Israel and Palestine

[Spellczech]

26 minutes ago, Gundermann said:

 

 

Because they're basically the same people.

Try telling them that...

 

All religions like to believe that they are the best, the true religion. The slight difference with Judaism is that whilst for all other religions this is an interpretative statement, it is a fundemental of Judaism that they are "God's Chosen People". In the world of zealotry  this doesn't sit well with the pushers of competing mythologies...

 

At one point they may have been the same group but that divergence happened millenia ago, and is now utterly irrelevant. Now it is about religion and land - Tribalism

[That thing you do]

Former Israeli soldier saying Israel will have to invade Gaza.

 

Going to be a bloody process trying to take control of Gaza

 

Mail saying the same

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12609189/Israel-wants-REMOVE-Hamas-power-death-toll-700-likely-rise-says-military-spokesperson-Iron-Dome-shield-intercepts-wave-wave-rockets-Gaza-Battles-continue-inside-Israel-worst-day-history-Jewish-state.html

Edited October 9, 2023 by That thing you do

[doctor jambo]

58 minutes ago, Gundermann said:

 

 

Because they're basically the same people.

The whole globe is basically the same people .

I oppose all separatist movements.

Including the Scottish one as you know.

Dividing people based on wiggly lines/ colour/ religion has never worked for people .

Apart from the rulers.

The fewer borders the fewer people in power.

Stands to reason that nobody with a sniff at a throne would want to disturb that

[Spellczech]

7 minutes ago, That thing you do said:

Former Israeli soldier saying Israel will have to invade Gaza.

 

Going to be a bloody process trying to take control of Gaza

 

Mail saying the same

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12609189/Israel-wants-REMOVE-Hamas-power-death-toll-700-likely-rise-says-military-spokesperson-Iron-Dome-shield-intercepts-wave-wave-rockets-Gaza-Battles-continue-inside-Israel-worst-day-history-Jewish-state.html

That will pull Hezbollah into the mix as there is no chance they can sit by and watch that.. I cannot help having the feeling that Hamas' reminder to the World of their situation/plight has played right into the hands of the right-wing Israeli Govt...

[Ministryofdad]

1 hour ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

You are out of touch with the views in Israel 

 

 

Could it be because the uk created Israel like with Belgium. 

Stolen land from Jordan and Egypt after claiming it from the otterman empire. 

Then creating lines. 

[Mikey1874]

Some leeway given to residents 

 

 

[hughesie27]

1 minute ago, Mikey1874 said:

Some leeway given to residents 

 

 

This was yesterday. Aplenty they have informed the Sky News building in Gaza that they should evacuate today. 

[Spellczech]

25 minutes ago, Ministryofdad said:

Could it be because the uk created Israel like with Belgium. 

Stolen land from Jordan and Egypt after claiming it from the otterman empire. 

Then creating lines. 

The UN created Israel - We were involved though...

[HeartsandonlyHearts]

1 hour ago, hughesie27 said:

Israel controlling fuel, electricity and water supplies. Putting Gaza under siege.

 

So no change from the last 15 years.

What did u think would happen? Hamas knew this would be the first move by Israel. They don’t care. Like most Muslims they don’t give a $#!t about the Palestinians. They don’t care about the second or third move either. It doesn’t effect them personally. They stir the hornet nest then leave the consequences to the weak. I hope Israel wipes the floor with the animals that did this. Most will be puppets but hopefully some higher up types are on the kill list. 

[hughesie27]

3 minutes ago, HeartsandonlyHearts said:

What did u think would happen? Hamas knew this would be the first move by Israel. They don’t care. Like most Muslims they don’t give a $#!t about the Palestinians. They don’t care about the second or third move either. It doesn’t effect them personally. They stir the hornet nest then leave the consequences to the weak. I hope Israel wipes the floor with the animals that did this. Most will be puppets but hopefully some higher up types are on the kill list. 

Why would this be Israel's first move if Hamas are so disconnected and unaffected by it? Doesn't seem like a good move from the would be good guys. 

[Jeffros Furios]

The Egyptians need to open thier end of the Gaza strip as some of the the civilian population have nowhere to go . The actions of Hamas has only brought a lot more bloodshed to thier own people 

but when did Jihadis give a **** about anyone . 

1000s will die  .

 

[Mikey1874]

Unfortunate effect of appeasing the settlers.

 

 

[Gundermann]

1 hour ago, doctor jambo said:

The whole globe is basically the same people .

I oppose all separatist movements.

Including the Scottish one as you know.

Dividing people based on wiggly lines/ colour/ religion has never worked for people .

Apart from the rulers.

The fewer borders the fewer people in power.

