Israel and Palestine

[AlphonseCapone]

Thought there would be a catch all thread for this but couldn't find one, but merge if I just missed it.

 

Anyway, kicking off again but the attack by Hamas militants is pretty unprecedented. Maybe as many as 60 militants managed to get in South Israel, have potentially taken hostages and likey worse. Claiming to have fired around 7,500 rockets as well. Israel are usually very on top of their intelligence so this will be seen as a major failure on their part and as seems to be the case, occured around a Jewish holiday when the guard may be down. No doubt the response will be massive, worse than anything seen. Reservists being called up and calling it an act of war.

 

BBC News - Israel: Gunmen from Gaza kill at least 22 in major attack
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67036625

 

[OTT]

It looks really bad based on whats going about on twitter. 

[biglaff]

One thing is guaranteed here: this will not end well for Palestine. Israel will mount a huge attack. Seems similar to the Yom Kippur war whereby Egypt/Palestine surprises Israel with an attack, but eventually Israel wins the war albeit with territorial changes.

[JudyJudyJudy]

Israel stole their land . The “ “ Balfour declaration “ is one of the great tragedies of modern day history . Shameful . 

[Mikey1874]

12 minutes ago, biglaff said:

One thing is guaranteed here: this will not end well for Palestine. Israel will mount a huge attack. Seems similar to the Yom Kippur war whereby Egypt/Palestine surprises Israel with an attack, but eventually Israel wins the war albeit with territorial changes.

 

It's well known Israel will 'win'. But although this seems much worse than usual in terms of killings and hostages, it's just the familiar, long term pattern where there is armed resistance to the occupation. It blows up every so often. The actual actions to terrorise and dominate by Israeli settlers etc has got worse the last few years. 

 

Action, reaction. 

[Cade]

See when Israel has the most far-right, regilious fundamentalist government in its entire history?

Maybe giving them an excuse to launch a full scale genocidal war of extermination is a bad move.

Hamas are thick as feck.

I'm 100% on the side of the persecuted Palestinian people but for feck sake their militants always make the wrong moves.

Israel will use this moronic attack as an excuse to push for a final victory and occupation of all of the West Bank, and they may totally destroy Gaza this time.

[XB52]

Israel herds millions into camps and then is surprised when they fight back? Of course the Palestinians will suffer a hundred times more but they have to do something 

[Mikey1874]

If normal historical rules apply, this Israeli Government will be forced out for the worst intelligence and security failure in 60 years.

 

Maybe part of the point of it. Looking from afar the situation is absolutely desperate for much of Palestinian territory and people. So you could ask why not. 

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

It’s all going off.

 

FIGHT!

[biglaff]

33 minutes ago, Cade said:

See when Israel has the most far-right, regilious fundamentalist government in its entire history?

Maybe giving them an excuse to launch a full scale genocidal war of extermination is a bad move.

Hamas are thick as feck.

I'm 100% on the side of the persecuted Palestinian people but for feck sake their militants always make the wrong moves.

Israel will use this moronic attack as an excuse to push for a final victory and occupation of all of the West Bank, and they may totally destroy Gaza this time.

Spot on here. I saw the way the settlers in Hebron treated the local people when I visited and it was humiliating, thus I have sympathy with the Palestinians. However, this attack is crazy and I cannot support it in anyway. Sam Harris always makes good points on the situation there I feel.

[superjack]

I seen that all political leaders saying that Israel has the right to defend itself. Surely this is Palestine in the process of defending itself against Israel. Why don't they come out with statements about Palestine having the right to defend itself after more attacks from Israel.

[Australis]

No comments from Humza Yousaf yet, calling the Palestinians out.

 

Leaders of other countries all quick to condemn the atrocities the Palestinians are committing.

 

Seemingly going from house to house murdering everyone they find.

 

 

[Homme]

Hamas are going to be obliterated this time around.

[JudyJudyJudy]

17 minutes ago, superjack said:

I seen that all political leaders saying that Israel has the right to defend itself. Surely this is Palestine in the process of defending itself against Israel. Why don't they come out with statements about Palestine having the right to defend itself after more attacks from Israel.

It’s not that complex .  Israel has very powerful supporters in every country and not just in politics . 

