Should Scotland be an independent country?

[Malinga the Swinga]

12 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

There's not a single person who thinks that's the case. (I'll concede, possibly one on here)

 

 

So we are stupid, servile, possibly inclined to violence, being aligned to US republicans, old conservative catholics (definitely a new one), Irish unionists, semi fascists, House jocks but not traitors.

That's good to know.

[jack D and coke]

18 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

I've heard words along the lines highlighted a lot in recent years.  I've heard them from American Republicans, but not Democrats.  I've heard them from NI unionists, but not centrists, nationalists or republicans.  I've heard them from socially conservative Catholics in Ireland, but not from the gay rights or reproductive rights movements, nor from left-wing politicians or trade union activists.  I've also heard them more from older than younger people, and from men more than women.  (I converse a lot about politics and government in my social circles.) That's not to say that there are social liberals, social democrats, leftists, feminists and young idealists out there who hold those views.  It's to say that they are very very hard indeed to find, which tends to leave the impression that they are rightist and conservative words.

I think this post is what you call bang on cash ☺️

[The Mighty Thor]

2 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Lets see:

• Shared currency with rest of the UK, supported by BOE and access to the markets of our biggest trading partner.
• Support for a Scottish government that is running at a deficit of £36 billion.
• Protected NHS service.
• Membership of the UN, Nato, and G7.
• Access to financial markets in London, with all the jobs provided in Edinburgh and Glasgow that would go down south otherwise.

 

What exactly are the financial benefits of leaving the UK given that you wouldn't be in the EU and would lose access to the UK markets? What is your currency and where is your central bank?

 

Is that it? 

 

Compelling stuff. 

 

Two standouts;

 

Protected NHS? For how long? 

 

Support for a Scottish Government running a 36 billion deficit?

 

Tell us about this 36 billion deficit please? 

 

Actually I'll throw in this access to UK markets pish. How does that work?

[frankblack]

1 minute ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Whilst in power she sold off anything of any value including all of the National infrastructure and utilities. 

It's why the country is in a shit state now. 

That's a statement of fact. 

 

Were the railways running efficiently before she sold them off compared to European countries like Germany or is that wishful thinking?

 

The issues with energy just now are made worse due to lack of investment by numerous governments - both Scottish and WM into Nuclear.

[Ulysses]

17 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

Maybe you need to listen more carefully.

 

I listen carefully - I'm listening to friends, neighbours and colleagues, and that's just how they roll.   Your joints are probably creaking with age as well. 

[Space Mackerel]

3 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Lets see:

• Shared currency with rest of the UK, supported by BOE and access to the markets of our biggest trading partner.
• Support for a Scottish government that is running at a deficit of £36 billion.
• Protected NHS service.
• Membership of the UN, Nato, and G7.
• Access to financial markets in London, with all the jobs provided in Edinburgh and Glasgow that would go down south otherwise.

 

What exactly are the financial benefits of leaving the UK given that you wouldn't be in the EU and would lose access to the UK markets? What is your currency and where is your central bank?

 

1. You haven’t the slightest clue about Fiat currency and central banking

2. You haven’t the slightest clue about government borrowing.

3 The NHS is Devolved and is funded entirely from the “block grant”

4. Scotland will NOT be a member of the UN or NATO? 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

5. You haven’t the slightest clue about international banking. Maybe take out an ISA. 

[The Mighty Thor]

Just now, Malinga the Swinga said:

So we are stupid, servile, possibly inclined to violence, being aligned to US republicans, old conservative catholics (definitely a new one), Irish unionists, semi fascists, House jocks but not traitors.

That's good to know.

Ulysses put that theory out there. 

 

Engage with him on it. 

 

Top tip though, your ladybird book of geopolitics probably won't help you. 

[Ulysses]

12 minutes ago, Smithee said:

We're simply doing military exercises near the moon.

 

Special ops?

[Ulysses]

Just now, The Mighty Thor said:

Ulysses put that theory out there. 

 

Engage with him on it. 

 

Top tip though, your ladybird book of geopolitics probably won't help you. 

 

No, with all due respect, Ulysses didn't. 

[manaliveits105]

49 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

 

[jack D and coke]

15 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

Does that mean that if a majority of Scots want independence, they shouldn't get it because other people might get violent?  Or does it mean that they should get it, and be prepared to deal with the consequences?

