their filthy fans buying season tickets at tynecastle. I doubt they would buy season tickets to be honest, occasional attendance at bigger games but I doubt season tickets. After all they did say that they would go all the way to Dublin to follow follow their team did they not?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmyshoes Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Re Kingantti1874 Point would be no league if all these teams are dependent on the TV money... I understand winning puts bums on seats but if you say we get a million just now and if that halves.. Then that's our costs needed to be reduced by another half mil.. It'll Just be like a line of domino's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Re Kingantti1874 Point would be no league if all these teams are dependent on the TV money... I understand winning puts bums on seats but if you say we get a million just now and if that halves.. Then that's our costs needed to be reduced by another half mil.. It'll Just be like a line of domino's So by that line of thinking, when the gruesomes sabre rattle about leaving Scottish football, we should just bow down at their feet? OFGTF and grow a pair! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingantti1874 Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Re Kingantti1874 Point would be no league if all these teams are dependent on the TV money... I understand winning puts bums on seats but if you say we get a million just now and if that halves.. Then that's our costs needed to be reduced by another half mil.. It'll Just be like a line of domino's Understand what your saying, but the number of clubs in Scotland could do with being paired back... If we went from 40 to 30 or 20 that would be good in the long term IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trotter Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Re Kingantti1874 Point would be no league if all these teams are dependent on the TV money... I understand winning puts bums on seats but if you say we get a million just now and if that halves.. Then that's our costs needed to be reduced by another half mil.. It'll Just be like a line of domino's But if you factor in the costs involved of hosting either of the Uglies at Tynecastle (or any other away ground for that matter (extra stewards, police, etc) for two games a season each then that half million gets eaten up very quickly. And seeing as we've (rightfully) cut their allocation you can't even say that the additional ticket sales even it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Grimes Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 I just can't see Rangers going under. Btw..... If I'm right does that still make me a pessimist ? depends. how optimistic are you that you're correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie-Brown Posted October 19, 2011 Author Share Posted October 19, 2011 Even IF rangers don't go under they face some major challenges and headaches to be able to continue as they are. 1. If they cannot even afford to pay their bills now before the big tax case hits and Craig Whyte states that they urgently need to reduce the wage bill by approx ?7M then they are facing a clear out of higher earners in january or next summer to bring the wage bill back into order. 2. Who will provide the funding to get them through to the end of the season if the hole in their finances is at least ?10M possibly ?20M due to no european money - the only way they can make good that sort of money is to sell anyone of value in January 3. IF the big tax bill lands then Rangers FC are fecked, they cannot carry on so they have a choice - fold all the assets into a new company and the current company would eventually be liquidated. The problem for a new company route is that under current rules SPL membership, SFA membership and player contracts are not easily transferable nor is obtaining a uefa license under these circumstances. 4. Who would provide the on-going financial requirement of a new Rangers company given the current RFC is struggling to meet it's financial commitments before any big tax bill lands? There are no easy or painless answers for them unless there is a big influx of new money from somewhere AND the tax-payers (you & me) get royally shafted by RFC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
connlach Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Why do you think they did not punt jellyfish in the Summer, if the massive offers are to be believed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bilel Mohsni Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Why do you think they did not punt jellyfish in the Summer, if the massive offers are to be believed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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