Should Scotland be an independent country?

[Unknown user]

1 minute ago, Dazo said:

I’m not assuming anything other than don’t expect rUK to pander to what’s best for Scotland if independence was to happen. 

Well the conversation you inserted yourself into was about the assumption that there would be customs checks.

[Dazo]

15 minutes ago, Smithee said:

Well the conversation you inserted yourself into was about the assumption that there would be customs checks.

Its all part of the bigger picture though and will be part of any negotiations. You’re West Lothian so Welcome to the internet Smithee where everyone has an opinion whether you want to hear it or not. 👍

Edited June 21, 2022 by Dazo

[Unknown user]

8 minutes ago, Dazo said:

Its all part of the bigger picture though and will be part of any negotiations. You’re West Lothian so Welcome to the internet Smithee where everyone as an opinion whether you want to hear it or not. 👍

 

There's no reason to assume there'll be customs checks.

[pablo]

Of course there would be a hard border. I would expect it would include people going through immigration checks as well as goods through customs. 

[Unknown user]

3 minutes ago, pablo said:

Of course there would be a hard border. I would expect it would include people going through immigration checks as well as goods through customs. 

 

Of course?

 

Have there ever been customs checks on this island (excluding leaving the island of course!)?

 

The UK has one land border. Are there customs checks there?

 

Of course?

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

33 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

The only precedent we have for a land border between the UK and a former part of the UK is the border between NI and the RoI - no customs checks.

 

In the many centuries of a land border between Scotland and England - no customs checks.

 

There's no reason to assume there would be customs checks

Except there used to be customs checks.

[Ainsley Harriott]

34 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

The only precedent we have for a land border between the UK and a former part of the UK is the border between NI and the RoI - no customs checks.

 

In the many centuries of a land border between Scotland and England - no customs checks.

 

There's no reason to assume there would be customs checks

That's only because of the good Friday peace agreement. If Scotland harbours ambitions of eventually one day joing the EU then a border will be required 

[Unknown user]

3 minutes ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

Except there used to be customs checks.

Where?

[Unknown user]

1 minute ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

That's only because of the good Friday peace agreement. If Scotland harbours ambitions of eventually one day joing the EU then a border will be required 

If we decide to join the EU we'll have to have a grown up discussion about it and the ramifications.

 

Until then, there's no reason to assume there'll be customs checks.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

2 minutes ago, Smithee said:

Where?

At the Irish border.

 

If you read what I said to you, those custom checks were removed when the UK and Ireland joined the EEC.

[Ainsley Harriott]

1 minute ago, Smithee said:

If we decide to join the EU we'll have to have a grown up discussion about it and the ramifications.

 

Until then, there's no reason to assume there'll be customs checks.

Building a border with your largest trading partner doesn't seem the wisest of moves. But I guess all the boo Boris and Tories bad overrules it all 

[Unknown user]

Just now, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

At the Irish border.

 

If you read what I said to you, those custom checks were removed when the UK and Ireland joined the EEC.

I didn't say there have never been checks at the Irish border.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

3 minutes ago, Smithee said:

If we decide to join the EU we'll have to have a grown up discussion about it and the ramifications.

 

Until then, there's no reason to assume there'll be customs checks.

If Scotland joins the single market then the same will apply, even before joining the EU. It would need England to move in the same direction to avoid customs checks.

[Unknown user]

1 minute ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

Building a border with your largest trading partner doesn't seem the wisest of moves.

Indeed, I'm against it.

 

But if it did happen I'm sure we could console ourselves with a local market of 400m+ that aren't run by petulant wankers.

[pablo]

6 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

Of course?

 

Have there ever been customs checks on this island (excluding leaving the island of course!)?

 

The UK has one land border. Are there customs checks there?

 

Of course?

 

You can't compare it with the Irish land border. I'm assuming you know the reason for that?

 

See those gangsters putting all those desperate people on dinghies in the English Channel? They're not dreaming of making it to Cumbernauld.

 

Do you really think after Brexit, the supposedly then English government would just allow free movement of people South on the Island without checks?

 

 

[Unknown user]

1 minute ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

If Scotland joins the single market then the same will apply, even before joining the EU. It would need England to move in the same direction to avoid customs checks.

