JudyJudyJudy Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 4 hours ago, Malinga the Swinga said: That's why I don't understand. Screaming Tories are to blame won't convince most to vote for independence. A clear coherent and detailed plan explaining why it is to the individuals benefit to do so just might persuade the required number. So far, no plan produced. It wasn't produced last time either. Yep Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malinga the Swinga Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 1 hour ago, OTT said: I agree with this. Sturgeons government have a lot to do to ease concerns in that regard. With the time to reflect on what went wrong in 2014, it would be very disappointing if they haven't been able to answer questions on things like pensions, currency etc. It will be interesting to see what approach the no camp elect to take though. No maybe won in 2014, but they lost vote share to Yes which they've not been able to win back and Labour have become a 3rd rate party as a result. I do not believe there is a positive vision to sell of the Union because that would require change that it isn't capable of making. Federalism etc. is a fairy tale and following the Vow I think folk will think very carefully about the substance of promises made when casting their votes. The No camp will undoubtedly be as negative as the Yes camp. Both sides will almost exclusively campaign on negatives, criticising other side while refusing to put any concrete plans forward themselves. This is because they're lazy, incompetent and can't be trusted. Unfortunately for Yes vote, the onus is on them to prove future is better with independence. We know what we have. It isn't great, the current UK government is shit and there are load of issues around. That stills sounds better than jumping into unknown with no plan at all and simply crossing fingers that things will somehow fall into place. Might not be fair, but that's just the way it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SectionDJambo Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 4 hours ago, Malinga the Swinga said: That's why I don't understand. Screaming Tories are to blame won't convince most to vote for independence. A clear coherent and detailed plan explaining why it is to the individuals benefit to do so just might persuade the required number. So far, no plan produced. It wasn't produced last time either. That does to seem what can’t be produced. Much rhetoric,dew eyed hopes and justified ranting about Westminster, but no coherent, convincing plan about how a post independent Scotland would enhance our lives. Personally, I think that Sturgeon is only doing what Johnson is doing for himself, with her stirring up the nationalist fervour for a new referendum. Trying to garner popularity from her past support to embed her desired current position. I don’t think she really wants a referendum . The risks are too high for failure to convince enough of the electorate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 7 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said: Unfortunately for Yes vote, the onus is on them to prove future is better with independence. Exactly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said: Unfortunately for Yes vote, the onus is on them to prove future is better with independence. They need to convince enough people that an independent Scotland is a better option than being a UK region. I'll be voting yes because I want the Scottish electorate to have a government it can hold to account every time. "People should not fear their government, governments should fear their people." Westminster doesn't fear us, they're not even interested. Edited June 15, 2022 by Smithee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punks No Deid Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 1 minute ago, Smithee said: They need to convince enough people that an independent Scotland is a better option than being a UK region. I'll be voting yes because I want the Scottish electorate to have a government it can hold to account every time. "People should not fear their government, governments should fear their people." Westminster doesn't fear us, they're not even interested. I couldn’t agree more Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malinga the Swinga Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 3 minutes ago, Smithee said: They need to convince enough people that an independent Scotland is a better option than being a UK region. I'll be voting yes because I want the Scottish electorate to have a government it can hold to account every time. "People should not fear their government, governments should fear their people." Westminster doesn't fear us, they're not even interested. That's what you think. Unfortunately for you, the majority want a plan in place that tells us what will happen. Using some quote you copied doesn't count as a plan. You would jump into the unknown, and hope things work out. I'm not willing to risk my kids futures on hope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Montpelier Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 5 hours ago, Cairneyhill Jambo said: Just like Cameron and Farage after Brexit? They disappeared faster than a shit of a shovel after leaving us with this shitshow. A touch of whataboutery from you there but on balance a fair point. We are run by a shower of shallow career builders who face very little consequence for their actions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Montpelier Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 6 hours ago, Pans Jambo said: So to finally get rid of the SNP, everyone should just vote for Scottish Independence? I can live with that. I actually think if the SNP assured me they would fold in the event of independence I might vote for it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taffin Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 14 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said: That's what you think. Unfortunately for