Should Scotland be an independent country?

[frankblack]

9 minutes ago, pablo said:

What incentive is there for the UK to grant a section 30 when most people don't want another referendum?

 

I genuinely don't get it? Surely it makes more sense to win by 60/40 in several, maybe even 10 years time than either winning or losing one by a couple of points in 18 months? It would be carnage. 

 

I think it would be a clear-cut No vote given all the factors in play - Covid recovery, war in Europe + cost of living crisis before you even scrutinise the detail of the SNP plans.

 

Only a simpleton would vote Yes without being told what you are getting.

[hughesie27]

What is the current argument for sticking in the Union? Not reason NOT to vote for independence. What is the pulling factors for sticking?

 

 

[Unknown user]

Just now, hughesie27 said:

What is the current argument for sticking in the Union? Not reason NOT to vote for independence. What is the pulling factors for sticking?

 

People say we'll be worse off under independence but it's all guesswork.

 

We will be worse off than now remaining in the union, that's a cold, hard fact.

[Space Mackerel]

5 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

I think it would be a clear-cut No vote given all the factors in play - Covid recovery, war in Europe + cost of living crisis before you even scrutinise the detail of the SNP plans.

 

Only a simpleton would vote Yes without being told what you are getting.

So why is Michael coke heid Gove hiding the results of the polling? 

[Lord Montpelier]

9 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

You need to get out in the Scottish countryside more, Scotland is heaving with fresh produce, fish, seafood and meat. 

Lol if only you knew where I lived Spacey I'd add a lot more to that list

[Ainsley Harriott]

4 minutes ago, hughesie27 said:

What is the current argument for sticking in the Union? Not reason NOT to vote for independence. What is the pulling factors for sticking?

 

 

Membership of the UN, national security and NATO membership, the fact the rest of the UK is Scotland's biggest trading partner, currency, pensions and international trade agreements.

[Ainsley Harriott]

2 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

People say we'll be worse off under independence but it's all guesswork.

 

We will be worse off than now remaining in the union, that's a cold, hard fact.

The Nationalists have no currency or fiscal policy so where exactly are the hard cold facts?

[Space Mackerel]

Just now, Ainsley Harriott said:

The Nationalists have no currency or fiscal policy so where exactly are the hard cold facts?

http://stuartmackintoshauthor.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/SM_NBS_PAPER-22_Final-no-embargo.pdf

[Unknown user]

1 minute ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

The Nationalists have no currency or fiscal policy so where exactly are the hard cold facts?

The cold hard facts are that the Tories are ****ing the UK into the ground and England will continue to vote for them.

 

People act like a country's never gained independence before ffs.

Edited June 19, 2022 by Smithee

[Ainsley Harriott]

Just now, Smithee said:

The cold hard facts are that the Tories are ****ing the UK into the ground and England will continue to vote for them.

 

People act like a country's never gained independence before ffs.

Thats not a fact just an opinion 

[Unknown user]

16 minutes ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

Thats not a fact just an opinion 

Ignoring the independence debate, this is a statement -we will be worse off than now in the future.

 

As much as any future thing can be treated as fact in this whole conversation, this is one we all know - we will be worse off in the future.

[Space Mackerel]

I see Fat Doris has forced The Times to drop a major scoop today. 
 

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/simon-walters-i-stand-by-my-johnson-scoop/

[i wish jj was my dad]

1 hour ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

It's not though it's a fact. You and your nationalist half wit bregade can't handle facts so dismiss them as trolling it's pathetic.

Exactly the point I was making.  Describing folk who hold a different point of view as nationalist half wits rather than advancing an argument of your own does you no credit. 

[i wish jj was my dad]

56 minutes ago, hughesie27 said:

What is the current argument for sticking in the Union? Not reason NOT to vote for independence. What is the pulling factors for sticking?

 

 

Ask Ainsley. 

[pablo]

47 minutes ago, hughesie27 said:

What is the current argument for sticking in the Union? Not reason NOT to vote for independence. What is the pulling factors for sticking?

 

 

 

The burden of proof lies with those advocating Independence and changing the status quo. Surely?

[Konrad von Carstein]

2 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

The burden of proof lies with those advocating Independence and changing the status quo. Surely?

I have nothing type post

[The Mighty Thor]

58 minutes ago, hughesie27 said:

What is the current argument for sticking in the Union? Not reason NOT to vote for independence. What is the pulling factors for sticking?

 

 

Apparently;

Covid recovery - made significantly worse by Spaffers handling of it and the money he spunked to his mates/cronies/donors.

