Celtic to be served court summons

[tcjambo]

On 05/06/2022 at 16:36, The Tackle said:

Does liability insurance cover sexual abuse of children?

No you can't cover criminality

[Mikey1874]

13 minutes ago, Mr Elwood P said:

Even if they overcome the company law hurdle they still have the test for vicarious liability to overcome. 

 

Currently Celtic can't prove Celtic Boys Club was separate.

 

I'd say the court would have thrown the case out on your argument. But they have considered the law and allowed it to continue.

[Mr Elwood P]

6 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Currently Celtic can't prove Celtic Boys Club was separate.

 

I'd say the court would have thrown the case out on your argument. But they have considered the law and allowed it to continue.

It has been allowed to continue to consider the law. The pursuers need to get round the separate entity defence. Even then companies are often not held liable for the actions of the their employees, vicarious liability (Christian Brothers case).

[Mikey1874]

7 minutes ago, Mr Elwood P said:

It has been allowed to continue to consider the law. The pursuers need to get round the separate entity defence. Even then companies are often not held liable for the actions of the their employees, vicarious liability (Christian Brothers case).

 

The case the victims were awarded over £1 million. 

[Mr Elwood P]

12 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

The case the victims were awarded over £1 million. 

After the case went all the way to the Supreme Court. I'm not saying Celtic will win or lose. Simply explaining how complex and difficult the process will be for the victims.

[Mikey1874]

9 minutes ago, Mr Elwood P said:

After the case went all the way to the Supreme Court. I'm not saying Celtic will win or lose. Simply explaining how complex and difficult the process will be for the victims.

 

The good news (apart from Supreme Court judgements creating precedent and changing the law) meantime is more victims have come forward

 

 

[Mr Elwood P]

2 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

The good news (apart from Supreme Court judgements creating precedent and changing the law) meantime is more victims have come forward

 

 

Not sure I would describe another alleged victims of sexual abuse as 'good news' ?

[Mikey1874]

3 minutes ago, Mr Elwood P said:

Not sure I would describe another alleged victims of sexual abuse as 'good news' ?

 

The abuse has already happened. It isn't happening now. The lawyers are trying to get as many victims to come forward to put their names to the action so if successful they can get compensation. 

 

So more people coming forward is definitely a good thing. And not good for Celtic. 

[leeumboyce]

2 hours ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Though if one body controls the other what is that

 

 

It would seem I do have the other half of my brain. Vile club, their beliefs and yet people still take children to watch them.

[Section Q]

2 hours ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

The abuse has already happened. It isn't happening now. The lawyers are trying to get as many victims to come forward to put their names to the action so if successful they can get compensation. 

 

So more people coming forward is definitely a good thing. And not good for Celtic. 

This

[BangkokHearts]

5 hours ago, leeumboyce said:

It would seem I do have the other half of my brain. Vile club, their beliefs and yet people still take children to watch them.

They have got the 'Thai Tims' here in Thailand which are a bunch of young down syndrome kids being taught to sing Celtic minded songs by some expat.

 

He's obviously doing the right thing to help out disadvantaged kids but you just know there are people who will make the Boy's Club connection.

 

Forever tainted by this scandal they shall be. 

Edited September 27, 2022 by BangkokHearts

[Hagar the Horrible]

That club is repugnant to the core.  From top to bottom indecorous.  Trust me the club and the people within it, then now and in the future, will feel no guilt.  The irony being they are opressed with catholic guilt.

 

They "The club" are the  victims, they see this action upon the club as an attack on them and an attack pretty much upon the pope and the church.  It would not supprise me if the offered a free season ticket as compensation or the church had their preists press the survivors by playing the guilt card.

 

Make no mistake, the "CLUB" and including the boys club is one entity.  Yes there were people whom were preditory within as there are in lots of organisations that allow these beasts to hide in plain sight.  But in this case the club was the mechanism for them to thrive.  They used the "Club" and all its resources to traffic kids on an industrial scale that is unimaginable. It was allowed to happen becuase there was no decent employees ever, they were all guily of looking the other way, thay all "knew"  By doing nothing, they are guilty, and the shame by the new regime by making no effort to accept responsibility.  The Exxon Valdez was still responisble even though that was sold and renamed.  New owners are still responsible, The current board have to accept the liability of past crimes.