you, the majority want a plan in place that tells us what will happen. Using some quote you copied doesn't count as a plan. You would jump into the unknown, and hope things work out. I'm not willing to risk my kids futures on hope. You'll never know what the future holds independence, or no independence. Suggesting that's only true on one path is disingenuous. Staying in the Union is nothing more than hope, Brexit is a monumental risk to people's futures. I'd have much preferred my hypothetical kids to have had a future of free movement within the EU than the future the UK is currently building for itself. They're considering scrapping the ECHR...what a wonderful future for the youth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malinga the Swinga Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 3 minutes ago, Taffin said: You'll never know what the future holds independence, or no independence. Suggesting that's only true on one path is disingenuous. Staying in the Union is nothing more than hope, Brexit is a monumental risk to people's futures. I'd have much preferred my hypothetical kids to have had a future of free movement within the EU than the future the UK is currently building for itself. They're considering scrapping the ECHR...what a wonderful future for the youth. Well we can agree to disagree. I've seen almost 60 years of union and much as things seem to change, in the grand scheme of things nothing much is radically different. It's bit shit just now, but it was a bit shit in 70's and we got though it. It was a bit shit in 80's and we got through it. We weren't in Common Market, then we were and now we are out again. Rightly or wrongly, we don't know what independence looks like. Your willing to risk that on a wing, a prayer and a cry of freedom, I'm more pragmatic and as long as the Scottish government fail to produce a concrete vision of the future, then they won't win the vote. Pragmatism over optimism I'm afraid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kila Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 (edited) 9 hours ago, Lord BJ said: We’re a tiny island in real terms... That way of thinking is to believe we're too small to be anything better. We already are better than England with some policies, such as allowing anyone to attend university not just the rich, and to take care of our sick with free prescriptions. We can fund these ourselves and it isn't a unique thing for a European country of our size either. I think Scotland is more aligned with European policies, England becoming much more like the US. Would you rather live in the EU or US when it comes to food quality, healthcare and education? Edited June 15, 2022 by kila Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weakened Offender Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 49 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said: Unfortunately for you, the majority want a plan in place that tells us what will happen. Its amazing that you can type that with any kind of seriousness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malinga the Swinga Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 1 minute ago, kila said: That way of thinking is to believe we're too small to be anything better. We already are better than England with some policies, such as allowing anyone to attend university not just the rich, and to take care of our sick with free prescriptions. We can fund these ourselves and it isn't a unique thing for a European country of our size either. I think Scotland is more aligned with European policies, England becoming much more like the US. Would I rather live in the EU or US when it comes to food quality, healthcare and education? No point in allowing anyone to go to university if they can't get a job when they graduate. Prescriptions aren't free, I pay for them via tax. Personally, I'd rather live in California than France or Poland. We have far more in common with people who live in England, it's just a pretence to think otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malinga the Swinga Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 2 minutes ago, Weakened Offender said: Its amazing that you can type that with any kind of seriousness. Well not really. Last referendum proved it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weakened Offender Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 1 minute ago, Malinga the Swinga said: Well not really. Last referendum proved it. Aye, because nothing has changed since then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 1 hour ago, JudyJudyJudy said: Exactly. Prove the future? Have you got any idea how ridiculous this is? What are you wanting? Someone to read tea leaves or get a clairvoyant in? “Prove the future” 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣😃 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weakened Offender Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 4 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said: We have far more in common with people who live in England, it's just a pretence to think otherwise. Correct but a lot of people up here are done waiting for them to realise. 😉 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malinga the Swinga Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 3 minutes ago, Weakened Offender said: Aye, because nothing has changed since then. Other than those SNP fanboys, the rest of us have moved on and Brexit has been forgotten about. It really has. Look at polls. Look at UK government. Independence should be a foregone conclusion. It isn't. Nothing has really changed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 8 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said: No point in allowing anyone to go to university if they can't get a job when they graduate. Prescriptions aren't free, I pay for them via tax. Personally, I'd rather live in California than France or Poland. We have far more in common with people who live in England, it's just a pretence to think otherwise. Pic of EU referendum result map please? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weakened Offender Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 Just now, Malinga the Swinga said: and Brexit has been forgotten about. It really has. I'm not quoting you anymore because I'll say something true and get banned from the thread 😁 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taffin Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 34 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said: Well we can agree to disagree. I've seen almost 60 years of union and much as things seem to change, in the grand scheme of things nothing much is radically different. It's bit shit just now, but it was a bit shit in 70's and we got though it. It was a bit shit in 80's and we got through it. We weren't in Common Market, then we were and now we are out again. Rightly or wrongly, we don't know what independence looks like. Your willing to risk that on a wing, a prayer and a cry of freedom, I'm more pragmatic and as long as the Scottish government fail to produce a concrete vision of the future, then they won't win the vote. Pragmatism over optimism I'm afraid. That's a very fair post. I do think things like not being in the common market are significantly more problematic in today's world with globalisation which is only going to increase. I'll vote Yes unless the Unionist parties can provide a concrete vision of the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 1 minute ago, Malinga the Swinga said: Brexit has been forgotten about Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malinga the Swinga Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 2 minutes ago, Weakened Offender said: I'm not quoting you anymore because I'll say something true and get banned from the thread 😁 Not by me. I'm not one for reporting comments, so bash on. Tis a free country after all and opinions are just that and nothing more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malinga the Swinga Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 4 minutes ago, Taffin said: That's a very fair post. I do think things like not being in the common market are significantly more problematic in today's world with globalisation which is only going to increase. I'll vote Yes unless the Unionist parties can provide a concrete vision of the future. And I'll vote no unless the independence movement produce a concrete vision of their future. As to who is right, well that's a question and a half Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malinga the Swinga Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 2 minutes ago, Smithee said: Who is that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 Imagine NOT wanting to run your own country? It’s like asking a worker if they would like to run the company. How thick do you have to be to not realise this? Utterly baffling! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 Just now, Malinga the Swinga said: Who is that? Everyone laughing at the idea of brexit being forgotten. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malinga the Swinga Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 1 minute ago, jonesy said: It's alright, you could just use your other login and continue your Savage ways. ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 1 minute ago, Smithee said: Everyone laughing at the idea of brexit being forgotten. Its all over. Apart from the ECHR and the NIP and Scottish independence and the flat lining growth and inflation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malinga the Swinga Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 Just now, Smithee said: Everyone laughing at the idea of brexit being forgotten. It has been. We have had Covid, Ukraine war, attempted coup in US, energy crisis, and migrant crisis since Brexit. You and a few others keep on about it, but if you were honest, it isn't a topic of conversation you hear about. It was wrong decision, in my opinion, but you can't spend life looking backward or else you become a cynical bitter person. Look forward as hindsight is a killer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malinga the Swinga Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 Just now, jonesy said: This the tagline to the new white paper? Don't think it's going to win hearts and minds, my fishy friend. Please don't quote him. He's about only person I have on ignore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malinga the Swinga Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 Just now, jonesy said: Our mutual acquaintance, Weakened Offender, has an alternative login - Savage Vince - that he ran to last he either got banned or bored. Same posting style and same empty chambers in his arsenal. Thanks for passing on. Seems a hell of a lot of work for posting shit on a football forum. Why bother. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 3 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said: It has been. We have had Covid, Ukraine war, attempted coup in US, energy crisis, and migrant crisis since Brexit. You and a few others keep on about it, but if you were honest, it isn't a topic of conversation you hear about. It was wrong decision, in my opinion, but you can't spend life looking backward or else you become a cynical bitter person. Look forward as hindsight is a killer. Cheers for the advice, but I can assure you brexit won't be forgotten about. Tories bad Brexit What's next on the list of great arguments for independence that you'd rather weren't brought up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 11 minutes ago, jonesy said: This the tagline to the new white paper? Don't think it's going to win hearts and minds, my fishy friend. Why would you not want to run your own business? Why would you not want to run your own country? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 11 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said: Please don't quote him. He's about only person I have on ignore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malinga the Swinga Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 12 minutes ago, Smithee said: Cheers for the advice, but I can assure you brexit won't be forgotten about. Tories bad Brexit What's next on the list of great arguments for independence that you'd rather weren't brought up? Since I want to concentrate on Scotland and Scottish topics, let's go for Scotland leading league table in drug deaths. Scottish tax revenue going down. Scottish government taking over ferry company and losing money hand over fist Scottish education standards falling Scottish government attempting to purge Salmond from politics leading to loss of trust in Scottish judiciary Scottish health services failing Scottish transport policy Scottish government dependency on green party leading to energy issues Scottish government policy on economy, currency or pensions. Scottish government plans on how we will finance capital expenditure, including but not restricted to bonds, how we take on share of current national debt and raising finance on the market Policy on nuclear weapons in particular and arned forces, including Army, Navy and Air Force Scottish government policy on defence and joining NATO Scottish governments willingness to sacrifice it's citizens in pursuit of independence. Scottish government offering 'free' gifts that working class pay for. Scottish government pursuit of EU membership. What will this cost and what are benefits? That will do for starters. Plenty to answer and let's try and do it without using whataboutery as a response. Let's go for positive answers covering particularly economy, currency and pensions. For example, my salary paid in sterling. What currency are we planning to use going forward? When I retire, how will Scottish government ensure pension funding available? Getting a bit late, so no need to rush responses. After all, the SNP have had about 40 years and they haven't answered properly yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greedy Jambo Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 Scotland ya *******s! FREEDOM FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDOM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 27 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said: Since I want to concentrate on Scotland and Scottish topics, let's go for Scotland leading league table in drug deaths. Scottish tax revenue going down. Scottish government taking over ferry company and losing money hand over fist Scottish education standards falling Scottish government attempting to purge Salmond from politics leading to loss of trust in Scottish judiciary Scottish health services failing Scottish transport policy Scottish government dependency on green party leading to energy issues Scottish government policy on economy, currency or pensions. Scottish government plans on how we will finance capital expenditure, including but not restricted to bonds, how we take on share of current national debt and raising finance on the market Policy on nuclear weapons in particular and arned forces, including Army, Navy and Air Force Scottish government policy on defence and joining NATO Scottish governments willingness to sacrifice it's citizens in pursuit of independence. Scottish government offering 'free' gifts that working class pay for. Scottish government pursuit of EU membership. What will this cost and what are benefits? That will do for starters. Plenty to answer and let's try and do it without using whataboutery as a response. Let's go for positive answers covering particularly economy, currency and pensions. For example, my salary paid in sterling. What currency are we planning to use going forward? When I retire, how will Scottish government ensure pension funding available? Getting a bit late, so no need to rush responses. After all, the SNP have had about 40 years and they haven't answered properly yet. Pretty skimpy on reasons against freedom there lad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 39 minutes ago, jonesy said: Your business analogy makes no sense at all. Your second question is much more valid. I'd agree that, keeping decision making closer to home usually makes sense. However, there are a few logical reasons as to why or when that may not be in the best interests of the country. Given the lack of clarity/certainty about issues such as currency and EU membership, not to mention the paucity of inspiring and/or competent (IMO, of course) leaders to take Scotland into what would be an exciting but difficult transition from union member to independent state, then it's not as cut and dried to many people as it clearly is to you. I was probably not dissimilar to yourself last time around, and thought anyone voting 'no' must have had a screw loose, but with a few more miles on the clock and having seen the shit show that is/was Brexit along with a keener interest in economics, I'm now much more empathetic to the friends I alienated in 2014 by rubbishing their concerns over a 'yes' outcome. What I also don't get, is how so many of the keenest separatists are so confident of how things will play out after a 'yes' vote in terms of Scottish politics. The notion that the SNP will somehow disband and all the wee factions within the party will somehow form nice wee parties of their own and they'll all play nice together at Holyrood forevermore seems too optimistic. I reckon many within the SNP have become very comfortable with power itself, meaning that they will be loathe to give that up if indy is won. They've put together an effective election winning (more or less) machine in order to push forward their policies rather than independence. I doubt there would be a rush from people in well-paid, prestigious positions to relegate themselves to lesser roles, or potentially no role at all, just so they can realise their true vision on the political spectrum. So, what, IMO, is more likely to play out is an attempt by SNP folk to consolidate power based on the platform that they finally delivered indy (not so different to the Tories and their Brexit claptrap) and they should now be given a chance/trusted to do what's best for the new Scotland. Given that many of Scotland's problems haven't gone away despite the SNP being in power now for well over a decade - and in some cases, have worsened - where would that then leave Scottish politics one or two elections down the line? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 31 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said: Since I want to concentrate on Scotland and Scottish topics, let's go for Scotland leading league table in drug deaths. Scottish tax revenue going down. Scottish government taking over ferry company and losing money hand over fist Scottish education standards falling Scottish government attempting to purge Salmond from politics leading to loss of trust in Scottish judiciary Scottish health services failing Scottish transport policy Scottish government dependency on green party leading to energy issues Scottish government policy on economy, currency or pensions. Scottish government plans on how we will finance capital expenditure, including but not restricted to bonds, how we take on share of current national debt and raising finance on the market Policy on nuclear weapons in particular and arned forces, including Army, Navy and Air Force Scottish government policy on defence and joining NATO Scottish governments willingness to sacrifice it's citizens in pursuit of independence. Scottish government offering 'free' gifts that working class pay for. Scottish government pursuit of EU membership. What will this cost and what are benefits? That will do for starters. Plenty to answer and let's try and do it without using whataboutery as a response. Let's go for positive answers covering particularly economy, currency and pensions. For example, my salary paid in sterling. What currency are we planning to use going forward? When I retire, how will Scottish government ensure pension funding available? Getting a bit late, so no need to rush responses. After all, the SNP have had about 40 years and they haven't answered properly yet. Cal Mac has always been state owned you utter dafty. 🤣🤣🤣 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 3 minutes ago, Smithee said: Pretty skimpy on reasons against freedom there lad That was the positive case for the Union pal 🤣🤣🤣 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 6 minutes ago, jonesy said: I'm not about to sit through a 43 minute interview with someone whose 'About' section of their website is a dead link. I'm sure he's an appropriately experienced expert in economics, but then again, there are also experts who would probably argue the opposite of whatever he's saying. One would assume, given the YouTube channel on which he was interviewed, that he is pro-indy or at least suggesting a viable economic pathway if it becomes a reality? Care to distill the essence of his angle, or are have we reached that point in the discussion where YouTube videos become the default method of making a point? Why do you not want to watch it? You’re on a Scottish independence thread and he’s literally explaining how a new currency and bank will be set up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 9 minutes ago, jonesy said: I'm not about to sit through a 43 minute interview with someone whose 'About' section of their website is a dead link. I'm sure he's an appropriately experienced expert in economics, but then again, there are also experts who would probably argue the opposite of whatever he's saying. One would assume, given the YouTube channel on which he was interviewed, that he is pro-indy or at least suggesting a viable economic pathway if it becomes a reality? Care to distill the essence of his angle, or are have we reached that point in the discussion where YouTube videos become the default method of making a point? Here’s the written “stuff” relating to the video. I have no idea what you prefer. http://stuartmackintoshauthor.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/SM_NBS_PAPER-22_Final-no-embargo.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weakened Offender Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 1 hour ago, jonesy said: Your business analogy makes no sense at all. Your second question is much more valid. I'd agree that, keeping decision making closer to home usually makes sense. However, there are a few logical reasons as to why or when that may not be in the best interests of the country. Given the lack of clarity/certainty about issues such as currency and EU membership, not to mention the paucity of inspiring and/or competent (IMO, of course) leaders to take Scotland into what would be an exciting but difficult transition from union member to independent state, then it's not as cut and dried to many people as it clearly is to you. I was probably not dissimilar to yourself last time around, and thought anyone voting 'no' must have had a screw loose, but with a few more miles on the clock and having seen the shit show that is/was Brexit along with a keener interest in economics, I'm now much more empathetic to the friends I alienated in 2014 by rubbishing their concerns over a 'yes' outcome. What I also don't get, is how so many of the keenest separatists are so confident of how things will play out after a 'yes' vote in terms of Scottish politics. The notion that the SNP will somehow disband and all the wee factions within the party will somehow form nice wee parties of their own and they'll all play nice together at Holyrood forevermore seems too optimistic. I reckon many within the SNP have become very comfortable with power itself, meaning that they will be loathe to give that up if indy is won. They've put together an effective election winning (more or less) machine in order to push forward their policies rather than independence. I doubt there would be a rush from people in well-paid, prestigious positions to relegate themselves to lesser roles, or potentially no role at all, just so they can realise their true vision on the political spectrum. So, what, IMO, is more likely to play out is an attempt by SNP folk to consolidate power based on the platform that they finally delivered indy (not so different to the Tories and their Brexit claptrap) and they should now be given a chance/trusted to do what's best for the new Scotland. Given that many of Scotland's problems haven't gone away despite the SNP being in power now for well over a decade - and in some cases, have worsened - where would that then leave Scottish politics one or two elections down the line? TL/DR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
