Should Scotland be an independent country?

[Unknown user]

2 minutes ago, Lord Montpelier said:

I need to go to geology remedial school to learn about all this UK tectonic plate movement obviously 

Obviously

[i wish jj was my dad]

5 minutes ago, Lord Montpelier said:

I have a unique perspective.  Scots born, English accent

 

Have had plenty of the anti English stuff since moving back directed at me. Mainly in Glasgow. Ri isn't the only one.

I can believe that unfortunately. I fear it will get worse too and NS will know that the Daily Nazi and National will ramp it right up in the months ahead 

[Dawnrazor]

Just now, Smithee said:

 

Salford and Manchester

Not far from me then, we go to see Sale Sharks and have friends in Wigan, Salford, Leigh and Orrell and not a bit of grief.

[Lord Montpelier]

Just now, Dawnrazor said:

Not far from me then, we go to see Sale Sharks and have friends in Wigan, Salford, Leigh and Orrell and not a bit of grief.

Went to college in Orrell, great place. 

[Lord Montpelier]

2 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

I can believe that unfortunately. I fear it will get worse too and NS will know that the Daily Nazi and National will ramp it right up in the months ahead 

Nothing in the East of Scotland to be fair. The frothing seems to come from Glaswegians

[Unknown user]

5 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

Not far from me then, we go to see Sale Sharks and have friends in Wigan, Salford, Leigh and Orrell and not a bit of grief.

Last time I was in Salford I saw a car full of lads slow down to give an Asian family abuse before driving off honking the horn. I saw more racist abuse in greater Manchester than I've seen anywhere else, mostly anti Asian.

 

Mind you, the time before that I saw Mark E Smith in an old fashioned Salford bar, so ups and downs. Some nick though.

Edited July 4, 2022 by Smithee

[Dawnrazor]

Just now, Lord Montpelier said:

Went to college in Orrell, great place. 

It is, I like around there, had some great nights out around that area, we go there most weekends during the Summer watching our son play rugby league, Leigh, Orrell, Wigan, Chorley, Salford, great folk.

[i wish jj was my dad]

11 minutes ago, jonesy said:

 

Weird post, bud. 

 

We're all on here firing out our ideas, opinions and trying our best to discuss all angles of the debate. I put up some reasons that no voters (traitors, quislings, or hoose jocks, I believe they are called in your wee world) might have for preferring the status quo rather than taking a leap into the unknown. 🤷‍♀️

 

I'd be surprised if you do actually vote at all, mate.  I've got a vision of you arriving at the booth and there being so much froth coming out your mouth that you inadvertently spoil your ballot paper. That's if you haven't already munched the pencil. 😁

I'm going to have trouble getting that vision out of my heid now. 

[Unknown user]

2 minutes ago, Lord Montpelier said:

Went to college in Orrell, great place. 

I don't know Orrell, I was right next to Man U's Cliff in my first year though, and Salford precinct in my second. I suspect we were witnessing different social strata.

[Unknown user]

R.I.P. Jilly's Rock World BTW

[i wish jj was my dad]

2 minutes ago, Lord Montpelier said:

Nothing in the East of Scotland to be fair. The frothing seems to come from Glaswegians

Tbf our bigger affliction is sectarianism but the point is there will always be bams looking to take out their prejudices on others. 

[Dawnrazor]

Just now, Smithee said:

Last time I was in Salford I saw a car full of lads slow down to give an Asian family abuse before driving off honking the horn. I saw more racist abuse in greater Manchester than I've seen anywhere else, mostly anti Asian.

 

Mind you, the time before that I saw Mark E Smith in an old fashioned Salford bar, so you and downs. Some nick though.

I've not witnessed that first hand but it obviously goes on, it was stoked up around Lancashire and West Yorkshire with grooming gang scandal, I've a mate in Rotherham and Keighley and it was terrible from what I hear.

There's a couple of asian lads and a black that are mates with my son and play in the same team, I've not witnessed racism at a Rugby game that I can remember.