 

And in 2014 almost 45% of voters voted for independence.  Many of those "guys" were fiercely patriotic.  They probably have still not forgiven the result, and they probably still resent it.  How much violence has there been?  Are you suggesting that in some way people with a British identity have nastier and more violent tendencies than people with a Scottish identity?  Or that they have less capacity to control themselves? 

What the dafties forget is they started the last one with indy around 20% percent and this one will start roughly neck and neck. 
They reckon Johnson refusing the section 30 could add 5% to the Yes off the bat. 
Their erses will be knitting buttons if this kicks off. I guarantee that😀

[Malinga the Swinga]

5 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

Well done to Ireland and the Irish people. They've got the guts we lack!

You suggesting we should have an armed insurrection and wage a campaign of indiscriminate bombing throughout Scotland and England? After all, what's plain murder if you get what you want at the end of it. Thought that was more of a Celtic attitude but good to know what you believe.

[frankblack]

1 minute ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Is that it? 

 

Compelling stuff. 

 

Two standouts;

 

Protected NHS? For how long? 

 

Do you have evidence to suggest otherwise?

 

1 minute ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Support for a Scottish Government running a 36 billion deficit?

 

Tell us about this 36 billion deficit please? 

 

The link I found for 2020/2021 was: https://www.statista.com/statistics/350687/scottish-revenue-budget-balance/

 

1 minute ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Actually I'll throw in this access to UK markets pish. How does that work?

 

Tarriff free trade with the rest of the UK for starters. 

 

Things would look pretty bleak for Scotland outside the EU and UK for an initial period and god knows how much damage that would cause.

[Roxy Hearts]

30 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

If you ask a great many people, they will say that the driving factor behind sectarianism isn't religion.  Religion is merely a label to justify, promote and excuse post-colonial conflict.  Ireland is clearly a separate country with a separate social and cultural identity to Britain, and that means that national identity is a contested thing, and that in turn gives rise to sectarianism which uses faith-based labels, but which is actually grounded in national identity.  What is different about Scotland?  Same symptoms, same labels, same presentation of the illness.  Is there anything different about Scotland, or do we diagnose the root cause in Scotland to be exactly the same as in Ireland?  It's a big question - but it's not an Irish question, IYCWIM.

If only there were more level headed people like you around in both our countries we might get somewhere!

 

British types not including the sectarianism element tend to be more aggressive and less likely to be debate, I find.

[Malinga the Swinga]

4 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

I think this post is what you call bang on cash ☺️

I think it is utter nonsense by someone who, despite having no skin in the game, can't stop himself from stirring things up.

[Ulysses]

9 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

No, because there is no evidence of that 

 

It was @kingantti1874who said that some fiercely patriotic guys could get violent.  I'm asking him to elaborate on that.  If you think he's wrong, you could say something to him about it - he's the one suggesting things could get violent, not me.

[Malinga the Swinga]

Just now, Roxy Hearts said:

If only there were more level headed people like you around in both our countries we might get somewhere!

 

British types not including the sectarianism element tend to be more aggressive and less likely to be debate, I find.

Yeah, it was the British types who carried out Birmingham, Manchester, London, Brighton and Warrington atrocities while those peaceful Irish chaps had nothing to do with it.

 

[frankblack]

4 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

1. You haven’t the slightest clue about Fiat currency and central banking

2. You haven’t the slightest clue about government borrowing.

3 The NHS is Devolved and is funded entirely from the “block grant”

4. Scotland will NOT be a member of the UN or NATO? 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

5. You haven’t the slightest clue about international banking. Maybe take out an ISA. 

 

You haven't the slightest clue about how Scotland could survive as an independent country because your party refuses to tell us how they would do it, which is telling.

 

This block grant for the NHS would be from Westminster?  Good luck getting that after independence.

 

Scotland will lose all the UK's international memberships automatically.  UN, Nato, G7 etc - as they are in the UK's name.  Do you really think you will inherit them? How naive can you get?

 

Actually I know far more about finance that you do and some very senior people in Edinburgh financial services think the Nats are a joke.  Cowboys with no plans.  It will be alright on the night types.

[Ulysses]

12 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

Well done to Ireland and the Irish people. They've got the guts we lack!