[Cruyff]

Hamas is just bringing pain and suffering to their own people. Surely they know the script by now. The Israeli Government will send a message because of this. 

[Tazio]

2 hours ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Israel stole their land . The “ “ Balfour declaration “ is one of the great tragedies of modern day history . Shameful . 

It goes further back than that, the Sykes-Picot Agreement being a big part of it. When you chop up area of land and create artificial borders it never ends well.

[Mikey1874]

War tends to bring other nations in and a review of the whole situation.

 

It is true Israel could just smash Hamas and put even more restrictions on everyone. But equally there can be positive changes for the general population. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

Imagine a country is given to. People because it was “ promised “ in a fairy tale book . That’s basically it . 

[Spellczech]

I find it bizarre that Israel cannot see the hypocrisy in herding the Palestinians into squalid ghettos behind huge fences.

 

Sad thing for the Palestinians is that none of their Arab "brothers" want them either but will happily provide them with bomb ingredients and weapons... 

 

Only way to end this is if Israel builds decent accomodation in there for Palestinians rather than trying to shrink the ghetto via settlers as they are did in the West Bank. Even the Americans understand  that hearts and minds is the only way to end a vendetta...however, there is seldom the budget for that, and there always is for weapons...

[Spellczech]

9 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Imagine a country is given to. People because it was “ promised “ in a fairy tale book . That’s basically it . 

 

Don't agree. It was basically a collective adopted guilt thing over what the Nazis did as a culmination of 2000 years of anti-semitism. But the Nazis didn't invent anti-Semitism. The Romans found the Jews in Judea to be difficult to manage as they refused to bow under the yolk of their empirical rules ( and acceptances). The Catholic Church then had about 1500 years at least of blaming Jews for the death of Christ...Plus the wandering Jews were a bit too good at business and close-knit in their communities resulting in pogroms by various kings who were short of money - Charles (V? IIRC) in France and Henry XIII in England to name but two...even by 1930s anti-Semitism was rife in Europe, and even the horrors of the Holocaust wouldn't have reversed it.

 

There is a reason that Western Govts are quite happy to see Arab Sheiks spending their money building islands in the seas, tall buildings and buying expensive cars. If they ever get bored of their toys and spent it all on guns then WW3 would start in the Middle East...

[Cade]

Most people don't quite fully grasp the sheer scale of the illegal  Israeli settlements.

The darker areas of this map are under full Palestinian control.

The lighter bits are under shared control.

The lightest bits (i.e. most of the map) is under full Israeli control.

 

And I'd remind you that this map is of what's left of Palestine; it's not even Israel.

 

This is not just one or two heidbangers setting up a wee camp here and there.

It's a systematic assimilation and hostile takeover.

The Palestinians are living on reservations in their own country FFS.

 

Israel says it does not condone illegal settlements but at the same time sends its soldiers to take part under the guise of "protecting Israeli citizens" then builds roads connecting the settlements under the same shitey excuse.

Whenever Israel talks of "peace" what they really mean is "victory".

 

It should be obvious to anyone that the two-state solution is dead and has been for about thirty years.
The UN and the rest of the world has simply sat back and let it happen.

I'm sure that Israel will eventually take over all of the West Bank and the remaining Palestinians will be forced off the land.

Israel is a dangerous military theocracy run by racist fundamentalists.

Any Palestinian remaining will be living in a horrible apartheid state.

 

They pretty much do anyhow, since Israel controls the electricity, government coffers, telephone exchange and postal service of the Palestinian authority already.

 

Israel was supposed to be "the only safe haven for Jews"

And somewhere along the line it turned into "a safe haven ONLY for Jews" 

 

But as I said, Hamas and the other militant organisations only make things worse; they wreck the international goodwill and sympathy which the Palestinian cause deserves and give the Israelis an excuse for excessive reprisals and accelerations of settlement building. 

 

 

[Gundermann]

2 hours ago, Cade said:

See when Israel has the most far-right, regilious fundamentalist government in its entire history?

Maybe giving them an excuse to launch a full scale genocidal war of extermination is a bad move.

Hamas are thick as feck.

I'm 100% on the side of the persecuted Palestinian people but for feck sake their militants always make the wrong moves.

