Should Scotland be an independent country?

[Weakened Offender]

4 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

Yeah probably. But I don't believe breaking up the UK is the solution to it.

 

What do you believe will stop people in Scotland suffering more financial hardship than is necessary because consecutive Tory governments keep prioritising lining the pockets of themselves, and their pals, before supporting decent, hard working people or decent people who want to work hard?

Edited June 30, 2022 by Weakened Offender

[Ked]

1 hour ago, pablo said:

 

But the cost of living crisis is an inflation driven global issue, mostly down to supply chain issues and the rising cost of energy, made worse by the impact of the war in Ukraine.

 

The UK is further impacted by Brexit weekening the pound. The cost of imports has gone up and we now have trading friction with our largest trading partner. The same thing could and many think would happen with Scexit.

 

That's without even considering the currency situation.

Of course it is.

It's a global economy .

But as I said you can't say we can't blame Westminster then say we can't take responsibilty.

Westminster gives us our giro 

Westminster sets the tone.

Truth is even if we are independent the tone is set by our more powerful neighbour.

And the rest of the world.

What independence gives us is no excuses.

 

[frankblack]

4 minutes ago, Weakened Offender said:

 

What do you believe will stop people in Scotland suffering more financial hardship than is necessary because consecutive Tory governments keep prioritising lining the pockets of themselves, and their pals, before supporting decent, hard working people or decent people who want to work hard?

 

Your solution to the Tories is to cause hardship many more times severe than whatever Westminster manages.

 

That is called cutting your nose off to spite your face.

[Ked]

1 minute ago, Weakened Offender said:

 

What do you believe will stop people in Scotland suffering more financial hardship than is necessary because consecutive Tory governments keep prioritising lining the pockets of themselves, and their pals, before supporting decent, hard working people or decent people who want to work hard?

I'm going to disagree.

Not that I support the current government but generally speaking I don't think that's the problem for Scotland.

If the independence argument is to be won it won't be that we suffer a particular hardship.

The vast majority don't.

But the argument has to be that we won't suffer hardship and that we can express ourselves as a country.

Hopefully (which you won't like(through a progressive conservative politic.

 

There is no currency debate .

There is no financial meltdown.

 

There is however real technical difficulties that are as complicated as brexit but we have the means to deal with that.

We have a separate law system and a mature democracy.

That cannot be underestimatec.

[Ked]

3 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Your solution to the Tories is to cause hardship many more times severe than whatever Westminster manages.

 

That is called cutting your nose off to spite your face.

You keep saying that but the argument lacks substance.

[pablo]

11 minutes ago, Weakened Offender said:

 

What do you believe will stop people in Scotland suffering more financial hardship than is necessary because consecutive Tory governments keep prioritising lining the pockets of themselves, and their pals, before supporting decent, hard working people or decent people who want to work hard?

 

For Scots?

 

The removal of the SNP Government from Holyrood and replaced with one whose priority is growing the economy and improving lives of all our people.

 

[The Mighty Thor]

26 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

I'm not suggesting it, the London School of Economics is, between 15% and 30% possibly.

 

What's Northern Ireland got to do with anything? They have the Good Friday Agreement and access to the single market.

 

You lot thinking about starting blowing things up to try and get your own version? 

So the London School of economics are suggesting that goods, lets say foodstuffs, that have been imported to the UK from Europe will suddenly go up 15-30% when the truck rolls through Berwick? 😂😂😂

What's going to cause this increase of one third?

 

It reeks of another 2014 doozy about the supermarkets pulling out of Scotland. Risible nonsense with zero foundation. 

 

What NI has to do with it is obvious. Their economy is outperforming the rest of the UK by a factor because they're outside the self imposed sanctions. 

 

Your last point is the nonsense I'd expect. 

 

[The Mighty Thor]

6 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Your solution to the Tories is to cause hardship many more times severe than whatever Westminster manages.

 

That is called cutting your nose off to spite your face.

You've got anything to back up this many times worse theory plz?

 

Bear in mind we're allegedly 9.1% worse off this year already. 

