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Should Scotland be an independent country?


Alex Kintner

Should Scotland be an independent country?  

505 members have voted

  1. 1. Should Scotland be an independent country?

    • Yes
      313
    • No
      166
    • Don’t know/ Abstain/ Spoil ballot
      26


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3 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

It’s something I’m not sure about tbh. If I lived in Ireland or NI for example and they had a vote to unify the two I just wouldn’t vote in it. I’d have no skin in that game and out of courtesy and respect would not vote. 
These things are hugely emotional like the indyref here and people not from the said countries shouldn’t get involved. I fail to see how I could ever truly understand the feeling in an Irish re-unification. 
IMO that is. 

I think you’d have to ask yourself

 

1. what is the impact on me

2. what is the impact on the country 

 

it’s caring enough about either impact or having ‘skin in the game’ that makes you vote

 

I've never met anyone who didn’t have a strong opinion one way or the other on independence. No one ever shrugs their shoulders and says ‘couldn’t give a toss one way or the other’ and that includes non natives.( most of whom favour independence In my experience, except English people of course)

 

 

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jack D and coke
21 minutes ago, JimmyCant said:

I think you’d have to ask yourself

 

1. what is the impact on me

2. what is the impact on the country 

 

it’s caring enough about either impact or having ‘skin in the game’ that makes you vote

 

I've never met anyone who didn’t have a strong opinion one way or the other on independence. No one ever shrugs their shoulders and says ‘couldn’t give a toss one way or the other’ and that includes non natives.( most of whom favour independence In my experience, except English people of course)

 

 

I’d still feel wrong voting in it. I’d feel like I should keep my nose out of it. Again imo. 
I suppose each to their own though bud. 

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Pasquale for King
12 minutes ago, Herbert said:

Yes and sturgeon can piss off. 

She’s more likely to piss off if Scotland becomes independent. 
Could you list the politicians who are viewed as more competent than her at this present time?

Im not an SNP fan btw. 

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Ainsley Harriott
1 hour ago, JimmyCant said:

You mean a Labour government answerable to Westminster or a Tory Government answerable to Westminster, just like the old days ?

Our public services functioned a lot better in them days. Education backwards, healthcare backwards, council services cut. Even the most blinded would struggle to argue the SNP have been a success

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Byyy The Light
13 hours ago, Smithee said:

 

I'd personally be up for a modified union, one where we have a customs union etc with the rest of the UK, but we decide our own government.

 

 

 

I'd definitely be up for something along these lines too.  Even some sort of federalism type arrangement.  They knew what they were doing with the devo max offer at the last minute in 2014 that surprise surprise vanished up it's own bahookie as quickly as it appeared.

 

 

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1 hour ago, JimmyCant said:

I think you’d have to ask yourself

 

1. what is the impact on me

2. what is the impact on the country 

 

it’s caring enough about either impact or having ‘skin in the game’ that makes you vote

 

I've never met anyone who didn’t have a strong opinion one way or the other on independence. No one ever shrugs their shoulders and says ‘couldn’t give a toss one way or the other’ and that includes non natives.( most of whom favour independence In my experience, except English people of course)

 

 

 

Quite a few English folk I know would be quite happy if Scotland was independent so I'm not so sure it's fair to generalise. The strategy of constantly banging on about wanting away has cut through down here to a degree.

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52 minutes ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

Our public services functioned a lot better in them days. Education backwards, healthcare backwards, council services cut. Even the most blinded would struggle to argue the SNP have been a success


I don’t have the knowledge to speak with any authority on the other aspects but I can guarantee you that Educational performance is higher under the SNP then it ever was with Labour in charge at Holyrood👍🏻
 

What are you basing your claims upon?

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1 hour ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

Our public services functioned a lot better in them days. Education backwards, healthcare backwards, council services cut. Even the most blinded would struggle to argue the SNP have been a success

Labour, Tories and Libs have put out manifestos at every Scottish election and they get rejected in favour of a very popular SNP.

 

I think voters know who has our best interests at heart whilst occasionally failing just like most parties in every country in the world.

 

Current polls have the SNP stretching their lead. Other parties apart from the Greens appear to be a shambles and I think they are. No policies dedicated to Scotland.