War in Europe - which would have zero impact whether Scotland was independent or not

Cost of living crisis - see point 1. Biggest drop in economic output of the G20 during covid, worst recovery since. Self imposed economic sanctions of the Unionist utopia of Empire 2.0 (but you get a Blue passport)

All of which have to do with the Tories handling of point 1. But they'll tell you it's all about point 2.

 

Then something wibble about simpletons. 

 

 

[Unknown user]

6 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

The burden of proof lies with those advocating Independence and changing the status quo. Surely?

If this was a court of law maybe!

 

Why do you think Scotland shouldn't have a government that exists for Scotland?

[pablo]

Just now, Konrad von Carstein said:

I have nothing type post

 

That's a bit unfair KvC.

 

I read recently what I thought was quite a decent summary of the situation.

 

If you imagine that the electorate is positioned on three tectonic plates, you will have a third on the UK at any cost plate, a third on the Secession at any cost plate and the third in the middle with softer views.

 

Given that the constitution is a reserved matter, surely it's incumbent on the Secession side to encourage as many over to their side as possible?

 

That's how I see it anyway.

[The Mighty Thor]

56 minutes ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

Thats not a fact just an opinion 

😂

Worst economy in the developed world. Marginally ahead in performance terms of Putin's Russia. 

That's not opinion. It's just counting. 

 

Stick to the shite trolling, because when you veer out your safe space you make a beard of yourself. 

[Unknown user]

5 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

😂

Worst economy in the developed world. Marginally ahead in performance terms of Putin's Russia. 

That's not opinion. It's just counting. 

 

Stick to the shite trolling, because when you veer out your safe space you make a beard of yourself. 

Not to mention the government telling us we'll be worse off.

[Konrad von Carstein]

9 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

That's a bit unfair KvC.

 

I read recently what I thought was quite a decent summary of the situation.

 

If you imagine that the electorate is positioned on three tectonic plates, you will have a third on the UK at any cost plate, a third on the Secession at any cost plate and the third in the middle with softer views.

 

Given that the constitution is a reserved matter, surely it's incumbent on the Secession side to encourage as many over to their side as possible?

 

That's how I see it anyway.

From that analogy I'd say that Separatists AND Unionists both need to convince the ambivilant/unsure plate, no?

[ri Alban]

17 hours ago, Dawnrazor said:

It is about the SNP, without them persuading enough people to vote for it it will never happen, they're the only path to independence just now.

That is true, but I think he was trying to say is the SNP isn't on the ballot paper in an independence referendum. The SNP would have to win a general election, post independence, to carry out a manifesto. 

 

It's a referendum, not an election. I voted remain, not SNP or labour at the EUref. Not that I'm against or for EU membership, just to trigger an independence campaign.

[pablo]

1 minute ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

From that analogy I'd say that Separatists AND Unionists both need to convince the ambivilant/unsure plate, no?

 

Well not really, in my opinion. The constitution is reserved. Arguably the SNP could continue to win every Scottish election from now until kingdom come and the UK could always say no. Unpalatable as that will be to some.

 

Now, if there was 60%+ in favour of breaking up the UK over a sustained period of time. Then it would be interesting. 

 

How do you get there and what's the plan? That's the question for me.

 

 

[ri Alban]

If people can't see Scotland need to get out of this mess, before it gets even worse, well, to borrow a description fro @frankblack, they're  simpletons.

[Unknown user]

Just now, pablo said:

 

Well not really, in my opinion. The constitution is reserved. Arguably the SNP could continue to win every Scottish election from now until kingdom come and the UK could always say no. Unpalatable as that will be to some.

 

Now, if there was 60%+ in favour of breaking up the UK over a sustained period of time. Then it would be interesting. 

 

How do you get there and what's the plan? That's the question for me.

 

Great

[ri Alban]

3 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

Well not really, in my opinion. The constitution is reserved. Arguably the SNP could continue to win every Scottish election from now until kingdom come and the UK could always say no. Unpalatable as that will be to some.

 

Now, if there was 60%+ in favour of breaking up the UK over a sustained period of time. Then it would be interesting. 

 

How do you get there and what's the plan? That's the question for me.

 

 

If WM says no. The SNP only need to declare independence if they win a majority of Mps at the next General election. That is up to WM. Referendum or UDI? 

Edited June 19, 2022 by ri Alban

[ri Alban]

People do realise, this is a voluntary union? Scotland can go, whenever it choses. England don't own Scotland. And if Boris/Wm want to suggest they do, they're only gonnae turn it to violence. If there's no route to independence via democracy, there's only violence.

[Ainsley Harriott]

21 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

😂

Worst economy in the developed world. Marginally ahead in performance terms of Putin's Russia. 

