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Russia Invades Ukraine


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55 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

 

Bit sensitive. She made points in clear and concise way and nothing she said wasn't true.

Absolutely no point in crying about energy bills on one thread while professing support for Ukraine in another.

Not saying it is you two who are doing this but plenty other are.

Supporting Ukraine costing UK, and other countries, billions which tax payers need to fund. The expectation that we should simply have government pick up shortfall is naive beyond belief, but it gives folk reason to moan.

That's all well and fine but I'd trust her, and her husband, as far as I could throw them. A separate issue from funding a war !

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1 hour ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

 

Bit sensitive. She made points in clear and concise way and nothing she said wasn't true.

Absolutely no point in crying about energy bills on one thread while professing support for Ukraine in another.

Not saying it is you two who are doing this but plenty other are.

Supporting Ukraine costing UK, and other countries, billions which tax payers need to fund. The expectation that we should simply have government pick up shortfall is naive beyond belief, but it gives folk reason to moan.

The government don't need to pick up anything. Just put the cap back on these crocks who are shafting us. Oh and Germany and France import all their fuel. We produce our own, yet we're paying a lot more. Right... So that's why the Tories ain't putting the cap back. Conflict in bank account interests. Hopefully the public will hang the whole Tory front bench.

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What is this myth that if we let Russia win then your energy bills will fall back to "normal"? :cornette:

 

Where the shite did that pish come from?

If Russia wins then they'll be able to openly blackmail/extort anyone that buys their energy products any time they want anything and your bills stay high forever.

And that means any time the EU or NATO says anything against them, the taps get turned off.

This war has just exposed how insecure The West's energy supply is and how easy it is for hostile nations to use energy supply as a weapon.

 

As I've said many times in this thread, we should have realised that in the 1970s with the OPEC embargos and oil crisis.

The West has to become energy self sufficient, and as we don't have much oil and gas left, that means transitioning to renewables and/or nuclear as fast as possible.

We cannot allow world peace to be threatened by batshit mental regimes just because they have oil.

 

Saudis and Russia won't have much pull on the world stage if we don't need to buy their oil and gas.

 

For right now, Russia has to lose this war, and be seen to have lost it in the eyes of the entire world, including their allies.

No other option exists.

Edited by Cade
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26 minutes ago, Cade said:

What is this myth that if we let Russia win then your energy bills will fall back to "normal"? :cornette:

 

Where the shite did that pish come from?

If Russia wins then they'll be able to openly blackmail/extort anyone that buys their energy products any time they want anything and your bills stay high forever.

And that means any time the EU or NATO says anything against them, the taps get turned off.

This war has just exposed how insecure The West's energy supply is and how easy it is for hostile nations to use energy supply as a weapon.

 

As I've said many times in this thread, we should have realised that in the 1970s with the OPEC embargos and oil crisis.

The West has to become energy self sufficient, and as we don't have much oil and gas left, that means transitioning to renewables and/or nuclear as fast as possible.

We cannot allow world peace to be threatened by batshit mental regimes just because they have oil.

 

Saudis and Russia won't have much pull on the world stage if we don't need to buy their oil and gas.

 

For right now, Russia has to lose this war, and be seen to have lost it in the eyes of the entire world, including their allies.

No other option exists.

Great Post

 

Another I harp about is trading with China.

Hate this attitude of buying from another hostile nation and shipping thousands of miles. Why? Because its cheaper.

Would rather pay more and source local.

 

 

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4 hours ago, hmfcbilly said:

'Reward' for staying alive....sign up to fight your own people 🙈 honestly cannot understand why the rest of the world is allowing this to happen if its as black and white as it seems?

 

You've got the worst war crimes taking place there. 

 

If you're a Western or other leader you should have to justify why you let this happen. Security was meant to be guaranteed for Ukraine after it gave up its nuclear weapons. Then it should have been possible for NATO to enforce that more recently. 

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17 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

You've got the worst war crimes taking place there. 

 

If you're a Western or other leader you should have to justify why you let this happen. Security was meant to be guaranteed for Ukraine after it gave up its nuclear weapons. Then it should have been possible for NATO to enforce that more recently. 

Indeed. You should read about what Wagner did in Cameroon, nevermind Syria and Ukraine. They go all over the world clearing out villages or certain ethnic peoples for Governments across the world. They are savages. 

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13 hours ago, Boab said:

I wouldn't go that far but you couldn't redden her neck with a blowtorch !

Talking about us “ counting pennies while they count bodies “ in a condescending way. A shyster with a dodgy financial CV shouldn't be talking about anyone.

Doesn't alter the fact that this conflict needs sorted pronto. There has been enough suffering.

 

You don't think we would be saying the exact same things if it were thousands of Scots under bombardment being killed?