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2 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

Labour, Tories and Libs have put out manifestos at every Scottish election and they get rejected in favour of a very popular SNP.

 

I think voters know who has our best interests at heart whilst occasionally failing just like most parties in every country in the world.

 

Current polls have the SNP stretching their lead. Other parties apart from the Greens appear to be a shambles and I think they are. No policies dedicated to Scotland.


The phrase best poo in the potty springs to mind, nowt to gloat about really. 

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Ainsley Harriott
14 minutes ago, Alex Kintner said:


I don’t have the knowledge to speak with any authority on the other aspects but I can guarantee you that Educational performance is higher under the SNP then it ever was with Labour in charge at Holyrood👍🏻
 

What are you basing your claims upon?

Assure me aye? What you have just said is a complete lie the Scottish School system 20 years ago was the best the UK by some distance. We now sit behind England for reading and have fallen down the PISA rankings in Europe.

 

See this is where nationalism is ugly it preys on the ignorent believing a fantasy to suit their own agenda. 

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1 minute ago, Dazo said:


The phrase best poo in the potty springs to mind, nowt to gloat about really. 

 

Why do you think Scotland shouldn't be independent?

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4 minutes ago, Dazo said:


The phrase best poo in the potty springs to mind, nowt to gloat about really. 

Not gloating just facts. Who would you prefer?

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5 minutes ago, Dazo said:


The phrase best poo in the potty springs to mind, nowt to gloat about really. 

Not gloating just facts. Who would you prefer?

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2 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

Why do you think Scotland shouldn't be independent?


I don’t think shouldn’t is the correct word to be honest. Regardless the simplest one sentence answer is I believe independent Scotland would be too left wing for my liking.  

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6 minutes ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

Assure me aye? What you have just said is a complete lie the Scottish School system 20 years ago was the best the UK by some distance. We now sit behind England for reading and have fallen down the PISA rankings in Europe.

 

See this is where nationalism is ugly it preys on the ignorent believing a fantasy to suit their own agenda. 


Can you provide the statistics you refer to? I can provide you with the comparable exam results if you like?

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7 hours ago, Hasselhoff said:


 

The reason I’m more a No now than ever is the sheer volume of misinformation coming from the nationalists. They will stop at nothing to get their dream and will say anything even if not in the slightest bit true, e.g
 

 

”We cannot borrow and stay within our budget so don’t have a deficit” - we spend a lot more than we raise in taxes, over £2k per person. That vanishes in Indy so they should admit that there would need to be cuts

 

if it happens, it happens but prepare for massive capital flight and for brain drain too. The average to well-off are not going to want to get taxed to the hilt just for a flag. Northern England will become very popular at that point!

 


 


I actually don’t mind if people have an emotional wanting for Independence as that is understandable. But those people don’t need to be won over to make it a reality. 
 

Your second paragraph is a bit misleading as Scotland doesn’t have devolved powers on income tax etc. 

 

The massive brain drain and capital flight in my opinion is scaremongering. Scotland and it’s resources are more than capable of making it stand on its own two feet. 
 

 

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Ainsley Harriott
1 minute ago, Alex Kintner said:


Can you provide the statistics you refer to? I can provide you with the comparable exam results if you like?

PISAresultsScotland2015.png.6530337860cceaabf95791b3fa936fe5.png

pisa_scores.png

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4 minutes ago, Dazo said:


I don’t think shouldn’t is the correct word to be honest. Regardless the simplest one sentence answer is I believe independent Scotland would be too left wing for my liking.  

 

So no good reason Scotland couldn't or shouldn't be independent then

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1 hour ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

Our public services functioned a lot better in them days. Education backwards, healthcare backwards, council services cut. Even the most blinded would struggle to argue the SNP have been a success

Just about all down to revenue and our inability as a country to borrow money

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1 minute ago, Smithee said:

 

So no good reason Scotland couldn't or shouldn't be independent then


That’s why I said it was the wrong word, it’s a loaded question. Simply there is no reason why Scotland couldn’t be independent. However do we want to be independent is different and a personal choice. 

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1 hour ago, jack D and coke said:

I’d still feel wrong voting in it. I’d feel like I should keep my nose out of it. Again imo. 
I suppose each to their own though bud. 

