Should Scotland be an independent country?

[The Mighty Thor]

37 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

So you think jumping off into the abyss with no plan is going to make things better?  Good luck.

 

Boris will be gone soon with his party.

 

Given the shitshow up here with trains and ferries let alone just about every other area of devolved government being worse than when the nats took over, I fail to see any evidence that lot are competent to have full fiscal control.

We're jumping into the abyss regardless as we've got absolutely no say on any of the decisions the Westminster Government of the day takes and yet they impact 'our share' of the UK 'deficit'. 

 

As I said yesterday Johnson is the latest in a very long line of UK Governments (of both colours) with absolutely zero interest in Scotland whatsoever. It's always been keep the sweaties quiet. 

 

I'd like to see evidence of 'every other area of devolved government being worse' plz. 

[The Mighty Thor]

1 minute ago, frankblack said:

 

By blaming Westminster for everything, accepting no responsibility for their own failings, and giving no plan on how they would implement independence and get around the well publicised obstacles to prosperity.

 

All we get is talk of this independence utopia where Scotland goes off into the sunset quids in with absolutely zero detail to allow scrutiny, which the electorate is entitled to.

Again it's all hyperbole ala 2014 Frank.

 

You're playing 'Now that's what I call Unionism 2014' greatest hits CD on repeat. 

 

Like the Brexit debacle has unfolded as being a tissue of lies, the 'Better Together' claims of 2014 have been dismantled as being half truths and utter nonsense one by one. 

 

How about you give us a list of the benefits of being hitched to Westminster. We know what the SNP are selling, whatcha got?

[frankblack]

3 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

We're jumping into the abyss regardless as we've got absolutely no say on any of the decisions the Westminster Government of the day takes and yet they impact 'our share' of the UK 'deficit'. 

 

As I said yesterday Johnson is the latest in a very long line of UK Governments (of both colours) with absolutely zero interest in Scotland whatsoever. It's always been keep the sweaties quiet. 

 

I'd like to see evidence of 'every other area of devolved government being worse' plz. 

 

I won't defend Boris, but I'd argue he and his party are doing a shit job for everyone and are despised across the UK and heading for a well-deserved kick in the baws from the electorate.

[The Mighty Thor]

Just now, frankblack said:

 

I won't defend Boris, but I'd argue he and his party are doing a shit job for everyone and are despised across the UK and heading for a well-deserved kick in the baws from the electorate.

Are they? I don't think so. Johnson will go and he will be replaced by a clone from the roster of fools. Then we'll get more of the same as the Tory party now is not the Tory party of your youth. It's the English National party, as ******* hybrid of the ERG-UKIP-BNP who have consumed the traditional conservatives from the arsehole out. 

 

We'll get another 10 years of that. How is that going to improve Scotland's lot? 

[frankblack]

2 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Again it's all hyperbole ala 2014 Frank.

 

You're playing 'Now that's what I call Unionism 2014' greatest hits CD on repeat. 

 

Like the Brexit debacle has unfolded as being a tissue of lies, the 'Better Together' claims of 2014 have been dismantled as being half truths and utter nonsense one by one. 

 

In 2014 the nationalists said Scotland would be quids in with oil to drive our economy then the price crashed a few weeks later.  Oops.

 

2 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

How about you give us a list of the benefits of being hitched to Westminster. We know what the SNP are selling, whatcha got?

 

There are plenty but thats been discussed to death.  Let me reverse this and ask what the economic benefits to the workforce are to voting for independence?

[i wish jj was my dad]

1 minute ago, frankblack said:

 

By blaming Westminster for everything, accepting no responsibility for their own failings, and giving no plan on how they would implement independence and get around the well publicised obstacles to prosperity.

 

All we get is talk of this independence utopia where Scotland goes off into the sunset quids in with absolutely zero detail to allow scrutiny, which the electorate is entitled to.

How is that trying to sneak a vote though? As far as I can tell they have been pretty up front that they want a Referendum, as well as being clear about by when and which means. And I still can't connect it to your point about turkeys and Xmas.

On the assumption that your later post is not connected to your first I expect them to publish their plans and consult on them. They may get torn to bits but that's the chance they have to take. If their plans consist of It's A the effing Tories fault we urnae living in milk and honey they deserve everything they get.

I'm instinctively inclined to support independence but I'll need convinced it's the better option before I cast my vote.  Telling me we are too small, poor, stupid etc a d telling lies about doomsday isn't the going to convince me to vote no though. 

