Should Scotland be an independent country?

[manaliveits105]

19 minutes ago, Ron Burgundy said:

Oh nasty.

 

Couldn't care less what flag my supposed little part of the world flies. Imaginary lines cause more bother than good. I can get by, just! If we became independent and I had less cash than I have now I would seriously toil. 

The difference is though that if we did gain independence I would be praying for it to be a success. There are people who actively want Brexit to be a failure cos they didn't get the result they wanted.

Yes scan the media for any snippets of Brexit problem ( but ignore how shit rest of Europe is doing)) then try and outdo each other’s outrage on the Brexit thread - very strange behaviour 

In the unlikely event Scotland gained independence the same people would probably start a similar thread on it so they can keep moaning about something 

[pablo]

5 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

I shared all the links a few pages ago, it’s been measured at various points this century and always comes out as the same. 
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/scotland-the-best-educated-country-in-europe-claims-ons-report-9497645.html

 

https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/19929900.snp-scotland-europes-best-educated-country/

 

On the face of it, that's good news. Your first source is from 2014, a generation ago some might say?

 

The other one is about the number of Scots doing any sort of further education. 

 

Got anything on mathematics and science attainment of school age children?

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 hour ago, Pasquale for King said:

Lynda Colley wrote a book in 1992 called Britons, we used it at Uni when we discussed how the British identity was created. Xenophobia and Sectarianism was at the heart of it, the Hanoverians ironically helped create a fear of others. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britons:_Forging_the_Nation_1707–1837

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linda_Colley

I’ll read it later 👍

27 minutes ago, Ron Burgundy said:

Oh nasty.

 

Couldn't care less what flag my supposed little part of the world flies. Imaginary lines cause more bother than good. I can get by, just! If we became independent and I had less cash than I have now I would seriously toil. 

The difference is though that if we did gain independence I would be praying for it to be a success. There are people who actively want Brexit to be a failure cos they didn't get the result they wanted.

Some posters are positively salivating on the Brexit thread regarding the impact Brexit has had . Sad really . I’ve kept my head high as I voted to remain but don’t gloat about the impact on every day peoples lives . That’s bad patter .,

23 minutes ago, Joey J J Jr Shabadoo said:

You just need to listen to the average English person,on TV, real life, etc to know your story is true.

Or sit in the pub before a hearts v Celtic or hibs game ! 

[Pasquale for King]

5 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

Well, we'll find out fairly soon if The Supreme Court decide to judge. If they rule that holding an Independence referendum has nothing to do with constitution then your point will be proved. Let's see what happens. 

That won’t settle it though if goes against Scotlands ability to get out the union. Who would England ask? Did the U.K. have to ask for permission from the EU, can you imagine the fuss if they had to do so? Union of equals? 
 

[JudyJudyJudy]

Scotland tap of he league in another table 

 

 

 

https://www.glasgowlive.co.uk/news/glasgow-news/scotland-cocaine-capital-world-warns-24396309?fbclid=IwAR0pxejYobL0dCKVWs7v9btYVOD5oIveVRUdoYK8A-yCeVzIGRMIV-VPoo8&fs=e&s=cl

[Lord Montpelier]

5 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Scotland tap of he league in another table 

 

 

 

https://www.glasgowlive.co.uk/news/glasgow-news/scotland-cocaine-capital-world-warns-24396309?fbclid=IwAR0pxejYobL0dCKVWs7v9btYVOD5oIveVRUdoYK8A-yCeVzIGRMIV-VPoo8&fs=e&s=cl

We are very good at drug abuse to be fair. Got even better at it under the SNP administration.  Westminsters fault though

[JudyJudyJudy]

2 minutes ago, Lord Montpelier said:

We are very good at drug abuse to be fair. Got even better at it under the SNP administration.  Westminsters fault though

Apparently so 

[pablo]

7 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

That won’t settle it though if goes against Scotlands ability to get out the union. Who would England ask? Did the U.K. have to ask for permission from the EU, can you imagine the fuss if they had to do so? Union of equals? 
 

 

But the EU isn't a sovereign country,  the UK is.

 

And while obviously it won't settle it for a minority, it would make any referendum held without permission illegal and worthless.