Stands to reason that nobody with a sniff at a throne would want to disturb that

 

Can't disagree but put it this way, the Palestinians and Jews are a lot closer culturally and linguistically than they are to us.

[Gundermann]

1 hour ago, Spellczech said:

Try telling them that...

 

All religions like to believe that they are the best, the true religion. The slight difference with Judaism is that whilst for all other religions this is an interpretative statement, it is a fundemental of Judaism that they are "God's Chosen People". In the world of zealotry  this doesn't sit well with the pushers of competing mythologies...

 

At one point they may have been the same group but that divergence happened millenia ago, and is now utterly irrelevant. Now it is about religion and land - Tribalism

 

True. Yet some are saying 'but the Jews were there before Islam was even a thing...'.

 

I'd also argue that Jews and Arabs - and the native Christians there - in Palestine co-existed fairly well until WWII.

[Spellczech]

3 minutes ago, Gundermann said:

 

Can't disagree but put it this way, the Palestinians and Jews are a lot closer culturally and linguistically than they are to us.

They'd say the same about the English, French and Germans but what is the significance of it?

[Gundermann]

27 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

Unfortunate effect of appeasing the settlers.

 

 

 

Saw that.

 

Many in Israel will be livid at their hardline govt. It's just the same cycle of violence all over again. Israel are the major power here - even accounting for Iran supplying Hamas - and the ball is in their court to take a different road.

 

So far, we just have created more martyrs on both sides with more traumatised family members seeking revenge in the future. Israel bascially can't win with confidence and security without wiping out the Palestinian people. Surely  not?

 

Quote

 

An Israeli lawmaker has told Al Jazeera that his party warned about events like Saturday’s Hamas attack on Israel if the country’s government continued its illegal occupation of Palestinian lands.

Hamas launched a multipronged assault at dawn on Saturday with thousands of rockets fired at Israel, and the Gaza-based group’s fighters infiltrating Israeli towns and illegal settlements.

 

 

[Spellczech]

12 minutes ago, Gundermann said:

 

True. Yet some are saying 'but the Jews were there before Islam was even a thing...'.

 

I'd also argue that Jews and Arabs - and the native Christians there - in Palestine co-existed fairly well until WWII.

Well that is indeed a fact, but it is not the only fact that is pertinent...The Israelites had lots of battles with other Canaanite tribes who all spoke an archaic version of Hebrew. As I said, it is tribal not just religious.

 

The Romans came and went; Islam came, then Christianity in the Crusades, then Muslims again, then Mameluks then Ottomans then British... I think even the Mongols conquered the area at one time?

Edited October 9, 2023 by Spellczech

[AlphonseCapone]

Qatar acting as a mediator between Hamas and Israel in an attempt to negotiate swap of children and women hostages/prisoners on both sides.

[HeartsandonlyHearts]

48 minutes ago, hughesie27 said:

Why would this be Israel's first move if Hamas are so disconnected and unaffected by it? Doesn't seem like a good move from the would be good guys. 

First move to show them that they (Israel) control more than Hamas will ever dream of controlling in Gaza and will never be able to really help the Palestinians. Put them on edge on not knowing when it’s coming. They know it will. 99.9% of Palestinians in Gaza are not backers of terror. Yes, they’d like to be somewhere else in the world but right now they’re trapped in Gaza. Unfortunately they’re puppets stuck in the middle of something they’d rather not be part of. 
“Would be good guys”

Are you saying someone else in that area are the good guys?

[hughesie27]

12 minutes ago, HeartsandonlyHearts said:

First move to show them that they (Israel) control more than Hamas will ever dream of controlling in Gaza and will never be able to really help the Palestinians. Put them on edge on not knowing when it’s coming. They know it will. 99.9% of Palestinians in Gaza are not backers of terror. Yes, they’d like to be somewhere else in the world but right now they’re trapped in Gaza. Unfortunately they’re puppets stuck in the middle of something they’d rather not be part of. 
“Would be good guys”

Are you saying someone else in that area are the good guys?

Yes, those 99.9% of Palestinians.

[Diadora Van Basten]

1 hour ago, Mikey1874 said:

Some leeway given to residents 

 

 

Why not just not attack Gaza. it’s not an anti terrorist operation. It’s a punishment similar to the War Crimes Israel has already committed by turning off the electricity and causing a humanitarian crisis.

Edited October 9, 2023 by Diadora Van Basten

[highlandjambo3]

did you see the Russian foreign minister on Sky tv talking about cessation of hostilities as innocent people were being killed 🤬🤬🤬🤷‍♂️the neck of the man.

