Should Scotland be an independent country?

[jack D and coke]

5 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

I meant I’m not getting my knickers in a twist about the issue , like I said lost the passion for Indy in the last few years so now looking at it all dispassionately and looking at the arguments for and against Indy without saltire tainted glasses . 👍 feels much better actually and more sensible . 

Hmm just looks like you’re trollling to me. 
 

[JudyJudyJudy]

9 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

Ya beauty smurfs is now the new go to name for our resident Fieldies 

I know . What a very strange man . 

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 minute ago, jack D and coke said:

Hmm just looks like you’re trollling to me. 
 

No I’ve said I completely agree that we should self govern but not convinced by the economic argument so I don’t feel it’s worth the risk to create untold misery for the many just to be Indy 

[hughesie27]

Still looking for reasons to stick with the Union folks. All I've seen so far is reasons against voting for Indy. 

[jack D and coke]

2 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

No I’ve said I completely agree that we should self govern but not convinced by the economic argument so I don’t feel it’s worth the risk to create untold misery for the many just to be Indy 

So you post silly stories and pics of people dressed up in kilts and their faces painted? 
What kind of debate is that developing would you say? 

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

4 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

So you post silly stories and pics of people dressed up in kilts and their faces painted? 
What kind of debate is that developing would you say? 

 

Well considering you have been asked repeatedly to stop using the offensive term “ hoose jocks “ you really have no room to talk really. You and  others dragged it down to the level a Long time ago . 

[Space Mackerel]

40 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Nope . Still to hear the economic argument . 

I take it there was a rock solid economic case when you left mummy and daddy’s home? 

[frankblack]

9 minutes ago, hughesie27 said:

Still looking for reasons to stick with the Union folks. All I've seen so far is reasons against voting for Indy. 

 

I think its pretty clear you have already made your mind up to vote for independence under any circumstance.

[The Real Maroonblood]

2 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

I take it there was a rock solid economic case when you left mummy and daddy’s home? 

[hughesie27]

3 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

I think its pretty clear you have already made your mind up to vote for independence under any circumstance.

Not under any circumstance. But generally yes. I'd still like to know what the other sides argument is though. I must be missing something that trumps the utter shit show that has been the UK over the last decade. 

We literally have a law breaking PM in place that we cannot get rid of.

[jack D and coke]

7 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Well considering you have been asked repeatedly to stop using the offensive term “ hoose jocks “ you really have no room to talk really. You and  others dragged it down to the level a Long time ago . 

Whos asked me? Jonesy? 
Forgive me for ignoring him on this subject these days. 
IMO If you’re going to post dung then you’ll get the dung thrown at you. 

 

[frankblack]

7 minutes ago, hughesie27 said:

Not under any circumstance. But generally yes. I'd still like to know what the other sides argument is though. I must be missing something that trumps the utter shit show that has been the UK over the last decade. 

 

The problem is we have an utter shitshow up here too.  The grass isn't always greener on the other side.

 

A mate of mine from Glasgow was through to see The Damned in Edinburgh last Wednesday and had to do a runner just after 10pm to the bus station because there are no trains back.  Not only that it cost him a taxi from the bus station when normally he could get a train to his door on the Helensburgh line.  What other parts of the UK have a worse rail system between major cities 50 miles apart?

 

Personally I think we need this government toppled and hopefully things will start to improve.

 

7 minutes ago, hughesie27 said:

We literally have a law breaking PM in place that we cannot get rid of.

 

Can't disagree there.  He is a ****ing disgrace.

 

He will be gone as soon as his backbench MPs arses start twitching over their prospects in the next general election.  I think he is one more **** up from a no confidence vote winning.

[Lone Striker]

1 hour ago, ri Alban said:

If people can't see Scotland need to get out of this mess, before it gets even worse, well, to borrow a description fro @frankblack, they're  simpletons.

Of all the arguments FOR independence, the one you've described is the worst.      "We want Indy coz we hate ra Toerays & Boris "        Wow - surely you and the other uber-nats can do better than that ?     

 

  Like... a vision for how to grow Scotland's economy to enable better services and careers for everyone.      

 

 Actually, I'd like to hear Sturgeon or  Swinney explain how  they'd achieve that.   The nearest they've come up with is joining the EU - which is more problematic now than it would have been in 2014.   