[Weakened Offender]

7 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Your solution to the Tories is to cause hardship many more times severe than whatever Westminster manages.

 

That is called cutting your nose off to spite your face.

 

Seriously mate, that's just pish you're posting now.

[Weakened Offender]

3 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

For Scots?

 

The removal of the SNP Government from Holyrood and replaced with one whose priority is growing the economy and improving lives of all our people.

 

 

You are the epitome of a Scottish Unionist. 

[The Mighty Thor]

2 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

For Scots?

 

The removal of the SNP Government from Holyrood and replaced with one whose priority is growing the economy and improving lives of all our people.

 

Which pro union party will do this? The Tories?

 

How will this other government achieve your aims with the same block grant?

 

Why hasn't this improvement happened in the last 300 years when Westminster Parliaments had full control of Scotland?

 

[pablo]

8 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

So the London School of economics are suggesting that goods, lets say foodstuffs, that have been imported to the UK from Europe will suddenly go up 15-30% when the truck rolls through Berwick? 😂😂😂

What's going to cause this increase of one third?

 

It reeks of another 2014 doozy about the supermarkets pulling out of Scotland. Risible nonsense with zero foundation. 

 

What NI has to do with it is obvious. Their economy is outperforming the rest of the UK by a factor because they're outside the self imposed sanctions. 

 

Your last point is the nonsense I'd expect. 

 

brexit17 (1).pdf

 

There you go, some light reading for you. Enjoy.

 

So Northern Ireland's special position, and I agree it's outperformance of the mainland UK is irrefutable economic evidence of the shitshow that is Brexit.

 

So how does your vision of an Independent Scotland replicate what NI has? 

[pablo]

7 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Which pro union party will do this? The Tories?

 

How will this other government achieve your aims with the same block grant?

 

Why hasn't this improvement happened in the last 300 years when Westminster Parliaments had full control of Scotland?

 

 

Any party that doesn't give up on their ambition of closing the attainment gap. Any party not cutting local authority budgets. Any party not wasting taxpayers money on a pretend referendum or opening pretend embassies abroad (strangely Madrid yet to be announced?)

[The Mighty Thor]

4 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

Any party that doesn't give up on their ambition of closing the attainment gap. Any party not cutting local authority budgets. Any party not wasting taxpayers money on a pretend referendum or opening pretend embassies abroad (strangely Madrid yet to be announced?)

So how will they achieve all these desirable outcomes with the same block grant. 

 

Why do you think local authority budgets, which come from the block grant, are being cut? Could it be a real terms decline in the block grant? 

 

Tax payers money? Didn't you suggest a few posts back that the billions siphoned off to Tory donors and chums was irrelevant? 

 

Pretend this, pretend that. Deary me. 

[frankblack]

21 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

You've got anything to back up this many times worse theory plz?

 

Bear in mind we're allegedly 9.1% worse off this year already. 

 

The SNP have had since 2014 to provide substance to their approach to independence.  However since they have dodged that because they haven't any plans we have to call out the concerns.

[frankblack]

25 minutes ago, Weakened Offender said:

 

Seriously mate, that's just pish you're posting now.

 

Nice constructive argument.

 

Brexit bad so vote for ScExit and make it worse.

[Ked]

9 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

Any party that doesn't give up on their ambition of closing the attainment gap. Any party not cutting local authority budgets. Any party not wasting taxpayers money on a pretend referendum or opening pretend embassies abroad (strangely Madrid yet to be announced?)

We are on this thread talking about the viability of Scottish independence.

 

The performance of the SNP which by the way has been centre right in a lot of aspects isn't the argument here.

 

So what are the main concerns about independence?

Let's try and argue the merits without either governments record.

I keep reading we would be poorer.

How is that?

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

35 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

So the London School of economics are suggesting that goods, lets say foodstuffs, that have been imported to the UK from Europe will suddenly go up 15-30% when the truck rolls through Berwick? 😂😂😂

What's going to cause this increase of one third?

