****The All In One LGBTQ+ & Related Issues Mega Thread****

[Dick Dastardly]

Just now, Dawnrazor said:

That to me is daft, but different from a woman or girl not wanting to go to the toilet if they know a man is in there.

It's not exactly the same scenario, but there are definitely similarities in the attitudes. Just because a man identifies as a woman does not mean they are trying to sexually assault women in toilets, just as a man who is gay isn't using toilets to try and sexually assault men. There will have been cases of both happening but i don't think they will happen as often as is made out. 

[Dick Dastardly]

Just now, jonesy said:

TBF, if James/Judy were in the toilets, I'd hesitate to go in. 

 

He might end up gifing me to death in there. 😜 

 

[BlueRiver]

24 minutes ago, Dick Dastardly said:

I don't pay much attention to it either but I've noticed it seems to be very similar to the whole attitude towards homosexuality from the past. I still know people that wont go into the toilets if they know there are gay folk in the pub ffs! 

 

Clearly they're concerned that those gays will use their secret magic to turn and seduce them 🤣 

 

Seriously eh? How insecure do you need to be to act like that. 

 

 

[Dawnrazor]

18 minutes ago, Dick Dastardly said:

It's not exactly the same scenario, but there are definitely similarities in the attitudes. Just because a man identifies as a woman does not mean they are trying to sexually assault women in toilets, just as a man who is gay isn't using toilets to try and sexually assault men. There will have been cases of both happening but i don't think they will happen as often as is made out. 

I take your point but it's an issue that's been raised repeatedly by woman, I don't know the statistics but I'm pretty sure men have sexually assaulted women in a verity of situations, I don't know how many Gay men have assaulted men in comparison. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

20 minutes ago, jonesy said:

TBF, if James/Judy were in the toilets, I'd hesitate to go in. 

 

He might end up gifing me to death in there. 😜 

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

Some night last night

 

[Lord Montpelier]

2 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Some night last night

 

I mean seriously, wtf is going on there. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 minute ago, Lord Montpelier said:

I mean seriously, wtf is going on there. 

Looks like the end of some wild party . 

[Dawnrazor]

4 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Some night last night

 

Is that person lying face up or face down?

[JudyJudyJudy]

2 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

Is that person lying face up or face down?

Up 

[Dick Dastardly]

51 minutes ago, BlueRiver said:

 

Clearly they're concerned that those gays will use their secret magic to turn and seduce them 🤣 

 

Seriously eh? How insecure do you need to be to act like that. 

 

 

I know, its a pretty bizzare attitude 

[JudyJudyJudy]

Looks like Ri is Holding Judyshand . That’s sweet ! Knew he was really a big

4 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Looks like JKB Christmas night out.

 

From L-R: @ri Alban, @JudyJudyJudy, @the posh bit/@Weakened Offender/@Savage Vince

 

4 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Looks like JKB Christmas night out.

 

From L-R: @ri Alban, @JudyJudyJudy, @the posh bit/@Weakened Offender/@Savage Vince

cuddly bear 

[Dick Dastardly]

50 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

I take your point but it's an issue that's been raised repeatedly by woman, I don't know the statistics but I'm pretty sure men have sexually assaulted women in a verity of situations, I don't know how many Gay men have assaulted men in comparison. 

Fair point

[Lord Montpelier]

58 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Looks like the end of some wild party . 

I need to get out more

[the posh bit]

25 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Looks like JKB Christmas night out.

 

From L-R: @ri Alban, @JudyJudyJudy, @the posh bit/@Weakened Offender/@Savage Vince

 

😁😁😁

[JudyJudyJudy]

4 minutes ago, Lord Montpelier said:

I need to get out more

aye it was some night  

[Thunder and Lightning]

6 hours ago, jonesy said:

TBF, if James/Judy were in the toilets, I'd hesitate to go in. 