Cool, but when Scotland becomes independent there's no reason to assume there'll be customs checks.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Just now, Smithee said:

I didn't say there have never been checks at the Irish border.

Right, and why is there such an issue now? Northern Ireland is being treated differently to the rest of the UK EVEN BEFORE THE PROTOCOL IS IMPLEMENTED IN FULL!

 

The highest court in Northern Ireland at present is the European Court of Justice, not the UK Supreme Court.

 

If Westminster decided to scrap VAT, they could only do so in Great Britain. Northern Ireland, as part of the single market, isn't able to benefit in this hypothetical.

[Unknown user]

Just now, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

Right, and why is there such an issue now? Northern Ireland is being treated differently to the rest of the UK EVEN BEFORE THE PROTOCOL IS IMPLEMENTED IN FULL!

 

The highest court in Northern Ireland at present is the European Court of Justice, not the UK Supreme Court.

 

If Westminster decided to scrap VAT, they could only do so in Great Britain. Northern Ireland, as part of the single market, isn't able to benefit in this hypothetical.

 

Cool, but guess what - when Scotland becomes independent there's no reason to assume there'll be customs checks.

 

We have no idea what the agreement will be when the union's dissolved, this will undoubtedly be one of the big issues. And I don't think either country will want something that's never existed before.

 

So again, there's no reason to assume there'll be customs checks.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Just now, Smithee said:

 

Cool, but guess what - when Scotland becomes independent there's no reason to assume there'll be customs checks.

 

We have no idea what the agreement will be when the union's dissolved, this will undoubtedly be one of the big issues. And I don't think either country will want something that's never existed before.

 

So again, there's no reason to assume there'll be customs checks.

Next you'll be telling us that Scotland can have freedom of movement and England won't mind an open border either!

[Ainsley Harriott]

6 minutes ago, Smithee said:

Indeed, I'm against it.

 

But if it did happen I'm sure we could console ourselves with a local market of 400m+ that aren't run by petulant wankers.

Are you referring to the EU? as before we left the EU and before Brexit our trade was always greater with the rest of the UK.

[Unknown user]

4 minutes ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

Next you'll be telling us that Scotland can have freedom of movement and England won't mind an open border either!

I wouldn't be against it, I'm for a different type of union personally, a Benelux type of deal. Independent countries sharing a common market, freedom of movement, etc.

Edited June 21, 2022 by Smithee

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Just now, Smithee said:

I wouldn't be against it, I'm for a different type of union personally, a Benelux type of deal. Independent countries sharing a common market, freedom of movement, etc.

Given that England, apparently, was driven to vote for Brexit by migration, you might be waiting a while.

[il Duce McTarkin]

Saying the same thing over and over proves that it is true. 

 

Fact. 

[Unknown user]

2 minutes ago, Dirk McClaymore said:

Saying the same thing over and over proves that it is true. 

 

Fact. 

There's no reason to assume there'll be customs checks.

[Unknown user]

8 minutes ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

Given that England, apparently, was driven to vote for Brexit by migration, you might be waiting a while.

Well none of us can tell the future Geoffrey. That's why there's no reason to assume there'll be customs checks.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

1 minute ago, Smithee said:

Well none of us can tell the future Geoffrey. That's why there's no reason to assume there'll be customs checks.

That is fair. As someone who deals with probability for a living though, I use that to project forward so that if x then y and z would be the most probable outcome.

[Unknown user]

12 minutes ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

That is fair. As someone who deals with probability for a living though, I use that to project forward so that if x then y and z would be the most probable outcome.

Then you'll know that there are too many unknowns to have any reasonable degree of certainty. That's why there's no reason to accept it as fact.

[Unknown user]

By the way, there's no reason to assume there won't be customs checks either. 

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

25 minutes ago, Smithee said:

Then you'll know that there are too many unknowns to have any reasonable degree of certainty. That's why there's no reason to accept it as fact.

I didn't say anything was fact. Equally, no one in government anywhere would be saying Scotland votes to be independent so let's see what happens next.

[ri Alban]

1 hour ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

Next you'll be telling us that Scotland can have freedom of movement and England won't mind an open border either!