Indeed. Voting in an Irish unification election. Big responsibility if your not actually Irish. It’ll happen one day though. The population demographic will ensure that

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5 minutes ago, Dazo said:


That’s why I said it was the wrong word, it’s a loaded question. Simply there is no reason why Scotland couldn’t be independent. However do we want to be independent is different and a personal choice. 

 

Well obviously.

 

And the fact that we're pretty much drawing a blank on why Scotland couldn't or shouldn't be independent is pretty telling.

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4 hours ago, i8hibsh said:

 

 

Salmond's deep infatuation with Norway was nothing short of creepy.

 

I was in Oslo a few years back and being the sociable person I am, I chewed the fat in many a bar with many a local.  They are absolutely dumbfounded with the SNPs love in with them and why they have Norway on such a high pedestal.  The only people constantly signing it's praises are those who are not Norwegian.

 

It is a very fine country but it should be no 'benchmark' for others.  Norway has the issues most countries face and it's taxation system is truly unfair to most. 

 

A small point though, I know it is just a small matter but Norway never inherited up to 300 billion debt when they started - we would be.  Oh and another small point....Norway had the sunny days of oil - those sunny days are long gone.

 

Scotland will never be Norway, we are Scotland.  We have too much public sector workers to start a fresh, riddled with debt.  We have too much high crime rates (probably England's fault) and too many people are workshy in this country.


This post has a catalogue of errors. 
 

Norwegians enjoy a very high standard of living. This oil sunny days are over is nonsense. They have a oil fund worth just shy of a trillion in Sterling valuation making it one of the largest financial funds in the world. They state organised the oil meaning every Norwegian benefits from this. The UK decided to sell it off to private companies for a measly return. 
 

Scotland public sector workforce is 21%. 
 

The highest crime rates in the UK are in England. 
 

 

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1 hour ago, Pasquale for King said:

She’s more likely to piss off if Scotland becomes independent. 
Could you list the politicians who are viewed as more competent than her at this present time?

Im not an SNP fan btw. 

 

 

Alex salmond.

 

 

She's drunk on power, she's going to **** the country up. She's spending money we don't have. We wasted millions on that cop summit just so she could get a few selfies and seem relivent. Lucky peado Joe gave us a begging bowl.

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3 minutes ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

PISAresultsScotland2015.png.6530337860cceaabf95791b3fa936fe5.png

pisa_scores.png


Three key things to note about PISA which make it pretty pointless as an indicator:

 

1. It is a recognised that pupil effort levels on PISA tests can vary greatly due to the fact the randomly selected pupils do not actually receive results of how they’ve done. 
 

2. The degree of error within PISA stats is so significant that it is impossible to tell if any falls or rises relate to an actual fall or rise in attainment or due to error.

 

3. PISA doesn’t measure pupil’s knowledge of or ability to use the curriculum they’ve been learning about. It’s focused on real world problem solving challenges.

 

Your first table is also statistically invalid. NFER has stated that it isn’t possible to make accurate comparisons with recent data and data prior to 2006 which is when Labour left Holyrood.


PISA is a big steaming pile of poo and the people I work with treat it as such. But don’t just take my word for it:

 

NFER (who actually administer the tests): “PISA provides a snapshot of performance but scores are affected by the cumulative impact of a wide range of educational and other factors. It provides one useful measure of the health of an education system but one which should be considered alongside a range of other evidence.

 

UCL Institute of Education: “PISA is not a good measure of school system quality”


Now how about exam results…

 

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, i8hibsh said:

 

 

Is any country in the world really independent? By definition the answer is no. Scotland certainly would not be independent if we left the UK. 

 

What all this is, is to seperate from the UK, it has nothing to do with independence. Scotland would be like every other country - fully DEPENDENT.

 

The SNP want to drag us into Brussels rule. You couldn't make this shit up. Sturgeon is one of the biggest unionists on the planet. A globalist who is as far from being a 'nationalist' as possible.

 

 

You're right, Countries rely on each other for trade, defence etc... That's just the nature of the beast. 

 

However, on a domestic level, I want the Government that Scotland votes for, not the Government England votes for. Nor should we suffer the consequences of policies that they voted for, that is undemocratic.

 

Secondly, it is an opportunity to breakaway from the Westminster establishment, a house of Lords and a Monarchy. 

