Should Scotland be an independent country?

[ƒιѕнρℓαρѕ]

On 02/12/2021 at 17:37, AlphonseCapone said:

 

Unlike last time though I won't be getting invested in it on an emotional level or engaging in debates about it. It'll be what it'll be, and that's that. 

 

Yeah same here

 

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

Mods CANT THIS  Thread be merged with " the rise and fall of the snp" its almost a carbon copy of it exactly the same arguments for and against. 

 

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

There is zero chance of Scotland voting Yes to Independence. IMO  Push comes to shove itll be a big no. Even more than the last time. Bookmark this please  

[JackLadd]

12 hours ago, JimmyCant said:

Greece crashed because successive Greek governments overcooked the welfare state giving ridiculous welfare benefits they couldn’t pay for, such as stupidly early retirement and government funded extra pay at year end and Easter. Their low taxation couldn’t pay for it and their international credit ran out after 20 years of this stupidity. Scotland would never go down that road. 
 

Scotland has a high paper deficit largely because we are servicing debt incurred by the UK government for spending which we had no say in and which was of no benefit to Scotland. For example, we’ll be paying for HS2 which has no benefit to Scotland and in fact is detrimental to Scotland.

 

How can you be serious with that post when Sturgeon is running a 22% deficit in no small part due to her bribe and lie freebies which Greece was at least paying for itself until the crash? 🤔 You krankies live in cloud cuckoo land. And her 22.4% deficit is net fiscal deficit and not gross. 24% net when North Sea is excluded. She is a tragedy worse than any performed in ancient Athens or current.

[ƒιѕнρℓαρѕ]

4 minutes ago, JackLadd said:

 

How can you be serious with that post when Sturgeon is running a 22% deficit in no small part due to her bribe and lie freebies which Greece was at least paying for itself until the crash? 🤔 You krankies live in cloud cuckoo land. And her 22.4% deficit is net fiscal deficit and not gross. 24% net when North Sea is excluded. She is a tragedy worse than any performed in ancient Athens or current.

 

Lol pretendy defecits time

[ƒιѕнρℓαρѕ]

51 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

Mods CANT THIS  Thread be merged with " the rise and fall of the snp" its almost a carbon copy of it exactly the same arguments for and against. 

 

 

 

Why should Scotland not be independent?

[JackLadd]

4 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

Why should Scotland not be independent?

 

Because I say thee nay fool! 😡

[Alex Kintner]

1 hour ago, JamesM48 said:

There is zero chance of Scotland voting Yes to Independence. IMO  Push comes to shove itll be a big no. Even more than the last time. Bookmark this please  

 

[NANOJAMBO]

1 hour ago, JamesM48 said:

Mods CANT THIS  Thread be merged with " the rise and fall of the snp" its almost a carbon copy of it exactly the same arguments for and against. 

 

 

Maybe you and the usual supects could sod off to the SNP bashing thread where you can all get a collective semi.

 

Cheers. 

[NANOJAMBO]

1 hour ago, JamesM48 said:

There is zero chance of Scotland voting Yes to Independence. IMO  Push comes to shove itll be a big no. Even more than the last time. Bookmark this please  

No, James.

There is a chance. Maybe not a great one , right now , but a chance noentheless. 

That's because, whether you like it or not, Scotland keeps on voting SNP.

 

As for your childish "bookmark" patter and chat addressed to the Mods - why not stay on topic or just bash yourself senseless on the SNP thread and leave this to the grown ups.

 

 

 

[Alex Kintner]

3 minutes ago, NANOJAMBO said:

No, James.

There is a chance. Maybe not a great one , right now , but a chance noentheless. 

That's because, whether you like it or not, Scotland keeps on voting SNP.

 

As for your childish "bookmark" patter and chat addressed to the Mods - why not stay on topic or just bash yourself senseless on the SNP thread and leave this to the grown ups.

 

 

 

I think he’s being sarcastic with the bookmark thing given the history. At least I hope he’s being sarcastic!

[NANOJAMBO]

1 minute ago, Alex Kintner said:

I think he’s being sarcastic with the bookmark thing given the history. At least I hope he’s being sarcastic!

