Should Scotland be an independent country?

[i8hibsh]

Seems to me that the SNP are scared of 2 topics.

 

Immigration and fiscal reality.

 

 

[XB52]

Good to see 2/3rds of JKB voters support independence, hard to believe with the amount of anti-snp/pro union posts.

[Unknown user]

25 minutes ago, i8hibsh said:

 

 

You don't think fiscal reality is worth discussing as part of 'independence'?

 

I find your attitude very worrying.

 

"Should Scotland be an independent country?"

 

This isn't the thread for ranting about the SNP

[Dazo]

35 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

Because the continued suppression of Scotland's democratic will is a disgrace, and they're better placed than anyone to put the greater good first.

Thats just your opinion not a fact so not really applicable. 

[i8hibsh]

2 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

"Should Scotland be an independent country?"

 

This isn't the thread for ranting about the SNP

 

 

Do you wear a high vis vest for your stewardship of this thread?

 

My answer is no, and for about 7 pages now I am giving my reasons as to why I think so.

 

I will always rant when the SNP are brought into discusison as with every inch of my being I despise them to the core.

 

It is also a ridiculous question as a 'yes' vote will not make Scotland independent.  We will be a highly DEPENDENT country.

 

We would probably have more independence with a no vote.

[Unknown user]

5 minutes ago, Dazo said:

Thats just your opinion not a fact so not really applicable. 

 

Whose opinion were you expecting when you asked me a direct question?

[Unknown user]

Just now, i8hibsh said:

 

 

Do you wear a high vis vest for your stewardship of this thread?

 

My answer is no, and for about 7 pages now I am giving my reasons as to why I think so.

 

I will always rant when the SNP are brought into discusison as with every inch of my being I despise them to the core.

 

It is also a ridiculous question as a 'yes' vote will not make Scotland independent.  We will be a highly DEPENDENT country.

 

We would probably have more independence with a no vote.

 

Why should Scotland not be an independent country?

[Dazo]

2 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

Whose opinion were you expecting when you asked me a direct question?

I was expecting a positive response why people should vote for independence. Not your opinion on how ever Scot feels. I have never felt suppressed in my life as I’d imagine have the majority of Scots. So unless you lose the chip on your shoulder and start providing positive achievable reasons to such a monumental change it will never happen. 

[i8hibsh]

Just now, Smithee said:

 

Why should Scotland not be an independent country?

 

 

For me, it simply is not important to me.  I like being British and feel no less Scottish for being so.

 

I feel we would be more secure both financially and physically.

 

I also don't trust these SNP reprobates to run the country - they are a totalitarian regime and don't even hide it.

 

I also want an end to mass immigration - infact this is one of my top priorities and get put off by Sturgeon and her 'Refugees welcome' attitude.

 

I see the blueprint for an 'independent' Scotland as just us being another globalist cog - I am a nationalist and oppose globalism.

 

We would not have a currency that would not make us fully dependent.

 

Starting a fresh with the staggering debt we would acquire as our pro rated share gives me the fear.

 

We have way too much scum in this country to give me confidence.

 

We have too many public sector workers, too much welfare that I feel could not be financially supported.

 

I do not want to be in the European Union (unlike the mass unionist Sturgeon and her mafia).

 

We based our entire future economy on oil and the life span of oil is approx 30 more years before the demand is zero.

 

These are just a few off the top of my head.  I guess the main one is that I just don't want it.

 

 

 

[Savage Vince]

1 hour ago, i8hibsh said:

 

How tolerant.

 

I never claimed to be tolerant of your lot. 

[Unknown user]

13 minutes ago, Dazo said:

I was expecting a positive response why people should vote for independence. Not your opinion on how ever Scot feels. I have never felt suppressed in my life as I’d imagine have the majority of Scots. So unless you lose the chip on your shoulder and start providing positive achievable reasons to such a monumental change it will never happen. 

 

Think you're projecting a bit!

 

Scotland would get a government it voted for and would be able to change that government.

Is there a bigger positive than that?

[i8hibsh]

Just now, Smithee said:

 

Think you're projecting a bit!

 

Scotland would get a government it voted for and would be able to change that government.

Is there a bigger positive than that?

 

 

Scotland have regularly had a government it voted for.  Do you understand that you will never satisfy everyone?

 

 

[i8hibsh]

4 minutes ago, Savage Vince said:

 

I never claimed to be tolerant of your lot. 

 

 

Good old acceptable bigotry

 

 

 

 

[Unknown user]

5 minutes ago, i8hibsh said:

 

 

For me, it simply is not important to me.  I like being British and feel no less Scottish for being so.

 

I feel we would be more secure both financially and physically.

