Russia Invades Ukraine

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

I noticed Ukraine having a pop at Germany again.

 

The German government has been incredibly disappointing during this crisis. Arguably the EU’s most powerful country trying hard to wash its hands of any involvement or responsibility. 
 

Happy to pivot to the value of ‘European co-operation’ when it suits, quick to step away when it doesn’t.

[Pap]

2 hours ago, scott herbertson said:

Couple of missile strikes on the city of Kherson area - suggests they are softening it up to move in or pressure the occupiers out

 

Just hit a military base / airfield in Melitopol.

 

They're coming for them

[BlueRiver]

3 hours ago, DETTY29 said:

Something really stupid means the end of Putin.

 

I'm sure he was only ever meant to be in power for 8 years initially, then became defacto leader when Prime Minister (?) changed the rules so presidency isn't time bound and rigs elections he'd likely have won anyway so that opposition doesn't gain a momentum.

 

He's an ego maniac who wants to be in power till death.  And I don't believe he wants to die anytime soon.

Think it was the other way about. He gave Medvedev a bash as President whilst Putin took a shot of PM. I think there was either an amendment made on terms then. 

[Cruyff]

 

 

 

 

[Pap]

5 minutes ago, Cruyff said:

 

 

 

 

 

I Googled it to if theres anymore info on it. Its on Reddit. But it was 3 days ago. Im not on Reddit so couldnt see what they were saying. Wanted me to sign in as it had mature content.

 

I think the Reddit one was saying it was closed due to transporting military stuff.

Edited September 13, 2022 by Pap

[Cruyff]

9 minutes ago, Pap said:

 

I Googled it to if theres anymore info on it. Its on Reddit. But it was 3 days ago. Im not on Reddit so couldnt see what they were saying. Wanted me to sign in as it had mature content.

 

I think the Reddit one was saying it was closed due to transporting military stuff.

There was some fireworks display a couple of days ago where red square was closed of by dumpster trucks and police. This is  different and apparently happening now. 

[ri Alban]

4 hours ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

I noticed Ukraine having a pop at Germany again.

 

The German government has been incredibly disappointing during this crisis. Arguably the EU’s most powerful country trying hard to wash its hands of any involvement or responsibility. 
 

Happy to pivot to the value of ‘European co-operation’ when it suits, quick to step away when it doesn’t.

To be fair, if America wasn't GB's minder, GB wouldn't say boo to goose.

[redjambo]

Russian oligarchs and top businessmen appear to be incredibly accident-prone.

 

https://nypost.com/2022/09/12/russian-energy-exec-falls-to-his-death-from-boat/

[Cruyff]

 

Millions of Ukrainian's in "filtration camps" somewhere in Russia, massacres everywhere. 

 

Straight out the Hitler playbook. 

 

[SectionDJambo]

5 hours ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

I noticed Ukraine having a pop at Germany again.

 

The German government has been incredibly disappointing during this crisis. Arguably the EU’s most powerful country trying hard to wash its hands of any involvement or responsibility. 
 

Happy to pivot to the value of ‘European co-operation’ when it suits, quick to step away when it doesn’t.

Merkel got the Germans too reliant on the Russians for energy. Probably her programming whilst growing up in East Germany. She allowed the Russians to get themselves in a position where they could hurt Germany. The current leaders have to tread carefully as a result.

Just imagine if anyone was able to turn off our supply of gas. There's enough angst here about the prices rocketing up, never mind not having the supply to heat homes in the winter.

It's not the case that they haven't lifted a finger to help. They'll have learned a hard lesson from this.

[Debut 4]

1 hour ago, ri Alban said:

To be fair, if America wasn't GB's minder, GB wouldn't say boo to goose.

Not really the point.  Germany are surrounded by Allies who are helping.  

 

They aren’t being asked to do anything alone.  
 

 

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

17 minutes ago, SectionDJambo said:

Merkel got the Germans too reliant on the Russians for energy. Probably her programming whilst growing up in East Germany. She allowed the Russians to get themselves in a position where they could hurt Germany. The current leaders have to tread carefully as a result.

Just imagine if anyone was able to turn off our supply of gas. There's enough angst here about the prices rocketing up, never mind not having the supply to heat homes in the winter.

It's not the case that they haven't lifted a finger to help. They'll have learned a hard lesson from this.