 

It reeks of another 2014 doozy about the supermarkets pulling out of Scotland. Risible nonsense with zero foundation. 

 

What NI has to do with it is obvious. Their economy is outperforming the rest of the UK by a factor because they're outside the self imposed sanctions. 

 

Your last point is the nonsense I'd expect. 

 

This is a stretch. Northern Ireland's economy has the largest public sector employment as a percentage of anywhere in the UK but people have equated good performance (second to London, which is, er, outside of the single market) with single market access. Until there is more distance post-Covid it is a stretch to say with certainty that single market access is a key contributor. That doesn't mean it isn't a positive contributor but people are running ahead of themselves because it suits a political narrative.

[The Mighty Thor]

12 minutes ago, pablo said:

brexit17 (1).pdf 749.27 kB · 1 download

 

There you go, some light reading for you. Enjoy.

 

So Northern Ireland's special position, and I agree it's outperformance of the mainland UK is irrefutable economic evidence of the shitshow that is Brexit.

 

So how does your vision of an Independent Scotland replicate what NI has? 

Thanks for that. 

 

Their primary assumption is based on trade barriers being erected by an international border. Whilst I understand the logic of that a hard border between Scotland and England would serve neither country and would therefore be unlikely.

 

A wee nugget on page 11 for you buried in amongst the waffle..

 

"But, unfortunately, we do not know exactly how large the border costs would be."

 

Secondly their Brexit data is based on 2021 before the bin fire started. 

 

On NI It would appear countries not hitched to the UK economic sanctions are doing alright thanks. There might be something to that. 

[pablo]

Just now, The Mighty Thor said:

So how will they achieve all these desirable outcomes with the same block grant. 

 

Why do you think local authority budgets, which come from the block grant, are being cut? Could it be a real terms decline in the block grant? 

 

Tax payers money? Didn't you suggest a few posts back that the billions siphoned off to Tory donors and chums was irrelevant? 

 

Pretend this, pretend that. Deary me. 

 

Ah, you're already forgetting the Scottish Government's own spending review last month. The one that showed we're now collecting less tax in Scotland than we should be. Years of economic failure and low growth means that we're collecting less money as average wages grow slower here than elsewhere in the UK. 

 

That gap in our finances is resulting in an 8% cut in local authority spending. That's absolutely brutal.

 

And they are spending tax payers money on a referendum that polls show the majority of people don't want, they are spending taxpayers money on pretend embassies when foreign policy is a reserved matter. And the ferry scandal is an example of an uncosted public procurement which has been a disaster.

 

That's all public money that could and should be used better.

 

 

[Guest]

Don't know what folk are getting excited about. Its not going to happen. Supreme court will kick it out, Boris won't agree to it and SNP will win most seats but not a simple majority in the next GE.

[The Mighty Thor]

14 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

The SNP have had since 2014 to provide substance to their approach to independence.  However since they have dodged that because they haven't any plans we have to call out the concerns.

Admirable.

 

So anyway these benefits of the union?

 

Tell you what even the benefits since 2014 would be good?

[manaliveits105]

15 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

The SNP have had since 2014 to provide substance to their approach to independence.  However since they have dodged that because they haven't any plans we have to call out the concerns.

Correct they’re shit and we know they are 

[The Mighty Thor]

2 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

Ah, you're already forgetting the Scottish Government's own spending review last month. The one that showed we're now collecting less tax in Scotland than we should be. Years of economic failure and low growth means that we're collecting less money as average wages grow slower here than elsewhere in the UK. 

 

That gap in our finances is resulting in an 8% cut in local authority spending. That's absolutely brutal.

 

And they are spending tax payers money on a referendum that polls show the majority of people don't want, they are spending taxpayers money on pretend embassies when foreign policy is a reserved matter. And the ferry scandal is an example of an uncosted public procurement which has been a disaster.

 

That's all public money that could and should be used better.

 

 

So again from the top. Tax take is down, block grant shrinking in real terms, how is your non SNP Government delivering your goals? 

[Konrad von Carstein]

51 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Your solution to the Tories is to cause hardship many more times severe than whatever Westminster manages.