 

Just swapping one set of ego-driven politicians who dislike a neighbouring government (EU) for another  set of ego-driven politicians who dislike a different neighbouring government (WM)  isn't  enough for a lot of folk who care deeply about Scotland.

 

[i wish jj was my dad]

42 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

So you post silly stories and pics of people dressed up in kilts and their faces painted? 
What kind of debate is that developing would you say? 

 

I struggle to see the relevance of the story he posted. The subject of the story seems to be in need of help. 

What that has to do with independence defeats me

[ArcticJambo]

4 hours ago, Jeffros Furios said:

I agree with holding a vote asap as I'd imagine that's what a large chunk  of SNP voters want . 

If they don't deliver a referendum then what's the point in voting for them ?

They are shit at thier jobs and they were shit at running Edinburgh council .

Can't keep on voting for them on the never never .

 

 

Yes!

 

Would be cool with a ... Let's re-visit this in say 15-20yrs, 3 to 4 govt terms, ... so some proper politicians can have a go at governing the country.

[Dawnrazor]

1 hour ago, ri Alban said:

That is true, but I think he was trying to say is the SNP isn't on the ballot paper in an independence referendum. The SNP would have to win a general election, post independence, to carry out a manifesto. 

 

It's a referendum, not an election. I voted remain, not SNP or labour at the EUref. Not that I'm against or for EU membership, just to trigger an independence campaign.

I understand what you're saying, but in my opinion the SNP are "independence" until independence happens (or not) as no other party wants it, without the SNP persuading a majority in a referendum to vote yes, independence will never happen, legally at least, It's completely down to them.

 

[jack D and coke]

2 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

I understand what you're saying, but in my opinion the SNP are "independence" until independence happens (or not) as no other party wants it, without the SNP persuading a majority in a referendum to vote yes, independence will never happen, legally at least, It's completely down to them.

 

It wasn’t them that got people voting Yes the last time either. Salmond done a lot of work granted but there was a big grass roots movement that got a lot more people on board. 
You’d think it was all people watching Braveheart and shouting freedom wearing Jimmy wigs though if you looked at the brain deads on social media railing against it. 
If it was left to this version of the snp it would already be dead. They haven’t moved the dial an inch in 8 years. 
It won’t be them doing the ground work again next time either imo. They haven’t got it in them. 

[Dawnrazor]

16 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

It wasn’t them that got people voting Yes the last time either. Salmond done a lot of work granted but there was a big grass roots movement that got a lot more people on board. 
You’d think it was all people watching Braveheart and shouting freedom wearing Jimmy wigs though if you looked at the brain deads on social media railing against it. 
If it was left to this version of the snp it would already be dead. They haven’t moved the dial an inch in 8 years. 
It won’t be them doing the ground work again next time either imo. They haven’t got it in them. 

If not the SNP then who will get independence over the line? 

It's the only political party who want it, it needs moving forward politically if it's to happen does it not?

It's ok people saying it's the peoples will or we'll just declare independence despite the legalities but, I'd have thought, it's needs doing politically, legally and credibly and right now that's completely down to the SNP, it's down to them to make the argument and sway voters, if they can't or won't, talk of who someone will vote after independence is irrelevant, that's why I don't buy the "independence has nothing to do with the SNP" angle.

Edited June 19, 2022 by Dawnrazor

[jack D and coke]

11 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

If not the SNP then who will get independence over the line? 

It's the only political party who want it, it needs moving forward politically if it's to happen does it not?

It's ok people saying it's the peoples will or we'll just declare independence despite the legalities but, I'd have thought, it's needs doing politically, legally and credibly and right now that's completely down to the SNP, it's down to them to make the argument and sway voters, if they can't or won't, talk of who someone will vote after independence is irrelevant, that's why I don't buy the "independence has nothing to do with the SNP" angle.

Sorry im not saying it’s nothing to do with them it certainly is because they’ve got a bit weight behind them as it were, they’re the only ones who can deliver it agreed. 
I don’t like them though, or this version of them anyway. It’s only that I dislike the others even more atm. 
I couldn’t see me voting SNP again but without them its not likely to get even get close to happening that’s for sure. 