[Nookie Bear]

29 minutes ago, Smithee said:

Exactly. We have many cultural, historical and linguistic links with Eire, does that justify a union that doesn't work for us?

Unfortunately. 

[Unknown user]

7 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

Tbf our bigger affliction is sectarianism but the point is there will always be bams looking to take out their prejudices on others. 

 

That's a great example of our cultural differences, Scotland has a problem with this that doesn't really exist in England. They're not all positive.

[JudyJudyJudy]

51 minutes ago, Lord Montpelier said:

Cumbria and Essex are different on all your points

 

As are Norfolk and Merseyside

 

As are Yorkshire and Somerset

 

All facts. But not sure what the relevance is. Places are different , right, but can still have commonality ? Scotland is 'different' to England. But not a great argument for independence. 

It’s not a great argument for independence and I reiterate sends an implicit message that we are a superior nation . 

[JudyJudyJudy]

Funnily enough this came up on my Facebook . The person wanted illustrate the point that racism does exist in Scotland . 
 

 

https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/moment-east-lothian-woman-hurled-24396264?fbclid=IwAR39XLx736MIWR5gLqgL6VhFMv9Q9myze5DEEaftVw4VwYGihkbAth5orDE&fs=e&s=cl#l573xlieoi3kmyjhm7n

[Konrad von Carstein]

 

Interesting viewpoint....

[JudyJudyJudy]

Just a reminder that all English are right wing voting loonies . It’s the first past the post system which needs changed . 
 

 

[i wish jj was my dad]

16 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

That's a great example of our cultural differences, Scotland has a problem with this that doesn't really exist in England. They're not all positive.

Agree. There are some things I really am ashamed about in Scotland. Separate schools and a government and media who just ignore it. 

[Konrad von Carstein]

3 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

It’s not a great argument for independence and I reiterate sends an implicit message that we are a superior nation . 

Would you give it a rest with the superior nation bollocks, all I've seen is people pointing out social and political differences no one is saying we are superior...apart from ri the Pict perhaps 

[i wish jj was my dad]

4 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Just a reminder that all English are right wing voting loonies . It’s the first past the post system which needs changed . 
 

 

Nobody has suggested they are. However, the fact remains that the single biggest share of the vote went to a party led by an openly intolerant charlatan. Hot on the heels of brexit. 

[The Real Maroonblood]

10 minutes ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

 

Interesting viewpoint....

Very good. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

2 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

Nobody has suggested they are. However, the fact remains that the single biggest share of the vote went to a party led by an openly intolerant charlatan. Hot on the heels of brexit. 

What ? U clearly haven’t read a few of the other threads then . 

[JudyJudyJudy]

7 minutes ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

Would you give it a rest with the superior nation bollocks, all I've seen is people pointing out social and political differences no one is saying we are superior...apart from ri the Pict perhaps 

 

[pablo]

2 hours ago, jack D and coke said:

Do people even pay attention to what the actual discussion is? Do absolutely no reading about what Scotlands needs going forward are and what we can do? Still thinking it’s all about hating the English? 

Nobody is saying we don’t want to have anything to do with the normal English punter but there are govts who don’t do what’s best for the country up here. I understand that they don’t do what’s best for average punters in liverpool or Manchester also but they don’t have an out.
We do.
Scotland surviving on fiscal transfers for the rest of its existence? That’s the best we can do?

Brexit being just one example is damaging to Scotland. Scotland has different needs. Immigration being a big one. 
The lack of investment in our renewables. 
It’s not about disliking English people for god sake even though loads of them vote fecking Tory govts on to us  
 

 

And do some people not understand that having a shit government in Westminster (and in Holyrood) isn't enough reason for a significant number of Scots to split up the country?

 

 

 

 

[i wish jj was my dad]

6 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

What ? U clearly haven’t read a few of the other threads then . 

The thread I am reading is about Scottish independence. I know we have one dafty who sounds like he would get his claymore out at the first opportunity, but almost everyone else is being reasonable in this discussion. You are trying to create a narrative that isn't there. It looks desperate tbh. 