Not really bothered, just fed up with his chat.

I thought he and the rest of them might stay on the SNP bash-off while the rest of us could have an adult conversation.

No doubt he'll be back with a witty retort and a gif of some description soon. 

[ƒιѕнρℓαρѕ]

3 hours ago, JamesM48 said:

Mods CANT THIS  Thread be merged with " the rise and fall of the snp" its almost a carbon copy of it exactly the same arguments for and against. 

 

 

 

Feel free not to read it 🤷‍♂️

 

At the end of the day though, the SNP and independence aren't the same thing.

 

Why do you think Scotland shouldn't be independent?

[JudyJudyJudy]

12 hours ago, Smithee said:

 

Why should Scotland not be independent?

 

11 hours ago, Alex Kintner said:

 

 

11 hours ago, Alex Kintner said:

I think he’s being sarcastic with the bookmark thing given the history. At least I hope he’s being sarcastic!

 

10 hours ago, Smithee said:

 

Feel free not to read it 🤷‍♂️

 

At the end of the day though, the SNP and independence aren't the same thing.

 

Why do you think Scotland shouldn't be independent?

I was half pissed when i wrote that. Well thats my excuse. There is a difference between SNP and Independence issue. 

 

I want an Independent Scotland but I do worry whether we can financially afford it and if we cant what the impact would be on our future generations . I have no problem with the principle of it at all . Every country should be Independent .

 

[scott herbertson]

30 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

 

 

 

I was half pissed when i wrote that. Well thats my excuse. There is a difference between SNP and Independence issue. 

 

I want an Independent Scotland but I do worry whether we can financially afford it and if we cant what the impact would be on our future generations . I have no problem with the principle of it at all . Every country should be Independent .

 

 

 

How does Ireland manage it financially?

[JudyJudyJudy]

 

Edited December 3, 2021 by JamesM48

[JudyJudyJudy]

2 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

 

wrong thread 

[jack D and coke]

[ƒιѕнρℓαρѕ]

2 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

 

[jack D and coke]

1 minute ago, Smithee said:

 

I’ve often thought that like everything else that happens in Scotland England will decide when we get independence. 
I think Englands ruling classes fight tooth and nail to stop us doing it because the English people might see us shedding the hideous royal family and lords etc and think oh we’d like a bit of that and then those toffs are all screwed. No more lords and ladies and queens and princes and titles and all that other shite we have to tolerate here. 

[Japan Jambo]

2 hours ago, scott herbertson said:

 

 

How does Ireland manage it financially?

 

International tax haven 

[Nucky Thompson]

58 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

I’ve often thought that like everything else that happens in Scotland England will decide when we get independence. 
I think Englands ruling classes fight tooth and nail to stop us doing it because the English people might see us shedding the hideous royal family and lords etc and think oh we’d like a bit of that and then those toffs are all screwed. No more lords and ladies and queens and princes and titles and all that other shite we have to tolerate here. 

You do know that through the ages Scotland had it's own Kings, Queens and lords

[NANOJAMBO]

1 hour ago, jack D and coke said:

Superb. Crack on lads. 

[scott herbertson]

8 minutes ago, Nucky Thompson said:

You do know that through the ages Scotland had it's own Kings, Queens and lords

 

So did nearly every one of the world's republics. Most of them were overthrown because they were a corrupt clique

[rudi must stay]

No it shouldn't 

[jack D and coke]

21 minutes ago, Nucky Thompson said:

You do know that through the ages Scotland had it's own Kings, Queens and lords

Eh…obviously man lol.  Time for the bin that pish though. 

[Ulysses]

2 hours ago, scott herbertson said:

 

 

How does Ireland manage it financially?

 

The same as everyone else.  All countries that have a reasonably high average income and standard of living can and do have public services and sound fiscal policies.  Each country does that a little differently to the next, but it's not exactly uncommon.  Because Ireland's domestic economic base was stunted and hollowed out by the colonial power, we had to develop particular strategies to overcome that - but ironically our lack of industrial development became an advantage for us in devising those strategies.  An independent Scotland would have different advantages and different challenges, but the fundamental rules of the game would be the same, and Scotland would be in no better or no worse a position than any other small developed country.