[frankblack]

1 minute ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Are they? I don't think so. Johnson will go and he will be replaced by a clone from the roster of fools. Then we'll get more of the same as the Tory party now is not the Tory party of your youth. It's the English National party, as ******* hybrid of the ERG-UKIP-BNP who have consumed the traditional conservatives from the arsehole out. 

 

We'll get another 10 years of that. How is that going to improve Scotland's lot? 

 

The tories aren't going to win the next election mate, nor will their right-wing chums.

[frankblack]

1 minute ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

How is that trying to sneak a vote though? As far as I can tell they have been pretty up front that they want a Referendum, as well as being clear about by when and which means. And I still can't connect it to your point about turkeys and Xmas.

On the assumption that your later post is not connected to your first I expect them to publish their plans and consult on them. They may get torn to bits but that's the chance they have to take. If their plans consist of It's A the effing Tories fault we urnae living in milk and honey they deserve everything they get.

I'm instinctively inclined to support independence but I'll need convinced it's the better option before I cast my vote.  Telling me we are too small, poor, stupid etc a d telling lies about doomsday isn't the going to convince me to vote no though. 

 

My point was about your final part there - they want to run for independence without letting people know what they are getting.  As for them publishing a consultation, if its anything like the white paper from 2014 god help us.

[i wish jj was my dad]

5 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

I won't defend Boris, but I'd argue he and his party are doing a shit job for everyone and are despised across the UK and heading for a well-deserved kick in the baws from the electorate.

And the same shower of chancers have been making it increasingly worse since 2010 and the English electorate keep swallowing it. Why should I have faith that is going to suddenly change? 

If we do get independence, I'm much more confident that the democratic will of Scotland will be respected. 

[hughesie27]

1 hour ago, jack D and coke said:

This was printed before last indyref too. 

Despite that SNP were prepared to take on Scotland's share of the debt in exchange for use of Sterling. Torys said they would reject that deal. Would they ****.

[i wish jj was my dad]

Just now, frankblack said:

 

My point was about your final part there - they want to run for independence without letting people know what they are getting.  As for them publishing a consultation, if its anything like the white paper from 2014 god help us.

I'm no very bright but as far as white papers go i thought it was pretty up front. I don't want to do whatabootery but how do you rate the integrity and transparency of the yes campaign to better together and brexit? It's all I can really compare it to.

[jack D and coke]

1 minute ago, hughesie27 said:

Despite that SNP were prepared to take on Scotland's share of the debt in exchange for use of Sterling. Torys said they would reject that deal. Would they ****.

Without getting into whether a good idea or not sharing currency you’d certainly doubt it eh. 

[The Mighty Thor]

7 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

In 2014 the nationalists said Scotland would be quids in with oil to drive our economy then the price crashed a few weeks later.  Oops.

Was that on CD 1 or CD 2?

The same Scottish oil that's going to be bailing out whole UK during this cost of living crisis?

9 minutes ago, frankblack said:

There are plenty but thats been discussed to death.  Let me reverse this and ask what the economic benefits to the workforce are to voting for independence?

Indulge me. Not the 2014 arguments but the hot take of 2022 benefits of being in the Union. 

 

Here's what will happen on 20th October 2023 if Scotland gains independence. Folk will get up, go to work and world will keep on turning. 

 

What do you think was going to happen?

[jack D and coke]

It’s always amazing to me how many unionists read that white paper.
Thoosands ay them. 
Well except from Frank who voted Yes last time and that is despite the fact he trots out every single unionist fear line from 2014 too😐

[The Mighty Thor]

12 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

The tories aren't going to win the next election mate, nor will their right-wing chums.

They will Frank. They'll campaign on the 2016 greatest hits. Brexit. Brown faces. Make England Great Again. 

It'll work. Sponsored by the Nazi/Express/Sun/Torygraph.

 

When they do it'll be a huge green light to their psuedo-fascist agenda.

 

Britain will not improve under them. 

[The Real Maroonblood]

2 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

It’s always amazing to me how many unionists read that white paper.
Thoosands ay them. 
Well except from Frank who voted Yes last time and that is despite the fact he trots out every single unionist fear line from 2014 too😐

It saddens me to see how many spineless Scots there is.

No backbone.

[hughesie27]

Hits the nail right on the head at the end of this rant.

 

[Japan Jambo]

1 hour ago, jack D and coke said:

This was printed before last indyref too. 

 

Bond holders will have entered into contracts with the UK government and they would naturally be unwilling to have a slug of this apportioned to a counterparty with no previous repayment history (at least without a premium) so leaving the counterparties as is makes sense.

 

If you don't characterise a bilateral agreement to make payments for an agreed amount of time as a debt how would you represent it? The article contradicts itself.

