Should Scotland be an independent country?

[Lord Montpelier]

1 minute ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

Well paid apprenticeships would be a start. Maybe with a state funded incentive for successfully completing. 

Back in the day kids were getting paid £25 a week for making tea and running errands. It was just a means of keeping them off the dole stats. 

 

Proper modern apprenticeships paying a living wage would be a far better proposition than a kiddy on degree. 

Dig a hole in a road. Then get the guy behind to fill it in. Pay them both. However relevant, people need to be working. 

[Dawnrazor]

8 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

 

Back in the day kids were getting paid £25 a week for making tea and running errands. It was just a means of keeping them off the dole stats.

I never thought the YOP or YTS were bad things, aye sure, a lot of employers abused the system but it was often a gateway into a job, it was for me, it gave kids a taste of getting up in the morning, being somewhere on time and taking instructions from a boss, all good things imo.

[i wish jj was my dad]

2 minutes ago, Lord Montpelier said:

Dig a hole in a road. Then get the guy behind to fill it in. Pay them both. However relevant, people need to be working. 

I've thought about that myself and it is better than nothing but there are more productive methods. Councils could sponsor young people who are not in employment or education to carry out community work. There is always shit needing done and often it is relatively easy to do.  It would need some supervision and admin but it should be do-able without breaking the bank. 

Similarly, SG could help fund apprenticeships in public bodies where there are skills shortages. It could range from Planning, building control, etc, to catering and caring. 

Much better than leaving young people on their arses. 

[Lord Montpelier]

8 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

I've thought about that myself and it is better than nothing but there are more productive methods. Councils could sponsor young people who are not in employment or education to carry out community work. There is always shit needing done and often it is relatively easy to do.  It would need some supervision and admin but it should be do-able without breaking the bank. 

Similarly, SG could help fund apprenticeships in public bodies where there are skills shortages. It could range from Planning, building control, etc, to catering and caring. 

Much better than leaving young people on their arses. 

Believe me, Im with you

 

A lot of young folk are part of a new 'entitled to' generation

Some frankly can't be arsed getting off their arses. I'm related to a few. 

[i wish jj was my dad]

4 minutes ago, Lord Montpelier said:

Believe me, Im with you

 

A lot of young folk are part of a new 'entitled to' generation

Some frankly can't be arsed getting off their arses. I'm related to a few. 

I don't think you are as with me as you think.

Yes, there are self entitled young people who need to get off their arse but that runs through all generations.

We need to incentivise work.

[Unknown user]

2 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

I don't think you are as with me as you think.

Yes, there are self entitled young people who need to get off their arse but that runs through all generations.

We need to incentivise work.

[Ked]

9 minutes ago, Lord Montpelier said:

Believe me, Im with you

 

A lot of young folk are part of a new 'entitled to' generation

Some frankly can't be arsed getting off their arses. I'm related to a few. 

Who entitled them though?

We all to a certain extent feathered that nest .

 

[OTT]

 

58 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

Well paid apprenticeships would be a start. Maybe with a state funded incentive for successfully completing. 

Back in the day kids were getting paid £25 a week for making tea and running errands. It was just a means of keeping them off the dole stats. 

 

Proper modern apprenticeships paying a living wage would be a far better proposition than a kiddy on degree. 

 

This is actually something I've been thinking about. I'm fairly certain its my mates who went into trades that are best paid. Think encouraging folk to pursue degrees with no realistic employment prospects is a bit daft. Completely support free at the point of access further education, but the merits of so called 'pointless' degrees is something worth talking about and debating. 

[hughesie27]

Jacob Rees-Mog as PM please. Tory party shouldn't back down. Double down.

[OTT]

1 minute ago, hughesie27 said:

Jacob Rees-Mog as PM please. Tory party shouldn't back down. Double down.

 

 

Heartless tories for the heartless tory god!!!

 

Seriously, this could be fantastic, bad to worse  

 

Suspect someone more moderate will likely be chosen. Javid himself could be a viable choice. Maybe they want to completely double down though. 

[i wish jj was my dad]

2 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

 

Heartless tories for the heartless tory god!!!