They’re learning a hard lesson while countries around them contribute so much more, and while Ukraine does massive damage to Russia’s attempts to destabilise the region. I don’t think it lends much credibility to Germany for them to be saying ‘when we have to look out for ourselves, we will.’

 

In many ways, it’s one of the main strands of objection to the political structure of the EU - that countries like Germany always have it their own way.

[Mikey1874]

5 hours ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

I noticed Ukraine having a pop at Germany again.

 

The German government has been incredibly disappointing during this crisis. Arguably the EU’s most powerful country trying hard to wash its hands of any involvement or responsibility. 
 

Happy to pivot to the value of ‘European co-operation’ when it suits, quick to step away when it doesn’t.

 

Quite tricky to assess the German contribution. 

 

 

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

2 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Quite tricky to assess the German contribution. 

 

 

I’m sorry but that’s merely a way of passing the buck to other countries when it comes to who Russia blames for arming Ukraine. Spineless really.

[Sooks]

1 hour ago, ri Alban said:

To be fair, if America wasn't GB's minder, GB wouldn't say boo to goose.

America are the minder of every NATO country 

[OBE]

European Union...

 

When the pushing & shoving started In the EU during Covid, it was every country for themselves, with regard to securing PPE and vaccines. Italy was hung out to dry...shameful, from the other member states!

Edited September 13, 2022 by OBE

[Cruyff]

Germany is a feckin joke. They'll be lubing up for Putin come October begging him for gas. 

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

1 hour ago, OBE said:

European Union...

 

When the pushing & shoving started In the EU during Covid, it was every country for themselves, with regard to securing PPE and vaccines. Italy was hung out to dry...shameful, from the other member states!

It’s a weird thing where Brexit is shite but equally, the EU needs a kick up its bureaucratic, bottleless arse 

[JFK-1]

Reportedly the Germans have demanded Russia completely withdraw from all Ukrainian territory.

[Ulysses]

10 hours ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

I noticed Ukraine having a pop at Germany again.

 

The German government has been incredibly disappointing during this crisis. Arguably the EU’s most powerful country trying hard to wash its hands of any involvement or responsibility. 
 

Happy to pivot to the value of ‘European co-operation’ when it suits, quick to step away when it doesn’t.

 

Very poor leadership from Germany throughout the crisis.  It's a result of Germany pursuing a mercantilist approach to Russia since the late 90s.  They've always seen Russia as an energy supplier and a potential customer, and assumed that the economic links would be enough to prevent Russia going off the deep end.  They've been proved badly wrong.

[Ulysses]

4 hours ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

 

In many ways, it’s one of the main strands of objection to the political structure of the EU - that countries like Germany always have it their own way.

 

Countries like Germany?

 

I'd remind you that the list of countries like Germany is long enough, and used to include the UK.

 

What kept Germany getting its own way was, in fact, France - specifically, Macron's belief that Russia should be accommodated rather than humiliated in a conflict which in raw economic terms is hugely weighted against the Russians.

 

France's acquiescence to the German position has propped Germany's stance up and also prolonged the conflict.  But the more Ukraine shows that it might be capable of clearing the invasion force out of its territory, the more Macron is rethinking his original position.  That, in turn, will put pressure on Germany to pump more money and equipment into Ukraine. 

[Ulysses]

4 hours ago, OBE said:

European Union...

 

When the pushing & shoving started In the EU during Covid, it was every country for themselves, with regard to securing PPE and vaccines. Italy was hung out to dry...shameful, from the other member states!

 

 

The EU Covid-19 vaccination programme was a common programme.   That's why it was criticised at first, because its multinational nature meant that it took longer to get up and running. 

 

Bear in mind that the EU doesn't have a universal common foreign and security policy.

[Ulysses]

1 hour ago, JFK-1 said:

Reportedly the Germans have demanded Russia completely withdraw from all Ukrainian territory.

 

I'd imagine either that they haven't, or that they've done so in a bureaucratic bottleless way.

[Pap]

2 hours ago, JFK-1 said:

Reportedly the Germans have demanded Russia completely withdraw from all Ukrainian territory.

 

 

Putin isnt going to listen to Scholz.

 

Many countries have said the same.

 

 

[JFK-1]

Or perhaps the Germans after dragging their feet on the issue now want to back a winning horse. 

