Space Mackerel Posted June 20, 2022 Share Posted June 20, 2022 17 hours ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said: No, Australia is not in NATO. The clue is "North Atlantic". And I'm not having a go at anyone. I'm asking a question about Scotland's defence intentions. Its a "defacto" member Geoff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OTT Posted June 20, 2022 Share Posted June 20, 2022 22 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said: Why can't England join the EFTA, SM or EU? That would stop custom checks. Fairly certain EFTA membership is contingent on free movement of people which Boris and his pals have issues with. Tbh, I think exchanging 1 border for the removal of 27 plus access to a market of over 500m people is a good deal. Sure, we do a lot of trade with English/rest of UK, but Canada does 70% of its trade with the US and they have a border, I don't see anyone freaking out about that... We seem to be treating a mild inconvenience as an apocalyptic problem. As you quite rightly point out, England could join EFTA or enter into any number of pacts with the EU which would remove the border in the event we got independence which would remove any border issues. It actually opens up the idea that EU membership outright may not be the best solution for Scotland, beyond the membership criteria which Unionists can pick over to find fault with, EFTA is much easier to join, I think some research by Alba got back that it would be around 3 months, where as the EU would take an unspecified length of time. EFTA would likely provide greater flexibility for us to have a trade agreement with the rest of the UK too. I suppose its all hypotheticals, but its far from the end times that Unionists would have people believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XB52 Posted June 20, 2022 Share Posted June 20, 2022 10 hours ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said: As Uly says though, the key point with any kind of independence debate is one of nationality first. If Scots do not feel British at all anymore then they should vote for independence and accept any hardships that come their way. If, however, there are shared aspects of being British that people value as part of how they are governed then they should weigh those up. That's it. If a bank chooses to leave, it chooses to leave. If Tesco's don't think Scotland is profitable they will pull out. It wasn't until the 1990s that the main grocers came to Northern Ireland. We had Stewarts and Crazy Prices instead. We still managed to buy food! I love how unionists couch all their arguments in, Scotland bad, UK good. Especially the ones that love the UK so much they live thousands of miles away Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manaliveits105 Posted June 20, 2022 Share Posted June 20, 2022 10 hours ago, Malinga the Swinga said: What side will Scotland be? North with Chief Mammy Smurf dictating Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted June 20, 2022 Share Posted June 20, 2022 She’s got a brass neck I’ll give her that Womens rights ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XB52 Posted June 20, 2022 Share Posted June 20, 2022 11 hours ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said: As Uly says though, the key point with any kind of independence debate is one of nationality first. If Scots do not feel British at all anymore then they should vote for independence and accept any hardships that come their way. If, however, there are shared aspects of being British that people value as part of how they are governed then they should weigh those up. That's it. If a bank chooses to leave, it chooses to leave. If Tesco's don't think Scotland is profitable they will pull out. It wasn't until the 1990s that the main grocers came to Northern Ireland. We had Stewarts and Crazy Prices instead. We still managed to buy food! I love how unionists couch all their arguments in, Scotland bad, UK good. Especially the ones that love the UK so much they live thousands of miles away Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XB52 Posted June 20, 2022 Share Posted June 20, 2022 11 hours ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said: As Uly says though, the key point with any kind of independence debate is one of nationality first. If Scots do not feel British at all anymore then they should vote for independence and accept any hardships that come their way. If, however, there are shared aspects of being British that people value as part of how they are governed then they should weigh those up. That's it. If a bank chooses to leave, it chooses to leave. If Tesco's don't think Scotland is profitable they will pull out. It wasn't until the 1990s that the main grocers came to Northern Ireland. We had Stewarts and Crazy Prices instead. We still managed to buy food! I love how unionists couch all their arguments in, Scotland bad, UK good. Especially the ones that love the UK so much they live thousands of miles away Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted June 20, 2022 Share Posted June 20, 2022 1 hour ago, OTT said: Fairly certain EFTA membership is contingent on free movement of people which Boris and his pals have issues with. Tbh, I think exchanging 1 border for the removal of 27 plus access to a market of over 500m people is a good deal. Sure, we do a lot of trade with English/rest of UK, but Canada does 70% of its trade with the US and they have a border, I don't see anyone freaking out about that... We seem to be treating a mild inconvenience as an apocalyptic problem. As