That's not opinion. It's just counting. 

 

Stick to the shite trolling, because when you veer out your safe space you make a beard of yourself. 

According to the International Monetary Fund, these are the highest ranking countries in the world in nominal GDP:

United States (GDP: 20.49 trillion)

China (GDP: 13.4 trillion)

Japan: (GDP: 4.97 trillion)

Germany: (GDP: 4.00 trillion)

United Kingdom: (GDP: 2.83 trillion)

France: (GDP: 2.78 trillion)

 

That right is it? I think you should edcuate yourself before making silly statements and accusing others of trolling.

[pablo]

1 minute ago, ri Alban said:

If WM says no. The SNP only need to declare independence if they win a majority of Mps at the next General election. That is up to WM. Referendum or UDI? 

 

Yeh cool mate. The problem with that is there isn't majority support for breaking up the UK.

 

Nationalists don't have a monopoly on patriotism or love towards Scotland. 

 

Why would you want to do that to Scots and county as a whole? It would divisive and horrible for everyone.

[joondalupjambo]

Another vote will happen.

Campaign Project Fear 2 will happen.

Scots will bottle it again and The Union will remain in place by a few percentage points.

 

Press button 1 agree or button 2 for disagree.

 

It is like Britain's Got Talent now with everyone thinking they are right without even having an in-depth thought about it all.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[frankblack]

11 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

If people can't see Scotland need to get out of this mess, before it gets even worse, well, to borrow a description fro @frankblack, they're  simpletons.

 

The problem is that everything points to independence making things far worse than whatever shitshow Westminster can conjure.  You only have to look at the state of our trains, ferries, NHS, education, etc - never mind the shitshow they and their green mates forced onto Edinburgh.

[frankblack]

1 hour ago, Space Mackerel said:

So why is Michael coke heid Gove hiding the results of the polling? 

 

Gove and his Tory mates don't represent me, and whatever disaster of an interview he did it just points to the fact his government is on its way out.

[ri Alban]

16 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

I'm neither agreeing nor disagreeing with you here...

 

 

...Ireland (most of it, at any rate) ****ed off from British control about 100 years ago.  We were one of Europe's basket cases when we did so, because our economy, political system and culture had still not recovered from the devastating effects of many of our population starving to death or emigrating to avoid doing so 75 years before that.

 

But in the opinion of many the true beginning of our independence project was when we joined the first European Exchange Rate Mechanism in 1979.  We were still the most backward economy in Western Europe at the time.

 

We now have the highest life expectancy in Europe.  We are ranked as one of the top 10 countries on the planet in terms of human development.  We have the highest percentage on Earth of the school population staying in education until they reach adulthood.  We are ranked as the third most peaceful country on the planet, and international benchmarking rates us as having one of the 3-4 happiest societies in the world.  All of this despite the fact that, like many countries in the developed world, we could do better in terms of healthcare, housing, the environment and the cost of living, and we could be so much better at protecting and developing our own historical language and associated culture.

 

So much to do.  But so much better than we were.  Not a sideshow.  Not a vassal.  Not forever in someone else's shadow.

 

I'm not suggesting for a moment that this is the right path, the appropriate strategy, or even the most desirable outcome for Scots.  Suits us, though.

 Are Ireland and Scotland comparable, when looking at the nations before and after English rule.

[il Duce McTarkin]

13 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

If WM says no. The SNP only need to declare independence if they win a majority of Mps at the next General election. That is up to WM. Referendum or UDI? 

 

I like the sound of UDI to be honest.

[The Mighty Thor]

8 minutes ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

According to the International Monetary Fund, these are the highest ranking countries in the world in nominal GDP:

United States (GDP: 20.49 trillion)

China (GDP: 13.4 trillion)

Japan: (GDP: 4.97 trillion)

Germany: (GDP: 4.00 trillion)

United Kingdom: (GDP: 2.83 trillion)

France: (GDP: 2.78 trillion)

 

That right is it? I think you should edcuate yourself before making silly statements and accusing others of trolling.

You missed the news this last week or so then? 

 

https://www.ft.com/content/ee2ce542-eb19-48c1-9a1d-57a8200a47ae

 

Like I said. It's just counting, oh and of course reading 👍

 

Put up a picture of the Queen. That'll sort it. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

Oh my , oh dear and ffs all combined 

 

 

 

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/crime/sheriff-labels-face-painted-homophobic-letter-writer-who-targeted-nicola-sturgeon-a-smurf-3737057?fbclid=IwAR0D-bZQJhtrrSOK9ejeqm5TOkO_HHWR8V7CaCN_3JrDzdQX6PuKwBI6az8&fs=e&s=cl

[JudyJudyJudy]

7 minutes ago, Dirk McClaymore said:

 

I like the sound of UDI to be honest.