[The Mighty Thor]

6 hours ago, Ulysses said:

Bear in mind that the EU doesn't have a universal common foreign and security policy.

Hang on a minute.....what about that jack-booted European army Farage was banging on about?

[manaliveits105]

1 hour ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Hang on a minute.....what about that jack-booted European army Farage was banging on about?

They were too feart once the UK left 

[Pap]

 

[SectionDJambo]

The current UK government weren't exactly quick to impose sanctions on the Russian oligarchs, who have financial interests here, either. Gave them a few days to move their wealth out. Can't be upsetting a source of Conservative Party funding? 

Previously, Liz Truss was sent to Moscow to tell the Russians how cross the UK government would be if they invaded Ukraine. They invaded Ukraine a few days later. 

The Russians played a long game by creating an energy supply domination in Europe. Goodness knows what their money also bought within the UK.

There won't be many European countries who didn't allow themselves to be compromised by Putin over quite a few years.

[OBE]

9 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

 

The EU Covid-19 vaccination programme was a common programme.   That's why it was criticised at first, because its multinational nature meant that it took longer to get up and running. 

 

Bear in mind that the EU doesn't have a universal common foreign and security policy.

 

One, just one member state could've made a friend for life, if they had shared their (PPE, Vaccine) surplus. Drawbridge EU, was exposed, it scunnered me!

[Mikey1874]

10 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

Countries like Germany?

 

I'd remind you that the list of countries like Germany is long enough, and used to include the UK.

 

What kept Germany getting its own way was, in fact, France - specifically, Macron's belief that Russia should be accommodated rather than humiliated in a conflict which in raw economic terms is hugely weighted against the Russians.

 

France's acquiescence to the German position has propped Germany's stance up and also prolonged the conflict.  But the more Ukraine shows that it might be capable of clearing the invasion force out of its territory, the more Macron is rethinking his original position.  That, in turn, will put pressure on Germany to pump more money and equipment into Ukraine. 

 

That's a broad brush statement. I'd say it's more complicated.

 

NATO is leading the response though clearly it's not issuing public statements. So Britain is acting as part of NATO, not independently.  And it was Zelensky who asked Macron to speak to Putin at the time people were criticising Macron for it. 

Edited September 14, 2022 by Mikey1874

[il Duce McTarkin]

3 hours ago, SectionDJambo said:

 

The Russians played a long game by creating an energy supply domination in Europe.

 

 

Intelligence agencies have been banging this drum for years, but with well placed political muscle on the Ivan payroll, there have been a lot of deaf ears about.

 

We have to hope that there is sufficient political will within Europe to let NATO destroy Putin's version of Russia within the confines of this proxy war in the Ukraine.

 

 

Edited September 14, 2022 by Dirk McClaymore

[Pap]

Absolute desperation stuff 😳

 

https://twitter.com/francis_scarr/status/1570016888159100928?s=20&t=7si-PU3_EQr1Rm4z7Lms-w

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

Saw someone commenting earlier about Corbyn trying to stop the war while Russia were balls deep into Ukrainian territory. What a grim old fud that prick is

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

2 minutes ago, Pap said:

Absolute desperation stuff 😳

 

https://twitter.com/francis_scarr/status/1570016888159100928?s=20&t=7si-PU3_EQr1Rm4z7Lms-w

Christ on a bike. Makes you realise what a deranged country Russia is (although to be fair, anyone turning on GB News would think the same about the UK)

[DETTY29]

15 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

Saw someone commenting earlier about Corbyn trying to stop the war while Russia were balls deep into Ukrainian territory. What a grim old fud that prick is

The mad world of poiltics where Corbyn and Trump are aligned, Obama and Cameron weak and Johnson and Biden dual pillars of strength.

[Pap]

There isnt any Ukranian soldiers left, apparently

 

I'm certain they are being told to say these things but i wonder if these guys actually believe it.

 

I also wonder that, if there was a coup. Would some of these people in these TV shows breathe a sigh of relief?

[OBE]

1 hour ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

Christ on a bike. Makes you realise what a deranged country Russia is (although to be fair, anyone turning on GB News would think the same about the UK)

 

Our super toffs like a costume...

[Mikey1874]

Ukraine has lost a lot of good fighters.

 

But it's still training a lot more and more weapons are arriving all the time.

 

Russia will need to find something. 

 

 

[Ulysses]

10 hours ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Hang on a minute.....what about that jack-booted European army Farage was banging on about?