 

They were different times, of course, over a century ago.  And for a variety of historical reasons it took us a long time to actually capitalise on being independent. But we wouldn't and couldn't go back, and we'd simply never have gotten anywhere near where we are today if we'd remained a British colony.  I'm not saying it's the right course for Scotland; I'm just saying what independence made possible for us.

[The Mighty Thor]

1 minute ago, frankblack said:

 

Were the railways running efficiently before she sold them off compared to European countries like Germany or is that wishful thinking?

 

The issues with energy just now are made worse due to lack of investment by numerous governments - both Scottish and WM into Nuclear.

Are they running better now? 

I've just been in Italy where I could go from Florence to Bologna for less than I can go from North Berwick to Waverley. And they had a one day strike last Friday. Integrated state owned networks. Hard to do when you've sold it off to your donors for shitpence. 

On the Nuclear front the government don't build them. Hinkley point is EDF. The agreed contracted tarrif set by the government is eye-watering as in PFI level eye-watering. 

Furthermore the EPR type reactors are proving to be difficult to build (EDF have taken 16 years to get Flamanville to ready) and their life cycle is not as advertised. 

[Space Mackerel]

Just now, frankblack said:

 

You haven't the slightest clue about how Scotland could survive as an independent country because your party refuses to tell us how they would do it, which is telling.

 

This block grant for the NHS would be from Westminster?  Good luck getting that after independence.

 

Scotland will lose all the UK's international memberships automatically.  UN, Nato, G7 etc - as they are in the UK's name.  Do you really think you will inherit them? How naive can you get?

 

Actually I know far more about finance that you do and some very senior people in Edinburgh financial services think the Nats are a joke.  Cowboys with no plans.  It will be alright on the night types.

Well Scottish taxes raise about £65 billion and the block grant is about £40 billion. 
 

can you do arithmetic? 

[Malinga the Swinga]

3 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

It was @kingantti1874who said that some fiercely patriotic guys could get violent.  I'm asking him to elaborate on that.  If you think he's wrong, you could say something to him about it - he's the one suggesting things could get violent, not me.

No, you inferred by way of leading question that British people were inclined to be more violent than Scots and that they couldn't control themselves. You know you did. I simply answered your questions.

[frankblack]

3 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

Well Scottish taxes raise about £65 billion and the block grant is about £40 billion. 
 

can you do arithmetic? 

 

And the figure of a £36 billion deficit indicates the Scottish Government are spending way more than they take in.

[The Mighty Thor]

8 minutes ago, frankblack said:

The link I found for 2020/2021 was: https://www.statista.com/statistics/350687/scottish-revenue-budget-balance/

Do you mean the mythical and magical GERS figures? 

 

That's where Scotland who can't raise finance runs an imaginary deficit on the money it can't raise. 

 

You know what's on there though? Seeing as you're fond of trains -Scotlands share of HS2 and Crossrail costs. I've checked the TFL map, cannae see Gorgie south on the Elizabeth line. 

[Roxy Hearts]

2 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

You suggesting we should have an armed insurrection and wage a campaign of indiscriminate bombing throughout Scotland and England? After all, what's plain murder if you get what you want at the end of it. Thought that was more of a Celtic attitude but good to know what you believe.

I more of a pacifist bud. I'm not suggesting anything. I don't know enough about Irish politics and neither do you. What you're alluding to isn't my idea of democracy but people react to things differently.

 

The British including many Scots are as guilty of some atrocities as other nations. The British including Scots have also done some great things.

 

I loathe Celtic and Rangers. 

 

I'll tell you where I am. I'm a Hearts supportrer, protestant, Freemason, Edinburgher and Scotsman. I loathe the establishment, the royals, Westminster, terrorism and sectarianism. Now I'm enjoying a beer, watching the golf and playing golf with mates tomorrow. Have a good evening.

[Space Mackerel]

Just now, frankblack said:

 

And the figure of a £36 billion deficit indicates the Scottish Government are spending way more than they take in.

Why do you persist with this fake narrative. As I said, you CLEARLY have no idea about gov expenditure. People like you shouldn’t get a vote in Indy Ref 2, you’re far too dense.

 

 

[frankblack]

 

1 minute ago, Space Mackerel said:

Why do you persist with this fake narrative. As I said, you CLEARLY have no idea about gov expenditure. People like you shouldn’t get a vote in Indy Ref 2, you’re far too dense.