 

He might end up gifing me to death in there. 😜 

Is that what they call it nowadays?https://media.tenor.com/LYY_e4Ov6DQAAAAM/guilty-georgemichael.gif

Edited December 18, 2022 by Thunder and Lightning

[Thunder and Lightning]

Just now, Thunder and Lightning said:

Is that what they call it nowadays?https://media.tenor.com/LYY_e4Ov6DQAAAAM/guilty-georgemichael.gif

OK I guess I don't know how to do the gif thing then. 😂 

[JudyJudyJudy]

27 minutes ago, Thunder and Lightning said:

OK I guess I don't know how to do the gif thing then. 😂 

👍

[Ulysses]

On 16/12/2022 at 12:05, JudyJudyJudy said:

So its not so  rosey in dear old Ireland

 

 

How the trans activists fooled Ireland - UnHerd

 

Seven years, and not one of the "nightmare scenarios" raised by British activists has ever happened in Ireland.  That article doesn't contradict that, and is an opinion piece that supports other opinions.  People are entitled to their opinions, but until they can produce evidence that things have happened then their opinions don't align with the facts.

 

If you think Scottish people are somehow weaker or have lower moral and civil standards than the Irish that's your opinion, but it's something I'd find hard to believe.

 

 

[Notts1874]

8 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

Seven years, and not one of the "nightmare scenarios" raised by British activists has ever happened in Ireland.  That article doesn't contradict that, and is an opinion piece that supports other opinions.  People are entitled to their opinions, but until they can produce evidence that things have happened then their opinions don't align with the facts.

 

If you think Scottish people are somehow weaker or have lower moral and civil standards than the Irish that's your opinion, but it's something I'd find hard to believe.

 

 

Just to "fact check". The article was on a website founded by huge trans supporter Tim Montgomery 🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️*sarcasm*

[Ulysses]

On 15/12/2022 at 06:45, JimBett365 said:

Really interesting, factual evidence. I know it won’t impact you directly as you’re male but has the safe spaces impact been an issue for any of your female friends and relatives? I’m assuming from the theme of your post that there isn’t an issue in general?

 

In theory, the safe spaces issue might impact, but in practice it doesn't.  I'd guess that the possibility of meeting one of the less than 1,000 people who have availed of the legislation is quite small.  Also, although I don't know this for sure, it's plausible that a lot of men who applied for legal transition have also medically reassigned as well, and (because I can't think of a better way to say it) this might make them less of a threat.

 

By the way, I don't disagree for an instant with the idea that women's spaces should be safe.  I also recognise that generations of feminists have worked hard and sacrificed much to try to address the imbalance structural sexism in human society - and that this should not be swept away by some romantic notion that sex-based differences never existed and somehow don't matter.  The reason I've posted what I have is because someone asked a question, so I've answered it.  For seven years, Ireland has had the same legislation that Scotland is proposing.  Ireland has not become some kind of basket case for women in those seven years.  Ireland has not encountered the kind issues put forward as fears by opponents of the Scottish legislation.  In fact, in those years Ireland has improved as a place for women to live.  There are many things that Irish society could do to improve life for women and for people generally, but repealing gender recognition legislation is not going to make a positive difference to their lives.  Ireland's feminists do not buy the arguments put forward by Scottish activists, nor by their Irish counterparts.

 

There is an entirely different issue at play in Scotland, and unfortunately it gets conflated with the Gender Recognition Certificate issue.  That issue relates to people who take on the transgender issue when they themselves are not actually transgender.  They might well be entitled to attach other "queer sexuality" labels to themselves (or indeed other labels of divergence), but they aren't actually transgender and they behave like bams.  I said earlier that I thought that people who have legally transitioned gender have probably gone from living lives of quiet desperation to living lives that are desperately quiet.  I have no way of knowing, but I would imagine that those people wish that the bams would just shut up and **** off, because they're not helping anyone. 

[Ulysses]

On 15/12/2022 at 08:59, Taffin said:

 

I can't see why anyone would ever have an issue with gender self id. They don't even have defined characteristics. Sex though which seems to be the main discussion on this thread, is a totally different kettle of fish and I can see why it makes some very nervous.

 

I understand.  But the purpose of making the "sex not gender" argument is to oppose the passing of gender recognition legislation in Scotland, and to try to repeal it in Ireland.