 

As say German civilians complain about the cost of keeping us free.

 

Ukraine is on the front line, we're not, yet, and I think most would prefer paying up to burying their family.

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23 minutes ago, JFK-1 said:

 

You don't think we would be saying the exact same things if it were thousands of Scots under bombardment being killed?

 

As say German civilians complain about the cost of keeping us free.

 

Ukraine is on the front line, we're not, yet, and I think most would prefer paying up to burying their family.

 

 

Ukraine is on the front line but those in Kiev are living pretty normal life's and not struggling to pay the bills. They may be sending young men to die but we're gonna either starve or freeze to death. Zelensky can shove a HIMARS up his arse.

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2 hours ago, Herbert. said:

 

 

Ukraine is on the front line but those in Kiev are living pretty normal life's and not struggling to pay the bills. They may be sending young men to die but we're gonna either starve or freeze to death. Zelensky can shove a HIMARS up his arse.

 

Well I don't know what sort of place you're living in, but no one I know is going to be freezing or starving to death. Or being blown to smithereens. Ukrainians are.

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5 hours ago, Herbert. said:

 

 

Ukraine is on the front line but those in Kiev are living pretty normal life's and not struggling to pay the bills. They may be sending young men to die but we're gonna either starve or freeze to death. Zelensky can shove a HIMARS up his arse.

Get a ****ing grip.

Our government are the needing to get a grip on the energy price rise, the energy companies are making massive profits on it. Its madness.

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5 hours ago, JFK-1 said:

 

Well I don't know what sort of place you're living in, but no one I know is going to be freezing or starving to death. Or being blown to smithereens. Ukrainians are.

 

 

Before the prices went up there were loads of people such as pensioners and single parent families that already lived in poverty hence the creation of food banks. Now the energy bills have went mental those people will literally be fighting for survival. People in Kiev will be better off than people in the U.K but we've to support them?

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6 hours ago, JFK-1 said:

 

Well I don't know what sort of place you're living in, but no one I know is going to be freezing or starving to death. Or being blown to smithereens. Ukrainians are.

You obviously turna blind eye and ear to the UK media then.

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8 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

You obviously turna blind eye and ear to the UK media then.

 

I'm not in the UK, haven't been home in 10 years. But I have family and many lifelong friends there I keep in contact with. They bitch about prices but everybody does, everywhere.

 

But no one is freezing or starving. To my knowledge. 

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18 minutes ago, JFK-1 said:

 

I'm not in the UK, haven't been home in 10 years. But I have family and many lifelong friends there I keep in contact with. They bitch about prices but everybody does, everywhere.

 

But no one is freezing or starving. To my knowledge. 

Then I suggest you start watching and listening, and reading the British media. Shouldn't be to difficult in this day and age.

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9 hours ago, JFK-1 said:

 

You don't think we would be saying the exact same things if it were thousands of Scots under bombardment being killed?

 

As say German civilians complain about the cost of keeping us free.

 

Ukraine is on the front line, we're not, yet, and I think most would prefer paying up to burying their family.

We ?

Yes, I agree, but I'm not talking about the Ukrainian people, I'm talking about a couple of shysters who have been, allegedly, spiriting money out the country. I'm not buying the khaki T-shirt persona. They are frauds.

Having empathy for the people and distain of Putin's actions is a completely different thing !

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1 hour ago, Herbert. said:

 

 

Before the prices went up there were loads of people such as pensioners and single parent families that already lived in poverty hence the creation of food banks. Now the energy bills have went mental those people will literally be fighting for survival. People in Kiev will be better off than people in the U.K but we've to support them?

 

Shockaroooony!...Bairns are expensive, maybe been wiser (:brows:) to keep their hand on their ha' penie's...Or could the Bairn be used as a fast-track to a gaff?

Edited by OBE
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10 minutes ago, JFK-1 said:

 

I'm not in the UK, haven't been home in 10 years. But I have family and many lifelong friends there I keep in contact with. They bitch about prices but everybody does, everywhere.

 

But no one is freezing or starving. To my knowledge. 

 

OK I'm wrong then, people aren't using food banks, there aren't trolleys at every supermarket for donations, energy bills aren't crippling people. I've made it all up. Your friends are probably right, They went up enough to have a moan about but it's nothing serious.

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1 hour ago, John Findlay said:

Then I suggest you start watching and listening, and reading the British media. Shouldn't be to difficult in this day and age.

 

It will be no different in any relevant way than I see here in the US. This crisis isn't just a British issue. 

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52 minutes ago, Herbert. said:

 

OK I'm wrong then, people aren't using food banks, there aren't trolleys at every supermarket for donations, energy bills aren't crippling people. I've made it all up. Your friends are probably right, They went up enough to have a moan about but it's nothing serious.

