Israel and Palestine

[Gundermann]

This wouldn't surprise me.

 

[Sooperstar]

I thought it was fairly clear that Ked was not saying that he shared those views and that he was actually defending Jewish folks. 

[ƒιѕнρℓαρѕ]

16 minutes ago, Ked said:

I was trying to equate that with what drives Israel and its hardliners.

Jews were not just persecuted by Hitlers Germany.

 

 

Nowt wrong with what you said mate

[Victorian]

4 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Over 100 children have been killed by the Israelis.

 

While people defend them.

 

How many Russian children have the Ukrainians murdered?

 

Just dealing in the facts.

 

Well I'm not defending anyone.  That's another fact.

[JudyJudyJudy]

9 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Over 100 children have been killed by the Israelis.

 

While people defend them.

 

How many Russian children have the Ukrainians murdered?

 

Just dealing in the facts.

It’s sickening . 

[AlphonseCapone]

18 minutes ago, Sooperstar said:

I thought it was fairly clear that Ked was not saying that he shared those views and that he was actually defending Jewish folks. 

 

I thought it was clear too. Emotions just running high.

[AlphonseCapone]

I remember reading a wee while ago about the difference between nationality and citizenship in Israel and other countries and what that means for people's ability to move there. It's actually really interesting if anyone is looking for something to read about.

[doctor jambo]

Could the UN not take control of Gaza , a peacekeeper force ?

Someone has to stop what is looking like an imminent ground invasion.

Mind you, Afghan and Iraq didn’t work out so it’s probably not worth doing when Gaza is a hotbed of hate filled bangers that does need this rooted out, but how to do it without killing masses of civilians is beyond me.

[Taffin]

44 minutes ago, Sooperstar said:

I thought it was fairly clear that Ked was not saying that he shared those views and that he was actually defending Jewish folks. 

 

It was really quite clear, the ott reaction was out of order imo.

Edited October 10, 2023 by Taffin

[Cruyff]

11 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

Could the UN not take control of Gaza , a peacekeeper force ?

Someone has to stop what is looking like an imminent ground invasion.

Mind you, Afghan and Iraq didn’t work out so it’s probably not worth doing when Gaza is a hotbed of hate filled bangers that does need this rooted out, but how to do it without killing masses of civilians is beyond me.

The International Community should've drawn up physical borders and given Palestinians statehood. They've had decades to sort this out. 

[il Duce McTarkin]

5 minutes ago, Taffin said:

 

It was really quite clear, the ott reaction was out of order imo.

 

Cool heads required.

[Spellczech]

11 hours ago, SectionDJambo said:

Whatever any of us may think about the way the Israelis have treated the Palestinian people over the years, what Hamas has done here will cause more pain and misery to those poor people who have the misfortune to live in Gaza. Hamas has given no thought whatsoever to the welfare of the people who they claim to represent. They don’t care. They’re just a bunch of gangsters using religion as an excuse to murder innocent people and cause the deaths of many more.

 

Took a long time for the Northern Irish to recognise that same...and they are (arguably) a far less hot-headed people. Ironically it was only the advent of peace which proved it, as many of the terrorists reverted to be straight up gangsters, preying on their own neighbourhoods...

[AndyNic]

So are we pro Israel here or Pro Palestine?

[Victorian]

5 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

Could the UN not take control of Gaza , a peacekeeper force ?

Someone has to stop what is looking like an imminent ground invasion.

Mind you, Afghan and Iraq didn’t work out so it’s probably not worth doing when Gaza is a hotbed of hate filled bangers that does need this rooted out, but how to do it without killing masses of civilians is beyond me.

 

If there was somewhere for the Palestinians to go then the best idea would be to systematically disperse the population of Gaza.  Disperse the 2M+ people across other locations within Israel and transform the Gaza Strip from the ghetto it is.  Rebuild Gaza and build many more new towns for the Palestinians.  Completely transform the living conditions of the Palestinians and make it more difficult for Hamas to embed itself within them,  thus making it easier to go after Hamas when required.  Disrupt and hopefully break the ability of Hamas to use the Palestinians as human collateral.