[John Findlay]

12 minutes ago, Diadora Van Basten said:

Why not just not attack Gaza. it’s not an anti terrorist operation. It’s a punishment similar to the War Crimes Israel has already committed by turning off the electricity and causing a humanitarian crisis.

So are you going to join Hamas or Hezbollah and join them in their struggle?

Or are you just going to continue gobbling off on a messageboard?

[Diadora Van Basten]

16 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

So are you going to join Hamas or Hezbollah and join them in their struggle?

Or are you just going to continue gobbling off on a messageboard?

Continue posting my opinion on a message board it’s kind of what they are there for.

[BlueRiver]

1 hour ago, Spellczech said:

They'd say the same about the English, French and Germans but what is the significance of it?

 

I'm struggling to work out how European Jews moving to Israel in the 50s are culturally closer to Palestinians to be fair...

[John Findlay]

7 minutes ago, Diadora Van Basten said:

Continue posting my opinion on a message board it’s kind of what they are there for.

So no courage of your convictions.

Ach well Palestinians loss I guess.

[Mikey1874]

39 minutes ago, Diadora Van Basten said:

Why not just not attack Gaza. it’s not an anti terrorist operation. It’s a punishment similar to the War Crimes Israel has already committed by turning off the electricity and causing a humanitarian crisis.

 

Humza Yousef has explained how his relatives told to leave basically can't leave Gaza. 

[AlphonseCapone]

40 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

So are you going to join Hamas or Hezbollah and join them in their struggle?

Or are you just going to continue gobbling off on a messageboard?

 

14 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

So no courage of your convictions.

Ach well Palestinians loss I guess.

 

I don't know what point you think you're making, John?

[John Findlay]

9 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

 

I don't know what point you think you're making, John?

I don't expect you would.

[AlphonseCapone]

7 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

I don't expect you would.

 

Ah how very clever. Just continue talking shite like you're making some point.

[Jamstomorrow]

Hamas has sown the wind.  They shall reap the whirlwind.

[Shanks]

The reporting from the BBC on all this is so biased.  Horrible what is happening. 

[Diadora Van Basten]

7 minutes ago, Shanks said:

The reporting from the BBC on all this is so biased.  Horrible what is happening. 

Agreed.

[Tazio]

18 minutes ago, Jamstomorrow said:

Hamas has sown the wind.  They shall reap the whirlwind.

And the innocent people in Gaza get the crossfire. 
 

[indianajones]

What a ****ing mess. 

[SectionDJambo]

I  don't know enough about the history of the origins of the formation of the state of Israel after the war. This seems to be a situation which has no solution due to the hatred of the Arab representatives towards Israel and the contempt for fairness from the Israeli government towards the Arabs.

My generation didn't expect the Ulster violence to ever end due to the hatred and suspicions both sides had for each other, but it eventually happened because the representatives of both sides had the courage to realise compromises had to be made and trust built and maintained. There can still be disagreements but still no real resumption of violence.

Maybe there are too many agitators in the Middle East on both sides being encouraged by outside influences. It's a tragic situation for the Arab community, who usually take the full brunt of Israeli retaliation, and now innocent Israelis, and others who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, are suffering as a result of the intransigence and bloody mindedness of both leaderships.

Can there be anyone brave enough to make a serious attempt at stopping this madness?

[Pans Jambo]

1 hour ago, Shanks said:

The reporting from the BBC on all this is so biased.  Horrible what is happening. 

Yip. One sided as fek but then its the BBC isnt it?

[Gundermann]

3 hours ago, Spellczech said:

Well that is indeed a fact, but it is not the only fact that is pertinent...The Israelites had lots of battles with other Canaanite tribes who all spoke an archaic version of Hebrew. As I said, it is tribal not just religious.

 

The Romans came and went; Islam came, then Christianity in the Crusades, then Muslims again, then Mameluks then Ottomans then British... I think even the Mongols conquered the area at one time?

 

A very pertinent fact is that Jews, Muslims and Christians - all native to the area - co-existed until fairly recently The current 'troubles' started when Zionists started 'reclaiming their land' through their own acts of terrorism, including against the British state.

 

👍

[Gundermann]

 

[Cruyff]

Revenge isn't the answer for Israel, why can't they see it? 

You kill us, we kill you lot, rinse and repeat..... 

 

Hamas attack Israel because Israel treats the Palestinians like shit. That doesn't excuse what Hamas has done but they know that an attack on Israel leads to great suffering for their own people. The very thing they are apparently standing up for. 

 

It's absolutely nuts and can only be solved by the drawing of physical borders and recognition of a Palestinian Country. Why this hasn't happened or been forced upon both sides is just bizarre. The international community has had decades to sort this mess. 