 

The reputation of the club is still being fought over, and over and above their uncountable victims.  What reputation? even if they win the damage should be irrepairable.  How can any player with a conscience play for them.  I prey justice for the survivors, they used the dreams of a kid to perpitrate the most henious crimes.  This new regime just want to inflict more pain on those kids who are now adults still coming to terms with their helpless indigence.

[Sooks]

15 minutes ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

That club is repugnant to the core.  From top to bottom indecorous.  Trust me the club and the people within it, then now and in the future, will feel no guilt.  The irony being they are opressed with catholic guilt.

 

They "The club" are the  victims, they see this action upon the club as an attack on them and an attack pretty much upon the pope and the church.  It would not supprise me if the offered a free season ticket as compensation or the church had their preists press the survivors by playing the guilt card.

 

Make no mistake, the "CLUB" and including the boys club is one entity.  Yes there were people whom were preditory within as there are in lots of organisations that allow these beasts to hide in plain sight.  But in this case the club was the mechanism for them to thrive.  They used the "Club" and all its resources to traffic kids on an industrial scale that is unimaginable. It was allowed to happen becuase there was no decent employees ever, they were all guily of looking the other way, thay all "knew"  By doing nothing, they are guilty, and the shame by the new regime by making no effort to accept responsibility.  The Exxon Valdez was still responisble even though that was sold and renamed.  New owners are still responsible, The current board have to accept the liability of past crimes.

 

The reputation of the club is still being fought over, and over and above their uncountable victims.  What reputation? even if they win the damage should be irrepairable.  How can any player with a conscience play for them.  I prey justice for the survivors, they used the dreams of a kid to perpitrate the most henious crimes.  This new regime just want to inflict more pain on those kids who are now adults still coming to terms with their helpless indigence.

 

I dislike Celtic as much as the next person , quite possibly more than most , but I think those first two paragraphs are a wee bit off the mark . I do not think the club as an entity think raping children is okay and I do not think the majority of Catholics do either

 

They are despicable for dragging this out and trying to weasel out of their responsibilities though ................. I think the reasons for that are financial though rather than them thinking it is okay to rape kids 

[Hagar the Horrible]

39 minutes ago, Sooks said:

 

I dislike Celtic as much as the next person , quite possibly more than most , but I think those first two paragraphs are a wee bit off the mark . I do not think the club as an entity think raping children is okay and I do not think the majority of Catholics do either

 

They are despicable for dragging this out and trying to weasel out of their responsibilities though ................. I think the reasons for that are financial though rather than them thinking it is okay to rape kids 

Sorry I do get your point, and its hard to explain, but Celtic is an institution, and their behavior mirrors that of the church, and of course not that 99.999% of people do either,  but has anybody within the club acted within reason on this.  No it has circled the waggon and shrugging off the blame.  Finance is one thing but they are trying to rewrite history, and there is nobody within the club providing support or any empathy, the club has been put first, and that can be interpritaed anyway you like

[davemclaren]

5 minutes ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

Sorry I do get your point, and its hard to explain, but Celtic is an institution, and their behavior mirrors that of the church, and of course not that 99.999% of people do either,  but has anybody within the club acted within reason on this.  No it has circled the waggon and shrugging off the blame.  Finance is one thing but they are trying to rewrite history, and there is nobody within the club providing support or any empathy, the club has been put first, and that can be interpritaed anyway you like

Virtually all organisations have behaved in the same way, churches, football clubs or otherwise. 

[BlueRiver]

8 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

Virtually all organisations have behaved in the same way, churches, football clubs or otherwise. 

A lot of football clubs set up funds and made payments to victims. Celtic seen fairy unique with respect to scale and lengths to deny culpability to me. 
 

Edit: May have overshot with many but a damn sight seem to have done a hell of a lot more than fight tooth and nail through the courts like Celtic have. 

Edited September 27, 2022 by BlueRiver

[davemclaren]

8 minutes ago, BlueRiver said:

A lot of football clubs set up funds and made payments to victims. Celtic seen fairy unique with respect to scale and lengths to deny culpability to me. 