 

As for your final point about the EU. If Scotland were to become Independent from the UK, I'd expect a Referendum on EU membership rather than being forced to join the EU as a consequence of Independence. 

 

It's all about Democracy for me. 

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19 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

Well obviously.

 

And the fact that we're pretty much drawing a blank on why Scotland couldn't or shouldn't be independent is pretty telling.


Are you purposely being stupid ? I’ve said there isn’t a reason Scotland couldn’t be independent. Why it shouldn’t be is personal and mines is mainly I don’t want to live in a left wing back water, obviously 🙄

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Ainsley Harriott
20 minutes ago, Alex Kintner said:


Three key things to note about PISA which make it pretty pointless as an indicator:

 

1. It is a recognised that pupil effort levels on PISA tests can vary greatly due to the fact the randomly selected pupils do not actually receive results of how they’ve done. 
 

2. The degree of error within PISA stats is so significant that it is impossible to tell if any falls or rises relate to an actual fall or rise in attainment or due to error.

 

3. PISA doesn’t measure pupil’s knowledge of or ability to use the curriculum they’ve been learning about. It’s focused on real world problem solving challenges.

 

Your first table is also statistically invalid. NFER has stated that it isn’t possible to make accurate comparisons with recent data and data prior to 2006 which is when Labour left Holyrood.


PISA is a big steaming pile of poo and the people I work with treat it as such. But don’t just take my word for it:

 

NFER (who actually administer the tests): “PISA provides a snapshot of performance but scores are affected by the cumulative impact of a wide range of educational and other factors. It provides one useful measure of the health of an education system but one which should be considered alongside a range of other evidence.

 

UCL Institute of Education: “PISA is not a good measure of school system quality”


Now how about exam results…

 

 

 

 

Ok PISA is a lot of rubbish. Would you like to show me your stats that back up education having improved under the SNP? I would be really interested to read them

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3 minutes ago, Dazo said:


Are you purposely being stupid ? I’ve said there isn’t a reason Scotland couldn’t be independent. Why it shouldn’t be is personal and mines is mainly I don’t want to live in a left wing back water, obviously 🙄

 

That's not very nice Dazo, I'm inviting you to make a compelling argument. You've spent plenty of time attacking others' beliefs, but so precious about your own?

 

Anyway you're saying you don't want an independent Scotland because you don't want the democratic voice of Scotland to be heard, it's too lefty for you, right?

Deary me.

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Just now, Ainsley Harriott said:

Ok PISA is a lot of rubbish. Would you like to show me your stats that back up education having improved under the SNP? I would be really interested to read them


Off the top of my head (and I can check later when I have more time) Higher pass rates were about 70% under Scottish Labour and were about 75% pre-Covid.

 

It’s also worth pointing out that it’s just as well the PISA is unreliable or what your first table would show is a pretty horrendous drop during Labour’s time at Holyrood which was only stabilised once SNP came into power. 😂

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Pasquale for King
31 minutes ago, Herbert said:

 

 

Alex salmond.

 

 

She's drunk on power, she's going to **** the country up. She's spending money we don't have. We wasted millions on that cop summit just so she could get a few selfies and seem relivent. Lucky peado Joe gave us a begging bowl.

You think the tories about anyone in Scotland?
Go and do some research ffs. 
She can’t spend a penny we don’t have as we can’t borrow. 
COP26 was arranged by the U.K. government had if we had to pay that’s on them, it was good for tourism etc. 
Paedo Joe dreary me, I think it was Trump and Clinton that were pals with these two. 

97D09B39-7D61-44C3-8614-FC56CB641CAD.jpeg

Edited by Pasquale for King
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26 minutes ago, Des Lynam said:


This post has a catalogue of errors. 
 

Norwegians enjoy a very high standard of living. This oil sunny days are over is nonsense. They have a oil fund worth just shy of a trillion in Sterling valuation making it one of the largest financial funds in the world. They state organised the oil meaning every Norwegian benefits from this. The UK decided to sell it off to private companies for a measly return. 
 

Scotland public sector workforce is 21%. 
 

The highest crime rates in the UK are in England. 
 

Scotland public sector workforce is 21% 

 

Norwegians enjoy a very high standard of living - Did I say they never?