 

 

 

Do you get paid for posting nonsense on football forums?  I never see you post on any other topics, funnily enough. 🤔

Edited June 19, 2022 by frankblack

[Space Mackerel]

1 minute ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Do you mean the mythical and magical GERS figures? 

 

That's where Scotland who can't raise finance runs an imaginary deficit on the money it can't raise. 

 

You know what's on there though? Seeing as you're fond of trains -Scotlands share of HS2 and Crossrail costs. I've checked the TFL map, cannae see Gorgie south on the Elizabeth line. 

Its amazing isn’t it. A government who can’t really borrow (it can up £600 million with the UK’s blessing) can run up a massive debt? 
 

 

[frankblack]

2 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Do you mean the mythical and magical GERS figures? 

 

That's where Scotland who can't raise finance runs an imaginary deficit on the money it can't raise. 

 

You know what's on there though? Seeing as you're fond of trains -Scotlands share of HS2 and Crossrail costs. I've checked the TFL map, cannae see Gorgie south on the Elizabeth line. 

 

Its not just Scotland that has lost out on that project - as the North of England too.

[Ulysses]

7 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

You suggesting we should have an armed insurrection and wage a campaign of indiscriminate bombing throughout Scotland and England? After all, what's plain murder if you get what you want at the end of it. Thought that was more of a Celtic attitude but good to know what you believe.

 

We had an armed insurrection in 1916, and it failed, but we made Ireland ungovernable and we won our independence - and began the collapse of the British Empire in the process.

 

As I said to someone else, they were different times when Ireland gained its independence, and I'm not suggesting Scotland should do anything like that.  In fact, if you read my posts, you'll also note that I'm not even suggesting that independence is the right course for Scotland.

 

We did not wage a campaign of indiscriminate bombing throughout Scotland and England to gain our independence, as you well know.  Now, stop being so angry and try engaging with the subject matter a hand rather than your prejudices. 

[frankblack]

Just now, Space Mackerel said:

Its amazing isn’t it. A government who can’t really borrow (it can up £600 million with the UK’s blessing) can run up a massive debt? 
 

 

 

Given the evidence of your due diligence on the ferries that is probably a blessing in disguise.

[The Mighty Thor]

Just now, frankblack said:

 

Its not just Scotland that has lost out on that project - as the North of England too.

They don't have the magical GERS now do they?

[Roxy Hearts]

11 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

Yeah, it was the British types who carried out Birmingham, Manchester, London, Brighton and Warrington atrocities while those peaceful Irish chaps had nothing to do with it.

 

I'm as disgusted by that as you are. I'm not condoning it. Terrorism has no place in democracy. You can't blame it all on the Irish people. 

[Ulysses]

15 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

If only there were more level headed people like you around in both our countries we might get somewhere!

 

British types not including the sectarianism element tend to be more aggressive and less likely to be debate, I find.

 

I'd like to agree with you there, but I have to hold back a bit.  I'm afraid that once the national identity monster and the religious label boogeyman are in the room, behaviour tends to get worse across the board.  It's easy to be level-headed about something when you're not immersed in it; much harder when the toxicity is all around you.

[Space Mackerel]

Just now, frankblack said:

 

 

Do you get paid for posting nonsense on football forums?  I never see you post on any other topics, funnily enough. 🤔

Whoever is paying you is clearly pissing money up the wall! I’ve never read so much rubbish in my life.

 

And yes, I work for Mac15. The new Scotch Intelligence service. 

[Malinga the Swinga]

4 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

I more of a pacifist bud. I'm not suggesting anything. I don't know enough about Irish politics and neither do you. What you're alluding to isn't my idea of democracy but people react to things differently.

 

The British including many Scots are as guilty of some atrocities as other nations. The British including Scots have also done some great things.

 

I loathe Celtic and Rangers. 

 

I'll tell you where I am. I'm a Hearts supportrer, protestant, Freemason, Edinburgher and Scotsman. I loathe the establishment, the royals, Westminster, terrorism and sectarianism. Now I'm enjoying a beer, watching the golf and playing golf with mates tomorrow. Have a good evening.

Also watching golf but unfortunately will be working tomorrow. Enjoy the conditions as it looks to be a glorious of sunshine.