Man City certainly did ( some would say because they can afford to and it avoided legal case publicity ) but not aware of any/many others. All clubs that have been implicated by formal inquiries apologised afaik but only Celtic seem to be using their specific legal defence to distance themselves from it. 
 

Unfortunately, sexual abuse of children, which was hidden by erstwhile respected institutions, seems to have been a relatively common event in the past. 

[Sooks]

25 minutes ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

but has anybody within the club acted within reason on this.  No it has circled the waggon and shrugging off the blame.  Finance is one thing but they are trying to rewrite history, and there is nobody within the club providing support or any empathy, the club has been put first, and that can be interpritaed anyway you like

 

I agree with this bit , it was just the other stuff that I did not really think was accurate 

[BlueRiver]

Just now, davemclaren said:

Man City certainly did ( some would say because they can afford to and it avoided legal case publicity ) but not aware of any/many others. All clubs that have been implicated by formal inquiries apologised afaik but only Celtic seem to be using their specific legal defence to distance themselves from it. 
 

Unfortunately, sexual abuse of children, which was hidden by erstwhile respected institutions, seems to have been a relatively common event in the past. 

Ah sorry if you were addressing your reply to specifically mean how institutions covered it historically. I totally agree.
 

As for the point on funds, yes I did have a little google after I sent that post to be fair as I only though Man City (and had Everton in my head for some reason) has done so. Stand corrected. 
 

I think it’s Celtic’s wriggling over this that pisses me off the most and I really think it sets them apart in a footballing sense at least. 
 

[Mikey1874]

Not about politics, but this is the current SNP and Scottish Government position on the matter - they don't want to know. 

 

 

Edited September 28, 2022 by Mikey1874

[Sooks]

22 hours ago, Mikey1874 said:

Not about politics, but this is the current SNP and Scottish Government position on the matter - they don't want to know. 

 

 

You have no idea if she blocked that account for a legitimate reason though , a lot of people on social media badly over step the mark when discussing topics like child abuse …………. a person can have good intentions and a just cause but be abusive in how they express their views

 

Some of the things I have seen tweeted at her have disgusting 

[Mikey1874]

3 hours ago, Sooks said:

You have no idea if she blocked that account for a legitimate reason though , a lot of people on social media badly over step the mark when discussing topics like child abuse …………. a person can have good intentions and a just cause but be abusive in how they express their views

 

Some of the things I have seen tweeted at her have disgusting 

 

A number of SNP and Green politicians have blocked the child abuse campaigners. Just for asking questions. 

[Sooks]

6 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

A number of SNP and Green politicians have blocked the child abuse campaigners. Just for asking questions. 

Okay if you say so 

[GinRummy]

3 minutes ago, Sooks said:

Okay if you say so 

What do you mean “if you say so”.   If he’s wrong then tell us why. 

[Mikey1874]

7 minutes ago, Sooks said:

Okay if you say so 

 

One example of being ignored. Around the time Sturgeon blocked this gentleman on Twitter which I can't really think is a good signal to give. 

 

 

[Mikey1874]

 

 

[Fozzyonthefence]

16 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

One example of being ignored. Around the time Sturgeon blocked this gentleman on Twitter which I can't really think is a good signal to give. 

 

 

Why is he writing to MSPs though?  Surely it’s a legal matter in either or both criminal or civil courts?  The SG isn’t going to decide whether there is a case to answer for Celtic or any of the other clubs and why would they get involved in an ongoing legal matter?  
 

Not really sure what people want / expect them to do.  Is / did the UK government get involved in the football sex scandals in England or did they leave it for the football authorities  and clubs to sort it out?  What about sex abuse cases in other business - is it normal for government to get involved?  I wouldn’t have thought so but maybe I’m wrong, just seems like an excuse for cheap political point scoring to me. 

[Mikey1874]

14 minutes ago, Fozzyonthefence said:

Why is he writing to MSPs though?  Surely it’s a legal matter in either or both criminal or civil courts?  The SG isn’t going to decide whether there is a case to answer for Celtic or any of the other clubs and why would they get involved in an ongoing legal matter?  
 