 

Seriously, this could be fantastic, bad to worse  

 

Suspect someone more moderate will likely be chosen. Javid himself could be a viable choice. Maybe they want to completely double down though. 

I know it is tongue in cheek but in nobody's world is Rees Mogg getting into no10 a good thing. He is the only choice I can think if who is worse than BloJo. 

Even although nothing would surprise me with them they are good at winning elections. Shirley, they will anoint a moderate whose hands and c*ck are clean just to get them to a GE. 

[Lord Montpelier]

1 hour ago, Ked said:

Who entitled them though?

We all to a certain extent feathered that nest .

 

Some have the wits about them to get on with life. Some don't. 

 

The ones I know that are pulling the benefit money are mentally and physically perfectly able to work. But don't. And vote with the SNP funnily enough. 

[hughesie27]

30 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

I know it is tongue in cheek but in nobody's world is Rees Mogg getting into no10 a good thing. He is the only choice I can think if who is worse than BloJo. 

Even although nothing would surprise me with them they are good at winning elections. Shirley, they will anoint a moderate whose hands and c*ck are clean just to get them to a GE. 

I dont think anyone would be worse than Bojo. At least Mogg is an intelligent man who could back his policies up with right wing rhetoric.

[hughesie27]

Hes on Sky now actually.

[i wish jj was my dad]

Just now, hughesie27 said:

I dont think anyone would be worse than Bojo. At least Mogg is an intelligent man who could back his policies up with right wing rhetoric.

He has the same amount of integrity and less charisma. If they appoint him the yes vote would go through the roof. They are not that stupid. 

[Lord Montpelier]

34 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

I know it is tongue in cheek but in nobody's world is Rees Mogg getting into no10 a good thing. He is the only choice I can think if who is worse than BloJo. 

Even although nothing would surprise me with them they are good at winning elections. Shirley, they will anoint a moderate whose hands and c*ck are clean just to get them to a GE. 

We're back in the 1970s as it is. JRM would take the country to the 18th century 

[i wish jj was my dad]

1 minute ago, Lord Montpelier said:

We're back in the 1970s as it is. JRM would take the country to the 18th century 

Dermot Murnaghan and Beth Rigby ripping the arse off him right now

[JudyJudyJudy]

2 hours ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

Well paid apprenticeships would be a start. Maybe with a state funded incentive for successfully completing. 

Back in the day kids were getting paid £25 a week for making tea and running errands. It was just a means of keeping them off the dole stats. 

 

Proper modern apprenticeships paying a living wage would be a far better proposition than a kiddy on degree. 

Exactly always encouraged the young people I worked with a few years back to consider apprenticeships or just starting at the bottom rung of the ladder in an organisation . The push to get people into uni is just a racket in my opinion and only profits unis . 

1 hour ago, Dawnrazor said:

I never thought the YOP or YTS were bad things, aye sure, a lot of employers abused the system but it was often a gateway into a job, it was for me, it gave kids a taste of getting up in the morning, being somewhere on time and taking instructions from a boss, all good things imo.

Exactly . A reason to get up in the morning , a routine etc 

1 hour ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

I don't think you are as with me as you think.

Yes, there are self entitled young people who need to get off their arse but that runs through all generations.

We need to incentivise work.

It’s the “ culture of dependency “ really . 

1 hour ago, Ked said:

Who entitled them though?

We all to a certain extent feathered that nest .

 

Very true there needs to be mid levelling of works v benefits I feel .

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 hour ago, OTT said:

 

 

This is actually something I've been thinking about. I'm fairly certain its my mates who went into trades that are best paid. Think encouraging folk to pursue degrees with no realistic employment prospects is a bit daft. Completely support free at the point of access further education, but the merits of so called 'pointless' degrees is something worth talking about and debating. 

Yep one of my neice partner earns around £6 grand a month as tradesman . Hard physical work but well worth it financially . And why shouldn’t he get a good pay packet ? 

[i wish jj was my dad]

1 minute ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

 

Exactly . A reason to get up in the morning , a routine etc 

It’s the “ culture of dependency “ really . 