 

The cycle is Hamas finding it easy to embed itself among civilians and making it virtually impossible for Israel to go after them with anything other than indiscriminate air strikes,  thus creating a never ending animosity towards Israel and providing Hamas with a never ending supply of fighters.  That cycle has to be smashed somehow.  Hamas will continue to exist and be the proxy of Iran but somehow the rules of the game need to be changed.  Because the cycle of violence is being played by the preferred rules of Hamas and Iran.  Only bringing Hamas out from behind the shield of civilians can break the cycle.

[Cade]

25 minutes ago, AndyNic said:

So are we pro Israel here or Pro Palestine?

 

Neither.

Both sides are arseholes and commit indiscriminate mass killing of civilians as routine action.

 

 

[il Duce McTarkin]

2 minutes ago, Cade said:

 

Neither.

Both sides are arseholes and commit indiscriminate mass killing of civilians as routine action.

 

 

 

[Boab]

16 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

If there was somewhere for the Palestinians to go then the best idea would be to systematically disperse the population of Gaza.  Disperse the 2M+ people across other locations within Israel and transform the Gaza Strip from the ghetto it is.  Rebuild Gaza and build many more new towns for the Palestinians.  Completely transform the living conditions of the Palestinians and make it more difficult for Hamas to embed itself within them,  thus making it easier to go after Hamas when required.  Disrupt and hopefully break the ability of Hamas to use the Palestinians as human collateral.

 

The cycle is Hamas finding it easy to embed itself among civilians and making it virtually impossible for Israel to go after them with anything other than indiscriminate air strikes,  thus creating a never ending animosity towards Israel and providing Hamas with a never ending supply of fighters.  That cycle has to be smashed somehow.  Hamas will continue to exist and be the proxy of Iran but somehow the rules of the game need to be changed.  Because the cycle of violence is being played by the preferred rules of Hamas and Iran.  Only bringing Hamas out from behind the shield of civilians can break the cycle.

Problem is, Hamas are the majority in the parliament and will continue to be so. It’s pretty depressing because, if they outlawed Hamas, another entity would rise under a different name. 
No easy way out of this democratically speaking. It will be even more entrenched after the killing spree at the moment. 
Hezbollah will enter this shortly and the shit will really hit the fan. A tragedy for the Middle East.

[Boof]

38 minutes ago, AndyNic said:

So are we pro Israel here or Pro Palestine?

 

Personally I'm pro-people not getting killed.

[XB52]

2 hours ago, doctor jambo said:

Are the non Jews who live in Israel descriminated against?

I genuinely don’t know, but I doubt it.

israel has a large non Jew population who presumably vote etc and have jobs and freedoms they don’t have were they to relocate to any abutting nation.

They have limited rights but only Jews have full rights. And of course that's not counting the Palestinians in the West Bank who have next to no rights as they are under illegal(in international law) occupation

[doctor jambo]

Here is a daft suggestion.

Could we not just move the Palestinians from Gaza to the West Bank , and the Israelis from the west bank to Gaza ?

then you have a Palestinian country ?

is that too obvious?

[Victorian]

3 minutes ago, Boab said:

Problem is, Hamas are the majority in the parliament and will continue to be so. It’s pretty depressing because, if they outlawed Hamas, another entity would rise under a different name. 
No easy way out of this democratically speaking. It will be even more entrenched after the killing spree at the moment. 
Hezbollah will enter this shortly and the shit will really hit the fan. A tragedy for the Middle East.

 

I really don't see any other way than a systematic assimilation of the Palestinians into Israel more widely,  thus Hamas having nothing to govern over.  Might take decades to achieve and very probably be against the immediate wishes of everybody concerned but only on a generational basis will any change occur.  

[highlandjambo3]

2 hours ago, Victorian said:

 

No offence but I'm not getting into a trading exchange of atrocities and their comparative importance.  Children killed by both sides.

 

 

Not forgetting……children also being taught to kill by both sides.