 

 

[jack D and coke]

2 minutes ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

Bond holders will have entered into contracts with the UK government and they would naturally be unwilling to have a slug of this apportioned to a counterparty with no previous repayment history (at least without a premium) so leaving the counterparties as is makes sense.

 

If you don't characterise a bilateral agreement to make payments for an agreed amount of time as a debt how would you represent it? The article contradicts itself.

 

 

Osborne confirmed the uk would take over the debt. I seen it more than once around the time of the first one. 
However it’s been suggested by the snp that there would be some form of payment. Good faith if you like maybe I don’t know 

[Japan Jambo]

Just now, jack D and coke said:

Osborne confirmed the uk would take over the debt. I seen it more than once around the time of the first one. 
However it’s been suggested by the snp that there would be some form of payment. Good faith if you like maybe I don’t know 

 

Nope it'll a loan/debt that is negotiated (badly and with rancour, by both sides I'll warrant) as part of the divorce agreement should there be a referendum/Yes vote.

[i wish jj was my dad]

1 hour ago, frankblack said:

 

The tories aren't going to win the next election mate, nor will their right-wing chums.

As much as I hope you are correct history suggests otherwise.  The right wing media generally take care of that.

Do we just keep crossing our fingers and hope that one day the Little Englander card suddenly stops appealing to the same electorate that repeatedly fall for it? 

[Ked]

1 hour ago, The Mighty Thor said:

They will Frank. They'll campaign on the 2016 greatest hits. Brexit. Brown faces. Make England Great Again. 

It'll work. Sponsored by the Nazi/Express/Sun/Torygraph.

 

When they do it'll be a huge green light to their psuedo-fascist agenda.

 

Britain will not improve under them. 

I think you maybe right about them winning the next election.

 

It may seem extreme to label them fascist but in the definition of the term they are.

I would hope that Scottish Conservative minded voters could see the opportunity for Scotland.

 

[i wish jj was my dad]

1 hour ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

It saddens me to see how many spineless Scots there is.

No backbone.

It's not spineless. And I actually find that quite an offensive remark. Folk like me genuinely want to understand the arguments and make an informed choice. I don't want to make it on the basis that anything is better than being run by the current mob of fascist gangsters. 

[Ked]

28 minutes ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

Nope it'll a loan/debt that is negotiated (badly and with rancour, by both sides I'll warrant) as part of the divorce agreement should there be a referendum/Yes vote.

There's no doubt it will be difficult to untangle 300 years of union.

But Scotland holds a decent hand to play with.

England is weak governed by sell outs.

 

[Ked]

1 hour ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

It saddens me to see how many spineless Scots there is.

No backbone.

That's harsh even though I sympathise with the sentiment.

Many of those you accuse of no backbone have likely worked hard to set up their loved ones.

We live in a society as does most of western Europe where people are generally satisfied and don't want disruption.

[Ked]

42 minutes ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

Bond holders will have entered into contracts with the UK government and they would naturally be unwilling to have a slug of this apportioned to a counterparty with no previous repayment history (at least without a premium) so leaving the counterparties as is makes sense.

 

If you don't characterise a bilateral agreement to make payments for an agreed amount of time as a debt how would you represent it? The article contradicts itself.

 

 

Never the less the value of these bonds could only be honoured.

They are as concrete as the words on a pound note.

Promise to pay.

There would be no devaluation of any share of finance.

These red herrings are exactly that.

You cannot devalue any form of currency as it destabilises the promise of it.

These are scare stories.

What does have credence is trade .

That alone is the question that needs answered.

The pound may devalue after independence as may the related bonds but that will be because of uncertainty.

Affecting both nations.

It cant just affect one.

 

My view of it 

[Ked]

This may not sit well with many who want independence but the argument for it imo lies in a centre right cause.

Because the argument from a centre left or further is doomed.

 

And the argument against independence currently amounts to financial ruin.

Absolutely not the case.

Trade may be a real problem .

But remember that a country's wealth is majorly created internally.

[pablo]

 

Laying the blame for the cost of living crisis solely at the feet of Westminster is ridiculous.

 

The only thing Westminster is responsible for which has exacerbated the issue, is Brexit! 

 

So try to claim that copying the worst elements of that with Scexit and then presenting it as a solution to cost of living crisis, won't convince many other than the already committed. 

[Ked]

1 minute ago, pablo said:

 

Laying the blame for the cost of living crisis solely at the feet of Westminster is ridiculous.

 

The only thing Westminster is responsible for which has exacerbated the issue, is Brexit! 

 

So try to claim that copying the worst elements of that with Scexit and then presenting it as a solution to cost of living crisis, won't convince many other than the already committed. 