 

No one but you said it isn't serious. So what's your point?

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Jeffros Furios
41 minutes ago, JFK-1 said:

 

It will be no different in any relevant way than I see here in the US. This crisis isn't just a British issue. 

80% in energy costs from 1st Oct and then a further 50% increase in January . 

Not seeing anything like that in Europe and don't expect the US is seeing those sort of increase. 

Anyway glory to Ukraine and may every invading  Russian pig die . 

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52 minutes ago, Jeffros Furios said:

80% in energy costs from 1st Oct and then a further 50% increase in January . 

Not seeing anything like that in Europe and don't expect the US is seeing those sort of increase. 

Anyway glory to Ukraine and may every invading  Russian pig die . 

 

The price of petrol soared in the US, and that's a very big thing for them.

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15 minutes ago, Herbert. said:

 

 

Obviously you don't get sarcasm.

 

See here's the thing, geo politically this is a Poland moment, and what we do now will affect all of the West for decades to come. It's the very reason they're so intent on doing it.


And furthering the Poland analogy at this juncture just giving up would have been like saying you know what just let him have it when Hitler took Poland, cos otherwise it will be a huge pain in the arse. And in fact that's exactly what Chamberlain wanted to do, but was persuaded otherwise.


Geo politically the stakes in this crisis are strikingly similar. Plus we're facing a mafia boss like tyrant, just like Poland. You want to give the dictator what he wants because prices are up.


Politicians worry about it too, but wiser heads than either you or me have decided we must do this. And I can see why.  

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36 minutes ago, JFK-1 said:

 

See here's the thing, geo politically this is a Poland moment, and what we do now will affect all of the West for decades to come. It's the very reason they're so intent on doing it.


And furthering the Poland analogy at this juncture just giving up would have been like saying you know what just let him have it when Hitler took Poland, cos otherwise it will be a huge pain in the arse. And in fact that's exactly what Chamberlain wanted to do, but was persuaded otherwise.


Geo politically the stakes in this crisis are strikingly similar. Plus we're facing a mafia boss like tyrant, just like Poland. You want to give the dictator what he wants because prices are up.


Politicians worry about it too, but wiser heads than either you or me have decided we must do this. And I can see why.  

 

 

This isn't a Poland moment, Russia has taken control of ethnicity Russian areas of Ukraine. It would be like Germany taking the Sudetenland. At most this is going to turn into a situation like Northern Ireland. Its got nowt to do with us, Russia isn't a threat to the U.K nor are we a target for them unless we prove them which we've been doing.

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51 minutes ago, JFK-1 said:

 

See here's the thing, geo politically this is a Poland moment, and what we do now will affect all of the West for decades to come. It's the very reason they're so intent on doing it.


And furthering the Poland analogy at this juncture just giving up would have been like saying you know what just let him have it when Hitler took Poland, cos otherwise it will be a huge pain in the arse. And in fact that's exactly what Chamberlain wanted to do, but was persuaded otherwise.


Geo politically the stakes in this crisis are strikingly similar. Plus we're facing a mafia boss like tyrant, just like Poland. You want to give the dictator what he wants because prices are up.


Politicians worry about it too, but wiser heads than either you or me have decided we must do this. And I can see why.  

The irony of this analogy is, the Germans and Soviets invaded Poland, the Soviets' excuse being it was to aid their friends in Ukraine, with parts of it being illegally annexed by Poland.

There is an argument that if there was a “ Poland “ moment, why wasn't it in 2014, when Russia annexed Crimea...to Ukraine's detriment as they think of it as sovereign ?

It's not an easy problem to solve really.

Edited by Boab
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57 minutes ago, Herbert. said:

 

 

This isn't a Poland moment, Russia has taken control of ethnicity Russian areas of Ukraine. It would be like Germany taking the Sudetenland. At most this is going to turn into a situation like Northern Ireland. Its got nowt to do with us, Russia isn't a threat to the U.K nor are we a target for them unless we prove them which we've been doing.

 

Okay, so you need to gather your assumed expertise and consult NATO, the UN, plus the US and UK governments along with I think it was 50 other countries at the last count all supporting Ukraine. And all of them have forgotten more in the last 5 minutes about what's at stake here than you will ever know.


If you think this is none of our business as these nations suffer this crisis while spending huge amounts of money to do so, then you're on a different planet from these analysts and me too. So you had your say, there's mine. And in such a situation I have nothing else to speak to you about on this issue.

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52 minutes ago, Boab said:

The irony of this analogy is, the Germans and Soviets invaded Poland, the Soviets' excuse being it was to aid their friends in Ukraine, with parts of it being illegally annexed by Poland.

There is an argument that if there was a “ Poland “ moment, why wasn't it in 2014, when Russia annexed Crimea...to Ukraine's detriment as they think of it as sovereign ?