 

when we look at the atrocities committed by both sides it’s quite sickening what they will do to each other but, one thing is fundamentally important……….they absolutely hate each other, that’s why there will be no peace EVER in that region.  Yes a ceasefire will happen at some point but, the deaths/murders on a smaller scale will continue.

[doctor jambo]

5 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

I really don't see any other way than a systematic assimilation of the Palestinians into Israel more widely,  thus Hamas having nothing to govern over.  Might take decades to achieve and very probably be against the immediate wishes of everybody concerned but only on a generational basis will any change occur.  

Move them all into the West Bank and move the Jews to Gaza.

there are 700k Israelites in the West Bank and East Jerusalem , presumably in big properties , 2 million Palestinians in Gaza stacked like Islamist Jenga.

Get Nick Knowles in to arrange the house swaps , and then it’s done , and they will all find commonality in their hatred of nick knowles

[Seaside Dave]

2 hours ago, Victorian said:

 

No offence but I'm not getting into a trading exchange of atrocities and their comparative importance.  Children killed by both sides.

 

 

Palestine also have used kids as suicide bombers. 

[JyTees]

2 hours ago, Ked said:

I was trying to equate that with what drives Israel and its hardliners.

Jews were not just persecuted by Hitlers Germany.

 

 

 

Fair enough Ked. In the cold light of day maybe I read it wrong.

[JyTees]

1 hour ago, Taffin said:

 

It was really quite clear, the ott reaction was out of order imo.

 

Not sure it was really quite clear 🤔😂

[AndyNic]

47 minutes ago, Boof said:

 

Personally I'm pro-people not getting killed.

 

Absolutely. 

 

Shameful to read people picking sides. 

[AndyNic]

1 hour ago, Cade said:

 

Neither.

Both sides are arseholes and commit indiscriminate mass killing of civilians as routine action.

 

 

 

Spot on. 

[Victorian]

The future of any incarnation of a self determining Palestinian state or authority is over.  Any such independent or autonomous state will always be hijacked and held hostage by the likes of Hamas,  working for Iran.  It's over for that future.  Sooner or later it will have to become apparent to all who want to live in peace that Palestinian independence is impossible,  and so is an Israeli that thinks peace can exist from separating itself from Palestinians.  It will take a long,  long time to convince civilians on both sides that the people who purport to govern and protect them are not providing peace and security and in the case of Hamas,  do not want peace and security.  Israel will need to essentially adopt the Palestinians into their society.  Nobody else wants them.  No peace is possible in a separate state controlled by terrorist actors.

[HeartsandonlyHearts]

2 hours ago, Ked said:

Badly worded.

I was meaning Jews have been consistently persecuted throughout history and that this perhaps explains the approach they have .

I gave the example of my grandads pal because that feeling I'm trying to think how best to describe it  was also felt by Jews.

And that's why Israel is perhaps the way it is.

Sorry was no offence intended

Then I apologise profusely. I am sorry that I jumped to a conclusion that couldn’t have been farther from the truth. Please, please don’t think I’m that guy. Have a great day.

[JudyJudyJudy]

52 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

Here is a daft suggestion.

Could we not just move the Palestinians from Gaza to the West Bank , and the Israelis from the west bank to Gaza ?

then you have a Palestinian country ?

is that too obvious?

Problem is Israel do not want to literally give an inch of land to the Palestinians . Their plan is the eradication of Palestine 🇵🇸 its genocide , albeit on a slower scale than other genocides . That scum bag “ Bibi” needs to be in the dock at The Hague 

[HeartsandonlyHearts]

9 hours ago, JyTees said:

 

You really shouldn't be trying to explain away such an horrific view point. Whether you think he's worded it badly or not, you shouldn't be excusing such ignorance. Surely it's for Ked to respond to, not you.

 

"The Jews made it easy for the Nazis". @HeartsandonlyHearts, you have absolutely nothing to be apologising for and certainly not asking for forgiveness!

I thank you for the support and understanding but in his defense I did lash out and maybe should have waited until someone like you or others brought up the post and waited for a reply to see where it went. 
Thanks.