Not helping that a conservative government sees the way out as raising taxes.

The points you raise about blame though.

A really good reason imo why we should be governing ourselves.

I get sick of the a but Westminster shit as well.

Let's take responsiblity stop taking a giro and govern our own shit.

You cannot give the argument that we can't blame Westminster but continue the argument that we continue to be financed and ultimately governed by them.

 

[Ray Gin]

The UK’s trade performance this year fell to its worst level since records began, heaping more pressure on sterling in international currency markets.

[The Real Maroonblood]

25 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

It's not spineless. And I actually find that quite an offensive remark. Folk like me genuinely want to understand the arguments and make an informed choice. I don't want to make it on the basis that anything is better than being run by the current mob of fascist gangsters. 

It’s nothing to do with the gangsters in Westminster but governing your own affairs.

21 minutes ago, Ked said:

That's harsh even though I sympathise with the sentiment.

Many of those you accuse of no backbone have likely worked hard to set up their loved ones.

We live in a society as does most of western Europe where people are generally satisfied and don't want disruption.

Maybe I find it too simplistic to want Scotland to run it’s own affairs.

[Unknown user]

1 hour ago, frankblack said:

 

The tories aren't going to win the next election mate, nor will their right-wing chums.

Whether Tory, labour or whatever, the winner of the next election will be decided in England.

[pablo]

8 minutes ago, Ked said:

Not helping that a conservative government sees the way out as raising taxes.

The points you raise about blame though.

A really good reason imo why we should be governing ourselves.

I get sick of the a but Westminster shit as well.

Let's take responsiblity stop taking a giro and govern our own shit.

You cannot give the argument that we can't blame Westminster but continue the argument that we continue to be financed and ultimately governed by them.

 

 

But the cost of living crisis is an inflation driven global issue, mostly down to supply chain issues and the rising cost of energy, made worse by the impact of the war in Ukraine.

 

The UK is further impacted by Brexit weekening the pound. The cost of imports has gone up and we now have trading friction with our largest trading partner. The same thing could and many think would happen with Scexit.

 

That's without even considering the currency situation.

Edited June 30, 2022 by pablo

[Konrad von Carstein]

11 minutes ago, Smithee said:

Whether Tory, labour or whatever, the winner of the next election will be decided in England.

And some people in Scotland think that is an acceptable state.of affairs in a union of equals.

Try not to laugh! Feckin depressing 

[The Mighty Thor]

31 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

Laying the blame for the cost of living crisis solely at the feet of Westminster is ridiculous.

 

The only thing Westminster is responsible for which has exacerbated the issue, is Brexit! 

Just Brexit? Say it really quickly and it'll not seem that relevant. Our 'self imposed' economic sanctions have deepened and will lengthen the financial crisis significantly and will limit our ability to trade out of it. Truss' super trade deals with Aruba won't really recover the situation. 

 

Don't forget the profligacy of the Covid feeding frenzy when huge sums of public wealth (future debt) was transferred into private hands (donors/sponsors/chums)

 

It should be noted that HM Queen is getting an extra £30m to tide her over though. I'm sure pensioners up and down the land will be treated similarly?

[pablo]

2 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Just Brexit? Say it really quickly and it'll not seem that relevant. Our 'self imposed' economic sanctions have deepened and will lengthen the financial crisis significantly and will limit our ability to trade out of it. Truss' super trade deals with Aruba won't really recover the situation. 

 

Don't forget the profligacy of the Covid feeding frenzy when huge sums of public wealth (future debt) was transferred into private hands (donors/sponsors/chums)

 

It should be noted that HM Queen is getting an extra £30m to tide her over though. I'm sure pensioners up and down the land will be treated similarly?

 

Yes Brexit is a disaster. How could putting an international border across Britain and increasing the costs of imports into Scotland, mirroring Brexit and the UK/EU trading partnership possibly be a good thing for Scotland?

 

 

[Weakened Offender]

2 hours ago, jack D and coke said:

It’s always amazing to me how many unionists read that white paper.
Thoosands ay them. 
Well except from Frank who voted Yes last time and that is despite the fact he trots out every single unionist fear line from 2014 too😐

Josey and James voted YES last time too and they are baith STAUNCH yoonyinists noo. 😁

[Weakened Offender]

1 hour ago, pablo said:

 

The only thing Westminster is responsible for which has exacerbated the issue, is Brexit! 

 

 

This is preposterous. What about the billions of pounds that were syphoned into the pockets of their pals? 

[pablo]

4 minutes ago, Weakened Offender said:

 

This is preposterous. What about the billions of pounds that were syphoned into the pockets of their pals? 