il Duce McTarkin Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 @jonesy, stop playing chess with pigeons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weakened Offender Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Dirk McClaymore said: @jonesy, stop playing chess with pigeons. Who rattled your cage? 😁 Edited June 15, 2022 by Weakened Offender Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 1 hour ago, jonesy said: Your business analogy makes no sense at all. Your second question is much more valid. I'd agree that, keeping decision making closer to home usually makes sense. However, there are a few logical reasons as to why or when that may not be in the best interests of the country. Given the lack of clarity/certainty about issues such as currency and EU membership, not to mention the paucity of inspiring and/or competent (IMO, of course) leaders to take Scotland into what would be an exciting but difficult transition from union member to independent state, then it's not as cut and dried to many people as it clearly is to you. I was probably not dissimilar to yourself last time around, and thought anyone voting 'no' must have had a screw loose, but with a few more miles on the clock and having seen the shit show that is/was Brexit along with a keener interest in economics, I'm now much more empathetic to the friends I alienated in 2014 by rubbishing their concerns over a 'yes' outcome. What I also don't get, is how so many of the keenest separatists are so confident of how things will play out after a 'yes' vote in terms of Scottish politics. The notion that the SNP will somehow disband and all the wee factions within the party will somehow form nice wee parties of their own and they'll all play nice together at Holyrood forevermore seems too optimistic. I reckon many within the SNP have become very comfortable with power itself, meaning that they will be loathe to give that up if indy is won. They've put together an effective election winning (more or less) machine in order to push forward their policies rather than independence. I doubt there would be a rush from people in well-paid, prestigious positions to relegate themselves to lesser roles, or potentially no role at all, just so they can realise their true vision on the political spectrum. So, what, IMO, is more likely to play out is an attempt by SNP folk to consolidate power based on the platform that they finally delivered indy (not so different to the Tories and their Brexit claptrap) and they should now be given a chance/trusted to do what's best for the new Scotland. Given that many of Scotland's problems haven't gone away despite the SNP being in power now for well over a decade - and in some cases, have worsened - where would that then leave Scottish politics one or two elections down the line? Once one has power it’s hard to let go off . This was well in evidence with NS during covid . Dread to think what an Indy Scotland would be like with her and her party at the helm . 1 hour ago, Malinga the Swinga said: Since I want to concentrate on Scotland and Scottish topics, let's go for Scotland leading league table in drug deaths. Scottish tax revenue going down. Scottish government taking over ferry company and losing money hand over fist Scottish education standards falling Scottish government attempting to purge Salmond from politics leading to loss of trust in Scottish judiciary Scottish health services failing Scottish transport policy Scottish government dependency on green party leading to energy issues Scottish government policy on economy, currency or pensions. Scottish government plans on how we will finance capital expenditure, including but not restricted to bonds, how we take on share of current national debt and raising finance on the market Policy on nuclear weapons in particular and arned forces, including Army, Navy and Air Force Scottish government policy on defence and joining NATO Scottish governments willingness to sacrifice it's citizens in pursuit of independence. Scottish government offering 'free' gifts that working class pay for. Scottish government pursuit of EU membership. What will this cost and what are benefits? That will do for starters. Plenty to answer and let's try and do it without using whataboutery as a response. Let's go for positive answers covering particularly economy, currency and pensions. For example, my salary paid in sterling. What currency are we planning to use going forward? When I retire, how will Scottish government ensure pension funding available? Getting a bit late, so no need to rush responses. After all, the SNP have had about 40 years and they haven't answered properly yet. Add on : Their insistence on eroding womens and girls safe spaces with steam rolling the GRA act Their soft touch criminal justice system and their interference in various aspects of it , ( not proven verdict , corroboration) Their weird interference in family life and the conflict between the state and parents to parent their children The infantilising of young people by deciding that they are “ children “ till 21 and 25 of they have been “ looked after” The over reliance on state dependency instead of encouraging and promoting the value of working Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 22 minutes ago, jonesy said: Apologies. The crayons and single-syllable world only version is available here. 1987 the greatest year for pop music Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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