 

That is called cutting your nose off to spite your face.

That is an opinion that you hold, you cannot unequivocally state what you have as it's an unknown.

[The Mighty Thor]

6 minutes ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

This is a stretch. Northern Ireland's economy has the largest public sector employment as a percentage of anywhere in the UK but people have equated good performance (second to London, which is, er, outside of the single market) with single market access. Until there is more distance post-Covid it is a stretch to say with certainty that single market access is a key contributor. That doesn't mean it isn't a positive contributor but people are running ahead of themselves because it suits a political narrative.

A stretch it may be but its a fact. 

Will we get to see a longer term outcome? Doubt it. They want to drag NI backwards lest it fails the whole project. 

[i wish jj was my dad]

2 hours ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

It’s nothing to do with the gangsters in Westminster but governing your own affairs.

Maybe I find it too simplistic to want Scotland to run it’s own affairs.

 i don't think it makes folk spineless not to vote for something they don't believe in. 

FWIW, I think when it comes down to it, I'll opt to vote yes again because I don't want to regret not taking what could be the final opportunity to do our own thing and our way but I'd much rather my choice was better than choosing Scottish rather than English arseholes. Right now that's what it feels like. 

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

1 minute ago, The Mighty Thor said:

A stretch it may be but its a fact. 

Will we get to see a longer term outcome? Doubt it. They want to drag NI backwards lest it fails the whole project. 

Actually, to be fair to HMG, what isn't being said in the UK media is that around 80% of the protocol has yet to be implemented. If it was being implemented in full, every single car on the Cairnryan ferries would be subject to customs declarations and would not be allowed to bring food on to the boat, in extremis.

 

That said, Boris created the problem with his "oven ready" bullshit but that was because squaring the circle of stopping migration alongside having a full trading relationship was impossible.

[The Mighty Thor]

1 minute ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

Actually, to be fair to HMG, what isn't being said in the UK media is that around 80% of the protocol has yet to be implemented. If it was being implemented in full, every single car on the Cairnryan ferries would be subject to customs declarations and would not be allowed to bring food on to the boat, in extremis.

 

That said, Boris created the problem with his "oven ready" bullshit but that was because squaring the circle of stopping migration alongside having a full trading relationship was impossible.

I guess it's what happens when you have a government and PM who are not details guys and your default is to try to bluster your way out of the shit you create. 

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

2 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

I guess it's what happens when you have a government and PM who are not details guys and your default is to try to bluster your way out of the shit you create. 

Bingo

[i wish jj was my dad]

2 hours ago, pablo said:

 

Laying the blame for the cost of living crisis solely at the feet of Westminster is ridiculous.

 

The only thing Westminster is responsible for which has exacerbated the issue, is Brexit! 

 

So try to claim that copying the worst elements of that with Scexit and then presenting it as a solution to cost of living crisis, won't convince many other than the already committed. 

Brexit has such an impact on just about everything we do 

 It really was gross stupidity in order  to enrich a small cohort of people who are already filthy rich. It would be interesting to see what it meant for RUk if Scotland got back into the EU. It would show up the little englanders for what they are. 

[i wish jj was my dad]

2 hours ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Just Brexit? Say it really quickly and it'll not seem that relevant. Our 'self imposed' economic sanctions have deepened and will lengthen the financial crisis significantly and will limit our ability to trade out of it. Truss' super trade deals with Aruba won't really recover the situation. 

 

Don't forget the profligacy of the Covid feeding frenzy when huge sums of public wealth (future debt) was transferred into private hands (donors/sponsors/chums)

 

It should be noted that HM Queen is getting an extra £30m to tide her over though. I'm sure pensioners up and down the land will be treated similarly?

Brexit and covid were fantastic opportunities to shovel more of our national wealth into the pockets of gangsters. The Tories greatest achievements since gaining power in 2010. 

[frankblack]

9 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

Brexit has such an impact on just about everything we do 

 It really was gross stupidity in order  to enrich a small cohort of people who are already filthy rich. It would be interesting to see what it meant for RUk if Scotland got back into the EU. It would show up the little englanders for what they are. 