Edited June 19, 2022 by jack D and coke

[Nucky Thompson]

Smurfs. That's a beauty 

 

The SNP and their Smurf cult 

[manaliveits105]

30 minutes ago, Nucky Thompson said:

Smurfs. That's a beauty 

 

The SNP and their Smurf cult 

It was a judge so it is an official legal term now set in precedent 

[JudyJudyJudy]

2 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

It was a judge so it is an official legal term now set in precedent 

 

[Space Mackerel]

2 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

The problem is we have an utter shitshow up here too.  The grass isn't always greener on the other side.

 

A mate of mine from Glasgow was through to see The Damned in Edinburgh last Wednesday and had to do a runner just after 10pm to the bus station because there are no trains back.  Not only that it cost him a taxi from the bus station when normally he could get a train to his door on the Helensburgh line.  What other parts of the UK have a worse rail system between major cities 50 miles apart?

 

Personally I think we need this government toppled and hopefully things will start to improve.

 

 

Can't disagree there.  He is a ****ing disgrace.

 

He will be gone as soon as his backbench MPs arses start twitching over their prospects in the next general election.  I think he is one more **** up from a no confidence vote winning.

Imagine posting this about railways when Thatcher sold them all off to the lowest bidder in the 90’s. 
The Scottish Gov have just taken it back into public ownership. 

[The Mighty Thor]

3 hours ago, hughesie27 said:

Still looking for reasons to stick with the Union folks. All I've seen so far is reasons against voting for Indy. 

You won't get any. Not a single one.

 

Here's a fun fact. There has never, ever been a single country that has fought a war to join the Empire/UK. 

 

There's been literally dozens that have shed blood to leave it though. 

 

Now why would that be? 🤔

[Ulysses]

18 hours ago, Section Q said:

Took a long time and a lot of pain.

 

Are you suggesting we should have stayed where we were?

[Space Mackerel]

This is true right? Mouth D did say this? Didn’t she? 

 

 

[Weakened Offender]

13 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

You won't get any. Not a single one.

 

Here's a fun fact. There has never, ever been a single country that has fought a war to join the Empire/UK. 

 

There's been literally dozens that have shed blood to leave it though. 

 

Now why would that be? 🤔

 

Is it because the British Empire is one of the most bloodthirsty, pillaging, corrupt states that has ever been shat into creation? 

[Ulysses]

10 hours ago, Roxy Hearts said:

Sectarianism Ulysses. I'm part Irish myself as my Grandad and Great Grandmother were born there. A few stories were told! I meant the whole island anyway. I just hope all of Ireland can find real peace. 

 

If you ask a great many people, they will say that the driving factor behind sectarianism isn't religion.  Religion is merely a label to justify, promote and excuse post-colonial conflict.  Ireland is clearly a separate country with a separate social and cultural identity to Britain, and that means that national identity is a contested thing, and that in turn gives rise to sectarianism which uses faith-based labels, but which is actually grounded in national identity.  What is different about Scotland?  Same symptoms, same labels, same presentation of the illness.  Is there anything different about Scotland, or do we diagnose the root cause in Scotland to be exactly the same as in Ireland?  It's a big question - but it's not an Irish question, IYCWIM.

[The Mighty Thor]

1 minute ago, Weakened Offender said:

 

Is it because the British Empire is one of the most bloodthirsty, pillaging, corrupt states that has ever been shat into creation? 

That's certainly a reasonable train of thought. 

 

A good follow up question is 'how many countries who were told that they'd never survive if they went it alone have failed?'

 

You generally get the kind of look you'd get from a dog you were trying to explain space travel to. 

[frankblack]

3 minutes ago, Weakened Offender said:

 

Is it because the British Empire is one of the most bloodthirsty, pillaging, corrupt states that has ever been shat into creation? 

 

And Scotland was perhaps the worst of all with the wealth being earned from the slave trade etc in Edinburgh and Glasgow.

[Malinga the Swinga]

21 hours ago, Roxy Hearts said:

I don't agree. It's about Scots consciousness IMO. The SNP are part of the vehicle to get there but if folk can't see it for themselves they are either stupid or servile.

Or they don't believe the economic disruption to their lives is worth the problem.

Other than on here, independence doesn't even figure as a topic of conversation for most. 