[JudyJudyJudy]

Good article 

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/nov/27/nicola-sturgeon-will-endanger-women-if-she-opens-single-sex-spaces-almost-everone
 

 

 

[Ulysses]

On 15/12/2022 at 09:38, JudyJudyJudy said:

like most of my fellow activists we are Against the issue of “ self id “ Which allows biological men without any form of surgery simply to declare they are a woman and it gives them the legal entitlement to enter womens only places . Those men can join “ womens survivors of abuse “ groups , be in female only prisons , share same clothing changing room spaces as women , play in womens sports , the list is endless . It changes the legal concept of what a woman is . 

 

 

The actual provisions of the draft law are set out in the link below.  The second link is a briefing document which sets out all the debate, consultation and scrutiny that has taken place in the Scottish Parliament since the Bill was introduced

 

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill (parliament.scot)

 

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: consideration prior to Stage 3 | Scottish Parliament

 

What's the story with support or opposition in the Parliament?  Are the opposition parties against?  Are SNP or Green MSPs likely to break ranks and vote against?  There seem to have been 88 votes for and 33 votes against at the first stage. 

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

10 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

The actual provisions of the draft law are set out in the link below.  The second link is a briefing document which sets out all the debate, consultation and scrutiny that has taken place in the Scottish Parliament since the Bill was introduced

 

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill (parliament.scot)

 

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: consideration prior to Stage 3 | Scottish Parliament

 

What's the story with support or opposition in the Parliament?  Are the opposition parties against?  Are SNP or Green MSPs likely to break ranks and vote against?  There seem to have been 88 votes for and 33 votes against at the first stage. 

 

It seems to have cross party support which is no surprise as most politicians are shitting if with this issue ie. people like Keir Starner in the wider UK govt. Sturgeon had got herself in a mess with it and it reluctant now to untangle it imo 

[JudyJudyJudy]

14 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

The actual provisions of the draft law are set out in the link below.  The second link is a briefing document which sets out all the debate, consultation and scrutiny that has taken place in the Scottish Parliament since the Bill was introduced

 

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill (parliament.scot)

 

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: consideration prior to Stage 3 | Scottish Parliament

 

What's the story with support or opposition in the Parliament?  Are the opposition parties against?  Are SNP or Green MSPs likely to break ranks and vote against?  There seem to have been 88 votes for and 33 votes against at the first stage. 

 

How do you even prove you have lived in the other gender ? Gender is subjective . The whole thing falls apart at the first obstacle really . 
 

 

 

[Ulysses]

Just now, JudyJudyJudy said:

How do you even prove you have lived in the other gender ? Gender is subjective . The whole thing falls apart at the first obstacle really . 
 

 

 

 

Yeah, Ireland's legislation doesn't include that.  So you'd be happy if that was removed, yes?

[Notts1874]

3 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

How do you even prove you have lived in the other gender ? Gender is subjective . The whole thing falls apart at the first obstacle really . 
 

 

 

Not according to the courts it doesn't. Have a gingerbread biscuit. 

 

Look how I managed that without any pronouns. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

3 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

Yeah, Ireland's legislation doesn't include that.  So you'd be happy if that was removed, yes?

I’ll only happy if it’s completely binned .The conflating of sex and gender has been deliberate by the militants . Both are entirely different things . You should not be legally defined as a woman if you are a man. 

[Notts1874]

Militants 😂😂😂😂😂

[Notts1874]

You do you realise you are a militant don't you!!! 

[JudyJudyJudy]

Good article 

 

 

 

[Ulysses]

2 hours ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

I’ll only happy if it’s completely binned .The conflating of sex and gender has been deliberate by the militants . Both are entirely different things . You should not be legally defined as a woman if you are a man. 

 

I asked what your view of the legislation was.  Not your opinions about the issue, but your view of what is actually proposed in the law.  You pointed to one thing.  I noted that the thing you complained about isn't in the Irish legislation, so there's no reason it needs to be in the Scottish legislation.  I asked would it be OK if that was removed.  Then you moved the goalposts to start complaining about something else.

 

If you want to complain about the legislation, that is your prerogrative.  But when you make claims that you can't back up - and you can't - then people are going to call them out as unsupported opinions.