 

Brexit isn't the significant  factor in the cost of living crisis.

 

As for second point, need to meet EU  entry criteria and build a wall between Scotland and England first.

[Ked]

20 minutes ago, jonesy said:

I guess the reality is we simply don’t know. It’s whichever side you believe in, for most. There appears to plenty of available ‘evidence’ to dig out no matter which one you prefer, which in itself means that neither side has the lead in the argument. 
 

What this nonsense is really hitting home to me is how much one layer of government really ought to be gotten rid of. I don’t particularly care which, but I hope the fallout of whatever happens next year results in either Holyrood or Westminster ceasing to be part of our electoral landscape. It’s a bloated shambles.

It kind of sticks in my throat but I totally agree.

The democracy industry is now a favoured route for the privileged.

You hardly see grass root politicians.

As a conservative I want less government with less powers.

I am totally in favour of the free European model but the quasi Soviet model (don't want to defend that statement its just a feeling) makes me uneasy.

Which is why I prefer a representative of local culture.

Free trade with standards .

 

Idealistic I know.

But in the meantime let's vote for people we can throw stones ar 

[Ked]

9 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Brexit isn't the significant  factor in the cost of living crisis.

 

As for second point, need to meet EU  entry criteria and build a wall between Scotland and England first.

If brexit isn't a significant factor in the cost of living why did you allude to Scexit being one earlier.

 

BTW the same goes opposite.

[i wish jj was my dad]

20 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Brexit isn't the significant  factor in the cost of living crisis.

 

As for second point, need to meet EU  entry criteria and build a wall between Scotland and England first.

You don't think voluntarily placing barriers on international trade have an impact on the cost of living? 

Why won't we meet EU entry criteria? We are a naturally rich and democratic country with many assets and trade opportunities for EU partners.

And i'd be surprised if even the most rabid little englander wants to build a trump type wall at the border. If more barriers to international trade are your idea of global Britain then I think you are doing a good job of persuading your turkeys to vote for Xmas.   

[Japan Jambo]

1 hour ago, pablo said:

brexit17 (1).pdf 749.27 kB · 1 download

 

There you go, some light reading for you. Enjoy.

 

So Northern Ireland's special position, and I agree it's outperformance of the mainland UK is irrefutable economic evidence of the shitshow that is Brexit.

 

So how does your vision of an Independent Scotland replicate what NI has? 

 

very interesting read, thanks Pablo. No good economic outcomes there.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

14 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

You don't think voluntarily placing barriers on international trade have an impact on the cost of living? 

Why won't we meet EU entry criteria? We are a naturally rich and democratic country with many assets and trade opportunities for EU partners.

And i'd be surprised if even the most rabid little englander wants to build a trump type wall at the border. If more barriers to international trade are your idea of global Britain then I think you are doing a good job of persuading your turkeys to vote for Xmas.   

The big difference with an independent Scotland's membership of the EU isn't convergence criteria. It's the disappearance of UK opt-outs. Would the EU allow Scotland an exemption from Schengen, for example, because a fully open border to Europe probably wouldn't be reciprocated at Berwick and Carlisle? It's possible, of course, but it shouldn't be assumed that "rejoining" means a copy and paste from what previously existed.

[i wish jj was my dad]

2 minutes ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

The big difference with an independent Scotland's membership of the EU isn't convergence criteria. It's the disappearance of UK opt-outs. Would the EU allow Scotland an exemption from Schengen, for example, because a fully open border to Europe probably wouldn't be reciprocated at Berwick and Carlisle? It's possible, of course, but it shouldn't be assumed that "rejoining" means a copy and paste from what previously existed.

I'm far from knowledgeable on what EU negotiations would look like but I agree we can't turn back the clock to 2015. However, I am confident that non confrontational negotiations which aren't playing to a daily nazi audience will yield a favourable outcome

[i wish jj was my dad]

An unusually constructive debate on QT in Aberdeen. I think Angus Robertson came out on points but most surprisingly I wasn't shouting at Fraser Nelson who tried really hard to behave like less of a twat. 