Not really sure what people want / expect them to do.  Is / did the UK government get involved in the football sex scandals in England or did they leave it for the football authorities  and clubs to sort it out?  What about sex abuse cases in other business - is it normal for government to get involved?  I wouldn’t have thought so but maybe I’m wrong, just seems like an excuse for cheap political point scoring to me. 

 

Because the Scottish Government has said it wants to stop child abuse. 

 

There are also national inquires into child abuse but somehow Celtic is separate. 

 

I can only think the SNP doesn't want to upset Celtic supporters - maybe their polling has them as strong Independence supporters. 

[john thomas]

4 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Because the Scottish Government has said it wants to stop child abuse. 

 

There are also national inquires into child abuse but somehow Celtic is separate. 

 

I can only think the SNP doesn't want to upset Celtic supporters - maybe their polling has them as strong Independence supporters. 

You are either being deliberately obtuse or just plain stupid .

I suspect the former .

There is an ongoing court case is there not ?

[1971fozzy]

A hideous club and organisation. Rotten to the core. Disgusting and I hope they get hammered. Just vile. Terrorist loving and child abusers. Scum of the earth

[Mikey1874]

Just now, john thomas said:

You are either being deliberately obtuse or just plain stupid .

I suspect the former .

There is an ongoing court case is there not ?

 

Did you read the article above? The victims are asking questions of the Scottish Government even if you don't want to. 

[Fozzyonthefence]

7 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Because the Scottish Government has said it wants to stop child abuse. 

 

There are also national inquires into child abuse but somehow Celtic is separate. 

 

I can only think the SNP doesn't want to upset Celtic supporters - maybe their polling has them as strong Independence supporters. 

Or maybe they want the cases to run their course in court before taking action or making comments that might prejudice an ongoing legal matter.  Celtic and several other clubs also accused haven’t been found guilty of anything yet, maybe best to let the experts get on with it.  Reviews / investigations are normally done after court cases not during them.

[Fozzyonthefence]

2 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Did you read the article above? The victims are asking questions of the Scottish Government even if you don't want to. 

Again, why though?  The article didn’t really give any insight into what questions were being asked during an ongoing legal trial or why?  The timing seems a bit strange to try and get the SG involved.  They’re not going to be giving evidence or legal opinion are they?  Any recriminations should be left until after the trial for pretty obvious reasons. 

[Mikey1874]

9 minutes ago, Fozzyonthefence said:

Or maybe they want the cases to run their course in court before taking action or making comments that might prejudice an ongoing legal matter.  Celtic and several other clubs also accused haven’t been found guilty of anything yet, maybe best to let the experts get on with it.  Reviews / investigations are normally done after court cases not during them.

 

Politicians are asked about ongoing court cases all the time. 

 

But we shall find out. You can look up who this is if you want. 

 

 

[Fozzyonthefence]

3 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Politicians are asked about ongoing court cases all the time. 

 

But we shall find out. You can look up who this is if you want. 

 

 

Any examples of that and what the politicians normal responses would be?

 

You have no idea what correspondence has gone back and forward up to that point do you?  You don’t know what has been said up to the point of being blocked or what triggered it.  You’re referring to correspondence regarding specific allegations against Celtic Boys Club.  As far as I’m aware none of these have been to trial yet so people need to be careful, especially those in positions of authority. 
 

I’d imagine that when a politician gets asked about an ongoing court case their normal response would be to say that they can’t really comment until after the trial and maybe express their sympathy to the victim or victim’s family.  This may already have happened, we have no idea of the full chain of correspondence. 
 

What do you think the SG / First Minister should be saying or doing at this stage Mikey?

[Japan Jambo]

On 26/09/2022 at 20:52, Mikey1874 said:

As a reminder Glasgow Rangers did not have anything near the scale of the problem at Celtic. But their position is they are not responsible because from 2012 they are a new club. 

 

except when it comes to titles I presume?

[Naisys Tackle]

Absolutely shameful that any club wouldn’t take away the pain for the victims by not accepting responsibility. Sometimes things are worse more than money and it’s shameful.  
Every person and their dug back in the day knew that Celtic placed the players they wanted on s-forms with Celtic boys club.  Same as we done with Tynie and Hibs done with Edina.  The cream across the west would have went to the Celtic boys club so players could chase the dream of playing for them.