 

I've pointed out that Ireland has had the same legislation for seven years without the kind of problems that are claimed will result in Scotland.  That is relevant to the debate, interesting to anyone who wants to rationally analyse what will happen, and damaging to your argument.  The fact that this information is at odds with your opinions doesn't change the reality.  Posting an opinion without any supporting evidence by someone who agrees with you doesn't change the reality either.  All it means is that the facts don't support your view and theirs.

 

I haven't conflated sex and gender.  Red mist doesn't make for good analysis.

 

 

3 hours ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

It seems to have cross party support which is no surprise as most politicians are shitting if with this issue ie. people like Keir Starner in the wider UK govt. Sturgeon had got herself in a mess with it and it reluctant now to untangle it imo 

 

What mess?  When the Stage 1 scrutiny was in progress at the Scottish Parliament, the then Chairperson of the Irish Senate, Regina Doherty, was heard by the Parliament giving an account of the Irish experience and the consultation process for a review of the legislation.  On the basis of her account, I doubt the Scottish Government would see themselves as getting in a mess with it.  You can find it on the web at the link I posted earlier.

 

[JimBett365]

9 hours ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Good article 

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/nov/27/nicola-sturgeon-will-endanger-women-if-she-opens-single-sex-spaces-almost-everone
 

 

 

I assume when you say “good” you mean good because it echoes your own views? 
 

I normally class an article as good when it brings up evidence and examples and then either challenges them or develops them further. This article does neither. 
 

I’m sure similar articles were penned about Ireland’s pending legislation change  8/9/10 years ago. 

[JimBett365]

9 hours ago, Notts1874 said:

You do you realise you are a militant don't you!!! 

He’s self-identified as an ‘activist’.

[JimBett365]

6 hours ago, Ulysses said:

Posting an opinion without any supporting evidence by someone who agrees with you doesn't change the reality either.  All it means is that the facts don't support your view and theirs.

Exactly what I was saying. Lost count of the number of times I’ve seen JJJ do that. “I must be right because this other opinion piece in a newspaper/arsehole on Twitter thinks the same as me.”  It’s echo chamber validation, especially if you read sites like sites like Unherd which are completely biased and unbalanced. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

6 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

I asked what your view of the legislation was.  Not your opinions about the issue, but your view of what is actually proposed in the law.  You pointed to one thing.  I noted that the thing you complained about isn't in the Irish legislation, so there's no reason it needs to be in the Scottish legislation.  I asked would it be OK if that was removed.  Then you moved the goalposts to start complaining about something else.

 

If you want to complain about the legislation, that is your prerogrative.  But when you make claims that you can't back up - and you can't - then people are going to call them out as unsupported opinions.

 

I've pointed out that Ireland has had the same legislation for seven years without the kind of problems that are claimed will result in Scotland.  That is relevant to the debate, interesting to anyone who wants to rationally analyse what will happen, and damaging to your argument.  The fact that this information is at odds with your opinions doesn't change the reality.  Posting an opinion without any supporting evidence by someone who agrees with you doesn't change the reality either.  All it means is that the facts don't support your view and theirs.

 

I haven't conflated sex and gender.  Red mist doesn't make for good analysis.

 

 

 

What mess?  When the Stage 1 scrutiny was in progress at the Scottish Parliament, the then Chairperson of the Irish Senate, Regina Doherty, was heard by the Parliament giving an account of the Irish experience and the consultation process for a review of the legislation.  On the basis of her account, I doubt the Scottish Government would see themselves as getting in a mess with it.  You can find it on the web at the link I posted earlier.

 

Any legislation with the underpinning principle that people can change sex is wrong in my opinion. There you go . I have posted articles before with info regarding serious sexual assaults etc on women or girls in their own “ safe spaces “. Like I said . One is enough . But clearly not for the zealots who want to force ur through . I am others are on the right side of history with this issue and it will be proven in due course  . ‘ May the supporters of this legalisation hang their head in shame . 

 

Actually even if there were no sexual assaults it’s still womens feelings and perceptions of possible assaults which need to be taken into account . Their perception and feelings are not being listened to . In fact they are deliberately being ignored , right from the very top by Sturgeon et al . Other posters are going on “ facts “ etc whereas they are promoting the biggest lie ( not fact ) that people can change sex . 