[Mysterion]

5 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

Please clarify how leaving the UK in the middle of a recession is less of a gamble than remaining part of it?

I don’t think it is statistically better, I do think that it’s the equiv of being offered 1/1000 to stay or 1/1500 to leave… both are poor odds. We’re getting it tight regardless. 

 

Ultimately I believe that no one can declare we’ll be better or worse off. I think a there will be a number of Indie leaning voters (who were maybe a No last time or on the fence) who may now have a mindset and a belief there is nothing to lose because the metaphorical odds are poor. 
 

Hope this makes sense fb. 

[Ked]

1 hour ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

very interesting read, thanks Pablo. No good economic outcomes there.

There's unlikely to be saying as the advice they sought on the Scottish economy was from an advisor to the better together campaign.

It's a 23 page opinion piece that seeks to forecast 30 years of financial outcome.

It takes absolutely no account of migration ,environmental pressures,the advent of emerging markets but merely adds up on the current situation of the world.

I could finance other students to write similar reports .

 

This financial scaremongering doesn't wash.

 

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

9 minutes ago, Ked said:

There's unlikely to be saying as the advice they sought on the Scottish economy was from an advisor to the better together campaign.

It's a 23 page opinion piece that seeks to forecast 30 years of financial outcome.

It takes absolutely no account of migration ,environmental pressures,the advent of emerging markets but merely adds up on the current situation of the world.

I could finance other students to write similar reports .

 

This financial scaremongering doesn't wash.

 

Anyone making economic predictions 30 years ahead is writing fables. There are massive challenges for humanity in the next 30 years and the political constructs of what Holyrood has control of will have little bearing on those.

[That thing you do]

8 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

Nice constructive argument.

 

Brexit bad so vote for ScExit and make it worse.

SCEXIT?????

 

Cmon theres better Acronyms

 

EXBRIT

 

SCOOT

 

I disagree independence ends up being worse than Brexit. The only way to believe that is if you assume the only change is independence but policy, economic outlook and spending will be as in the UK, which, they wont.

 

All our cloest neighbours are about Scotlands size and comparatively do better, with or without oil/renewables. 

 

Why would Scotland be uniquely different?

 

Or is the argument, the union has created such an economic mess we cant leave, strike up the band on the deck of the titanic?...not a ringing endorsement is it? 

 

I always wonder why Scotland apparently unable to support itself is the argument for the system that supposedly made it a basket case.

 

Its more of an argument for independence.

[That thing you do]

5 hours ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

Anyone making economic predictions 30 years ahead is writing fables. There are massive challenges for humanity in the next 30 years and the political constructs of what Holyrood has control of will have little bearing on those.

Thats a fair point. 

 

The argument you could make is indy Scotland as a smaller nation can be more agile in responding to those issues. Nimble economies have adaptability and bounceback ability compared to larger nations.

 

[i wish jj was my dad]

9 hours ago, pablo said:

 

Ah, you're already forgetting the Scottish Government's own spending review last month. The one that showed we're now collecting less tax in Scotland than we should be. Years of economic failure and low growth means that we're collecting less money as average wages grow slower here than elsewhere in the UK. 

 

That gap in our finances is resulting in an 8% cut in local authority spending. That's absolutely brutal.

 

And they are spending tax payers money on a referendum that polls show the majority of people don't want, they are spending taxpayers money on pretend embassies when foreign policy is a reserved matter. And the ferry scandal is an example of an uncosted public procurement which has been a disaster.

 

That's all public money that could and should be used better.

 

 

While I agree with your point, the money being spent on the Referendum won't be huge tbf but it will divert the attention of a lot of people who could otherwise be focused on improving the economy and making lives better for people. That's the part that bothers me.  The FM has made a deliberate choice on timing because she wants to capitalise on the shambles running WM. 

[frankblack]

8 hours ago, Ked said:

If brexit isn't a significant factor in the cost of living why did you allude to Scexit being one earlier.