If you want to discuss other topics or threads this isn't the place to do it IMO. 

[Lord Montpelier]

1 hour ago, Dawnrazor said:

It is, I like around there, had some great nights out around that area, we go there most weekends during the Summer watching our son play rugby league, Leigh, Orrell, Wigan, Chorley, Salford, great folk.

Rugby league - proper hard game. Played it once, scored twice, never again. I can say I have a 2 try average though. 

[Japan Jambo]

1 hour ago, Dawnrazor said:

Did you have any anti Scottish stuff in England?

 

Nope

 

Listening to this - lot of good stuff. Indy stuff starts at around 35mins

 

 

[Pasquale for King]

1 hour ago, Smithee said:

Exactly. We have many cultural, historical and linguistic links with Eire, does that justify a union that doesn't work for us?

Indeed. 

[Pasquale for King]

54 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Just a reminder that all English are right wing voting loonies . It’s the first past the post system which needs changed . 
 

 

I think that shows you how disillusioned folk are with same old politics in the U.K. at the minute, there doesn’t seem much call for the archaic FPTP to be ditched for PR, I think there’s extremely few places that use the old system now. 

[Pasquale for King]

1 hour ago, Lord Montpelier said:

Lol. You quoting from the National is like me quoting from the Daily Mail

It’s a fact no matter where it comes from. 
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/scotland-the-best-educated-country-in-europe-claims-ons-report-9497645.html

[Pasquale for King]

1 hour ago, Lord Montpelier said:

I get the renewables argument conceptually. A good one and vote winner. The SNP have yet failed to convert it into a comprehensive economic argument, other than statements like we have it 'coming out of our arses' . 

 

Which isn't a vote winner.

Where are you getting this misinformation from ffs? 
Two year old article. 
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-56530424

 

We export over 40% of what we produce. 
https://fullfact.org/environment/scotland-renewable-energy/

[Unknown user]

1 hour ago, pablo said:

 

And do some people not understand that having a shit government in Westminster (and in Holyrood) isn't enough reason for a significant number of Scots to split up the country?

 

England chooses our government, there's plenty reason for you.

[Unknown user]

"As Saudi Arabia is to oil, the UK is to wind - a place of almost limitless resource, but in the case of wind without the carbon emissions and without the damage to the environment.

 

"We've got huge, huge gusts of wind going around the north of our country - Scotland. Quite extraordinary potential we have for wind."

[JudyJudyJudy]

34 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

I think that shows you how disillusioned folk are with same old politics in the U.K. at the minute, there doesn’t seem much call for the archaic FPTP to be ditched for PR, I think there’s extremely few places that use the old system now. 

👍

[Pasquale for King]

29 minutes ago, Smithee said:

"As Saudi Arabia is to oil, the UK is to wind - a place of almost limitless resource, but in the case of wind without the carbon emissions and without the damage to the environment.

 

"We've got huge, huge gusts of wind going around the north of our country - Scotland. Quite extraordinary potential we have for wind."

We really need to do things differently though, not selling it off to the companies making huge profits whilst charging us a fortune. 

[Unknown user]

4 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

We really need to do things differently though, not selling it off to the companies making huge profits whilst charging us a fortune. 

Agreed, and I should have said, that's a quote from BawJaws by the way.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

16 minutes ago, Smithee said:

Agreed, and I should have said, that's a quote from BawJaws by the way.

He's probably lined himself up as a Sheikh with 100 concubines.

[Pasquale for King]

28 minutes ago, Smithee said:

Agreed, and I should have said, that's a quote from BawJaws by the way.

Quite a lot of his quotes can be used against him. 

[pablo]

5 hours ago, Smithee said:

 

England chooses our government, there's plenty reason for you.

 

Sounds like there's a good chance that the SNP will be choosing the next UK Government.

 

I would expect a repeat of 1979 when they paved the way for Thatcher, or more recently when they could have supported May's compromise deal with the EU. Instead we got Boris and hard Brexit.