 

This oil sunny days are over is nonsense - oil is nowhere near it was 10 years ago as a commodity. Last year alone would have seen an independent Scotland crumble as we would not have built up a financial reserve

 

Norway started saving decades ago.  Scotland would start now with 300 billion pounds debt.  Seriously what part of this do you struggle to understand?

 

Scotland public sector workforce is 21% - you don't think this is high?  USA is 13%, Spain 16%, South Korea 10%, New Zealand 11%, Japan 7%, Ireland 17% and Italy 16% to compare just a few.  21% is socialist territory.

 

The highest crime rates in the UK are in England.  - pretty much London 

 

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31 minutes ago, i8hibsh said:

 

Norwegians enjoy a very high standard of living - Did I say they never?

 

This oil sunny days are over is nonsense - oil is nowhere near it was 10 years ago as a commodity. Last year alone would have seen an independent Scotland crumble as we would not have built up a financial reserve

 

Norway started saving decades ago.  Scotland would start now with 300 billion pounds debt.  Seriously what part of this do you struggle to understand?

 

Scotland public sector workforce is 21% - you don't think this is high?  USA is 13%, Spain 16%, South Korea 10%, New Zealand 11%, Japan 7%, Ireland 17% and Italy 16% to compare just a few.  21% is socialist territory.

 

The highest crime rates in the UK are in England.  - pretty much London 

 

 

wisnae me, a big boy did it and ran away...

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41 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

That's not very nice Dazo, I'm inviting you to make a compelling argument. You've spent plenty of time attacking others' beliefs, but so precious about your own?

 

Anyway you're saying you don't want an independent Scotland because you don't want the democratic voice of Scotland to be heard, it's too lefty for you, right?

Deary me.


Again you’re not listening. I’ve not said or done anything you’ve mentioned there. For the hard of hearing, Scotland can be independent. I’m not arguing otherwise. I can’t stop Scotland’s democratic voice I can only vote according to mine. Where the land lays after that is completely out with my control. In my opinion it will be left wing and that isn’t for me, obviously 🙄 

 

You seem unaccepting of that or any other view and to be honest I’m not surprised giving your bitterness towards other people. 
 

Anyway instead of going round in circles I’ll leave you to wallow. 👍

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1 minute ago, Dazo said:


Again you’re not listening. I’ve not said or done anything you’ve mentioned there. For the hard of hearing, Scotland can be independent. I’m not arguing otherwise. I can’t stop Scotland’s democratic voice I can only vote according to mine. Where the land lays after that is completely out with my control. In my opinion it will be left wing and that isn’t for me, obviously 🙄 

 

You seem unaccepting of that or any other view and to be honest I’m not surprised giving your bitterness towards other people. 
 

Anyway instead of going round in circles I’ll leave you to wallow. 👍

 

I'm not unaccepting at all, we all have a vote.

 

Suppressing our democratic voice to keep the Westminster right in charge is a noble cause to your mind I'm sure, but there's no good reason Scotland couldn't or shouldn't be independent.

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51 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

You think the tories about anyone in Scotland?
Go and do some research ffs. 
She can’t spend a penny we don’t have as we can’t borrow. 
COP26 was arranged by the U.K. government had if we had to pay that’s on them, it was good for tourism etc. 
Paedo Joe dreary me, I think it was Trump and Clinton that were pals with these two. 

97D09B39-7D61-44C3-8614-FC56CB641CAD.jpeg

 

 

I don't like the tories either. They are happy to take from the lowest earners. 

Trump was pals with epstein? He was calling him out years before everything came to light and banned him from his clubs.

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1 hour ago, i8hibsh said:

 

Norwegians enjoy a very high standard of living - Did I say they never?

 

This oil sunny days are over is nonsense - oil is nowhere near it was 10 years ago as a commodity. Last year alone would have seen an independent Scotland crumble as we would not have built up a financial reserve

 

Norway started saving decades ago.  Scotland would start now with 300 billion pounds debt.  Seriously what part of this do you struggle to understand?

 

Scotland public sector workforce is 21% - you don't think this is high?  USA is 13%, Spain 16%, South Korea 10%, New Zealand 11%, Japan 7%, Ireland 17% and Italy 16% to compare just a few.  21% is socialist territory.

 

The highest crime rates in the UK are in England.  - pretty much London 

 


The highest crime rates are in West Yorkshire and the North East per capita. 
 