[John Findlay]

11 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Problem is Israel do not want to literally give an inch of land to the Palestinians . Their plan is the eradication of Palestine 🇵🇸 its genocide , albeit on a slower scale than other genocides . That scum bag “ Bibi” needs to be in the dock at The Hague 

Sorry triple J but that is incorrect. It has always been an Arab goal to eradicate the state of Israel. There is no right side in this war, and a war is what it is and always has been. 

It is blind hatred on both sides and no matter who tries to broker a peace deal they are on a hiding to nothing.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

2 hours ago, doctor jambo said:

Could the UN not take control of Gaza , a peacekeeper force ?

Someone has to stop what is looking like an imminent ground invasion.

Mind you, Afghan and Iraq didn’t work out so it’s probably not worth doing when Gaza is a hotbed of hate filled bangers that does need this rooted out, but how to do it without killing masses of civilians is beyond me.

UN peacekeeping has been proven to be hopeless when circumstances actually compel them to act

[Boab]

1 hour ago, Victorian said:

 

I really don't see any other way than a systematic assimilation of the Palestinians into Israel more widely,  thus Hamas having nothing to govern over.  Might take decades to achieve and very probably be against the immediate wishes of everybody concerned but only on a generational basis will any change occur.  

Agreed. 
Completely different theatre but the 9/11 comments got me thinking about America’s actions after 9/11. To rid Afghanistan of the Taliban. Look where we are now in that country.

Pretty depressing all round right now.

[Spellczech]

2 minutes ago, Boab said:

Agreed. 
Completely different theatre but the 9/11 comments got me thinking about America’s actions after 9/11. To rid Afghanistan of the Taliban. Look where we are now in that country.

Pretty depressing all round right now.

Turned out the perps were mostly Saudi and mastermind was in Pakistan the whole time too...

[Boab]

1 minute ago, Spellczech said:

Turned out the perps were mostly Saudi and mastermind was in Pakistan the whole time too...

Yea but sorry I was going off on a tangent. The tragedy of this situation is, the main players will be reluctant to draw Iran into this. Huge pressure on the yanks to rein in the Israelis if they have designs to go after Hamas backers. A mighty mess and very worrying.

[Spellczech]

13 hours ago, jack D and coke said:

So you reckon it’s just cos they’re Israelis and Palestinians?? But in the madness of why they got this land it’s really isn’t nationalism. 
It would’ve been even crazier if they’d gave them them Uganda which was also on the cards. 
Not nationalism for me. 
It’s the promised land.
Mental to think they didn’t see the problems this would cause. 

Oh I think the UN knew, but countries did not want all the displaced Jews at the end of WW2 as they had plenty other problems too...It was the usual political solution: Quick fix today and let the next lot worry about the consequences. 

 

Remarkably similar to National Insurance you could say...

Edited October 10, 2023 by Spellczech

[Spellczech]

6 minutes ago, Boab said:

Yea but sorry I was going off on a tangent. The tragedy of this situation is, the main players will be reluctant to draw Iran into this. Huge pressure on the yanks to rein in the Israelis if they have designs to go after Hamas backers. A mighty mess and very worrying.

Well involvement of as many parties as possible, no matter which side they take, is the aim of Hamas. Ironically, getting a free pass to go in hard is exactly what the Israeli right-wing coalition wants too. Basically both sides Govts are likely very happy at the moment...It is all the rest of us watching from the wings who have a conundrum.

[Boab]

2 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

Well involvement of as many parties as possible, no matter which side they take, is the aim of Hamas. Ironically, getting a free pass to go in hard is exactly what the Israeli right-wing coalition wants too. Basically both sides Govts are likely very happy at the moment...It is all the rest of us watching from the wings who have a conundrum.

True. Every tragedy has it’s opportunities. There won’t be many government protests in Israel in the foreseeable. Might sound callous but history is repeating itself and many more will die. Horrible.

[JudyJudyJudy]

41 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

Sorry triple J but that is incorrect. It has always been an Arab goal to eradicate the state of Israel. There is no right side in this war, and a war is what it is and always has been. 

It is blind hatred on both sides and no matter who tries to broker a peace deal they are on a hiding to nothing.