Better than an STI I suppose 

[Ainsley Harriott]

7 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

You missed the news this last week or so then? 

 

https://www.ft.com/content/ee2ce542-eb19-48c1-9a1d-57a8200a47ae

 

Like I said. It's just counting, oh and of course reading 👍

 

Put up a picture of the Queen. That'll sort it. 

You said it was the worst economy which it's not and made no mention of economic growth. Like you say it's just reading and counting 

[JudyJudyJudy]

18 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

People do realise, this is a voluntary union? Scotland can go, whenever it choses. England don't own Scotland. And if Boris/Wm want to suggest they do, they're only gonnae turn it to violence. If there's no route to independence via democracy, there's only violence.

There is a route to Indy , by a democratically agreed Ref . Not by a certain percentage of the population taking up arms . That’s anarchy 

[Ainsley Harriott]

3 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Oh my , oh dear and ffs all combined 

 

 

 

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/crime/sheriff-labels-face-painted-homophobic-letter-writer-who-targeted-nicola-sturgeon-a-smurf-3737057?fbclid=IwAR0D-bZQJhtrrSOK9ejeqm5TOkO_HHWR8V7CaCN_3JrDzdQX6PuKwBI6az8&fs=e&s=cl

You yes yet

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 minute ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

You yes yet

Nope . Still to hear the economic argument . 

[frankblack]

1 minute ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Nope . Still to hear the economic argument . 

 

The clear fact is there isn't one.  They will continue to avoid giving any details on that until the last possible time when they hope their voters won't notice it getting ripped for arse paper by any competent interviewer on TV.

[Ainsley Harriott]

Just now, frankblack said:

 

The clear fact is there isn't one.  They will continue to avoid giving any details on that until the last possible time when they hope their voters won't notice it getting ripped for arse paper by any competent interviewer on TV.

Then they will blame the BBC again 

[jack D and coke]

1 minute ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

There is a route to Indy , by a democratically agreed Ref . Not by a certain percentage of the population taking up arms . That’s anarchy 

I think you said yourself you were dressing up like the side of a shortbread tin the last time. What a beamer…None of us were James. 
Personally I’d need to start a moncler or gucci for indy type group not kilts and Jimmy wigs. 
 

For someone who isn’t going to get involved your some case  

 

[frankblack]

2 minutes ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

Then they will blame the BBC again 

 

It won't be the Scottish media asking those questions, though because they seem afraid to go there.  Whenever you get the big hitters down south interviewing them on this they don't pull any punches as shown in the past with the likes of Andrew Neil ripping Sturgeon apart.

[The Mighty Thor]

14 minutes ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

You said it was the worst economy which it's not and made no mention of economic growth. Like you say it's just reading and counting 

Worst performing economy of the G20 (developed nations) apart from Russia who are under sanctions imposed on them, while we imposed sanctions on ourselves. 

 

Is that your change of tack? 'We're better than Russia'

Stick that on the side of a bus for better together 2.0 😂

[manaliveits105]

23 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Oh my , oh dear and ffs all combined 

 

 

 

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/crime/sheriff-labels-face-painted-homophobic-letter-writer-who-targeted-nicola-sturgeon-a-smurf-3737057?fbclid=IwAR0D-bZQJhtrrSOK9ejeqm5TOkO_HHWR8V7CaCN_3JrDzdQX6PuKwBI6az8&fs=e&s=cl

Ya beauty smurfs is now the new go to name for our resident Fieldies 

[JudyJudyJudy]

8 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

I think you said yourself you were dressing up like the side of a shortbread tin the last time. What a beamer…None of us were James. 
Personally I’d need to start a moncler or gucci for indy type group not kilts and Jimmy wigs. 
 

For someone who isn’t going to get involved your some case  

 

I meant I’m not getting my knickers in a twist about the issue , like I said lost the passion for Indy in the last few years so now looking at it all dispassionately and looking at the arguments for and against Indy without saltire tainted glasses . 👍 feels much better actually and more sensible . 

[Lord Montpelier]

40 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

People do realise, this is a voluntary union? Scotland can go, whenever it choses. England don't own Scotland. And if Boris/Wm want to suggest they do, they're only gonnae turn it to violence. If there's no route to independence via democracy, there's only violence.

Out of interest, specifically who do you think will turn to violence? I like to think my fellow countrymen and women whilst we can disagree in debate, are all sensible enough not to get the pitch forks out.