Israel will use this moronic attack as an excuse to push for a final victory and occupation of all of the West Bank, and they may totally destroy Gaza this time.

 

I know. Israel is clearly a rogue state but anyone taking up arms anywhere is not going to achieve much except bloodshed. Especially doing it against Israel.

 

Hundreds of Palestinians killed already apparently. More to come given Israel's recond in past decades.

[Tazio]

35 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

I find it bizarre that Israel cannot see the hypocrisy in herding the Palestinians into squalid ghettos behind huge fences.

 

Sad thing for the Palestinians is that none of their Arab "brothers" want them either but will happily provide them with bomb ingredients and weapons... 

 

Only way to end this is if Israel builds decent accomodation in there for Palestinians rather than trying to shrink the ghetto via settlers as they are did in the West Bank. Even the Americans understand  that hearts and minds is the only way to end a vendetta...however, there is seldom the budget for that, and there always is for weapons...

The Nakba after the foundation of Israel destabilised so many things in that region. Not least of all in Lebanon where most of the Palestinians ended up. This losing the fairly even split between Christian and Muslim for the first time making the Christians the minority. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 hour ago, Spellczech said:

 

Don't agree. It was basically a collective adopted guilt thing over what the Nazis did as a culmination of 2000 years of anti-semitism. But the Nazis didn't invent anti-Semitism. The Romans found the Jews in Judea to be difficult to manage as they refused to bow under the yolk of their empirical rules ( and acceptances). The Catholic Church then had about 1500 years at least of blaming Jews for the death of Christ...Plus the wandering Jews were a bit too good at business and close-knit in their communities resulting in pogroms by various kings who were short of money - Charles (V? IIRC) in France and Henry XIII in England to name but two...even by 1930s anti-Semitism was rife in Europe, and even the horrors of the Holocaust wouldn't have reversed it.

 

There is a reason that Western Govts are quite happy to see Arab Sheiks spending their money building islands in the seas, tall buildings and buying expensive cars. If they ever get bored of their toys and spent it all on guns then WW3 would start in the Middle East...

Yes I’ve said much if the above before “ the collective guilt “ my god some poor people paying for it now . 

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 hour ago, Gundermann said:

rogue state but any

I prefer to call it a “ terrorist “ state . 

[biglaff]

There are loads of people in Palestine who just want to live in peace with Israel but Hamas don't want this, and they will happily"martyr" their own people for their cause.

[henrysmithsgloves]

Nuke the lot of them, problem solved😳

[Tazio]

26 minutes ago, biglaff said:

There are loads of people in Palestine who just want to live in peace with Israel but Hamas don't want this, and they will happily"martyr" their own people for their cause.

There are people who don't approve of violent means but I'm pretty sure no Palestinian is happy to live with Israel in the current set up. The Israeli behaviour in the West Bank is appalling in terms of settlers, abuse of the local population, freedom of movement, and many more. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

3 hours ago, Cade said:

Most people don't quite fully grasp the sheer scale of the illegal  Israeli settlements.

The darker areas of this map are under full Palestinian control.

The lighter bits are under shared control.

The lightest bits (i.e. most of the map) is under full Israeli control.

 

And I'd remind you that this map is of what's left of Palestine; it's not even Israel.

 

This is not just one or two heidbangers setting up a wee camp here and there.

It's a systematic assimilation and hostile takeover.

The Palestinians are living on reservations in their own country FFS.

 

Israel says it does not condone illegal settlements but at the same time sends its soldiers to take part under the guise of "protecting Israeli citizens" then builds roads connecting the settlements under the same shitey excuse.

Whenever Israel talks of "peace" what they really mean is "victory".

 

It should be obvious to anyone that the two-state solution is dead and has been for about thirty years.
The UN and the rest of the world has simply sat back and let it happen.

I'm sure that Israel will eventually take over all of the West Bank and the remaining Palestinians will be forced off the land.

Israel is a dangerous military theocracy run by racist fundamentalists.

Any Palestinian remaining will be living in a horrible apartheid state.

 

They pretty much do anyhow, since Israel controls the electricity, government coffers, telephone exchange and postal service of the Palestinian authority already.