The 300 billion or thereabouts would be serviced as a legacy debt and wouldn’t be demanded immediately. Out with Scotland by your calculations the rest of the UK has debts over a trillion pounds. 
 

Norway created a state owned fund for oil something the UK government ****ed up massively. 
 

 

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Pasquale for King
27 minutes ago, Herbert said:

 

 

I don't like the tories either. They are happy to take from the lowest earners. 

Trump was pals with epstein? He was calling him out years before everything came to light and banned him from his clubs.

Trump is as big a sex offender as anyone, allegedly. 
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/jeffrey-epstein-introduced-trump-14-ghislaine-maxwell-accuser-says-rcna7253

 

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2020/jul/07/fox-news-trump-epstein-maxwell-photo-cropped-out

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1 hour ago, Pasquale for King said:

You think the tories about anyone in Scotland?
Go and do some research ffs. 
She can’t spend a penny we don’t have as we can’t borrow. 
COP26 was arranged by the U.K. government had if we had to pay that’s on them, it was good for tourism etc. 
Paedo Joe dreary me, I think it was Trump and Clinton that were pals with these two. 

97D09B39-7D61-44C3-8614-FC56CB641CAD.jpeg

This thread could do with more Gifs and memes. Nice wee debate for the most part though!

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6 hours ago, JimmyCant said:

I think that everyone who lives in Scotland and contributes to it should be allowed to vote on its future. Scots who live abroad but still have financial ties and commitments here that net contribute ? I can see an argument for them having a vote too. People coincidentally born here but who have no actual vested interest here - No vote IMO

 

In my opinion, no-one living abroad should have a vote on an Independence referendum.

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Pasquale for King
18 minutes ago, Longbaws said:

This thread could do with more Gifs and memes. Nice wee debate for the most part though!

Amazing what you have lying about 😆

F35351F2-9703-4087-8655-1B23600DAC86.png

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jack D and coke
2 hours ago, Herbert said:

 

 

Alex salmond.

 

 

She's drunk on power, she's going to **** the country up. She's spending money we don't have. We wasted millions on that cop summit just so she could get a few selfies and seem relivent. Lucky peado Joe gave us a begging bowl.

Where to start here….

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29 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

 

 

Did you read that?

 

Jane didn’t allege any improper behavior by Trump and didn’t go into further detail about why she was at the resort.

 

 

Trump owned loads of clubs and no doubt met many people that are dodgy. But that doesn't mean he is one of them. He's a prick but I don't think he is into kids or is guilty of anything other than using tax loopholes and being a bit of a cock. The fact he banned epstein from his clubs for inappropriate behaviour towards his staff and called his island a cesspit and dropped hints to what goes on before he was president kind of disproves him being in that group.

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Pasquale for King
21 minutes ago, Herbert said:

 

 

Did you read that?

 

Jane didn’t allege any improper behavior by Trump and didn’t go into further detail about why she was at the resort.

 

 

Trump owned loads of clubs and no doubt met many people that are dodgy. But that doesn't mean he is one of them. He's a prick but I don't think he is into kids or is guilty of anything other than using tax loopholes and being a bit of a cock. The fact he banned epstein from his clubs for inappropriate behaviour towards his staff and called his island a cesspit and dropped hints to what goes on before he was president kind of disproves him being in that group.

I’m sure I could bore you all night with tales of Trumps sexual misdemeanours, rapes etc. 
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2021/01/jeffrey-epstein-and-donald-trump-epic-bromance


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-jeffrey-epstein-video-mar-a-lago-party-child-sex-trafficking-charge-a9008466.html

 

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jack D and coke
1 hour ago, Herbert said:

 

 

Anywhere you want. 

1. Spend money we don’t have - We get a block grant of which we must balance we cannot overspend

2. Wasted millions on COP summit - COP was hosted by U.K. and Italy 

3. She’s gawny **** the country up - :cornette:

 

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AlphonseCapone

Always have been and probably always will be yes. Never understood how anyone could see it any other way, and probably never will. I'd imagine plenty on the other side see it the same but from the other perspective. 

 

Unlike last time though I won't be getting invested in it on an emotional level or engaging in debates about it. It'll be what it'll be, and that's that. 

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