Irving - signs for SK Austria Klagenfurt ( updated )

[Des Lynam]

16 minutes ago, Heartsofgold said:

This Irvine deal reeks of his agent engineering him a shite move just to get round the maximum training compensation rules.

I honestly think it was as simple as Robbie and Joe not rating Irving enough to give him the deal he wanted. 

[johnthomas]

1 hour ago, Last Laff said:

 

It was reported in all the news at the time he handed a transfer request because they turned down an offer in the region of £3m from Birmingham.

£3m now . At this rate it'll be 10 by lunchtime

[soonbe110]

1 hour ago, Last Laff said:

 

It was reported in all the news at the time he handed a transfer request because they turned down an offer in the region of £3m from Birmingham.

Maybe he handed in a transfer request because he would be on 3 or 4 times the salary at Birmingham? He wouldn’t care what the fee was to be honest. I could believe Birmingham wanted to sign him. I could believe he wanted to go. I could believe that Birmingham offered them £0.5m now for him with add ons reaching £3m when has played x hundred games for them, they are in the EPL and he has fifty caps. I have a hard time believing Birmingham would have offered £3m straight up for him. 

[soonbe110]

26 minutes ago, Heartsofgold said:

This Irvine deal reeks of his agent engineering him a shite move just to get round the maximum training compensation rules.

Anyone know who his agent is? 

[Unknown user]

Just now, soonbe110 said:

Anyone know who his agent is? 

 

I forget the name, german though IIRC

[soonbe110]

1 minute ago, Smithee said:

 

I forget the name, german though IIRC

👍

[Nookie Bear]

16 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

I forget the name, german though IIRC

Turkish/German as well, I think?

[Heartsofgold]

23 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

Anyone know who his agent is? 

I know he's German and is based on Cologne.

[Unknown user]

5 minutes ago, Nookie Bear said:

Turkish/German as well, I think?

I don't really remember, I just remember the chat about him getting a german agent a few months ago. There is a vague bell ringing but very vague

[tokyowalnut]

Good luck to him. If it works out well he could find himself in the Bundesliga within 2 or 3 years. May as well try something different to Scotland. Also, who cares if money was a big incentive for him, a short career he may as well make what he can. 

However, to caveat the above. I thought he was really poor last season when he should really have been pushing to stand out in games. He doesn’t seem to have the personality to make demands of the players around him. 

 

 

[Section Q]

If Irving was only on £495 a week as is claimed on here, then good luck to him for leaving for what I presume is a more livable wage. Damour must be on several times that amaount and isnt considered worthy of a game. 

[sadj]

31 minutes ago, Section Q said:

If Irving was only on £495 a week as is claimed on here, then good luck to him for leaving for what I presume is a more livable wage. Damour must be on several times that amaount and isnt considered worthy of a game. 

Really , expect better than that from you Q

[sadj]

2 hours ago, S Form said:

An offer ‘in the region of £3m’. We would have to see the details of this offer to see exactly how much it was worth to Hibs. As I said, he and his teammates are wildly over valued by some sections of the media. It appears any concrete bids are far lower than Hibs expectations.

Tbf to Bongo an offer in the region of 3m could be 500k. Just as a bid of 75m would be in the region of 100m 👍🏻

[S Form]

2 minutes ago, sadj said:

Tbf to Bongo an offer in the region of 3m could be 500k. Just as a bid of 75m would be in the region of 100m 👍🏻

Very true.

[Section Q]

55 minutes ago, sadj said:

Really , expect better than that from you Q

👍

[Francis Albert]

2 hours ago, Des Lynam said:

I honestly think it was as simple as Robbie and Joe not rating Irving enough to give him the deal he wanted. 

Wouldn't be a 63 page thread if people settled for the obvious.

I looked back to see when the thread started and it is sad that Irving has gone from being highly regarded by most posters to a has-been for many in less than 6 months. Who is to blame is not obvious. But the development of academy graduates is clearly an issue.

[sadj]

15 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Wouldn't be a 63 page thread if people settled for the obvious.

I looked back to see when the thread started and it is sad that Irving has gone from being highly regarded by most posters to a has-been for many in less than 6 months. Who is to blame is not obvious. But the development of academy graduates is clearly an issue.

How is the development of academy graduates clearly an issue?

[Francis Albert]

2 hours ago, sadj said:

How is the development of academy graduates clearly an issue?

Clearly the record of academy graduates progressing successfully to the first team over the last decade and more. 

 

I thought I might be criticised for a statement of the bleeding obvious!

[sadj]

20 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Clearly the record of academy graduates progressing successfully to the first team over the last decade and more. 

 

I thought I might be criticised for a statement of the bleeding obvious!