 

Israel was supposed to be "the only safe haven for Jews"

And somewhere along the line it turned into "a safe haven ONLY for Jews" 

 

But as I said, Hamas and the other militant organisations only make things worse; they wreck the international goodwill and sympathy which the Palestinian cause deserves and give the Israelis an excuse for excessive reprisals and accelerations of settlement building. 

 

 

Excellent informative posting. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

Its a systematic genocide of a people and no other nations are willing to give a f l

[Australis]

Hamas, really caught out Israel with this attack.

Seems Israel had no intelligence at all that it was going to happen.

 

[Seaside Dave]

Expect Israel to retaliate 10 times stronger. Good luck to them 

[Jim_Duncan]

Hopefully we start seeing Stars of David alongside the ubiquitous blue and yellow flags all over the country as the Israelis sort things out. 

[moogsy]

Seeing some absolutely horrific things coming out. Young girls, women and pensioners kidnapped and horrifically beaten. Hamas soldiers celebrating sitting on the half naked body of a dead Israeli woman and desecrating it. 
 

Hard to have much sympathy for people behaving like this if I’m honest. They’ve gone full ISIS.

[JFK-1]

8 hours ago, XB52 said:

Israel herds millions into camps and then is surprised when they fight back? Of course the Palestinians will suffer a hundred times more but they have to do something 

 

What camps? 

[JFK-1]

I don't think people grasp how tiny Israel is. You're talking little more than around 8,000 square miles, probably around the size of the central belt in Scotland.

 

[Diadora Van Basten]

45 minutes ago, moogsy said:

Seeing some absolutely horrific things coming out. Young girls, women and pensioners kidnapped and horrifically beaten. Hamas soldiers celebrating sitting on the half naked body of a dead Israeli woman and desecrating it. 
 

Hard to have much sympathy for people behaving like this if I’m honest. They’ve gone full ISIS.

I don’t believe Hamas are the aggressors I think Israel and the news agency would have you believe it’s a fair fight but it’s more like any excuse to use modern technological weapons against ordinary people defending themselves by throwing stones.

[Spellczech]

36 minutes ago, JFK-1 said:

I don't think people grasp how tiny Israel is. You're talking little more than around 8,000 square miles, probably around the size of the central belt in Scotland.

 

Israel 9m people in 22k sq km; Palestine 5m in 10k sq km.

 

They are not settling Palestine because there is a lot of spare space there...

Edited October 7, 2023 by Spellczech

[XB52]

36 minutes ago, JFK-1 said:

 

What camps? 

Apart from the millions existing in refugee camps in surrounding countries, Gaza is just one big camp. 

 

[moogsy]

1 minute ago, Diadora Van Basten said:

I don’t believe Hamas are the aggressors I think Israel and the news agency would have you believe it’s a fair fight but it’s more like any excuse to use modern technological weapons against ordinary people defending themselves by throwing stones.

That’s not what I’ve seen in the videos and images coming out. Heavily armed fighters kidnapping, abusing and murdering women and children, and rejoicing in it.

 

I’m not talking about the historic conflict, specifically this offensive by Hamas, which seems to be complete madness and almost solely targeted at Israeli civilians. 

 

 

[JFK-1]

3 minutes ago, Diadora Van Basten said:

I don’t believe Hamas are the aggressors I think Israel and the news agency would have you believe it’s a fair fight but it’s more like any excuse to use modern technological weapons against ordinary people defending themselves by throwing stones.

 

It's all fake news? Hamas didn't go anywhere, they threw stones and somebody else murdered these people?

 

Now they get the blame?

[XB52]

6 hours ago, Cade said:

Most people don't quite fully grasp the sheer scale of the illegal  Israeli settlements.

The darker areas of this map are under full Palestinian control.

The lighter bits are under shared control.

The lightest bits (i.e. most of the map) is under full Israeli control.

 

And I'd remind you that this map is of what's left of Palestine; it's not even Israel.

 

This is not just one or two heidbangers setting up a wee camp here and there.

It's a systematic assimilation and hostile takeover.

The Palestinians are living on reservations in their own country FFS.

 

Israel says it does not condone illegal settlements but at the same time sends its soldiers to take part under the guise of "protecting Israeli citizens" then builds roads connecting the settlements under the same shitey excuse.