Most folk just want to get on with their lives without constant referendums, elections and campaigning.

[Ulysses]

8 hours ago, jonesy said:

I’ll settle for a government that, for the most part, leaves me the feck alone. Whether they are based in Edinburgh or London is increasingly unimportant to me as time goes by.

 

 

I've heard words along the lines highlighted a lot in recent years.  I've heard them from American Republicans, but not Democrats.  I've heard them from NI unionists, but not centrists, nationalists or republicans.  I've heard them from socially conservative Catholics in Ireland, but not from the gay rights or reproductive rights movements, nor from left-wing politicians or trade union activists.  I've also heard them more from older than younger people, and from men more than women.  (I converse a lot about politics and government in my social circles.) That's not to say that there are social liberals, social democrats, leftists, feminists and young idealists out there who hold those views.  It's to say that they are very very hard indeed to find, which tends to leave the impression that they are rightist and conservative words.

[Malinga the Swinga]

4 hours ago, pablo said:

 

Yeh cool mate. The problem with that is there isn't majority support for breaking up the UK.

 

Nationalists don't have a monopoly on patriotism or love towards Scotland. 

 

Why would you want to do that to Scots and county as a whole? It would divisive and horrible for everyone.

Answer is simple. They believe independence will resolve everything and that anyone who doesn't support is a traitor.

[Space Mackerel]

Still waiting for a case for staying in this Union? 
 

Anyone? 

[frankblack]

23 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

Imagine posting this about railways when Thatcher sold them all off to the lowest bidder in the 90’s. 

 

Thatcher has been deid for almost 10 years and out of power for over 30.  You are scraping the barrel going down that route.

 

23 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

The Scottish Gov have just taken it back into public ownership. 

 

Yip, and made it a complete shitshow.  They had since 2019 to get their act together on that, when they announced they were taking it back under public ownership.  However, there is another thread on that topic.

[Malinga the Swinga]

1 minute ago, Ulysses said:

 

I've heard words along the lines highlighted a lot in recent years.  I've heard them from American Republicans, but not Democrats.  I've heard them from NI unionists, but not centrists, nationalists or republicans.  I've heard them from socially conservative Catholics in Ireland, but not from the gay rights or reproductive rights movements, nor from left-wing politicians or trade union activists.  I've also heard them more from older than younger people, and from men more than women.  (I converse a lot about politics and government in my social circles.) That's not to say that there are social liberals, social democrats, leftists, feminists and young idealists out there who hold those views.  It's to say that they are very very hard indeed to find, which tends to leave the impression that they are rightist and conservative words.

Maybe you need to listen more carefully.

[The Mighty Thor]

1 minute ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

Answer is simple. They believe independence will resolve everything and that anyone who doesn't support is a traitor.

There's not a single person who thinks that's the case. (I'll concede, possibly one on here)

 

 

[The Mighty Thor]

1 minute ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

Maybe you need to listen more carefully.

[Malinga the Swinga]

12 minutes ago, Weakened Offender said:

 

Is it because the British Empire is one of the most bloodthirsty, pillaging, corrupt states that has ever been shat into creation? 

I believe you will find Scotland and Scots were more than happy to play their full part in building and running the empire.

Wasn't all the big nasty English.

 

[Ulysses]

8 hours ago, kingantti1874 said:

It’s not fear mongering.  I grew up in these communities and I’ve lived, studied and worked in the west. You seem to think it will all be handshakes and moving on .. the guys are fiercely patriotic - it won’t be forgiven. 100% guaranteed that at some stage this results in violence.  
 

an economic and social disaster.

 

i

 

Does that mean that if a majority of Scots want independence, they shouldn't get it because other people might get violent?  Or does it mean that they should get it, and be prepared to deal with the consequences?

 

And in 2014 almost 45% of voters voted for independence.  Many of those "guys" were fiercely patriotic.  They probably have still not forgiven the result, and they probably still resent it.  How much violence has there been?  Are you suggesting that in some way people with a British identity have nastier and more violent tendencies than people with a Scottish identity?  Or that they have less capacity to control themselves? 

[Ulysses]

8 hours ago, dobmisterdobster said:

The Scottish Government can hold a referendum on whether to Annex the Moon. Doesn't mean anything.