Progressing successfully though. How do you define that? Is there many more at other clubs , how do those clubs compare with us. Its very much a subjective question. Vlad absolutely ****ed the academy so anyone coming through now is really the start of what would be the rebuilt academy. Weve put Naismith in place to manage that development too so clearly the club feel now is the time to be focussing on that. We will never produce lots of players from our academy who make it big (if thats how you define successful) very few academys every will

[Francis Albert]

55 minutes ago, sadj said:

Progressing successfully though. How do you define that? Is there many more at other clubs , how do those clubs compare with us. Its very much a subjective question. Vlad absolutely ****ed the academy so anyone coming through now is really the start of what would be the rebuilt academy. Weve put Naismith in place to manage that development too so clearly the club feel now is the time to be focussing on that. We will never produce lots of players from our academy who make it big (if thats how you define successful) very few academys every will

Cochrane, Hickey, Irving just in the last few months gone. I could add at least a dozen more who have looked good when first introduced to the first team but soon fizzled out.

I define successful as making a significant contribution to the first team and possibly therefore having some transfer value.

How do you define it and what successes can you cite? 

Recent new appointments and reorganisation suggest my view may be shared by the club. Belatedly in my opinion.

[sadj]

23 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Cochrane, Hickey, Irving just in the last few months gone. I could add at least a dozen more who have looked good when first introduced to the first team but soon fizzled out.

I define successful as making a significant contribution to the first team and possibly therefore having some transfer value.

How do you define it and what successes can you cite? 

Recent new appointments and reorganisation suggest my view may be shared by the club. Belatedly in my opinion.

Im not so sure its belated , id suggest its almost been the process to get to here. The academy takes time to be at a production point. Lots of players fizzle out. Thats the nature of football. Its very hard to succeed to a high level. It requires a lot from the player too. Hickey has that , does Irving 🤷🏻‍♂️ , Cochrane certainly didn’t. He may well gain it from now on but hes lost some good formative years. You can take a player in the reserves , training , ability wise who looks banging and put them in any first team and it doesnt work because of them. Wighton is a great example. Personally I don’t feel Irving is a loss nor Cochrane and Hickey we got money for to a good team where he can move forward. I think he left at the right time for both us and him. 
 

I am not looking to give successes or failures over the last 20years for the reasons i gave. For what its worth I would agree that is what should define success but again its a broad spectrum. I do think we are at a crossroads now and need to do the right things for players to take that next step which I think we have/are doing. that is as a natural progression of the academy starting to produce what it should.
 

All the shite Bongo etc post about how awful we are at everything and anything is lapped up on here rather than taken with a pinch of salt. Buzzbomb ripped into the club the other day about Irving. A player who clearly wants to try his hand in Germany and may wel make the most of that. He was never going to be a huge part of us unless he improves the failings in his game. There is a lot of negative for being negative on here with no thought of maybe thats not quite accurate. For instance I know two or three players who have come in love Robbie and is methods , ethos and his aims for the club. I know from the horses mouth Robbies aims for the club and indeed ABs but if i repeat them id be ripped apart as naaaa thats not true Hearts are shit because Hearts. Others would go ok we know he knows a bit ill take that on board and form my own opinions based on that and others comments. There is bitterness in a lot of posters posts. Be that they arent jambos , they are passionate for Rangers and Hearts are a second thought , they are wanting a return to the terraces of the 70s or maybe they are too young to remember its not always 2006. 
 

Anyway Im digressing , I think we need to wait and see , none of us and I include myself , Bongo and other people know the ins and outs of the academy , JS or RNs work behind the scenes. 

[Francis Albert]

5 minutes ago, sadj said:

Im not so sure its belated , id suggest its almost been the process to get to here. The academy takes time to be at a production point. Lots of players fizzle out. Thats the nature of football. Its very hard to succeed to a high level. It requires a lot from the player too. Hickey has that , does Irving 🤷🏻‍♂️ , Cochrane certainly didn’t. He may well gain it from now on but hes lost some good formative years. You can take a player in the reserves , training , ability wise who looks banging and put them in any first team and it doesnt work because of them. Wighton is a great example. Personally I don’t feel Irving is a loss nor Cochrane and Hickey we got money for to a good team where he can move forward. I think he left at the right time for both us and him. 
 

I am not looking to give successes or failures over the last 20years for the reasons i gave. For what its worth I would agree that is what should define success but again its a broad spectrum. I do think we are at a crossroads now and need to do the right things for players to take that next step which I think we have/are doing. that is as a natural progression of the academy starting to produce what it should.
 