 

Partly, but's not just the culture of dependency. Wealthy and middle class have similar types. They are better insulated though.  

[Unknown user]

1 hour ago, hughesie27 said:

Jacob Rees-Mog as PM please. Tory party shouldn't back down. Double down.

 

He's a cross between Victorian dad and Raffles the gentleman thug.

[Jambo 4 Ever]

Nicola must secretly want Boris to stay 

[i wish jj was my dad]

5 minutes ago, Jambo 4 Ever said:

Nicola must secretly want Boris to stay 

Incisive contribution

[jack D and coke]

19 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

He's a cross between Victorian dad and Raffles the gentleman thug.

Class. Is one staring at my pint 😂

[XB52]

Just to add some sanity amongst the right wing/anti-SG posts regarding all the workshy (obviously all snp voters) Scots; the unemployment rate in Scotland is currently at a very low rate of 3. 2%, compared to 3.7 in the UK. 

 

[i wish jj was my dad]

1 hour ago, Lord Montpelier said:

Some have the wits about them to get on with life. Some don't. 

 

The ones I know that are pulling the benefit money are mentally and physically perfectly able to work. But don't. And vote with the SNP funnily enough. 

So the SNP are the party of the layabout? Awfy simplistic. 

[Ked]

3 hours ago, Lord Montpelier said:

Some have the wits about them to get on with life. Some don't. 

 

The ones I know that are pulling the benefit money are mentally and physically perfectly able to work. But don't. And vote with the SNP funnily enough. 

Mmm

Small percentages.

It's easy to shirk responsibility to young people.

Let's look at what they face.

Rising housing costs

Diminishing housing affordability

Guess which generation does well .

Guess which generation does worse

Guess the the gap between home ownership and renting.

And Guess what takes more of your income.

 

It's a cheap shot against young people and one that is always taken.

And what's more we raised young people.

Young people will shoulder our shit stewardship of 

1.

The environment they inheritance

2.

The debt we have saddled them with

3

The oh so fekin poor provision of profit towards investment as per capital of enrichment

4.

The value and wealth of property versus the prosperity of our children

 

 

Blaming young people while in charge is shit.

It's not even down to socialist spend today fek tomorrow.

It's alack of conservative Scottish values that's allowed because the grant system of money allocate to Scotland sets a mindset that sees a middle class comfort that allows no ambition for Scotlands children.

And that's not a racist xenophobic thing

It's a mindset .

It's a system to allow dependency.

And it you who spoutspish about young people being layabouts wants to divulge.

Then you should be on the same page.

We set the example to young people

Not the other way round.

And that is set by having the balls to take our balls and saying here the fek they are.

 

 

The last couple of pages have been full 9f shot.

Factually and mortally.

Capitalism is all about confidence.

Get out yer beds and work for a living.

[Ked]

I read today that Scotlands the cocaine use capital of the world.

What acoincidence.

The same shit same decade different substance..

 

Where as u don't count ourselves on the same level it has to be countered that our substance self abuse is measured with other similar people that reflect the same numbers.

Why is that?

We are not per say the same.

 

Imo it amounts to a pervading overall mindset of benefit culture .

Which is reinforced by the grant allocation of funds.

Astonishingly supported  by Scottish tories and Scottish unionists and Scottish ex pats.

It's a fekin shameful state of affairs to be greeting "oh oh a cannae live wayoot ma giro"

Let's pul our socks up and sort it out for our bairns instead of let's rely on some other **** to do it ffs.

[Pasquale for King]

23 minutes ago, Ked said:

Mmm

Small percentages.

It's easy to shirk responsibility to young people.

Let's look at what they face.

Rising housing costs

Diminishing housing affordability

Guess which generation does well .

Guess which generation does worse

Guess the the gap between home ownership and renting.

And Guess what takes more of your income.

 

It's a cheap shot against young people and one that is always taken.

And what's more we raised young people.

Young people will shoulder our shit stewardship of 

1.

The environment they inheritance

2.

The debt we have saddled them with

3

The oh so fekin poor provision of profit towards investment as per capital of enrichment

4.