Aye probably quite right but sides hate each other with a vengeance 

[XB52]

2 hours ago, doctor jambo said:

Here is a daft suggestion.

Could we not just move the Palestinians from Gaza to the West Bank , and the Israelis from the west bank to Gaza ?

then you have a Palestinian country ?

is that too obvious?

That's actually the best solution I've seen. Doubt it will ever happen though

[il Duce McTarkin]

1 hour ago, HeartsandonlyHearts said:

Then I apologise profusely. I am sorry that I jumped to a conclusion that couldn’t have been farther from the truth. Please, please don’t think I’m that guy. Have a great day.

 

Good post. It's nice to see a bit of civility on Kickback.

[Cade]

2 hours ago, doctor jambo said:

Move them all into the West Bank and move the Jews to Gaza.

there are 700k Israelites in the West Bank and East Jerusalem , presumably in big properties , 2 million Palestinians in Gaza stacked like Islamist Jenga.

Get Nick Knowles in to arrange the house swaps , and then it’s done , and they will all find commonality in their hatred of nick knowles

 

Aye and just how do you propose to remove all the Israeli heidbanger illegal settlers in the West Bank?

 

They'll never leave that land willingly. They believe God has given them that land and they are his Chosen People. 

 

[doctor jambo]

17 minutes ago, Cade said:

 

Aye and just how do you propose to remove all the Israeli heidbanger illegal settlers in the West Bank?

 

They'll never leave that land willingly. They believe God has given them that land and they are his Chosen People. 

 

Therein lies the issue.

they are all quite mad .

long time back my family used to own a chateau and vineyards in France , not too far back a large farm in the pentlands.

Indigenous peoples claim all kinds of things and demand all sorts they feel they should have from centuries ago.

Politicians fed these grudges .

Folk need to let go and look forward, they are trapping themselves.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

Manna from heaven for SHAN DOT LIARSON who is boring everyone to death on Twitter 

[ƒιѕнρℓαρѕ]

3 hours ago, doctor jambo said:

Here is a daft suggestion.

Could we not just move the Palestinians from Gaza to the West Bank , and the Israelis from the west bank to Gaza ?

then you have a Palestinian country ?

is that too obvious?

 

How would you feel about a solution that involves you giving up what you've fought tooth and nail for and being shunted across the country to a place where you have no roots? They're no chess pieces.

[JimmyCant]

2 hours ago, John Findlay said:

Sorry triple J but that is incorrect. It has always been an Arab goal to eradicate the state of Israel. There is no right side in this war, and a war is what it is and always has been. 

It is blind hatred on both sides and no matter who tries to broker a peace deal they are on a hiding to nothing.

When a state (Israel) is created by one western empire (Britain) who stole Arab land and supported and facilitated ethnic cleansing in the region between the wars, then it was supported by a Jewish dominated superpower (the Untited states) because the Jewish community in the US control the big finances and would bring the country (US) to its knees if that support wavers, its little wonder the people who had their land stolen and were ethnically cleansed, including murder, outlawed chemical weapons , starved, kidnapped, unlawfully imprisoned would call upon the Arab super powers like Iran, to protect them and help them restore what was theirs or least try to stop them being cleansed out of existence, which is the goal of the state of Israel 

[JimmyCant]

5 minutes ago, Jim_Duncan said:

Ah, I see we've gone full ****** here.

The start point of understanding why there is an unbridgeable impasse in the region is what Britain did to bring it about in the first place and who supports both sides

[doctor jambo]

12 minutes ago, ǝǝɥʇᴉɯS said:

 

How would you feel about a solution that involves you giving up what you've fought tooth and nail for and being shunted across the country to a place where you have no roots? They're no chess pieces.

If it meant my kids not being bombed to death or massacred at a rave, I’d be fine with it.

Ive moved home many times in my life for a better existence , and I’m not so entrenched with “ land of my birth “ nationalism that I wouldn’t move for safety and security.

A fresh start somewhere else?

Yes please .

Humans are migratory.

UK alone has an intake of 600 000 people per year seeking just such a thing because their lands are shit holes.