Why is a border a problem. We have borders all over the world 3 more, nae big deal to me. And 26 or so less if we join The EU.

Edited June 21, 2022 by ri Alban

[il Duce McTarkin]

17 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Why is a border a problem. We have borders all over the world 3 more, nae big deal to me. And 26 or so less if we join The EU.

 

We need less borders imo. 

[The Mighty Thor]

2 hours ago, jonesy said:

Absolutely. Thought I’d pose the question to you as one of the more moderate but passionate Indy fans.

Now you're trolling me 😂

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

51 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Why is a border a problem. We have borders all over the world 3 more, nae big deal to me. And 26 or so less if we join The EU.

Never said it was a problem.

[il Duce McTarkin]

Just now, jonesy said:

We need fewer grammar errors, too  

 

It's only an error if it's unintentional. 

[il Duce McTarkin]

4 minutes ago, jonesy said:

One mustn’t lower one’s output to the level of the fieldies, Dirk. 

 

I am a fieldie, jonesy. 

[i wish jj was my dad]

7 hours ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

I’m pulling her up regarding her hypocrisy about attending a conference regarding womens rights abroad , whilst at home ignoring womens groups and their genuine concerns  about the GRA . That’s not being “ obsessive “ that’s what any voter has a right and duty to do .  By attending these conferences she’s raising her profile , simple as that . The SNP is  not the only party  who have 

“ advanced “ the equalities agenda . All parties have . Every single one , as they knew they had to due to various reasons . Other countries were doing so . The cultural / society landscape was changing. . . It made political sense . Even if not a massive vote winner , it certainly won the virtue signalling kudos . Something the SNP

are masters of . Now the tide is turning regarding trans issues ( recent barring if trans swimmers decision ) The SNP may need to rethink their GRA policy . 

If that is what drives your dislike for her fair enough but your posting history about her on all subjects, particularly through covid is obviously personal.  It has no balance whatsoever. The phrase play the ball not the man springs to mind. 

For what it is worth the gender issue is something I am in no position to comment about. She may well be 100% wrong and deserves to be taken to task for it. That's how democracies should work.

But the arguments tend to get lost when it is wrapped up in a constant cycle of personal abuse about her. Elsie/chief mammy wears comfortable shoes, she is shagging a French diplomat, she has thin lips, etc. 

 FWIW, I'm definitely not above flinging shite at Johnson and his gangsters but showing my personal contempt or making things up about him doesn't strengthen my argument. 

[il Duce McTarkin]

45 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Try just a little harder, and you’ll make it to the Hoose. I believe in you. 🫂

 

No interest in becoming one of you Quisling unter-jocks.

 

No voters should be forced to wear some sort of badge or emblem so us fieldies can clearly identify you in public. 

[Ray Gin]

Good to see Jonesy fully embracing the concept of the UK Gov as slave masters holding the Scots against their collective will.

[il Duce McTarkin]

11 minutes ago, jonesy said:

We already do: it’s the lack of anger and frustration on our faces that sets us apart.

 

 

You should be set apart in some sort of ghetto. Keep you all together in case we need to ship you all off at some point. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

2 hours ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

If that is what drives your dislike for her fair enough but your posting history about her on all subjects, particularly through covid is obviously personal.  It has no balance whatsoever. The phrase play the ball not the man springs to mind. 

For what it is worth the gender issue is something I am in no position to comment about. She may well be 100% wrong and deserves to be taken to task for it. That's how democracies should work.

But the arguments tend to get lost when it is wrapped up in a constant cycle of personal abuse about her. Elsie/chief mammy wears comfortable shoes, she is shagging a French diplomat, she has thin lips, etc. 

 FWIW, I'm definitely not above flinging shite at Johnson and his gangsters but showing my personal contempt or making things up about him doesn't strengthen my argument. 

Wow/. Try reading the " i hate the  Tories " thread and you'll see real hate on that thread.  Vicious , personal stuff. Nasty. 