[scott herbertson]

Just now, Ulysses said:

 

The same as everyone else.  All countries that have a reasonably high average income and standard of living can and do have public services and sound fiscal policies.  Each country does that a little differently to the next, but it's not exactly uncommon.  Because Ireland's domestic economic base was stunted and hollowed out by the colonial power, we had to develop particular strategies to overcome that - but ironically our lack of industrial development became an advantage for us in devising those strategies.  An independent Scotland would have different advantages and different challenges, but the fundamental rules of the game would be the same, and Scotland would be in no better or no worse a position than any other small developed country.

 

 

Agreed - let's hope that happens and we try to shape the economic and social development of the country in a progressive way and try to take a positive part in world affairs without feeling the need to behave like a petulant ex-colonial empire (not thinking of any country in particular there!)

[Nucky Thompson]

2 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Eh…obviously man lol.  Time for the bin that pish though. 

Cool  

The union of the crowns is a different discussion altogether 

[manaliveits105]

2 hours ago, jack D and coke said:

If they take Sturgeon Harvie et al 

Im in 

[jack D and coke]

1 minute ago, manaliveits105 said:

If they take Sturgeon Harvie et al 

Im in 

They can go for me an all trust me😁

[Nucky Thompson]

1 hour ago, jack D and coke said:

Eh…obviously man lol.  Time for the bin that pish though. 

I've just had a look and there are over 60 dukes, earls and marquesses titles in Scotland.

 

I doubt that they would disappear in an independent Scotland 

[The Old Tolbooth]

Scotland and England are heading in two very different directions, and even though we share a border, we've never been further apart, we should be independent 100%. 

[jack D and coke]

36 minutes ago, Nucky Thompson said:

I've just had a look and there are over 60 dukes, earls and marquesses titles in Scotland.

 

I doubt that they would disappear in an independent Scotland 

Well one thing at a time pal. Indy first then we can get to work on these ***** 😁

[A Boy Named Crow]

8 hours ago, jack D and coke said:

"The union was ended after 315 years, by mutual consent".

 

Bloody brilliant,  not a shot fired, none of this successor state pish, just a division of net assets and off we go on our separate ways. Best solution all round!

 

[JimKongUno]

I don't really see how it would benefit the country of the ordinary people in any way to try and have a crack at being independent in the middle of the biggest shitstorm any of us have ever seen. Even before things went tits up I wasn't keen on it but now with all that's going on with covid, China, rising prices, Putin playing funny buggers with the gas supply.. Surely there's enough to keep any government busy without having to try and start up a new independent country and all the hassle that will create among it all. Bonkers 

[Hasselhoff]

5 minutes ago, JimKongUno said:

I don't really see how it would benefit the country of the ordinary people in any way to try and have a crack at being independent in the middle of the biggest shitstorm any of us have ever seen. Even before things went tits up I wasn't keen on it but now with all that's going on with covid, China, rising prices, Putin playing funny buggers with the gas supply.. Surely there's enough to keep any government busy without having to try and start up a new independent country and all the hassle that will create among it all. Bonkers 

 
Agreed, especially when if there is a vote for independence, it could be 50.01% that gets it over the line. 

 

To make such a monumental change work, you need everyone to be facing in the same direction, or at least a vast majority. Just need to look at Brexit to see how the losers of the vote just obstructed to impede progress. Same will happen here if it is 51/49 or so. 

[kila]

Yes and it’s only a matter of time.

 

[Roxy Hearts]

2 hours ago, JimKongUno said:

I don't really see how it would benefit the country of the ordinary people in any way to try and have a crack at being independent in the middle of the biggest shitstorm any of us have ever seen. Even before things went tits up I wasn't keen on it but now with all that's going on with covid, China, rising prices, Putin playing funny buggers with the gas supply.. Surely there's enough to keep any government busy without having to try and start up a new independent country and all the hassle that will create among it all. Bonkers 

Scotland is an ancient nation, it's not going to be a new country! Most of it's administration and governing ourselves also making our own decisions. I think we need independence even more now as can't trust Westminster! A new relationship is required too.