How Celtic football can take no moral responsibility for the abuse of young men raped and abused and scared to say anything in case it took away the dreams of they boys of not playing for them is disgusting. Even if not legally connected they boys got abused with the carrot of playing for Celtic dangling over them. 
 

Im not one to point score with anything especially as barbaric as that but I find it utterly disgusting they seem to want to wipe their hands with it all. It’s only money at the end of the day. 

[martoon]

18 minutes ago, Robbies Tackle said:

Absolutely shameful that any club wouldn’t take away the pain for the victims by not accepting responsibility. Sometimes things are worse more than money and it’s shameful.  
Every person and their dug back in the day knew that Celtic placed the players they wanted on s-forms with Celtic boys club.  Same as we done with Tynie and Hibs done with Edina.  The cream across the west would have went to the Celtic boys club so players could chase the dream of playing for them.

How Celtic football can take no moral responsibility for the abuse of young men raped and abused and scared to say anything in case it took away the dreams of they boys of not playing for them is disgusting. Even if not legally connected they boys got abused with the carrot of playing for Celtic dangling over them. 
 

Im not one to point score with anything especially as barbaric as that but I find it utterly disgusting they seem to want to wipe their hands with it all. It’s only money at the end of the day. 

 

That's a good post, RT.

Edited September 29, 2022 by martoon

[Naisys Tackle]

1 minute ago, martoon said:

 

That's a good post, RT.

Thanks mate.  Again I’ve tried to move away from point scoring and I would like to think I usually am fair minded.  It’s just my personal opinion based on the past and my experiences.  I know a couple of lives that are completely done through drink and drug abuse a couple years old than me because of what happened in the past.  There was special training camps, mascots and the ball boys at Celtic park were all chosen by the coaches at Celtic boys club who put forward the kids who they seemed fit and I’m not saying for a minute not all of the coaches were the same probably hardly any of them but there was a culture of be the bees knees for the coaches and get all the special treatment.  It was major mental and sexual abuse.  No wonder the parents for the victims are so hell bent on getting justice because they would have been taken in by stories of dreams and success for their kids. 

[john thomas]

7 hours ago, Fozzyonthefence said:

Any examples of that and what the politicians normal responses would be?

 

You have no idea what correspondence has gone back and forward up to that point do you?  You don’t know what has been said up to the point of being blocked or what triggered it.  You’re referring to correspondence regarding specific allegations against Celtic Boys Club.  As far as I’m aware none of these have been to trial yet so people need to be careful, especially those in positions of authority. 
 

I’d imagine that when a politician gets asked about an ongoing court case their normal response would be to say that they can’t really comment until after the trial and maybe express their sympathy to the victim or victim’s family.  This may already have happened, we have no idea of the full chain of correspondence. 
 

What do you think the SG / First Minister should be saying or doing at this stage Mikey?

Absolutely correct but you do know you are wasting your time ?

[GinRummy]

8 hours ago, Fozzyonthefence said:

Why is he writing to MSPs though?  Surely it’s a legal matter in either or both criminal or civil courts?  The SG isn’t going to decide whether there is a case to answer for Celtic or any of the other clubs and why would they get involved in an ongoing legal matter?  
 

Not really sure what people want / expect them to do.  Is / did the UK government get involved in the football sex scandals in England or did they leave it for the football authorities  and clubs to sort it out?  What about sex abuse cases in other business - is it normal for government to get involved?  I wouldn’t have thought so but maybe I’m wrong, just seems like an excuse for cheap political point scoring to me. 

I’d quite like them to express a bit of sympathy. Surely they could do that without crossing the line legally. 

[XB52]

8 hours ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Because the Scottish Government has said it wants to stop child abuse. 

 

There are also national inquires into child abuse but somehow Celtic is separate. 

 

I can only think the SNP doesn't want to upset Celtic supporters - maybe their polling has them as strong Independence supporters. 

Not political but..... 😂😂

[XB52]

8 hours ago, john thomas said:

You are either being deliberately obtuse or just plain stupid .

I suspect the former .

There is an ongoing court case is there not ?

No subject is too serious not to have a go at our FM

[Fozzyonthefence]

40 minutes ago, john thomas said:

Absolutely correct but you do know you are wasting your time ?