 

 

 

[Pasquale for King]

3 minutes ago, Lord Montpelier said:

We are very good at drug abuse to be fair. Got even better at it under the SNP administration.  Westminsters fault though

 

Just now, JudyJudyJudy said:

Apparently so 

It seems the best way to progress is to have safe rooms, which for some reason isn’t allowed? 
 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/07/18/drug-addicts-should-get-safe-rooms-take-illegal-drugs-says-royal/

 

https://www.emcdda.europa.eu/topics/pods/drug-consumption-rooms_en

 

A quick scan through this shows the problems and what can be done. 

https://www.rcpe.ac.uk/sites/default/files/drugs_deaths_in_scotland_report_final_0.pdf

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 minute ago, Pasquale for King said:

 

It seems the best way to progress is to have safe rooms, which for some reason isn’t allowed? 
 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/07/18/drug-addicts-should-get-safe-rooms-take-illegal-drugs-says-royal/

 

https://www.emcdda.europa.eu/topics/pods/drug-consumption-rooms_en

 

A quick scan through this shows the problems and what can be done. 

https://www.rcpe.ac.uk/sites/default/files/drugs_deaths_in_scotland_report_final_0.pdf

Yes I was going to mention safe rooms . It may help but doesn’t really get to the crux of the issue ? Why are people taking drugs ? What is missing in their lives ? Etc 

[Lord Montpelier]

5 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

 

It seems the best way to progress is to have safe rooms, which for some reason isn’t allowed? 
 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/07/18/drug-addicts-should-get-safe-rooms-take-illegal-drugs-says-royal/

 

https://www.emcdda.europa.eu/topics/pods/drug-consumption-rooms_en

 

A quick scan through this shows the problems and what can be done. 

https://www.rcpe.ac.uk/sites/default/files/drugs_deaths_in_scotland_report_final_0.pdf

Not one of the 5 top recommendations is stop the stuff coming in . Drug dealers getting an easy ride ? Cut the head off the snake in my view.

[Pasquale for King]

3 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

But the EU isn't a sovereign country,  the UK is.

 

And while obviously it won't settle it for a minority, it would make any referendum held without permission illegal and worthless.

 

 

 

Whether the U.K. is a country, and if Scotland is a sovereign country is up for discussion. Did we give that up in 1707? https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/1467-923X.12958
So you agree a sovereign country should be allowed referendums on independence?

[Pasquale for King]

6 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Yes I was going to mention safe rooms . It may help but doesn’t really get to the crux of the issue ? Why are people taking drugs ? What is missing in their lives ? Etc 

That study goes into the details, we need to invest more money in curing all our ills and this won’t happen in the union. 

[Pasquale for King]

4 minutes ago, Lord Montpelier said:

Not one of the 5 top recommendations is stop the stuff coming in . Drug dealers getting an easy ride ? Cut the head off the snake in my view.

I agree but that approach doesn’t work, America’s  phoney war on drugs prove this, and has led to legalising cannabis in many areas.
I’m not sure if that will happen here but if it helps then why not? 

[JudyJudyJudy]

8 minutes ago, Lord Montpelier said:

Not one of the 5 top recommendations is stop the stuff coming in . Drug dealers getting an easy ride ? Cut the head off the snake in my view.

Yes there are certainly issues with the Scottish criminal justice system . 

[Lord Montpelier]

1 minute ago, Pasquale for King said:

I agree but that approach doesn’t work, America’s  phoney war on drugs prove this, and has led to legalising cannabis in many areas.
I’m not sure if that will happen here but if it helps then why not? 

An ex school acquaintance of mine is currently banged up for 25 years at her majesty's pleasure for his role in a 66m smuggling operation. Should have been life in my view but fair to say he's not shipping in heroin anymore. 

[The Mighty Thor]

1 hour ago, Ron Burgundy said:

Oh nasty.

 

Couldn't care less what flag my supposed little part of the world flies. Imaginary lines cause more bother than good. I can get by, just! If we became independent and I had less cash than I have now I would seriously toil. 

The difference is though that if we did gain independence I would be praying for it to be a success. There are people who actively want Brexit to be a failure cos they didn't get the result they wanted.

You're going to have less cash than you have now. You've got 10% less than you had last year and when you put your heating back on in a few months you'll be looking at a real terms 20% less than you had. Whilst that is not solely down to the WM government the effects will be deeper and longer because of decisions taken by the electorate of another country. That's not right. 