[Nucky Thompson]

3 hours ago, Hasselhoff said:

 
Agreed, especially when if there is a vote for independence, it could be 50.01% that gets it over the line. 

 

To make such a monumental change work, you need everyone to be facing in the same direction, or at least a vast majority. Just need to look at Brexit to see how the losers of the vote just obstructed to impede progress. Same will happen here if it is 51/49 or so. 

I agree.

If there was to be another vote, it should be 60% or above to get it through

[Japan Jambo]

41 minutes ago, Nucky Thompson said:

I agree.

If there was to be another vote, it should be 60% or above to get it through

 

🤣

[Captain Sausage]

I was a no in 2014. 
 

I’ve since moved to England and have no say in Scotland’s future but it would personally be great if Scotland went independent. 
 

I’d not be at risk of the potential financial shortfall, and if it worked out okay, we could saunter back north. 
 

And I’d get two passports and hopefully Scotland would rejoin the EU so Id get my Shenghen rights back. 

[Alex Kintner]

1 hour ago, Nucky Thompson said:

I agree.

If there was to be another vote, it should be 60% or above to get it through

Imagine the unrest and carnage if the result was Yes 59%, No 41%. 😳

[XB52]

In any referendum it will be 50%+1 that will be enough to win it. Of course it will be better if Yes has 60/70/80% to settle things (and if No gets the same resounding victory it would settle also) 

[jack D and coke]

2 hours ago, Nucky Thompson said:

I agree.

If there was to be another vote, it should be 60% or above to get it through

The last was one was 55-45 and people called that decisive. It’s got to be over 60% for yes though? 
Fwiw I’m not really disagreeing with you I’d like it to be proper decisive so the country could move on but thems the rules. They can’t be moving goalposts now. 

[Dunks]

5 hours ago, Nucky Thompson said:

I agree.

If there was to be another vote, it should be 60% or above to get it through

 

Get what through? Do you mean must be 60% for rither outcome? So we keep asking until one of the options gets 60%?

[JudyJudyJudy]

Surely it should just be a majority. Why the arbitrary 60% why not 70% ? etc 

[Finbar Saunders]

Would love Scotland to get indy but what worries me is what happened in George Square after the last vote. West of Scotland could easily turn us into some far off suburb of Belfast.

[dougal]

9 hours ago, Captain Sausage said:

I was a no in 2014. 
 

I’ve since moved to England and have no say in Scotland’s future but it would personally be great if Scotland went independent. 
 

I’d not be at risk of the potential financial shortfall, and if it worked out okay, we could saunter back north. 
 

And I’d get two passports and hopefully Scotland would rejoin the EU so Id get my Shenghen rights back. 

 

See if I didn't live in Scotland I'd probably say yeah go for independence, wouldn't really affect me if it happened.  But I'm of the belief that it would be a disaster financially for us. We already pay more tax up here and I could only see that increasing if we became independent.

 

Maybe if we have another independence referendum we should make it a public vote. If the country votes to become independent and it turns out that we don't have enough money and have to drastically increase taxes then the people who voted for independence should be the ones who are taxed more. 😉 

[A Boy Named Crow]

5 hours ago, dougal said:

 

See if I didn't live in Scotland I'd probably say yeah go for independence, wouldn't really affect me if it happened.  But I'm of the belief that it would be a disaster financially for us. We already pay more tax up here and I could only see that increasing if we became independent.

 

Maybe if we have another independence referendum we should make it a public vote. If the country votes to become independent and it turns out that we don't have enough money and have to drastically increase taxes then the people who voted for independence should be the ones who are taxed more. 😉 

You raise an interesting point,  would it go both ways? People who vote no get none of the benefits of Scotland being able to take full advantage of its relatively well educated population, established industries, huge potential to drive the green energy revolution, fantastic geographical location etc?

 

Edited December 5, 2021 by A Boy Named Crow