 

The SNP and the Tories are a political version of the Old Firm.

[i wish jj was my dad]

43 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

Sounds like there's a good chance that the SNP will be choosing the next UK Government.

 

I would expect a repeat of 1979 when they paved the way for Thatcher, or more recently when they could have supported May's compromise deal with the EU. Instead we got Boris and hard Brexit.

 

The SNP and the Tories are a political version of the Old Firm.

I forgot about the SNP vote against May. Political opportunism before national interest and a big reason why we now have this charlatan at the helm. A horrible decision made in the knowledge of where it would lead. Shameful. 

[Unknown user]

2 hours ago, pablo said:

 

Sounds like there's a good chance that the SNP will be choosing the next UK Government.

 

I would expect a repeat of 1979 when they paved the way for Thatcher, or more recently when they could have supported May's compromise deal with the EU. Instead we got Boris and hard Brexit.

 

The SNP and the Tories are a political version of the Old Firm.

 

The Tories have never had a higher percentage of the UK vote since 1979, they won the election because they got the most votes, over 2 million more than labour.

 

40+ YEARS AGO IT WAS THE SNP'S FAULT!

 

 

It's the SNP's fault Brexit is shit.

 

THEY SHOULD HAVE VOTED FOR SOMETHING THEY'RE UTTERLY OPPOSED TO

🤦‍♂️

 

Don't know why you answered with the SNP when they're irrelevant to the point I made - England chooses our government, has done for decades.

 

Get off your knees.

[The Mighty Thor]

2 hours ago, pablo said:

 

Sounds like there's a good chance that the SNP will be choosing the next UK Government.

 

I would expect a repeat of 1979 when they paved the way for Thatcher, or more recently when they could have supported May's compromise deal with the EU. Instead we got Boris and hard Brexit.

 

The SNP and the Tories are a political version of the Old Firm.

You put forward reasonable stuff st times.

That's not though. 

 

May's deal was never getting through in a million years. It would have been punted back from.the upper house and ripped to shreds time and again. The ERG and English nationalist types that run the Tories would have saw to that. 

 

The 1979 argument is another chunk of romanticised 'if my auntie had baws' nonsense. 

 

You're close with the last one though. Tories and Labour a duopoly of self interest propping up a SPL type voting system which holds back the UKs democracy. 

[Lord Montpelier]

9 hours ago, Pasquale for King said:

Where are you getting this misinformation from ffs? 
Two year old article. 
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-56530424

 

We export over 40% of what we produce. 
https://fullfact.org/environment/scotland-renewable-energy/

What misinformation ?

[jambo89]

10 hours ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

Nope

 

Listening to this - lot of good stuff. Indy stuff starts at around 35mins

 

 

These 2 guys and that video really resonate with the common working man in Scotland. You should use this video of the 2 of them discussing what we should and shouldn't do, regardarding independence to convince the man on the street. 

[i wish jj was my dad]

2 hours ago, Smithee said:

 

The Tories have never had a higher percentage of the UK vote since 1979, they won the election because they got the most votes, over 2 million more than labour.

 

40+ YEARS AGO IT WAS THE SNP'S FAULT!

 

 

It's the SNP's fault Brexit is shit.

 

THEY SHOULD HAVE VOTED FOR SOMETHING THEY'RE UTTERLY OPPOSED TO

🤦‍♂️

 

Don't know why you answered with the SNP when they're irrelevant to the point I made - England chooses our government, has done for decades.

 

Get off your knees.

England do choose our Govt and have done for years, I agree. 

But SNP could have voted for May's deal rather than playing politics. That would have been the grown up thing to do. 

And I'm not on my knees. I'm just thoroughly scunnered at how political arseholery has got us into an unnecessary mess. 

[Unknown user]

14 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

I’m not convinced there is that much difference between Scottish and English people. I accept there is a lack of nuance on this debate. However, I do think people are exaggerating differences because of the binary nature of the choices 
 

The main argument, outside nationalism at its simplistic (we’re a different country), is Scotland and England are very different political and values wise. With the Brexit being cited, we are fundamentally different. 
 