 

 

[Pasquale for King]

8 minutes ago, Lord Montpelier said:

An ex school acquaintance of mine is currently banged up for 25 years at her majesty's pleasure for his role in a 66m smuggling operation. Should have been life in my view but fair to say he's not shipping in heroin anymore. 

So 12 years for good behaviour, there are worse crimes that get far less unfortunately. How network would stop e there though.
 I agree with James the criminal justice system could do with a revamp also. 

[i wish jj was my dad]

18 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Yes I was going to mention safe rooms . It may help but doesn’t really get to the crux of the issue ? Why are people taking drugs ? What is missing in their lives ? Etc 

An awful lot of it is a loss of identity. A legacy of whole communities being effectively wiped out 30-40 years ago. Generations were left with little hope when industries were closed down with nothing to replace then.

Not everyone was able to get on their bike or dig themselves out of the hole.  Loss of hope turned a lot of people to drink, drugs and crime. And when it is passed down the Ggenerations the worse it gets. That's certainly what happened where I grew up. 

[jambo89]

1 hour ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

This is a sensible voice from the middle, I'd like to expect that my average fellow countryman is beyond memes and chewing crayons and up for some sensible chat particularly here in the context of the shed. Take it or leave it as you wish.

Certainly not 'from the middle' , that's for sure. You need a reality check if you think your average countryman can identify with a fox hunting, privately educated, royalist like Rory Stewart, which was my point in the first case.

Edited July 5, 2022 by jambo89

[JudyJudyJudy]

7 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

An awful lot of it is a loss of identity. A legacy of whole communities being effectively wiped out 30-40 years ago. Generations were left with little hope when industries were closed down with nothing to replace then.

Not everyone was able to get on their bike or dig themselves out of the hole.  Loss of hope turned a lot of people to drink, drugs and crime. And when it is passed down the Ggenerations the worse it gets. That's certainly what happened where I grew up. 

Agreed . A sense of pessimism and lack of asparation 

[JudyJudyJudy]

13 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

So 12 years for good behaviour, there are worse crimes that get far less unfortunately. How network would stop e there though.
 I agree with James the criminal justice system could do with a revamp also. 

I value rehabilitation and I think it’s a laudable concept but there also needs to be some element of punishment for a crime . That’s why there is a loss of liberty , but if it’s only for a small amount of time it’s hardly a deterrent for some . More after prison care support is needed , break the cycle . 

[Pasquale for King]

13 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

I value rehabilitation and I think it’s a laudable concept but there also needs to be some element of punishment for a crime . That’s why there is a loss of liberty , but if it’s only for a small amount of time it’s hardly a deterrent for some . More after prison care support is needed , break the cycle . 

Definitely, again the cost of this prohibits a lot more being done though. It’s not going to happen in the current set up. 

[i wish jj was my dad]

23 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Agreed . A sense of pessimism and lack of asparation 

So give people hope. Something to look forward to and don't treat them as underclass spongers if they fall on hard times. Particularly, if you are responsible for creating those hard times. 

What happened when greedy b*****ds crash the banks and the economy? They punished the poor. The same mob are also destroying our chances of recovery because they wanted to take control of our borders from those nasty foreigners. So I don't see much hope on the horizon either. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

14 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

Definitely, again the cost of this prohibits a lot more being done though. It’s not going to happen in the current set up. 

And to be honest it’s not a winning policy ( after care support for ex offenders ) it bloody well should be 

[JudyJudyJudy]

2 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

So give people hope. Something to look forward to and don't treat them as underclass spongers if they fall on hard times. Particularly, if you are responsible for creating those hard times. 

What happened when greedy b*****ds crash the banks and the economy? They punished the poor. The same mob are also destroying our chances of recovery because they wanted to take control of our borders from those nasty foreigners. So I don't see much hope on the horizon either. 

Agreed ! 

[JudyJudyJudy]

3 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

So give people hope. Something to look forward to and don't treat them as underclass spongers if they fall on hard times. Particularly, if you are responsible for creating those hard times. 

What happened when greedy b*****ds crash the banks and the economy? They punished the poor. The same mob are also destroying our chances of recovery because they wanted to take control of our borders from those nasty foreigners. So I don't see much hope on the horizon either. 

But how do you break the cycle of poverty and sense of alienation experienced by the underclass ? 