 

What about it? 

 

Not exactly a main driver of the global cost of living crisis, is it?

 

 

[Weakened Offender]

Just now, pablo said:

 

What about it? 

 

 

You really are summed up by those 3 words. 

 

Now you crack on taking your drivel seriously. 😘

[The Mighty Thor]

17 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

Yes Brexit is a disaster. How could putting an international border across Britain and increasing the costs of imports into Scotland, mirroring Brexit and the UK/EU trading partnership possibly be a good thing for Scotland?

 

 

Ah another 2014 fireside favourite!

 

We're actually already paying significantly more for goods/services thanks to something we were promised the only way to prevent was to vote no in 2014. 

 

Are you suggesting further increases and if you are by whom and what would drive these increases? 

 

I'd point you towards Northern Irelands performance since Brexit, by not being part of the ERGs vanity project. Mind you the Junta are desperately trying to level them down by breaking international law. 

[pablo]

1 minute ago, Weakened Offender said:

 

You really are summed up by those 3 words. 

 

Now you crack on taking your drivel seriously. 😘

 

You do realise the context, yes?

 

I'm not saying it doesn't matter, I'm saying it's fairly inconsequential in regards the global cost of living crisis, which is being driven by rising inflation.

[Weakened Offender]

Just now, pablo said:

 

You do realise the context, yes?

 

I'm not saying it doesn't matter, I'm saying it's fairly inconsequential in regards the global cost of living crisis, which is being driven by rising inflation.

 

Are the Tories responsible for the billions of pounds that were syphoned into the pockets of their pals? A simple YES or no will suffice. 

[pablo]

2 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Ah another 2014 fireside favourite!

 

We're actually already paying significantly more for goods/services thanks to something we were promised the only way to prevent was to vote no in 2014. 

 

Are you suggesting further increases and if you are by whom and what would drive these increases? 

 

I'd point you towards Northern Irelands performance since Brexit, by not being part of the ERGs vanity project. Mind you the Junta are desperately trying to level them down by breaking international law. 

 

I'm not suggesting it, the London School of Economics is, between 15% and 30% possibly.

 

What's Northern Ireland got to do with anything? They have the Good Friday Agreement and access to the single market.

 

You lot thinking about starting blowing things up to try and get your own version? 

[pablo]

2 minutes ago, Weakened Offender said:

 

Are the Tories responsible for the billions of pounds that were syphoned into the pockets of their pals? A simple YES or no will suffice. 

 

Yes.

 

Still has next to nothing to do with the cost of living crisis though.

[Weakened Offender]

2 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

Yes.

 

Still has next to nothing to do with the cost of living crisis though.

 

Do you think the cost of living crisis could be eased significantly if the Tories prioritised supporting those greatly affected by the increase in prices rather than syphoning billions of pounds of public money into the pockets of their pals? 

Edited June 30, 2022 by Weakened Offender

[That thing you do]

1 minute ago, pablo said:

 

Yes.

 

Still has next to nothing to do with the cost of living crisis though.

 

2 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

Yes.

 

Still has next to nothing to do with the cost of living crisis though.

Maybe not directly but their Brexitshambles does and is exaccerbating the problem. Which is why UKs figures are worst of the developed nations.

 

It also does in the sense money to pals couldve raised whst is a shockingly low state pension rather than gift cash to shipping companies with no ships

[pablo]

1 minute ago, That thing you do said:

 

Maybe not directly but their Brexitshambles does and is exaccerbating the problem. Which is why UKs figures are worst of the developed nations.

 

It also does in the sense money to pals couldve raised whst is a shockingly low state pension rather than gift cash to shipping companies with no ships

 

Which is exactly what I said.

 

Ships that don't sail you say? Ha ha

[Ked]

1 hour ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

It’s nothing to do with the gangsters in Westminster but governing your own affairs.

Maybe I find it too simplistic to want Scotland to run it’s own affairs.

It's exactly that .

It's simply wanting that.

Even a simple life is complicated so you are spot on.

However many others want what you do .

But in a different way.

And if you're comfortable It's also simplistic to just keep things as they are.

For me I argue that they won't be so different if we govern ourselves.

But we may grow to be healthier and argue with ourselves.

I maybe am slightly opposite from you in the way I view independence.

But bottom line is you're spot on.

[pablo]

5 minutes ago, Weakened Offender said:

 

Do you think the cost of living crisis could be eased significantly if the Tories prioritised supporting those greatly affected by the increase in prices rather than syphoning billions of pounds of public money into the pockets of their pals? 

 

Yeah probably. But I don't believe breaking up the UK is the solution to it.