On the EU the vote for UK region was 

 

Overall 52 Leave 48 Remain

England 53 Leave 47 Remain

NI 44 Leave 56 Remain

Scotland 38 Leave 62 Remain

Wales 53 Leave 47 Remain

 

When you look at the percentages. The difference are perhaps not as stark. They certainly don’t back up the narrative, some posters, are playing England is a bunch of racists and Scotland a bunch of inclusive soles wanting back into EU. 
 

The same also holds true on the political front. The tories are generally portrayed to be hated in Scotland and loved in England. The tories generally get about 30 % of vote in Scotland from memory. Whilst in England they generally get about 40%. (The exact numbers may change but the ranges hold broadly true) 

 

The nature of the electoral systems perhaps exaggerate these so called differences. Over, large numbers small differences at individual level become massively exaggerated. 
 

These don’t seem fundamental political difference tbh. 

Scotland and England score very similar in values surveys. This is especially true of north of England, such as Manchester etc. The difference is around London, in reality and some people have trouble differentiating London and England. 
 

There is a bigger East and West divergences on values, than north and south. What unites is much more things like, class, education, etc. 

 

Anyway, we have far more that unites us than separates us. That seems difficult to deny. 
 

Also some posters have questioned if their ‘chat’ is racist. I’ll give my view for what it’s worth. There is a definite tone of xenophobia on this thread, intentional or not. A number of posters on this thread continually ‘characterise’ English as a bunch of racists, who hold a bunch of negative qualities. 
 

People who choose to repeatedly  portray a country and its residents in a negative way, are definitely giving of a xenophobic vibe. 
 

We even have the, I can’t be anti English as I have English mates chat 😂 (reminded me of 80’s, I can’t be racist I have a p%k# mate), whilst at same time calling them Union Jack waving racists 🤷🏻‍♂️ (The irony has been humourous if nothing else) 
 

Weirdly, these posters tend to have their jimmies rustled is any reference to ‘jimmy hat’ type scot 🤷🏻‍♂️

 

I get their is a huge element of trolling on this thread. I also think due to passion, people don’t think about there actions may appear. Plus who gives a **** it’s a message board but we judge ourselves by our intentions and others by their actions. 
 

None of this is actually for or against independence. More an observation. 
 

This thread probably be much better if about a dozen posters received a ban. Not as funny but the quality of discussion would be much improved. 

 

That's not the main argument.

 

There's no political accountability, all we can do is hope England gives a result we like.

 

Scotland is irrelevant to Westminster, even though we're the Saudi Arabia of renewables according to the prime minister.

 

I live in poverty and ill health and what can I do about it? Wait and see what government England gives us next.

 

**** that.

[Unknown user]

23 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

England do choose our Govt and have done for years, I agree. 

But SNP could have voted for May's deal rather than playing politics. That would have been the grown up thing to do. 

And I'm not on my knees. I'm just thoroughly scunnered at how political arseholery has got us into an unnecessary mess. 

I didn't say you were on your knees mate, you're involved in the debate in good faith and listening to both sides.

[XB52]

32 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

 

The same also holds true on the political front. The tories are generally portrayed to be hated in Scotland and loved in England. The tories generally get about 30 % of vote in Scotland from memory. Whilst in England they generally get about 40%. (The exact numbers may change but the ranges hold broadly true) 
 

Over the last 25 years the tory vote averages under 20% in Scottish elections 

[Jeffros Furios]

12 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

That's not the main argument.

 

There's no political accountability, all we can do is hope England gives a result we like.

 

Scotland is irrelevant to Westminster, even though we're the Saudi Arabia of renewables according to the prime minister.

 

I live in poverty and ill health and what can I do about it? Wait and see what government England gives us next.

 

**** that.

With regards to poverty and ill health what changes would you see post Indy ? 

Do you expect a big increase in your benefits or changes to the NHS ? 

Isn't your poverty down to personal choices and not saving money when you worked ?