Edited October 9, 2023 by Cruyff

[Gundermann]

1 hour ago, Jamstomorrow said:

Hamas has sown the wind.  They shall reap the whirlwind.

 

A lot of Israelis say the same of their own government. And so it goes on...

[Mikey1874]

30 minutes ago, SectionDJambo said:

I  don't know enough about the history of the origins of the formation of the state of Israel after the war. This seems to be a situation which has no solution due to the hatred of the Arab representatives towards Israel and the contempt for fairness from the Israeli government towards the Arabs.

My generation didn't expect the Ulster violence to ever end due to the hatred and suspicions both sides had for each other, but it eventually happened because the representatives of both sides had the courage to realise compromises had to be made and trust built and maintained. There can still be disagreements but still no real resumption of violence.

Maybe there are too many agitators in the Middle East on both sides being encouraged by outside influences. It's a tragic situation for the Arab community, who usually take the full brunt of Israeli retaliation, and now innocent Israelis, and others who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, are suffering as a result of the intransigence and bloody mindedness of both leaderships.

Can there be anyone brave enough to make a serious attempt at stopping this madness?

 

The main difference I'd say with N.Ireland in terms of achieving peace was the USA. While the British had degraded the IRA, it was the US who ultimately pressurised the Republicans towards peace especially after 9/11 removed mainstream support. While the US absolutely and totally backs Israel allowing them total freedom and impunity. 

[Spellczech]

5 minutes ago, Gundermann said:

 

A very pertinent fact is that Jews, Muslims and Christians - all native to the area - co-existed until fairly recently The current 'troubles' started when Zionists started 'reclaiming their land' through their own acts of terrorism, including against the British state.

 

👍

Until recently? You are talking 75 years ie 3 generations... vendetta is ingrained now. 

[Nucky Thompson]

I can't get the thought of those youngsters at a music festival getting massacred out of my head 

Having kids that age who are into their concerts and festivals hits home

[heartgarfunkel]

I'm a massive Channel 4 News fan and a bit of a bleeding heart liberal/lefty but I'm struggling to get the subjective use of 'captive' instead of 'kidnapped hostage', 'militant' instead of 'terrorist', and Israeli military 'offensive' instead of 'response'.  I'm a historian and if this was a documentary I could get the subjective use of language, but this is the news. WTF? Objectivity please.

Edited October 9, 2023 by heartgarfunkel

[Victorian]

12 minutes ago, Nucky Thompson said:

I can't get the thought of those youngsters at a music festival getting massacred out of my head 

Having kids that age who are into their concerts and festivals hits home

 

Pure evil,  including the kidnappings as well.  But surely the last time that people will be left virtually unprotected and prone to attack so close to the Gazan boundary.  That boundary is no better than a chain link fence.  That'll change.  

[ArcticJambo]

1 minute ago, heartgarfunkel said:

I'm a massive Channel 4 News fan and a bit of a bleeding heart liberal/lefty but I'm struggling to get the objective use of 'captive' instead of 'kidnapped hostage', 'militant' instead of 'terrorist', and Israeli military 'offensive' instead of 'response'.  I'm a historian and if this was a documentary I could get the subjective use of language, but this is the news. WTF?

Good post. It's everywhere in media right across all subjects, the use of language that was never used in our day. Whether to dampen or heighten the effect, to which ever leaning the oganisation sways. The use of routine neutral news reporting language/terminology seems dead now!

[heartgarfunkel]

3 minutes ago, ArcticJambo said:

Good post. It's everywhere in media right across all subjects, the use of language that was never used in our day. Whether to dampen or heighten the effect, to which ever leaning the oganisation sways. The use of routine neutral news reporting language/terminology seems dead now!

It does seem like a bygone age and it's so dangerous when it comes from the mainstream media when all the bampots are 'influencing' via the social media channels.

[JFK-1]

8 hours ago, redjambo said:

 

Not wanting to get involved, but doing it anyway, can I add my name to the folk advising @JFK-1 to calm down a bit. Usually a decent poster, he's been over-the-top with the virulence of his attacks on this thread, imo.

 

No disrespect to you, but don't advise me and don't talk about me attacking anyone when what I do is respond to people quoting me, like I just did to you.

 

Show me what you're talking about, because I don't think you know. What you need to do there is you provide what I say you think is OTT and what i'm responding to. Can you do that?

 

If you can't please don't bother quoting me again.

[JFK-1]

4 hours ago, HeartsandonlyHearts said:

They know it will. 99.9% of Palestinians in Gaza are not backers of terror.

 

Where did you get this number? Do you know how Hamas took power in Gaza? Well they took power after an election in which they gathered the most votes. You think that was 00.01% of Palestinians who elected them?