The value and wealth of property versus the prosperity of our children

 

 

Blaming young people while in charge is shit.

It's not even down to socialist spend today fek tomorrow.

It's alack of conservative Scottish values that's allowed because the grant system of money allocate to Scotland sets a mindset that sees a middle class comfort that allows no ambition for Scotlands children.

And that's not a racist xenophobic thing

It's a mindset .

It's a system to allow dependency.

And it you who spoutspish about young people being layabouts wants to divulge.

Then you should be on the same page.

We set the example to young people

Not the other way round.

And that is set by having the balls to take our balls and saying here the fek they are.

 

 

The last couple of pages have been full 9f shot.

Factually and mortally.

Capitalism is all about confidence.

Get out yer beds and work for a living.

Spot on. 
18-24 year olds used to tend not to vote and therefore are shit upon from a great height, hopefully that’s changing. 

[Unknown user]

3 minutes ago, Ked said:

I read today that Scotlands the cocaine use capital of the world.

What acoincidence.

The same shit same decade different substance..

 

Where as u don't count ourselves on the same level it has to be countered that our substance self abuse is measured with other similar people that reflect the same numbers.

Why is that?

We are not per say the same.

 

Imo it amounts to a pervading overall mindset of benefit culture .

Which is reinforced by the grant allocation of funds.

Astonishingly supported  by Scottish tories and Scottish unionists and Scottish ex pats.

It's a fekin shameful state of affairs to be greeting "oh oh a cannae live wayoot ma giro"

Let's pul our socks up and sort it out for our bairns instead of let's rely on some other **** to do it ffs.

Didn't someone say earlier that unemployment in Scotland is 3.2%, and in England it's 3.7%?

[Ray Gin]

19 minutes ago, Ked said:

I read today that Scotlands the cocaine use capital of the world.

What acoincidence.

The same shit same decade different substance..

 

Where as u don't count ourselves on the same level it has to be countered that our substance self abuse is measured with other similar people that reflect the same numbers.

Why is that?

We are not per say the same.

 

Imo it amounts to a pervading overall mindset of benefit culture .

Which is reinforced by the grant allocation of funds.

Astonishingly supported  by Scottish tories and Scottish unionists and Scottish ex pats.

It's a fekin shameful state of affairs to be greeting "oh oh a cannae live wayoot ma giro"

Let's pul our socks up and sort it out for our bairns instead of let's rely on some other **** to do it ffs.

 

You think folk on benefits are the ones hoovering cocaine? 

[Ked]

6 hours ago, Ray Gin said:

 

You think folk on benefits are the ones hoovering cocaine? 

I was meaning more the mindset of Scotland.

I posted whilst having a drink last night not always a good combination.

[i wish jj was my dad]

7 hours ago, Ked said:

Mmm

Small percentages.

It's easy to shirk responsibility to young people.

Let's look at what they face.

Rising housing costs

Diminishing housing affordability

Guess which generation does well .

Guess which generation does worse

Guess the the gap between home ownership and renting.

And Guess what takes more of your income.

 

It's a cheap shot against young people and one that is always taken.

And what's more we raised young people.

Young people will shoulder our shit stewardship of 

1.

The environment they inheritance

2.

The debt we have saddled them with

3

The oh so fekin poor provision of profit towards investment as per capital of enrichment

4.

The value and wealth of property versus the prosperity of our children

 

 

Blaming young people while in charge is shit.

It's not even down to socialist spend today fek tomorrow.

It's alack of conservative Scottish values that's allowed because the grant system of money allocate to Scotland sets a mindset that sees a middle class comfort that allows no ambition for Scotlands children.

And that's not a racist xenophobic thing

It's a mindset .

It's a system to allow dependency.

And it you who spoutspish about young people being layabouts wants to divulge.

Then you should be on the same page.

We set the example to young people

Not the other way round.

And that is set by having the balls to take our balls and saying here the fek they are.

 

 

The last couple of pages have been full 9f shot.

Factually and mortally.

Capitalism is all about confidence.

Get out yer beds and work for a living.