 

I comment on NS because she is the FM just like everyone comments on BJ who is the PM so what's the difference ? She basically is a one woman band and seems to have her finger in every pie as it were , regarding every issue under the sun.  No one in her party seems to get a voice.  She is an autocrat so for that deserves the contempt I and others sling at her.  She has taken the GRA issue as a personal crusade. I haven't heard any other SNP peoples views about it , apart from the excellent Joanna Cherry.  LIke i said no one seems to have an opinion by her. Total control of the party and as such the Govt.  Now thats a worry. At least down South they at least can bring their boss to account.  There is no such mechanism up here. 

[Konrad von Carstein]

2 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

At least down South they at least can bring their boss to account.  There is no such mechanism up here. 

 

If that's the case then why is the sexually incontinent, lying lawbreaking sack of shit still PM?

[JudyJudyJudy]

3 minutes ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

 

If that's the case then why is the sexually incontinent, lying lawbreaking sack of shit still PM?

Sorry i meant there is a mechanism of sorts to bring their boss to account.  Whether is does or doesn't is another thing.  

[Jeffros Furios]

Freedom isn't free 

[jack D and coke]

19 minutes ago, jonesy said:

I’d take the Rwanda option if it meant not having a Space Alban’s wet dream of President for Life Sturgeon in sole charge of Indy Scotland. Kigali likely to be a more tolerant and fun place than the Sober Transtastic Bus Pass Nation of Uber Jockistan. 

[Unknown user]

8 minutes ago, Jeffros Furios said:

Freedom isn't free 

No, there's a hefty ****in fee

[i wish jj was my dad]

1 hour ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Wow/. Try reading the " i hate the  Tories " thread and you'll see real hate on that thread.  Vicious , personal stuff. Nasty. 

 

I comment on NS because she is the FM just like everyone comments on BJ who is the PM so what's the difference ? She basically is a one woman band and seems to have her finger in every pie as it were , regarding every issue under the sun.  No one in her party seems to get a voice.  She is an autocrat so for that deserves the contempt I and others sling at her.  She has taken the GRA issue as a personal crusade. I haven't heard any other SNP peoples views about it , apart from the excellent Joanna Cherry.  LIke i said no one seems to have an opinion by her. Total control of the party and as such the Govt.  Now thats a worry. At least down South they at least can bring their boss to account.  There is no such mechanism up here. 

Wow.  If you read this back to yourself you might just get the point I was making. Maybe. 

[i wish jj was my dad]

I was too slow to edit my previous post but I thought for balance it is worth pointing out again that I'm not above chucking shite at the Tories or more specifically the current  shower of gangsters masquerading as a government. I do see a big difference between them and genuine One Nation Tories who have a legitimately different perspective on what a modern, progressive democracy should look like than I do. 

 

However. The current lot in power have no concept of doing what is best for the national interest. Their interest does not extend beyond filling their satchels and those of their pals and if the UK PLC is put back to 1972 that's not their concern. Nicola Stugeon's Government and her predecessor do and did respect the principles of democracy though and even although the former FM did not respect the principles of common decency. I place AS on a.possibly worse footing than Johnson as a man but both  he and NS are Democrats regardless of what I think of their personal qualities or policies in office. 

[il Duce McTarkin]

2 hours ago, jonesy said:

The Sober Transtastic Bus Pass Nation of Uber Jockistan. 

 

Sounds great tbf. 

[Konrad von Carstein]

3 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Nae jobs, nae hopes.

 

Just folk <20 or >60 with blue face paint, sitting on the buses all day, getting off at pharmacies to pick up their free prescriptions. Will turn into one of those countries like the Philippines where all the working age population fecks off to the Middle East or the USA to earn money to send back in remittances.

 

Braw.

Braw = Fifeism (trust me, I know )

 

Rerr = Edinburghism 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Konrad von Carstein]

1 minute ago, jonesy said:

I imagine the Scottish National TV's main output is going to be something along the lines of a regional dialect words Quiz Show, hosted by the equivalent of that bursds that reads the news in North Korea and gets angry about America yet tearful when a leader dies. Every night, when the show draws to a close, there'll be a 20-minute 'We still hate the Tories' chant-off in which cameras, beaming live from around Scottish living rooms, show competing families aiming to out-do each other in shouting about how much they hate the aforementioned Tory *******s. Essential viewing.

Rerr!