you quite rightly point out, England could join EFTA or enter into any number of pacts with the EU which would remove the border in the event we got independence which would remove any border issues. It actually opens up the idea that EU membership outright may not be the best solution for Scotland, beyond the membership criteria which Unionists can pick over to find fault with, EFTA is much easier to join, I think some research by Alba got back that it would be around 3 months, where as the EU would take an unspecified length of time. EFTA would likely provide greater flexibility for us to have a trade agreement with the rest of the UK too. I suppose its all hypotheticals, but its far from the end times that Unionists would have people believe. Good post OTT. When Scotland leaves there will be no hard border until Scotland has a referendum on the EU/SM/EFTA. By then England will have come to its senses I would imagine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted June 20, 2022 Share Posted June 20, 2022 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted June 20, 2022 Share Posted June 20, 2022 3 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said: Suck it up Scotland, back in your place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malinga the Swinga Posted June 20, 2022 Share Posted June 20, 2022 27 minutes ago, XB52 said: I love how unionists couch all their arguments in, Scotland bad, UK good. Especially the ones that love the UK so much they live thousands of miles away As opposed to the nationalists with their Tories bad, SNP good, especially the ones who love Scotland so much they live elsewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted June 20, 2022 Share Posted June 20, 2022 3 minutes ago, Smithee said: Suck it up Scotland, back in your place. Meet your Overlords, a couple of grade A posh upper class entitled ******s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted June 20, 2022 Share Posted June 20, 2022 1 minute ago, Malinga the Swinga said: As opposed to the nationalists with their Tories bad, SNP good, especially the ones who love Scotland so much they live elsewhere. Big fan of Doris Johnson, Alistair Jack and Micky Gove? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malinga the Swinga Posted June 20, 2022 Share Posted June 20, 2022 58 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said: She’s got a brass neck I’ll give her that Womens rights ? It ticks all the boxes Sturgeon looking for which is basically get her face in news. She couldn't give a **** for women or their rights and neither could the majority of her supporters. Trans is her latest pet project now that Covid isn't getting her the required publicity, the COP conference has been and gone and Ukraine is satisfied with support UK providing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted June 20, 2022 Share Posted June 20, 2022 4 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said: It ticks all the boxes Sturgeon looking for which is basically get her face in news. She couldn't give a **** for women or their rights and neither could the majority of her supporters. Trans is her latest pet project now that Covid isn't getting her the required publicity, the COP conference has been and gone and Ukraine is satisfied with support UK providing. Aye she’s no daft , I’ll give her that . Networking here , there and every where on the “ international stage “ knowing full well when Indy is over she will get an international job in some form or another , as she won’t be spear heading an Indy Scotland 🏴 that’s for sure . Those people attending this conference probably assume she’s extremely popular in her native country and she won’t want to dispel that myth . She say all the right things at this conference “ I’m a feminist to my finger tips “ she once said . I just hope there are some savvy journalists or attendees who will challenge her in regards to this and the proposed GRA . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted June 20, 2022 Share Posted June 20, 2022 4 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said: Aye she’s no daft , I’ll give her that . Networking here , there and every where on the “ international stage “ knowing full well when Indy is over she will get an international job in some form or another , as she won’t be spear heading an Indy Scotland 🏴 that’s for sure . Those people attending this conference probably assume she’s extremely popular in her native country and she won’t want to dispel that myth . She say all the right things at this conference “ I’m a feminist to my finger tips “ she once said . I just hope there are some savvy journalists or attendees who will challenge her in regards to this and the proposed GRA . You do know 99% of people who will read this post of yours will think you’re a bit daft believing this nonsense? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted June 20, 2022 Share Posted June 20, 2022 3 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said: You do know 99% of people who will read this post of yours will think you’re a bit daft believing this nonsense? Wow ! Incredible that you know how everyone will view a posting . That’s some skill. I’m impressed . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OTT Posted June 20, 2022 Share Posted June 20, 2022 40 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said: It ticks all the boxes Sturgeon looking for which is basically get her face in news. She couldn't give a **** for women or their rights and neither could the majority of her supporters. Trans is her latest pet project now that Covid isn't getting her the required publicity, the COP conference has been and gone and Ukraine is satisfied with support UK providing. I don't disagree tbh. Its kind of ironic seeing her going on a womens rights tour whilst she has a quote to the effect of 'womens concerns over trans inclusion in female only spaces are not valid'. I'm all for inclusion, but I don't think you can or should run roughshod over concerns of circa 50% of the population. But, thats nothing to do with Independence. The question of Independence is far bigger than Nicola Sturgeon or the SNP, its about building a country which is compatible with our values. I appreciate we're maybe not on the same side of the debate, but when over a period of over 10 years support for leaving the UK rises to almost half the population then that should be alarm bells that the union isn't working. You just need to look at the demographics, and see that younger people are overwhelmingly backing a yes vote. The saving grace perhaps for the no camp is that Scotland has an aging population, but then it becomes a matter of time. I genuinely think that the Union and the unionist campaign is built on shortermism, they're doing nothing to reverse the direction of travel of our nations desire for self determination and if they can't do that then it becomes when not if. If we take Gordon Browns promises for example, his vow that wasn't really delivered or his fantasies about federalism or devomax, first the no camp need to define what devo max actually is, federalism flatly isn't going to happen since that would require a willingness to change the structure of the UK which won't play to the Tory establishment. I'm really struggling here, because in 2014 when the Union was a far better prospect, Darling's campaign saw Independence rise over the course of the campaign, fair enough it fell short but it was close. Now, with very little positive spin to sell, I'm struggling to see what the no camp can say thats going to save the union tbh. I'm kinda thinking out loud with a lot of that. Basically, I think people are drawn to positivity and hope, in 2014 the no camp adopted a very negative campaign and it saw yes rise over the period. If they go negative again, the direction of travel is pretty clear BUT I don't see a positive angle they can take. I think a lot of a credibility was spent on statements like 'The only way to preserve our EU status is to vote no' etc. Browns Vow largely vague fanciful nonsense. Its very difficult to see any positivity for remaining in the Union and I don't think they have the credibility to promise change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nucky Thompson Posted June 20, 2022 Share Posted June 20, 2022 There's a few tetchy Smurfs on here tonight Wait till Boris tells Sturgeon and the fat, Hibs piece of lard to GTF 2023 ma arse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted June 20, 2022 Share Posted June 20, 2022 2 hours ago, JudyJudyJudy said: She’s got a brass neck I’ll give her that Womens rights ? You should message her and mansplain women's rights properly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted June 20, 2022 Share Posted June 20, 2022 3 hours ago, XB52 said: I love how unionists couch all their arguments in, Scotland bad, UK good. Especially the ones that love the UK so much they live thousands of miles away I didn't make any argument either way. Keep up with your paranoia though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XB52 Posted June 20, 2022 Share Posted June 20, 2022 2 hours ago, Malinga the Swinga said: It ticks all the boxes Sturgeon looking for which is basically get her face in news. She couldn't give a **** for women or their rights and neither could the majority of her supporters. Trans is her latest pet project now that Covid isn't getting her the required publicity, the COP conference has been and gone and Ukraine is satisfied with support UK providing. 😂😂😂😂 Funny and sad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XB52 Posted June 20, 2022 Share Posted June 20, 2022 4 minutes ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said: I didn't make any argument either way. Keep up with your paranoia though. Paranoia???? Saying a unionist that loves the union so much that they moved thousands of miles away makes me paranoid. Love to hear you explain that one. How come the majority of Scottish independence haters on here don't even live in our country Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted June 20, 2022 Share Posted June 20, 2022 Just now, XB52 said: Paranoia???? Saying a unionist that loves the union so much that they moved thousands of miles away makes me paranoid. Love to hear you explain that one. How come the majority of Scottish independence haters on here don't even live in our country I don't "hate" Scottish independence. The one time I had any sort of vote on Scotland's constitution, 1997, I abstained. I would have done the same in 2014 had I still been living there. Hope this helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffros Furios Posted June 20, 2022 Share Posted June 20, 2022 13 minutes ago, XB52 said: Paranoia???? Saying a unionist that loves the union so much that they moved thousands of miles away makes me paranoid. Love to hear you explain that one. How come the majority of Scottish independence haters on here don't even live in our country No different to you hiding away for months in your Ottomah baths giving money to the Kurd killing despot . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konrad von Carstein Posted June 20, 2022 Share Posted June 20, 2022 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack D and coke Posted June 20, 2022 Share Posted June 20, 2022 1 hour ago, jonesy said: Nucky, in order to keep @jack D and coke happy I have to have a wee dig at you. In order to do so, could you please post something else, like, y'know, something that's not going to happen. Good lad. Youve got to keep the pretence up👍🏼 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mighty Thor Posted June 20, 2022 Share Posted June 20, 2022 21 minutes ago, jonesy said: 🏴🇪🇺🇵🇸 Reveal hidden contents 🇬🇧🇮🇱 You really need one of these in your pro-indy disguise 🏳️🌈 Otherwise folks will think your a bit gammony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses Posted June 20, 2022 Share Posted June 20, 2022 13 hours ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said: You don't need a hard border for customs checks. Sturgeon wants Scotland to be part of the European single market. England isn't part of it. Ergo, customs checks The Scotland Protocol? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses Posted June 20, 2022 Share Posted June 20, 2022 11 hours ago, Smithee said: There's no reason to assume there'll be customs control at the border In fairness, that's pretty much what the Brexiteers said in 2016, but that's not how it turned out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses Posted June 20, 2022 Share Posted June 20, 2022 7 hours ago, Space Mackerel said: Why can't England join the EFTA, SM or EU? That would stop custom checks. Why should England do that if it doesn't want to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naisys Tackle Posted June 20, 2022 Share Posted June 20, 2022 The answer imo is of course. If we fail, we fail our own way. We become independent it opens up all avenues to us. We are a very kind giving nation. Part of Nato we will be backed and get back in the EU to help us with our best Universities in the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naisys Tackle Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 Saying that, I'm anything but anti-english. My posting will show this. I know academically it holds us back not being in the EU and it's gutting to see so many amazing people leave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 44 minutes ago, Ulysses said: The Scotland Protocol? Looking forward to a Scottish Jim Allister... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i wish jj was my dad Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 10 hours ago, JudyJudyJudy said: Wow ! Incredible that you know how everyone will view a posting . That’s some skill. I’m impressed . It's dripping with personal bitterness. I'm not her greatest fan but you have an obsession with her that demeans and undermines any argument you might have. I don't think you are stupid but your posts about her are obsessed and bitter. I think on balance she has advanced the equalities agenda more than any PM or FM in my lifetime and I can't imagine that pre 1970s it had much traction. I am personally a bit lost with the whole gender debate so I can't really get into it but she is quite rightly trying to promote scotland abroad. Massively important post brexit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 5 hours ago, Ulysses said: In fairness, that's pretty much what the Brexiteers said in 2016, but that's not how it turned out. I'm not trying to predict the future, just saying that there's no reason to state the worst case scenario as fact. I'm not aware of there ever being customs controls between Scotland and England, and as someone who favours a close relationship with our neighbours I don't want to see it happen either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 10 hours ago, Nucky Thompson said: There's a few tetchy Smurfs on here tonight Wait till Boris tells Sturgeon and the fat, Hibs piece of lard to GTF 2023 ma arse 😂😂 11 hours ago, Malinga the Swinga said: It ticks all the boxes Sturgeon looking for which is basically get her face in news. She couldn't give a **** for women or their rights and neither could the majority of her supporters. Trans is her latest pet project now that Covid isn't getting her the required publicity, the COP conference has been and gone and Ukraine is satisfied with support UK providing. 👍👍👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dazo Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 21 minutes ago, Smithee said: I'm not trying to predict the future, just saying that there's no reason to state the worst case scenario as fact. I'm not aware of there ever being customs controls between Scotland and England, and as someone who favours a close relationship with our neighbours I don't want to see it happen either. So you want to break up a union but keep the benefits of the union that suit you ? Seems fair enough I’m sure the rUK will be happy to negotiate under those terms. 