 

It went the same way as Turkish accession to the EU and straight bananas.

[The Mighty Thor]

1 minute ago, Ulysses said:

 

It went the same way as Turkish accession to the EU and straight bananas.

Whaaaaatttt? Turkey's not in the EU?

 

FFS! Farage will be distraught. 

[Ulysses]

7 hours ago, OBE said:

 

One, just one member state could've made a friend for life, if they had shared their (PPE, Vaccine) surplus. Drawbridge EU, was exposed, it scunnered me!

 

It did in its arse "scunner you".  

 

You need to stop making a fool of yourself about vaccines.  The EU ran a common programme in which all member states got equal access.  Some member states didn't draw down their allocated amounts for two reasons - lack of take-up or alternative sources - and those spare doses were reallocated.  The EU also exported vaccine doses right around the world at the same time as the European rollout was starting - not like the UK and the United States who shared nothing until nearer the end of theirs.

[Ulysses]

6 hours ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

That's a broad brush statement. I'd say it's more complicated.

 

NATO is leading the response though clearly it's not issuing public statements. So Britain is acting as part of NATO, not independently.  And it was Zelensky who asked Macron to speak to Putin at the time people were criticising Macron for it. 

 

Ah, but bear in mind that you're talking about Ukraine.  I'm responding to those who can't see the issue (maybe any issue) except in terms of "EU BOO HOO" politics - and in those terms, countries "like Germany" don't get their way in the EU without a lot of help from other countries. 

 

As regards NATO, the unspoken reality is that NATO is doing its best to make this a proxy war, and the chances are that the USA will put in the lion's share of the money and effort, while the European members will share the rest of the  load between them.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

1 hour ago, Ulysses said:

 

Ah, but bear in mind that you're talking about Ukraine.  I'm responding to those who can't see the issue (maybe any issue) except in terms of "EU BOO HOO" politics - and in those terms, countries "like Germany" don't get their way in the EU without a lot of help from other countries. 

 

As regards NATO, the unspoken reality is that NATO is doing its best to make this a proxy war, and the chances are that the USA will put in the lion's share of the money and effort, while the European members will share the rest of the  load between them.

 

And TBF, there are over 300 million of us and we have the world's de facto reserve currency that's currently saving us from the crippling energy costs Europe is seeing, so I'm okay with that.

[BlueRiver]

1 hour ago, Ulysses said:

 

It did in its arse "scunner you".  

 

You need to stop making a fool of yourself about vaccines.  The EU ran a common programme in which all member states got equal access.  Some member states didn't draw down their allocated amounts for two reasons - lack of take-up or alternative sources - and those spare doses were reallocated.  The EU also exported vaccine doses right around the world at the same time as the European rollout was starting - not like the UK and the United States who shared nothing until nearer the end of theirs.

I do take exception on that final point. The EU didn’t export them. They allowed businesses to fill existing contractual obligations with third party countries. The UK did not have the manufacturing set up to do likewise. 
 

If you can show me where the EU signed away their own doses to others I’ll concede but it is an important distinction otherwise. Otherwise, it’s not the UK’s fault it had better contract lawyers. 
 

[BlueRiver]

2 minutes ago, Led Tasso said:

 

And TBF, there are over 300 million of us and we have the world's de facto reserve currency that's currently saving us from the crippling energy costs Europe is seeing, so I'm okay with that.

In all fairness it’s pretty good value for money considering Russia will be weakened for quite some time on this and that’s never too low down the US foreign policy checklist. 

[Watt-Zeefuik]

29 minutes ago, BlueRiver said:

In all fairness it’s pretty good value for money considering Russia will be weakened for quite some time on this and that’s never too low down the US foreign policy checklist. 

That rather depends on who's in the White House, unfortunately.

[il Duce McTarkin]

29 minutes ago, BlueRiver said:

In all fairness it’s pretty good value for money considering Russia will be weakened for quite some time on this and that’s never too low down the US foreign policy checklist. 

 

Chinese are pishing themselves.

[JFK-1]

Claims of an assassination attempt on Putin coming in. Allegedly a bomb attack on his motorcade.

[Cruyff]

6 minutes ago, JFK-1 said:

Claims of an assassination attempt on Putin coming in. Allegedly a bomb attack on his motorcade.

Someone will get him.