I think you misread the central point. It came from the discussion about the drug culture which I think was largely brought about by Thatcher's policies creating a lack of hope in some communities. 

I suggested some long term measures to bring some hope back including incentivised modern apprenticeships. One or two of the No camp jumped in about young people feeling entitled. Entirely not the point at all. 

[pablo]

Quelle suprise......

 

Sturgeon goes straight to the Supreme Court because her own Law Officer declined to allow her to put her Bill before the Scottish Parliament.

 

Not the Tories, not Westminster, not an English court. Her own Lord Advocate.

 

[The Mighty Thor]

13 hours ago, Lord Montpelier said:

Believe me, Im with you

 

A lot of young folk are part of a new 'entitled to' generation

Some frankly can't be arsed getting off their arses. I'm related to a few. 

 

12 hours ago, Lord Montpelier said:

Some have the wits about them to get on with life. Some don't. 

 

The ones I know that are pulling the benefit money are mentally and physically perfectly able to work. But don't. And vote with the SNP funnily enough. 

Ah the benefit scroungers trope much loved of the right wing types.

 

The right wing view of benefits is folks sitting about getting their houses, mobiles, Sky packages paid for.

 

The reality in the UK after 14 years of Tory austerity and fiscal policy? Working people using foodbanks to survive. 

 

 

[A Boy Named Crow]

13 minutes ago, pablo said:

Quelle suprise......

 

Sturgeon goes straight to the Supreme Court because her own Law Officer declined to allow her to put her Bill before the Scottish Parliament.

 

Not the Tories, not Westminster, not an English court. Her own Lord Advocate.

 

Depends how you want to look at it,  it seems the Lord Advocate wanted a ruling on which to base her opinion. Going to the court provides that ruling. Is this a bad thing?

[pablo]

11 minutes ago, A Boy Named Crow said:

Depends how you want to look at it,  it seems the Lord Advocate wanted a ruling on which to base her opinion. Going to the court provides that ruling. Is this a bad thing?

 

Ha ha........seriously? Although I suppose we now know why she kept her special legal advice secret.

 

“The lord advocate needs to have the necessary degree of confidence that a bill would be within devolved competence in order to ‘clear’ such a statement,” Bain said. “In the present case, the lord advocate does not have the necessary degree of confidence.”

 

 

[graygo]

11 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

Ha ha........seriously? Although I suppose we now know why she kept her special legal advice secret.

 

“The lord advocate needs to have the necessary degree of confidence that a bill would be within devolved competence in order to ‘clear’ such a statement,” Bain said. “In the present case, the lord advocate does not have the necessary degree of confidence.”

 

Why is that a surprise? Nicola Sturgeon doesn't have a huge degree of confidence that the Supreme court will rule in her favour. It's a means to an end.

[pablo]

Just now, graygo said:

 

Why is that a surprise? Nicola Sturgeon doesn't have a huge degree of confidence that the Supreme court will rule in her favour. It's a means to an end.

 

The Supreme Court might not even rule without a Bill.

 

Isn't ignoring legal advice and cracking on regardless not a bit Borisy?

[A Boy Named Crow]

17 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

Ha ha........seriously? Although I suppose we now know why she kept her special legal advice secret.

 

“The lord advocate needs to have the necessary degree of confidence that a bill would be within devolved competence in order to ‘clear’ such a statement,” Bain said. “In the present case, the lord advocate does not have the necessary degree of confidence.”

 

 

I was being serious, the Lord Advocate couldn't have the necessary degree of confidence. By testing it in court, confidence either way is assured, everybody knows where they stand. 

[graygo]

17 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

The Supreme Court might not even rule without a Bill.

 

Isn't ignoring legal advice and cracking on regardless not a bit Borisy?

But the legal advice might have been to go to the Supreme court, how is that ignoring it?

[jambo89]

1 hour ago, pablo said:

Quelle suprise......

 

Sturgeon goes straight to the Supreme Court because her own Law Officer declined to allow her to put her Bill before the Scottish Parliament.

 

Not the Tories, not Westminster, not an English court. Her own Lord Advocate.