All the shite Bongo etc post about how awful we are at everything and anything is lapped up on here rather than taken with a pinch of salt. Buzzbomb ripped into the club the other day about Irving. A player who clearly wants to try his hand in Germany and may wel make the most of that. He was never going to be a huge part of us unless he improves the failings in his game. There is a lot of negative for being negative on here with no thought of maybe thats not quite accurate. For instance I know two or three players who have come in love Robbie and is methods , ethos and his aims for the club. I know from the horses mouth Robbies aims for the club and indeed ABs but if i repeat them id be ripped apart as naaaa thats not true Hearts are shit because Hearts. Others would go ok we know he knows a bit ill take that on board and form my own opinions based on that and others comments. There is bitterness in a lot of posters posts. Be that they arent jambos , they are passionate for Rangers and Hearts are a second thought , they are wanting a return to the terraces of the 70s or maybe they are too young to remember its not always 2006. 
 

Anyway Im digressing , I think we need to wait and see , none of us and I include myself , Bongo and other people know the ins and outs of the academy , JS or RNs work behind the scenes. 

I am tempted to say thanks Robbie but will resist temptation despite Oscar Wilde's advice!

[Guest ToqueJambo]

On 23/06/2021 at 04:31, Hearts1975 said:

If that’s true then maybe he wasn’t guaranteed playing time but he was looking for it - maybe he isn’t part of the master plan given the monetary offer that was proposed by the club 

 

Could be a number of things. I can’t remember who posted but an unconfirmed “ITK” said that he wasn’t happy with his playing role that was given to him when he played 

 

All subjective. It’s unfortunate but not all young players will make it. He had obvious potential but at the same time wasn’t consistent enough In my humble opinion. 
 

Will reserve judgement on this one but hope he does well with his new venture. 

 

 

That would be weird because he was given the role he's best suited for and his form in it earned him a place in the Championship team of the season, Scotland recognition and his supposed dream move to Germany.

 

I think we might have to accept that Andy just really, really wanted to play in germany. Fair play to him. he's young enough for it not to work out and he will find a club back here no bother. Whether that club would be as good as Hearts is the big question. And if he does well, then he could do a Gauld or Henderson and build a great career abroad even at 3rd or 2nd tier level.

Edited June 24, 2021 by ToqueJambo

[sadj]

2 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

I am tempted to say thanks Robbie but will resist temptation despite Oscar Wilde's advice!

Fa , Where in that did i say thank Robbie. 

[Shanks]

It’s a difficult situation for the club and our existing players like Irving.  We are asking players like him to sign a contract on X amount + appearance fees, bonuses etc. These players are also expected to play games and drag the club back up to where we should be.

 

They then look across and see players like Damour on huge basic wages and no requirement to make up money with appearance fees or bonuses, just been given huge long term contracts to attract them to the club and then allow them to sit on their arse. 
 

As I said it’s a difficult situation and **** knows what the solution is

[sadj]

34 minutes ago, Shanks said:

It’s a difficult situation for the club and our existing players like Irving.  We are asking players like him to sign a contract on X amount + appearance fees, bonuses etc. These players are also expected to play games and drag the club back up to where we should be.

 

They then look across and see players like Damour on huge basic wages and no requirement to make up money with appearance fees or bonuses, just been given huge long term contracts to attract them to the club and then allow them to sit on their arse. 
 

As I said it’s a difficult situation and **** knows what the solution is

 

Its not a difficult situation , football is a subjective thing when it comes to contracts. Players starting out expecting huge wages are off their heads. You earn that right. There will be very few players with any sort of identical wage structure at the club. Its just how football is. You dont think about it other than to motivate you to push on. 

[Mr Brightside]

Mark Donaldson claims on recent Scarfs around the funnel podcast that Irving was asking for £3.5k per week. If that’s true, I understand Hearts not matching this request.

[TheBigO]

17 hours ago, Shanks said:

It’s a difficult situation for the club and our existing players like Irving.  We are asking players like him to sign a contract on X amount + appearance fees, bonuses etc. These players are also expected to play games and drag the club back up to where we should be.

 

They then look across and see players like Damour on huge basic wages and no requirement to make up money with appearance fees or bonuses, just been given huge long term contracts to attract them to the club and then allow them to sit on their arse. 
 

As I said it’s a difficult situation and **** knows what the solution is

Kinda know what you mean.  It was admitted quite recently we had the wage structure wrong.  Too heavy on the basic, not enough on the bonus.

 

We will have "legacy" players on those types of contracts while trying to negotiate contracts on a new structure of deal with new/renewing players.

 

None of this is easy.  Really isn't.

 

I do just wish we'd value our kids a bit more.  No matter the revisionist pish on this thread since it was clear he wasn't signing, Andy is a talented boy and we should be doing all we can to focus that talent at Hearts.  Ay well, good luck to him and I do think we have people in place at the club now that hopefully we do get more out of the talent we bring through.

[Darth Sidious]

38 minutes ago, Mr Brightside said:

Mark Donaldson claims on recent Scarfs around the funnel podcast that Irving was asking for £3.5k per week. If that’s true, I understand Hearts not matching this request.