 

 

 

Edited December 19, 2022 by JudyJudyJudy

[JudyJudyJudy]

 

Edited December 19, 2022 by JudyJudyJudy

[Lord Montpelier]

15 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Any legislation with the underpinning principle that people can change sex is wrong in my opinion. There you go . I have posted articles before with info regarding serious sexual assaults etc on women or girls in their own “ safe spaces “. Like I said . One is enough . But clearly not for the zealots who want to force ur through . I am others are on the right side of history with this issue and it will be proven in due course  . ‘ May the supporters of this legalisation hang their head in shame . 

 

Actually even if there were no sexual assaults it’s still womens feelings and perceptions of possible assaults which need to be taken into account . Their perception and feelings are not being listened to . In fact they are deliberately being ignored , right from the very top by Sturgeon et al . Other posters are going on “ facts “ etc whereas they are promoting the biggest lie ( not fact ) that people can change sex . 

 

 

 

I just take a simple view that I don't want any - any - bloke going into the same private space as my daughter. Anything that changes this won't get my support regardless of what 'evidence' is available. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

And this is what happens when one asks questions of a politician . Well In Scotland 

 

 

 

Edited December 19, 2022 by JudyJudyJudy

[JudyJudyJudy]

4 minutes ago, Lord Montpelier said:

I just take a simple view that I don't want any - any - bloke going into the same private space as my daughter. Anything that changes this won't get my support regardless of what 'evidence' is available. 

Good to hear . Least it seems that some men haven’t lost their common sense in this “ debate “ 👍 your in a majority mate . This is just an echo chamber if several “ woke “ posters who are trying ever so hard to be “ on the right sydd if history “ 

[JudyJudyJudy]

[JudyJudyJudy]

7 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Good to hear . Least it seems that some men haven’t lost their common sense in this “ debate “ 👍 your in a majority mate . This is just an echo chamber if several “ woke “ posters who are trying ever so hard to be “ on the right sydd if history “ 

The above attachments may be familiar to one poster , he posted the whole article last week 

[i wish jj was my dad]

There are a lot of images and Internet bletherings being posted by the forum activist in response to Uly's points but I have still to see any factual or constructive counter. 

 

 

 

 

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

And still no condemnation from

some posters on this about the events of last week when a group of men stopped women ( and some men ) from watching a film . Shameful really . 

[JimBett365]

16 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Not sure how someone who backs Elon Musk can post that image and keep a straight face. 😂

[JimBett365]

10 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

There are a lot of images and Internet bletherings being posted by the forum activist in response to Uly's points but I have still to see any factual or constructive counter. 

 

 

 

 

 

Unfortunately true. Noise over substance.

[JudyJudyJudy]

11 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

There are a lot of images and Internet bletherings being posted by the forum activist in response to Uly's points but I have still to see any factual or constructive counter. 

 

 

 

 

 

The fact is people can’t change sex . That’s the fact . There is no “ argument” 

[JimBett365]

5 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

The fact is people can’t change sex . That’s the fact . There is no “ argument” 

That’s not what is being discussed/debated on the last page or two though. Ulysses has asked you about aspects of the Irish legislation and its impact/lack of impact. Whether you agree with the principle or not, it’s possible to discuss the details and debate the way it has impacted in real life. Ulysses has already highlighted how you’ve avoided it.
 

Don’t take this personally but it does feel at times like your main contribution is to post links to other people who have the same opinion as you or to label anyone who disagrees as “woke”. You very rarely seem to type anything that seems an original thought or actually engage in a nuanced discussion. It’s always extremes with you and it can be really frustrating to try and engage with you because from other things you post you’re clearly a decent, caring person.

 

It’s possible to hold your fundamental view about changing sex and still be able to discuss the nuances with others who hold different views. I worry about the safe spaces issue and how it will impact my daughters in years to come. At the same time I see the new legislation working  well in Ireland and that reassures me that it can be made to work if done properly.

 

I hate the hyperbole that the militants/extremists/activists on both sides use. They add nothing to finding a solution. A solution will only be found by reasonable debate, compromise and empathy. Something that is clearly lacking from some.