 

The way I read that is that she is taking the Lord Advocate's advice? Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but it seems the LA wasn't sure if the referendum would be legal, so asked Sturgeon to take it to the Surpreme court to alleviate her concerns? Basically, she wasn't sure so ask the highest court in the land?

[Spellczech]

Re title question...

 

Hell no, it would compound the idiocy of Brexit. Going alone in a globalising World is crazy thinking. All about power-hungry politicians and not at all about what is best for the people. What we need is a complete overhaul of the parliamentary system which is totally anachronistic. We now have politicians who lie openly and this needs to stop.

[pablo]

5 minutes ago, jambo89 said:

The way I read that is that she is taking the Lord Advocate's advice? Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but it seems the LA wasn't sure if the referendum would be legal, so asked Sturgeon to take it to the Surpreme court to alleviate her concerns? Basically, she wasn't sure so ask the highest court in the land?

 

You mean she had no choice? Which is completely different to how she presented the decision last week. Setting up imaginary conflict with Westminster.

 

So she already knew the legal route would be blocked. Her own Law Office had told her.

 

So de facto referendum at the next GE? If anyone has any doubt about the meaning of de facto, look it up.

[jambo89]

5 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

You mean she had no choice? Which is completely different to how she presented the decision last week. Setting up imaginary conflict with Westminster.

 

So she already knew the legal route would be blocked. Her own Law Office had told her.

 

So de facto referendum at the next GE? If anyone has any doubt about the meaning of de facto, look it up.

Who had no choice, Sturgeon or the LA? I don't know where you are getting that the legal route is blocked from? The LA said she wasn't sure so has taken it to the Supreme Court and they have yet to rule? Unless I missed their ruling of course.

[pablo]

12 minutes ago, jambo89 said:

Who had no choice, Sturgeon or the LA? I don't know where you are getting that the legal route is blocked from? The LA said she wasn't sure so has taken it to the Supreme Court and they have yet to rule? Unless I missed their ruling of course.

 

Sturgeon had no choice. That's why she repeatedly refused to answer last week questions about if the Lord Advocate thought the Bill was within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.

 

It's now been revealed that the Lord Advocate thought it did not.

 

Maybe she just forgot what was in her secret legal advice? Obfuscation, redaction and secrecy, it's the SNP way.

[jambo89]

Just now, pablo said:

 

Sturgeon had no choice. That's why she repeatedly refused to answer last week questions about if the Lord Advocate thought the Bill was within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.

 

It's now been revealed that the Lord Advocate thought it did not.

 

Maybe she just forgot what was in her secret legal advice? Obfuscation, redaction and secrecy, it's the SNP way.

That article you posted doesn't say that at all.

 

Also not sure how secret the advice was if the BBC news has published it, but there you go.

[pablo]

Just now, jambo89 said:

That article you posted doesn't say that at all.

 

Also not sure how secret the advice was if the BBC news has published it, but there you go.

 

Mate, the Lord Advocate's thoughts on it to the Supreme Court was only revealed after a request for information by a SNP MSP.

 

 

[jambo89]

7 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

Mate, the Lord Advocate's thoughts on it to the Supreme Court was only revealed after a request for information by a SNP MSP.

 

 

 

So SNP are s*** at keeping secrets then. Still doesn't change the fact that what you are saying happened and what was written in that article do not align. I understand you are against a 2nd referendum, but I don't see any issues with what you posted in that link about the process or how the SNP are going about obtaining a 2nd referendum.

[Lord Montpelier]

2 hours ago, The Mighty Thor said:

 

Ah the benefit scroungers trope much loved of the right wing types.

 

The right wing view of benefits is folks sitting about getting their houses, mobiles, Sky packages paid for.

 

The reality in the UK after 14 years of Tory austerity and fiscal policy? Working people using foodbanks to survive. 

 

 

Talking from personal family experience MT. Had all the opportunities you could ask for from a good upbringing but frankly can't be arsed.

 

Other youngsters I know do themselves proud. 

 

But we make it to easy for some to lounge about. 

 

No issues for those who are disadvantaged to get their fair share.