It's not an easy problem to solve really.

 

US administration at the time of Crimea decided to let it slide, hoping it would stop there. Clearly it hasn't. This is exactly like the democracies facing off against the dictatorships pre WW2. This time instead of a German/Italian/Japanese axis it's Russia/China.

 

And neither of them will stop their expansion voluntarily. Look at the irony in that. The WW2 axis are now our allies, our WW2 allies are now the axis.

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2 minutes ago, JFK-1 said:

 

US administration at the time of Crimea decided to let it slide, hoping it would stop there. Clearly it hasn't. This is exactly like the democracies facing off against the dictatorships pre WW2. This time instead of a German/Italian/Japanese axis it's Russia/China.

 

And neither of them will stop their expansion voluntarily. Look at the irony in that. The WW2 axis are now our allies, our WW2 allies are now the axis.

We could open up the debate to talk about China/Taiwan and the South China Sea conundrum but best maybe to leave that for another thread. 

I get the irony of how allies change but if the Yanks decided to let it slide in 2014, as you say, it could be argued that that was their Chamberlain moment.

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5 hours ago, JFK-1 said:

 

I'm not in the UK, haven't been home in 10 years. But I have family and many lifelong friends there I keep in contact with. They bitch about prices but everybody does, everywhere.

 

But no one is freezing or starving. To my knowledge. 

Want to bet? You don't know what you're talking about.

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39 minutes ago, JFK-1 said:

 

US administration at the time of Crimea decided to let it slide, hoping it would stop there. Clearly it hasn't. This is exactly like the democracies facing off against the dictatorships pre WW2. This time instead of a German/Italian/Japanese axis it's Russia/China.

 

And neither of them will stop their expansion voluntarily. Look at the irony in that. The WW2 axis are now our allies, our WW2 allies are now the axis.

When you giving Mexico back their land, or is your empire, alright.

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4 hours ago, JFK-1 said:

 

No one but you said it isn't serious. So what's your point?

His point is ,you are talking shite.

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1 hour ago, JFK-1 said:

 

Okay, so you need to gather your assumed expertise and consult NATO, the UN, plus the US and UK governments along with I think it was 50 other countries at the last count all supporting Ukraine. And all of them have forgotten more in the last 5 minutes about what's at stake here than you will ever know.


If you think this is none of our business as these nations suffer this crisis while spending huge amounts of money to do so, then you're on a different planet from these analysts and me too. So you had your say, there's mine. And in such a situation I have nothing else to speak to you about on this issue.

 

I know what's at stake, What's at stake is Ukraine becomes a pro russian buffer instead of a pro American buffer state. That's all America is interested in oh and the profiteering, They don't care about Ukrainians they just want to keep big bad russia away, You know if America is backing someone there's a politician or two making money from it, The last 20+ years has shown that these analysts and intelligence agencies are on a different planet. I'm still waiting to see WMD in Iraq.

 

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Liz Truss probably going to increase support for Ukraine.

 

Gives her a diversion under severe pressure from issues in UK as well as she is committed to it. She did support UK people going over to fight early on. 

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16 hours ago, Debut 4 said:

But we aren’t a target….🙄🤔

 

 

Every country spies on each other. America will have spies in the UK and we will have spies there. Hardly anything new.

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Russia buying millions of artillery rounds and rockets from North Korea, and hiring North Korean construction workers to repair the damage done in eastern Ukraine.

 

They're running out of stuff to shoot. :jj:

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23 minutes ago, Cade said:

Russia buying millions of artillery rounds and rockets from North Korea, and hiring North Korean construction workers to repair the damage done in eastern Ukraine.

 

They're running out of stuff to shoot. :jj:

 

Thing is. Now they will have access to literally unlimited weapons. And for peanuts.

 

Still though, it must be massively humiliating always having to ask threir mates to help them out.

 

Noticed Ukraine are making an announcement tonight. "Good news". Hopefully made some more decent gains.

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Malinga the Swinga
1 hour ago, Cade said:

Russia buying millions of artillery rounds and rockets from North Korea, and hiring North Korean construction workers to repair the damage done in eastern Ukraine.

 

They're running out of stuff to shoot. :jj:

Given how reliant North Korea's missiles seem to be, I wouldn't be too keen to use them. Just shows the desperation Russia is as even China won't sell them anything.

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Given that NK are armed to the teeth, even if 15% off ammo was dud they are still getting a lot for their money.

 

Probably a significantly positive outcome from the Russian point of view.

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Footballfirst
44 minutes ago, Pap said:

Noticed Ukraine are making an announcement tonight. "Good news". Hopefully made some more decent gains.

There are reports that Ukraine has started a counter offensive in the Kharkiv Oblast in the NE of the country.

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