[i wish jj was my dad]

Just now, JudyJudyJudy said:

But how do you break the cycle of poverty and sense of alienation experienced by the underclass ? 

I don't know. And I am not saying this is the answer but there is an argument that we remove ourselves from an institution that repeatedly allows greedy rich b*****ds from enriching themselves at the expense of everyone else. That is being made possible because other parts if the UK keep electing Tory governments and devolution can only mitigate that so much. 

I am not saying independence would lead to a more prosperous society but I do believe it would lead to a more equitable society.  That would go a long way I think in tackling the lack of hope we see today. 

[jambo89]

49 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

But how do you break the cycle of poverty and sense of alienation experienced by the underclass ? 

Interesting question.

 

For me, investing in people is the key. Forget about business' and corporation tax rates, attracting tourism, exports and all that fluff that economists say is important. We invest in the people of this country, because one begets the other afaic. That means starting from the bottom and working up. By bottom, I mean education / nursery level and pour money in to the youth of today and not just 'skirt around the edges'. I realise education is devolved but I feel we could do so much more with our own money rather than having to allocate a certain amount that is handed to us by WM. Investing in people also means allowing small business and to innovate and 'take risks' by esnuring there is adequate support on hand (perhaps in the form of a tax break / lower tax for companies with fewer than 5 people).

 

Scotland has a strong history of engineering and innovation and investing in the people of this country, rather than kowtowing to the big business' which WM love to do, would likely see us propser, all imo of course.

[i wish jj was my dad]

16 minutes ago, jambo89 said:

Interesting question.

 

For me, investing in people is the key. Forget about business' and corporation tax rates, attracting tourism, exports and all that fluff that economists say is important. We invest in the people of this country, because one begets the other afaic. That means starting from the bottom and working up. By bottom, I mean education / nursery level and pour money in to the youth of today and not just 'skirt around the edges'. I realise education is devolved but I feel we could do so much more with our own money rather than having to allocate a certain amount that is handed to us by WM. Investing in people also means allowing small business and to innovate and 'take risks' by esnuring there is adequate support on hand (perhaps in the form of a tax break / lower tax for companies with fewer than 5 people).

 

Scotland has a strong history of engineering and innovation and investing in the people of this country, rather than kowtowing to the big business' which WM love to do, would likely see us propser, all imo of course.

I think it would help a lot if we increased our manufacturing base. We were the best in the world at ships and steel once upon a time. Others have talked about renewables. That's a good place to start. 

[Ray Gin]

2 hours ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Scotland tap of he league in another table 

 

 

 

https://www.glasgowlive.co.uk/news/glasgow-news/scotland-cocaine-capital-world-warns-24396309?fbclid=IwAR0pxejYobL0dCKVWs7v9btYVOD5oIveVRUdoYK8A-yCeVzIGRMIV-VPoo8&fs=e&s=cl

 

"He states: "Scotland has the highest level of cocaine consumption in the world, with Scots taking about 1.2g of coke per session — double the global average."

 

Not overly surprising that people take that amount in a session given that by the time it reaches Scotland it's gone through multiple hands and you're lucky if it's 50% pure.
Overpriced pish. 

[Ray Gin]

2 hours ago, Lord Montpelier said:

Not one of the 5 top recommendations is stop the stuff coming in . Drug dealers getting an easy ride ? Cut the head off the snake in my view.

 

The war on drugs doesn't work.

[Lord Montpelier]

1 minute ago, Ray Gin said:

 

"He states: "Scotland has the highest level of cocaine consumption in the world, with Scots taking about 1.2g of coke per session — double the global average."

 

Not overly surprising that people take that amount in a session given that by the time it reaches Scotland it's gone through multiple hands and you're lucky if it's 50% pure.
Overpriced pish. 

Im pretty sure your not making excuses for drugs users higher rate of consumption Ray, are you. 

[Lord Montpelier]

1 minute ago, Ray Gin said:

 

The war on drugs doesn't work.

Not saying that in isolation. But has to help.

[Unknown user]

Just now, Ray Gin said:

 

The war on drugs doesn't work.

It's a proven cash burner that does nothing to help the situation, you have to be pretty far removed from the real world to think it can work.

[jambo89]

19 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

I think it would help a lot if we increased our manufacturing base. We were the best in the world at ships and steel once upon a time. Others have talked about renewables. That's a good place to start. 