[frankblack]

1 minute ago, The Mighty Thor said:

They don't have the magical GERS now do they?

 

I'm not going to stand up for Tory policies I don't agree with but voting out the tories at the next election is the least destructive option to our finances.

[Ulysses]

1 minute ago, Roxy Hearts said:

I'm as disgusted by that as you are. I'm not condoning it. Terrorism has no place in democracy. You can't blame it all on the Irish people. 

 

You certainly can't blame it on the people who secured our independence.  Aside from any other consideration, most of them were dead or in old folks' homes by the time those atrocities were committed.

[Roxy Hearts]

Just now, Ulysses said:

 

I'd like to agree with you there, but I have to hold back a bit.  I'm afraid that once the national identity monster and the religious label boogeyman are in the room, behaviour tends to get worse across the board.  It's easy to be level-headed about something when you're not immersed in it; much harder when the toxicity is all around you.

Always a pleasure to read your posts Uly. Have a good evening 👍

[Malinga the Swinga]

1 minute ago, Roxy Hearts said:

I'm as disgusted by that as you are. I'm not condoning it. Terrorism has no place in democracy. You can't blame it all on the Irish people. 

Pretty much can do. They were the ones planting the bombs. They were ones protecting bombers.

Now off to watch golf.

 

[Space Mackerel]

3 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Given the evidence of your due diligence on the ferries that is probably a blessing in disguise.

Imagine you’re  foreign and you stumble on this thread and you see someone saying Scotland can’t be independent because a couple of f****** ferries were over due and over budget.

 

😁😁😁

[Weakened Offender]

50 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

And Scotland was perhaps the worst of all with the wealth being earned from the slave trade etc in Edinburgh and Glasgow.

 

I'm quite happy to be independent from Glasgow too Frank. 😊

[Weakened Offender]

42 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

I believe you will find Scotland and Scots were more than happy to play their full part in building and running the empire.

Wasn't all the big nasty English.

 

 

We were only following orders. 😉

[frankblack]

Just now, Weakened Offender said:

 

I'm quite happy to be independent from Glasgow too Frank. 😊

 

Nice thought but Edinburgh has a lot of blood on its hands too, like the rest of the country.  There are plenty of articles online on it.  A number of street names are named after wealthy slave owners, for example.

[Roxy Hearts]

10 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

Also watching golf but unfortunately will be working tomorrow. Enjoy the conditions as it looks to be a glorious of sunshine.

👍

[frankblack]

6 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

Imagine you’re  foreign and you stumble on this thread and you see someone saying Scotland can’t be independent because a couple of f****** ferries were over due and over budget.

 

😁😁😁

 

About the only thing thriving under this SNP government are the drug death figures. 👍

[Ulysses]

12 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

No, you inferred by way of leading question that British people were inclined to be more violent than Scots and that they couldn't control themselves. You know you did. I simply answered your questions.

 

You inferred, and you are suggesting that I implied.  Just saying.  But in any case, it was @kingantti1874who made the point, not me.   I made the point that in 2014 there was no violence by the losing side.  I genuinely want to know if he really thinks it would be different this time; he might have reason to believe it would, but I don't see why.  And yes, the implication of what he said is that he believes that in some way people with a British identity were more likely to respond violently if they lost.  He may not have meant that, but that is how it read and that is why I asked.  And frankly, only he can answer that, not you or anyone else, because we're not mind readers.  It's up to him whether he does or doesn't, but it's his opinion I'm interested in, because he's the person who posted the message.

 

[Space Mackerel]

Just now, frankblack said:

 

About the only thing thriving under this SNP government are the drug death figures. 👍

When did Scotch Yoons start caring about the social underclass up here? 
Answer: when they can get some mileage out of it. 
 

Shameless cretins. 

[Ulysses]

14 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

Always a pleasure to read your posts Uly. Have a good evening 👍

 

Cheers.  Enjoy the golf (you know it's only called "golf" because all the other 4-letter words were gone?)

[Ulysses]

14 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

Pretty much can do. They were the ones planting the bombs. They were ones protecting bombers.

Now off to watch golf.

 

 

There's only one monumental wally on this forum who has ever posted to cheerlead his support for Sinn Féin.  And it wasn't me. 

 

Now pull your zip up; your prejudice is hanging out.