 

I also don't trust these SNP reprobates to run the country - they are a totalitarian regime and don't even hide it.

 

I also want an end to mass immigration - infact this is one of my top priorities and get put off by Sturgeon and her 'Refugees welcome' attitude.

 

I see the blueprint for an 'independent' Scotland as just us being another globalist cog - I am a nationalist and oppose globalism.

 

We would not have a currency that would not make us fully dependent.

 

Starting a fresh with the staggering debt we would acquire as our pro rated share gives me the fear.

 

We have way too much scum in this country to give me confidence.

 

We have too many public sector workers, too much welfare that I feel could not be financially supported.

 

I do not want to be in the European Union (unlike the mass unionist Sturgeon and her mafia).

 

We based our entire future economy on oil and the life span of oil is approx 30 more years before the demand is zero.

 

These are just a few off the top of my head.  I guess the main one is that I just don't want it.

 

 

Absolute bollocks on top of absolute bollocks, at least you're straight with the last line.

[i8hibsh]

Yes'ers just can't accept that their vote is no more important than anyone else's and such is life that people see the world differently.

 

I just don't see this mass oppression and injustice the 'Saltire Gang' do.

 

 

[Unknown user]

1 minute ago, i8hibsh said:

 

 

Scotland have regularly had a government it voted for.  Do you understand that you will never satisfy everyone?

Scotland's never voted Tory in my lifetime, they'll be in charge for a while yet.

 

I know that ignoring Scotland's democratic view in favour of the status quo suits you, but that's because your lot are in charge.

[Savage Vince]

5 minutes ago, i8hibsh said:

 

 

Good old acceptable bigotry

 

 

 

 

 

You'd know about bigotry. 

[i8hibsh]

Just now, Savage Vince said:

 

You'd know about bigotry. 

 

 

Indeed I do.  We all hold it.  Just some are not self righteous.

[i8hibsh]

4 minutes ago, Smithee said:

Scotland's never voted Tory in my lifetime, they'll be in charge for a while yet.

 

I know that ignoring Scotland's democratic view in favour of the status quo suits you, but that's because your lot are in charge.

 

 

There have been plenty of Labour governments and there are lots of Tory voters in Scotland.

 

This 'No Tories in Scotland' is a myth.

[Savage Vince]

3 minutes ago, i8hibsh said:

Just some are not self righteous.

 

That's quite an incredible statement coming from you. 😁

[Unknown user]

2 minutes ago, i8hibsh said:

 

 

There have been plenty of Labour governments and there are lots of Tory voters in Scotland.

 

This 'No Tories in Scotland' is a myth.

 

More a straw man.

 

Why should the government of Scotland not represent the electorate's vote? Is that democracy?

 

 

[i8hibsh]

3 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

More a straw man.

 

Why should the government of Scotland not represent the electorate's vote? Is that democracy?

 

 

 

 

The people of Scotland democratically voted to be included as the UK not individual and seperate.

[Unknown user]

2 minutes ago, i8hibsh said:

 

The people of Scotland democratically voted to be included as the UK not individual and seperate.

 

Aye but that was a generation ago, keep up.

 

Why should Scotland not have a government that represents it's electorate and has its best interests at heart? Why is it better to be clung on to the tail of an increasingly right lurching, brutal ******* of a government when we roundly dismissed that party?

[Dazo]

24 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

Think you're projecting a bit!

 

Scotland would get a government it voted for and would be able to change that government.

Is there a bigger positive than that?

If that’s the biggest positive then nationalists are in for a lifetime of disappointment. A big percentage of people are doing well, getting a government they voted for won’t sway them. People generally look at things selfishly when voting and I’ve heard nothing to suggest things will be any better not only for those people or the country as a whole. 

[i8hibsh]

1 minute ago, Smithee said:

 

Aye but that was a generation ago, keep up.

 

Why should Scotland not have a government that represents it's electorate and has its best interests at heart? Why is it better to be clung on to the tail of an increasingly right lurching, brutal ******* of a government when we roundly dismissed that party?

 

You simply have no viable repsonse to the whole 'we voted to be as one' do you?  It was democracy.

 

I tell you what is not democracy - going into a hissy fit once the votes are counted and decision made, demand a recount then every day after demand another vote until you get a result that favours you.

 

As for your second paragraph...what are our interests exactly? Surely 'our' interests are pretty much the exact same as Joe Bloggs in Wales, England and N.Ireland?

 

Jobs, security, education, NHS, strong welfare, strong public services, robust and fair legal/justice system, good pensions I imagine are pretty standard across the board.  Not enough 'free shit' for you Smithee?