Whenever Israel talks of "peace" what they really mean is "victory".

 

It should be obvious to anyone that the two-state solution is dead and has been for about thirty years.
The UN and the rest of the world has simply sat back and let it happen.

I'm sure that Israel will eventually take over all of the West Bank and the remaining Palestinians will be forced off the land.

Israel is a dangerous military theocracy run by racist fundamentalists.

Any Palestinian remaining will be living in a horrible apartheid state.

 

They pretty much do anyhow, since Israel controls the electricity, government coffers, telephone exchange and postal service of the Palestinian authority already.

 

Israel was supposed to be "the only safe haven for Jews"

And somewhere along the line it turned into "a safe haven ONLY for Jews" 

 

But as I said, Hamas and the other militant organisations only make things worse; they wreck the international goodwill and sympathy which the Palestinian cause deserves and give the Israelis an excuse for excessive reprisals and accelerations of settlement building. 

 

 

Very good post and, sadly, the last part is so true. The Palestinians will pay a heavy price as Israel is allowed to do what it wants, supported fully by the US

[JFK-1]

1 minute ago, XB52 said:

Apart from the millions existing in refugee camps in surrounding countries, Gaza is just one big camp. 

 

 

I seriously don't know what you're talking about, and suspect you're just making this up. Give me an example of ANY camp with a million people in it. Anywhere.

 

You know how many were called Palestinian refugees there in 1948? I do, I'm betting you don't.

[Jeffros Furios]

Hamas are murdering scum and I'm sure thier Iranian backers are happy .

The Isrealies really need to stop building new settlements but they don't give  a **** and unfortunately today's disaster is the consequences. 

[Jeffros Furios]

5 minutes ago, JFK-1 said:

 

I seriously don't know what you're talking about, and suspect you're just making this up. Give me an example of ANY camp with a million people in it. Anywhere.

 

You know how many were called Palestinian refugees there in 1948? I do, I'm betting you don't.

[redjambo]

8 minutes ago, JFK-1 said:

 

I seriously don't know what you're talking about, and suspect you're just making this up. Give me an example of ANY camp with a million people in it. Anywhere.

 

You know how many were called Palestinian refugees there in 1948? I do, I'm betting you don't.

 

From the UNRWA website: https://www.unrwa.org/palestine-refugees

 

Today, some 5.9 million Palestine refugees are eligible for UNRWA services.

[HeartsandonlyHearts]

12 minutes ago, XB52 said:

Very good post and, sadly, the last part is so true. The Palestinians will pay a heavy price as Israel is allowed to do what it wants, supported fully by the US

The Palestinians will pay a heavy price because of Hamas and Hezbolla (sp) 

Israel do not attack Palestinians on a daily basis unless provoked. Yes it’s a shitty set up for the Palestinians but the Palestinians are nothing but pawns for Iran who honestly don’t give a **** about them.

 

[XB52]

30 minutes ago, JFK-1 said:

 

I seriously don't know what you're talking about, and suspect you're just making this up. Give me an example of ANY camp with a million people in it. Anywhere.

 

You know how many were called Palestinian refugees there in 1948? I do, I'm betting you don't.

Nearly one-third of the registered Palestine refugees, more than 1.5 million individuals, live in 58 recognized Palestine refugee camps in Jordan, Lebanon, the Syrian Arab Republic, the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, including East Jerusalem

[XB52]

32 minutes ago, JFK-1 said:

 

I seriously don't know what you're talking about, and suspect you're just making this up. Give me an example of ANY camp with a million people in it. Anywhere.

 

You know how many were called Palestinian refugees there in 1948? I do, I'm betting you don't.

Oh, and there are 2 million in the Gaza camp

[XB52]

16 minutes ago, HeartsandonlyHearts said:

The Palestinians will pay a heavy price because of Hamas and Hezbolla (sp) 

Israel do not attack Palestinians on a daily basis unless provoked. Yes it’s a shitty set up for the Palestinians but the Palestinians are nothing but pawns for Iran who honestly don’t give a **** about them.

 

Israelis certainly do attack Palestinians on a daily basis, backed by the racist government