That is also a good idea. Wind turbines should be built here. We have the capacity for it at ****, but that would require significant investment in energy, which is a reserved matter. We should not only manufacturing these, but innovating new ideas too.

 

The swear filter blocked N*** for some reason.

Edited July 5, 2022 by jambo89

[Unknown user]

Just now, Lord Montpelier said:

Not saying that in isolation. But has to help.

All a war on drugs does is feed the appetite of the judgemental, it's just going after people society disapproves of with no positive results.

Cut the head off, there are 5 battling to take over.

[Unknown user]

2 minutes ago, jambo89 said:

That is also a good idea. Wind turbines should be built here. We have the capacity for it at ****, but that would require significant investment in energy, which is a reserved matter. We should not only manufacturing these, but innovating new ideas too.

 

The swear filter blocked N*** for some reason.

Took me a while, a possibly racist bay?

[jambo89]

Just now, Smithee said:

Took me a while, a possibly racist bay?

I suppose it could be viewed as racist, but that's its name, so not much I can do about that.

[Dawnrazor]

3 minutes ago, jambo89 said:

That is also a good idea. Wind turbines should be built here. We have the capacity for it at ****, but that would require significant investment in energy, which is a reserved matter. We should not only manufacturing these, but innovating new ideas too.

 

The swear filter blocked N*** for some reason.

Political correctness wasn't a thing when naming villages in Easter Ross at one time.

[Lord Montpelier]

8 minutes ago, Smithee said:

All a war on drugs does is feed the appetite of the judgemental, it's just going after people society disapproves of with no positive results.

Cut the head off, there are 5 battling to take over.

By that logic we should just let drug dealers do what they want then ? Maybe give them grants and pensions whilst we are at it ?

Edited July 5, 2022 by Lord Montpelier

[jambo89]

1 minute ago, Dawnrazor said:

Political correctness wasn't a thing when naming villages in Easter Ross at one time.

I just googled it and it is from the gaelic Neig, but can't find out what that means.

[jambo89]

1 minute ago, Lord Montpelier said:

By that logic we should just let drug dealers do what they want then ? Maybe give them grants and pensions whilst we are at it ?

We do that already with Pfizer, Johnson&Johnson etc. what's the difference?

 

Edit: obviosuly not entriely serious, for the hard of thinking.

 

But I do think there should be a change in drug policy to legalisation for most drugs, allowing us to control them better.

Edited July 5, 2022 by jambo89

[Lord Montpelier]

Just now, jambo89 said:

We do that already with Pfizer, Johnson&Johnson etc. what's the difference?

I don't know. You tell me. 

[jambo89]

Just now, Lord Montpelier said:

I don't know. You tell me. 

You don't know the difference between a pharmaceutical company and a drug dealer? I'd have thought there it was obvious

[Dawnrazor]

7 minutes ago, jambo89 said:

I just googled it and it is from the gaelic Neig, but can't find out what that means.

I thought it was from the French for bad weather or storms, stormy bay maybe.

[Lord Montpelier]

3 minutes ago, jambo89 said:

You don't know the difference between a pharmaceutical company and a drug dealer? I'd have thought there it was obvious

It is. So what's your point ?

[pablo]

Is there many things that have been discussed in the last few pages, which being part of the UK precludes Scotland from focusing on? In terms of drugs, obviously we can't legalise usage or set up shooting galleries independently from the rest of the UK. That still doesn't explain why we're struggling so much with it.

 

But everything else? Growing the economy,  focusing on certain industries,  aligning education to meet the future plan. They're all things I'd expect from the Scottish Government to have a strategy on and some success in delivering after 15 years.

 

If they did, they would probably shift some undecided voters over to their side. But they don't seem capable or particularly interested.

 

The grievance shtick is a huge turn off for just as many as it's a rallying call for others. I'd go as far as to say it's actually pretty Un-Scottish considering what our forefathers gave the world. Albeit mostly as part of the British Empire 😀

[jambo89]

4 minutes ago, Lord Montpelier said:

It is. So what's your point ?

My point was below?

12 minutes ago, jambo89 said:

We do that already with Pfizer, Johnson&Johnson etc. what's the difference?

 

Edit: obviosuly not entriely serious, for the hard of thinking.

 

But I do think there should be a change in drug policy to legalisation for most drugs, allowing us to control them better.

Not sure how much clearer I can be.

[jack D and coke]