[Unknown user]

4 minutes ago, i8hibsh said:

 

You simply have no viable repsonse to the whole 'we voted to be as one' do you?  It was democracy.

 

I tell you what is not democracy - going into a hissy fit once the votes are counted and decision made, demand a recount then every day after demand another vote until you get a result that favours you.

 

As for your second paragraph...what are our interests exactly? Surely 'our' interests are pretty much the exact same as Joe Bloggs in Wales, England and N.Ireland?

 

Jobs, security, education, NHS, strong welfare, strong public services, robust and fair legal/justice system, good pensions I imagine are pretty standard across the board.  Not enough 'free shit' for you Smithee?

 

Democracy doesn't stop with a vote, it carries on after as well 🤷‍♂️

 

Our interests are wide and varied, we're geographically very different from England. Westminster will make decisions for England, we all know that. If we're lucky it might be good for us too.

 

The things you list exist but so what? Are they being run the best way for Scotland? Are they ****! 

 

The next Westminster election, Scotland might as well all stay home and not bother voting.

[Unknown user]

8 minutes ago, Dazo said:

If that’s the biggest positive then nationalists are in for a lifetime of disappointment. A big percentage of people are doing well, getting a government they voted for won’t sway them. People generally look at things selfishly when voting and I’ve heard nothing to suggest things will be any better not only for those people or the country as a whole. 

 

Sorry, is this fact or just your opinion so not really applicable?

[Unknown user]

I didn't even vote 

[Alex Kintner]

3 hours ago, Ked said:

Ok it's an anonymous poll.

I faked up there.

The discrepancies in this poll and the ones Uly cited though?

As compared to the result and other polling.

 

 

Can it be just football fans ?

That doesnt seem right.

Takes a proper man to admit he’s wrong 👍🏻
 

The football thing perhaps comes from the fact most club football fans will also support the national team and inherent in that you have a rivalry with the English national team? Whereas if you’re maybe more into rugby you’re used to supporting the Lions or if an athletics fan supporting Team GB? 🤷🏻‍♂️

[EH11]

On 01/12/2021 at 19:34, No Idle Talk said:

Ideologically, yes it should. With the shower of incompetent arseholes currently running it, no it shouldn't.

Same could be said at Westminster.

[Sarah O]

3 hours ago, Savage Vince said:

 

If we gain independence then please feel free to **** off somewhere else and annoy the **** out of those unfortunate souls. 😊

He's a good reason for soft No's to become hard Yessers. 

[XB52]

2 hours ago, Smithee said:

 

"Should Scotland be an independent country?"

 

This isn't the thread for ranting about the SNP

Every thread is for ranting about the SNP for some sad posters 

[Ulysses]

4 hours ago, Ked said:

Ok it's an anonymous poll.

I faked up there.

The discrepancies in this poll and the ones Uly cited though?

As compared to the result and other polling.

 

 

Can it be just football fans ?

That doesnt seem right.

 

It doesn't, but there was (and is) something going on.  The Yes-No split on JKB has always been more or less the same - and it's always been different by a consistent amount from both the referendum and opinion polls.  The same (more or less) applies to hibs.net.

 

It doesn't mean that football fans are some specialised exception to the rules of politics.  But it does mean something.

Edited December 6, 2021 by Ulysses

[Ulysses]

3 hours ago, i8hibsh said:

 

How tolerant.

 

It's OK.   No matter what anyone else says, I don't think you should leave Scotland.

[Ulysses]

1 hour ago, Smithee said:

 

Sorry, is this fact or just your opinion so not really applicable?

 

Whose opinion were you expecting when you asked him a direct question?

[JudyJudyJudy]

2 hours ago, Smithee said:

 

Aye but that was a generation ago, keep up.

 

Why should Scotland not have a government that represents it's electorate and has its best interests at heart? Why is it better to be clung on to the tail of an increasingly right lurching, brutal ******* of a government when we roundly dismissed that party?

When did 7 years become a " generation?

 

2 hours ago, Dazo said:

If that’s the biggest positive then nationalists are in for a lifetime of disappointment. A big percentage of people are doing well, getting a government they voted for won’t sway them. People generally look at things selfishly when voting and I’ve heard nothing to suggest things will be any better not only for those people or the country as a whole. 

You hit the nail on the head . Most people will vote for their own reasons. I wouldn't call it " selfish " reasons. Id call it more self interest. And why not ?

 

[Ulysses]

2 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

When did 7 years become a " generation?

 

1998, according to Westminster.

[JudyJudyJudy]

3 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

1998, according to Westminster.