Of course.  This thread is a wet dream to some posters - an opportunity to have a go at Celtic and the SNP all in one go.  Some are clearly only interested in the possibility of Celtic being sued for millions and couldn’t give a shiny shite about any possible comfort or redress to the actual victims. 

[Fozzyonthefence]

33 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

I’d quite like them to express a bit of sympathy. Surely they could do that without crossing the line legally. 

Do we know they haven’t privately?  All seems a bit pointless to me though during an ongoing legal case.  
 

I also happen to think it is an issue for football to sort out not government but maybe it’s something the SG will get involved in after the trials with an enquiry, I don’t know.   We’re talking about crimes committed half a century ago though when measures in place for organisations who employ people dealing with children were nowhere near as stringent as they are now.  Things have already changed regarding legislation / employment law. 
 

What I’d like to see though is the football clubs taking some ownership of this and showing genuine empathy instead of shamefully trying to sweep it all under the carpet, hiding behind separate legal entity technicalities.  Celtic and Rangers showing yet again that they really are two cheeks of the same arse. 

[Sir PH]

57 minutes ago, Fozzyonthefence said:

Of course.  This thread is a wet dream to some posters - an opportunity to have a go at Celtic and the SNP all in one go.  Some are clearly only interested in the possibility of Celtic being sued for millions and couldn’t give a shiny shite about any possible comfort or redress to the actual victims. 

Can you tell us why the SNP excluded sporting and religious organisations from its report into child abuse in Scotland? Many have asked the question but get no answer or blocked on Twitter. 

[Sir PH]

44 minutes ago, Fozzyonthefence said:

Do we know they haven’t privately?  All seems a bit pointless to me though during an ongoing legal case.  
 

I also happen to think it is an issue for football to sort out not government but maybe it’s something the SG will get involved in after the trials with an enquiry, I don’t know.   We’re talking about crimes committed half a century ago though when measures in place for organisations who employ people dealing with children were nowhere near as stringent as they are now.  Things have already changed regarding legislation / employment law. 
 

What I’d like to see though is the football clubs taking some ownership of this and showing genuine empathy instead of shamefully trying to sweep it all under the carpet, hiding behind separate legal entity technicalities.  Celtic and Rangers showing yet again that they really are two cheeks of the same arse. 

Kids were being abused at Celtic in the 90s. Go and do some research before spouting ignorant nonsense. You can start here...

 

https://mobile.twitter.com/Spotlight_CFC66

Edited September 30, 2022 by Sir PH

[GinRummy]

54 minutes ago, Fozzyonthefence said:

Do we know they haven’t privately?  All seems a bit pointless to me though during an ongoing legal case.  
 

I also happen to think it is an issue for football to sort out not government but maybe it’s something the SG will get involved in after the trials with an enquiry, I don’t know.   We’re talking about crimes committed half a century ago though when measures in place for organisations who employ people dealing with children were nowhere near as stringent as they are now.  Things have already changed regarding legislation / employment law. 
 

What I’d like to see though is the football clubs taking some ownership of this and showing genuine empathy instead of shamefully trying to sweep it all under the carpet, hiding behind separate legal entity technicalities.  Celtic and Rangers showing yet again that they really are two cheeks of the same arse. 

No we absolutely don’t know that but some of the victims feeling the government are falling short with their response shouldn’t be dismissed. If I were first minister I don’t know how I’d feel about blocking a child abuse victim on social media. I do broadly agree with what you’re saying though especially the part about clubs taking ownership. 
 

 

Edited September 30, 2022 by GinRummy

[Sherbet]

Celtic and the SG both in denial to any accusations.  Not our fault, blame everybody else

[Fozzyonthefence]

28 minutes ago, Sir PH said:

Kids were being abused at Celtic in the 90s. Go and do some research before spouting ignorant nonsense. You can start here...

 

https://mobile.twitter.com/Spotlight_CFC66

So you’re arguing some of these crimes weren’t committed 50 years ago?  Not sure what your point is really. Even the 90’s is 30 years ago.  I’m not trying to trivialise any of it, just pointing out that most of these crimes were committed a long time ago, things have changed.  Victims are still entitled to justice though, let the courts get on with it.