 

BTW the same goes opposite.

 

Energy is clearly the primary reason for the cost of living crisis and attempting to look further is straw clutching.  Its that obvious that its not worth debating.

 

As for ScExit I was merely pointing out the contradictions in the arguments here for independence.  Why would you be outraged at Brexit but be all for cutting ties with your biggest trading partner?  If you want your independence so badly, why are you so desperate for Brussels to run the country instead of Westminster?

 

The other argument seems to be that the Tories will win the next election.  I'll repeat what I said before - there is next to no chance of them getting back in.  They are toxic nationwide and a Labour landslide should be inevitable.

[That thing you do]

4 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Energy is clearly the primary reason for the cost of living crisis and attempting to look further is straw clutching.  Its that obvious that its not worth debating.

 

As for ScExit I was merely pointing out the contradictions in the arguments here for independence.  Why would you be outraged at Brexit but be all for cutting ties with your biggest trading partner?  If you want your independence so badly, why are you so desperate for Brussels to run the country instead of Westminster?

 

The other argument seems to be that the Tories will win the next election.  I'll repeat what I said before - there is next to no chance of them getting back in.  They are toxic nationwide and a Labour landslide should be inevitable.

Brussells wouldnt rule Scotland. Thats the HUGE difference. EU law is designed for consistency accross the bloc so a widget in poland is the same as a widget in Scotland. To do that, certain rules are agreed by all via voting ie working time directives, employment law, tax oversight

 

But, its done with a voice to vote against. If the EU was so bad, why did the UK either a) author alot of its reforms that it now criticises and b) rarely veto anything that got passed into legislation?

 

Where it did opt out, ie schengen, it could. 

 

The UK didnt need a section 30 equivalent for Brexit vote from the EU it just did it.

 

Did Denmark need permission to reinstate borders during covid? No, it just did it.

 

There is so much misinformation about how the EU works. It is not Brussells rule. 

 

This from people in a country where an unelected second chamber in the shape of the House of Lords is part of its system.

 

As for the cutting ties part. Brexit is cutting ties because the UK chose to walk away from those ties by refusing to be in the common market and creating hostility. Scotland is not going to refuse to trade with England,  or vice versa.

 

We would be cutting ties of being governed by London, not economic or social ties. 

[Unknown user]

37 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Energy is clearly the primary reason for the cost of living crisis and attempting to look further is straw clutching.  Its that obvious that its not worth debating.

 

As for ScExit I was merely pointing out the contradictions in the arguments here for independence.  Why would you be outraged at Brexit but be all for cutting ties with your biggest trading partner?  If you want your independence so badly, why are you so desperate for Brussels to run the country instead of Westminster?

 

The other argument seems to be that the Tories will win the next election.  I'll repeat what I said before - there is next to no chance of them getting back in.  They are toxic nationwide and a Labour landslide should be inevitable.

 

You ignore the biggest argument for independence - independence.

[The Mighty Thor]

40 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Energy is clearly the primary reason for the cost of living crisis and attempting to look further is straw clutching.  Its that obvious that its not worth debating.

 

As for ScExit I was merely pointing out the contradictions in the arguments here for independence.  Why would you be outraged at Brexit but be all for cutting ties with your biggest trading partner?  If you want your independence so badly, why are you so desperate for Brussels to run the country instead of Westminster?

 

The other argument seems to be that the Tories will win the next election.  I'll repeat what I said before - there is next to no chance of them getting back in.  They are toxic nationwide and a Labour landslide should be inevitable.

Energy is a contributory factor in the current COL crisis. Brexit is a huge factor in terms of foods and goods. To suggest it's not worth debating is ludicrous. 

 

2014 stuff again. Brussles running the Scot Gov? Come on. You're making yourself look a bit silly here.

 

The Tories will win the next election for reasons I've already explained to you. You seem unable to acknowledge that the power of the English Nationalist argument which was strong enough to tempt voters in 'Red' constituencies to vote for Johnson will still be strong enough when CCHQ run the same English Nationalist grievance campaign again.