Come on everyone knew what a " generation " meant when Sturgeon and  Salmond said it ? In fact they also used the phrase " once in a lifetime " I now realise they must have meant the average lifespan of a Glasgow citizen then. 

 

 

 

Indyref2: What does 'once in a generation' mean? - BBC News

[Unknown user]

8 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

Come on everyone knew what a " generation " meant when Sturgeon and  Salmond said it ? In fact they also used the phrase " once in a lifetime " I now realise they must have meant the average lifespan of a Glasgow citizen then. 

 

 

 

Indyref2: What does 'once in a generation' mean? - BBC News

 

Ah, everyone knew...

[Unknown user]

1 hour ago, Ulysses said:

 

Whose opinion were you expecting when you asked him a direct question?

 

I would have got away with it if it wasn't for you pesky kids

[JudyJudyJudy]

15 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

Ah, everyone knew...

Well most people with at least half a brain understood what a “ Generation” or “ lifetime “ meant . I could see the need for a new ref if the last result was close . It wasn't . In fact yes got hammered really . Think they only won 3 regions . 

[Unknown user]

5 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

Well most people with at least half a brain understood what a “ Generation” or “ lifetime “ meant . I could see the need for a new ref if the last result was close . It wasn't . In fact yes got hammered really . Think they only won 3 regions . 

 Hey I'm just going by what our glorious Westminster government says

[JudyJudyJudy]

4 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 Hey I'm just going by what our glorious Westminster government says

Ok . To be honest it’s actually one subject on this forum I have to zero passion about so I’m not getting into arguments about it really . Let’s just get Indy 2 on the road and let the dice fall where they may . 

[Alex Kintner]

Brexit made the whole “generation” comment a complete irrelevance. Brexit was something that nobody thought had any realistic chance of happening and it has massively changed the backdrop to the Indy debate. Add in the fact that Scotland voted convincingly to remain in the EU (more convincingly than it voted to remain in the UK!) and that the No campaign made promises about the EU which were subsequently broken and it makes all talk of “once in a generation” meaningless.

[JackLadd]

19 minutes ago, Alex Kintner said:

Brexit made the whole “generation” comment a complete irrelevance. Brexit was something that nobody thought had any realistic chance of happening and it has massively changed the backdrop to the Indy debate. Add in the fact that Scotland voted convincingly to remain in the EU (more convincingly than it voted to remain in the UK!) and that the No campaign made promises about the EU which were subsequently broken and it makes all talk of “once in a generation” meaningless.

 

There wasn't a but Brexit clause seven years ago Kinter. Fact is you LOST and snp have done a horrendous job governing Scotland since, so bad that they are a mile off the convergence criteria needed for Scotland to become a Brussels satellite. So you're selling a precarious start up Scotland on a new shortbread currency that will crash on day one of trading with an 'aye, but wull be oan the euro soon likesay' promise to the flag shagging radges. 

[Ulysses]

5 hours ago, i8hibsh said:

I will always rant

 

True, but all the same. 

[Ulysses]

2 hours ago, JamesM48 said:

Come on everyone knew what a " generation " meant when Sturgeon and  Salmond said it ? In fact they also used the phrase " once in a lifetime " I now realise they must have meant the average lifespan of a Glasgow citizen then. 

 

 

 

Indyref2: What does 'once in a generation' mean? - BBC News

 

You asked a question.  I gave you the answer.  Not an answer, but the answer.  If 7 years is a long enough interval for the population of NI to be given an opportunity to change its constitutional status, why should the population of Scotland be treated less favourably on the say-so of a few Westminster Cabinet members?  Whatever else it is, it sure as hell ain't democracy.

[Ulysses]

2 hours ago, Smithee said:

 

I would have got away with it if it wasn't for you pesky kids

 

[Japan Jambo]

3 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

It doesn't, but there was (and is) something going on.  The Yes-No split on JKB has always been more or less the same - and it's always been different by a consistent amount from both the referendum and opinion polls.  The same (more or less) applies to hibs.net.

 

It doesn't mean that football fans are some specialised exception to the rules of politics.  But it does mean something.

 

men are disproportionately represented here. pretty sure 'no' votes were stronger among women. also ABC1's more likely to vote 'no'.

[Ulysses]

17 minutes ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

men are disproportionately represented here. pretty sure 'no' votes were stronger among women. also ABC1's more likely to vote 'no'.

 

Yep, men are disproportionately represented here, as they would also be on hibs.net.  That said, the few bits and pieces of polling information I can find in the run-up to the vote suggests that the Yes majority among men was a lot narrower than the polls on here would suggest (in the region of 54-46).  It may also be (thinking out loud) that ABC1s are also underrepresented, and possibly older voters as well.