😂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manaliveits105 Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 8 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said: 😂😂 👍👍👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 21 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said: It's dripping with personal bitterness. I'm not her greatest fan but you have an obsession with her that demeans and undermines any argument you might have. I don't think you are stupid but your posts about her are obsessed and bitter. I think on balance she has advanced the equalities agenda more than any PM or FM in my lifetime and I can't imagine that pre 1970s it had much traction. I am personally a bit lost with the whole gender debate so I can't really get into it but she is quite rightly trying to promote scotland abroad. Massively important post brexit I’m pulling her up regarding her hypocrisy about attending a conference regarding womens rights abroad , whilst at home ignoring womens groups and their genuine concerns about the GRA . That’s not being “ obsessive “ that’s what any voter has a right and duty to do . By attending these conferences she’s raising her profile , simple as that . The SNP is not the only party who have “ advanced “ the equalities agenda . All parties have . Every single one , as they knew they had to due to various reasons . Other countries were doing so . The cultural / society landscape was changing. . . It made political sense . Even if not a massive vote winner , it certainly won the virtue signalling kudos . Something the SNP are masters of . Now the tide is turning regarding trans issues ( recent barring if trans swimmers decision ) The SNP may need to rethink their GRA policy . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 9 minutes ago, Dazo said: So you want to break up a union but keep the benefits of the union that suit you ? Seems fair enough I’m sure the rUK will be happy to negotiate under those terms. 😂 Yes, why wouldn't I want the best for my country? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 Anyway put your money where your mooth is. !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Montpelier Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 7 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said: Anyway put your money where your mooth is. !! Im more amused by the banner headline "SNP urge Nato". Like Nato remotely care what Elsie, Bunter , Paddy Harvie et al think . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mighty Thor Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 8 hours ago, jonesy said: As the hooker said the leper, thanks for the tip. BTW, what's the field jock equivalent of a gammon? An alarming rise in 'if only non-Scots had been disenfranchised in 2014, we'd have won' type posts on here recently. White pudding? Beats me 🤷♂️ I'm sure we've agreed on this previously. As far as I'm concerned those residing in Scotland and who are entitled to vote should decide what happens to Scotland. Not anyone else, those it will directly affect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dazo Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 1 hour ago, Smithee said: Yes, why wouldn't I want the best for my country? Of course you should. It’s just when I suggested the same over brexit you and the other UK haters said why should the eu allow us any benefits since we want to leave. Just thought you’d be okay with rUK having the same stance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FWJ Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 I wish there was a thread - or even a site - where you could go and have a reasoned, maybe yes maybe no discussion about what will probably be the biggest political decision any of us will make in our lifetime. You know, a place where people can think about the pros and cons, the opportunities and difficulties than would lie ahead. Instead we’ve got this. Welcome to the internet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Real Maroonblood Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 50 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said: Beats me 🤷♂️ I'm sure we've agreed on this previously. As far as I'm concerned those residing in Scotland and who are entitled to vote should decide what happens to Scotland. Not anyone else, those it will directly affect. As long as there’s a certain time of residency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dazo Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 56 minutes ago, FWJ said: I wish there was a thread - or even a site - where you could go and have a reasoned, maybe yes maybe no discussion about what will probably be the biggest political decision any of us will make in our lifetime. You know, a place where people can think about the pros and cons, the opportunities and difficulties than would lie ahead. Instead we’ve got this. Welcome to the internet. In our life time you say ? That should maybe be a key point of any discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Dazo said: Of course you should. It’s just when I suggested the same over brexit you and the other UK haters said why should the eu allow us any benefits since we want to leave. Just thought you’d be okay with rUK having the same stance. The only precedent we have for a land border between the UK and a former part of the UK is the border between NI and the RoI - no customs checks. In the many centuries of a land border between Scotland and England - no customs checks. There's no reason to assume there would be customs checks Edited June 21, 2022 by Smithee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dazo Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 3 minutes ago, Smithee said: The only precedent we have for a land border between the UK and a former part of the UK is the border better NI and the RoI - no customs checks. I'm the many centuries of a land border between Scotland and England - no customs checks. There's no reason to assume there would be customs checks I’m not assuming anything other than don’t expect rUK to pander to what’s best for Scotland if independence was to happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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