 

Pointless.  Scotland has no rocket programme.

 

But if they set up a Moon Annexation Research and Analysis unit in the FM's office, be prepared for interesting times.

[Unknown user]

Just now, Ulysses said:

 

Pointless.  Scotland has no rocket programme.

 

But if they set up a Moon Annexation Research and Analysis unit in the FM's office, be prepared for interesting times.

We're simply doing military exercises near the moon.

[Space Mackerel]

9 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Thatcher has been deid for almost 10 years and out of power for over 30.  You are scraping the barrel going down that route.

 

 

Yip, and made it a complete shitshow.  They had since 2019 to get their act together on that, when they announced they were taking it back under public ownership.  However, there is another thread on that topic.

So a private company with shareholder demands is going to invest in staff for the last 2 years of its govt contract? During a pandemic when no one was allowed out.
 

Righto. 

Edited June 19, 2022 by Space Mackerel

[Malinga the Swinga]

5 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Thatcher has been deid for almost 10 years and out of power for over 30.  You are scraping the barrel going down that route.

 

 

Yip, and made it a complete shitshow.  They had since 2019 to get their act together on that, when they announced they were taking it back under public ownership.  However, there is another thread on that topic.

It's the default fall back of the convinced and desperate. Blame Thatcher, even though she ceased to be PM in 1990, 32 years ago, and there have been numerous governments since.

Even better that most of those who dredge her name up weren't even working during her years of being in power and have no idea of what it was like when unions ran country under Labour.

Power cuts during the day, interest rates that would make your eyes water, and strikes at the drop of a hat.

There's a reason she won landslide victories and why she was also popular up in Scotland.

[Malinga the Swinga]

7 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

Does that mean that if a majority of Scots want independence, they shouldn't get it because other people might get violent?  Or does it mean that they should get it, and be prepared to deal with the consequences?

 

And in 2014 almost 45% of voters voted for independence.  Many of those "guys" were fiercely patriotic.  They probably have still not forgiven the result, and they probably still resent it.  How much violence has there been?  Are you suggesting that in some way people with a British identity have nastier and more violent tendencies than people with a Scottish identity?  Or that they have less capacity to control themselves? 

No, because there is no evidence of that 

[Roxy Hearts]

31 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

Are you suggesting we should have stayed where we were?

Well done to Ireland and the Irish people. They've got the guts we lack!

[frankblack]

1 minute ago, Space Mackerel said:

Still waiting for a case for staying in this Union? 
 

Anyone? 

 

Lets see:

• Shared currency with rest of the UK, supported by BOE and access to the markets of our biggest trading partner.
• Support for a Scottish government that is running at a deficit of £36 billion.
• Protected NHS service.
• Membership of the UN, Nato, and G7.
• Access to financial markets in London, with all the jobs provided in Edinburgh and Glasgow that would go down south otherwise.

 

What exactly are the financial benefits of leaving the UK given that you wouldn't be in the EU and would lose access to the UK markets? What is your currency and where is your central bank?

 

[Ulysses]

4 hours ago, ri Alban said:

 Are Ireland and Scotland comparable, when looking at the nations before and after English rule.

 

Maybe they are.  Maybe they're not.  If they aren't, is that an argument for Scotland staying in the Union?

 

 

Edited June 19, 2022 by Ulysses

[frankblack]

3 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

So a private company with shareholder demands is going to invest in staff for the last 2 years of its govt contract? During a pandemic when no one was allowed out.
 

Righto. 

 

It was the SNP's clearly foreseeable problem to solve which they didn't - much like the ferries.

[The Mighty Thor]

Just now, Malinga the Swinga said:

It's the default fall back of the convinced and desperate. Blame Thatcher, even though she ceased to be PM in 1990, 32 years ago, and there have been numerous governments since.

Even better that most of those who dredge her name up weren't even working during her years of being in power and have no idea of what it was like when unions ran country under Labour.

Power cuts during the day, interest rates that would make your eyes water, and strikes at the drop of a hat.

There's a reason she won landslide victories and why she was also popular up in Scotland.

Whilst in power she sold off anything of any value including all of the National infrastructure and utilities. 

It's why the country is in a shit state now. 

That's a statement of fact.