 

He has obviously been told by his mate Neilson.  So could be close to the truth and he seemed quite convinced with Hearts response to it as well.

[Francis Albert]

20 minutes ago, Darth Sidious said:

 

He has obviously been told by his mate Neilson.  So could be close to the truth and he seemed quite convinced with Hearts response to it as well.

I thought Donaldson has been based in the States for years. How close is he to Tynecastle events these days? 

Edited June 25, 2021 by Francis Albert

[sadj]

4 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

I thought Donaldson has been based in the States for years. How close is he to Tynecastle events these days? 

close enough

Edited June 25, 2021 by sadj

[Mr Brightside]

5 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

I thought Donaldson has been based in the States for years. How close is he to Tynecastle events these days? 

Close enough to have semi regular phone / text contact with Neilson.

[Mr Brightside]

27 minutes ago, Darth Sidious said:

 

He has obviously been told by his mate Neilson.  So could be close to the truth and he seemed quite convinced with Hearts response to it as well.

Yeah he seemed pretty sure of the details and thought Hearts done the right thing.

[Bazzas right boot]

On 24/06/2021 at 15:18, Francis Albert said:

Clearly the record of academy graduates progressing successfully to the first team over the last decade and more. 

 

I thought I might be criticised for a statement of the bleeding obvious!

 

 

You can only criticise the academy if you knew Irvings full potential was greater than what he has done to date. 

 

For all you know the academy did help him develop, there's no way of really telling either way. 

 

Many of our players from the academy have had careers in professional football so it could be judged successful? 

 

The transition from youth to 1st team needs improvement but is different to academy graduates having an issue as you suggest. 

 

 

 

[Francis Albert]

1 minute ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

 

You can only criticise the academy if you knew Irvings full potential was greater than what he has done to date. 

 

For all you know the academy did help him develop, there's no way of really telling either way. 

 

Many of our players from the academy have had careers in professional football so it could be judged successful? 

 

The transition from youth to 1st team needs improvement but is different to academy graduates having an issue as you suggest. 

 

 

 

My comment was a general one not specific to Irving. Surely we can agree the Academy has not been a success in delivering talent to the first team squad let alone players with transfer value. I assume new organisation and appointments mean that view is shared by the club.

[Bazzas right boot]

46 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

My comment was a general one not specific to Irving. Surely we can agree the Academy has not been a success in delivering talent to the first team squad let alone players with transfer value. I assume new organisation and appointments mean that view is shared by the club.

 

Agree  and imo the academy set up in general is flawed. 

Not many clubs have nurtured young  talent then had a significant on the field or financial benefit. 

 

The numbers are low in general. 

 

In regards to Irving imo  it could just be that he's very average player. 

 

[Francis Albert]

6 minutes ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

Agree  and imo the academy set up in general is flawed. 

Not many clubs have nurtured young  talent then had a significant on the field or financial benefit. 

 

The numbers are low in general. 

 

In regards to Irving imo  it could just be that he's very average player. 

 

Unless I am missing someone, currently the two relatively recent ex-Hearts players who have played at at a  higher level are Callum Paterson and Aaron Hickey. The former was a product of Tynecastle Boys Club and the latter mainly of the Celtic Academy. You have to wonder if pumping some money into say Tynecastle and Salvesens Boys Clubs  plus a better scouting system would not provide better returns than the Academy has.

[Bazzas right boot]

1 minute ago, Francis Albert said:

Unless I am missing someone, currently the two relatively recent ex-Hearts players who have played at at a  higher level are Callum Paterson and Aaron Hickey. The former was a product of Tynecastle Boys Club and the latter mainly of the Celtic Academy. You have to wonder if pumping some money into say Tynecastle and Salvesens Boys Clubs  plus a better scouting system would not provide better returns than the Academy has.

 

Yip. 

Holt, Robinson still kick about and pyrechyoko (sp) have been playing at around our level recently as well. Wallace going back a bit was at QOR recently. 

 

 

I'd do as you say with a link up and put serious effort and financial backing into scouting and getting 19-22 year old released from the bigger clubs. 

 

 

[TheBigO]

1 minute ago, Francis Albert said:

Unless I am missing someone, currently the two relatively recent ex-Hearts players who have played at at a  higher level are Callum Paterson and Aaron Hickey. The former was a product of Tynecastle Boys Club and the latter mainly of the Celtic Academy. You have to wonder if pumping some money into say Tynecastle and Salvesens Boys Clubs  plus a better scouting system would not provide better returns than the Academy has.

Is there  no a bit of a myth with Hickey being a product of Celtic?  Was he not at Hearts, got scouted by them, then came back???  Not making a point or anything, just can't quite remember the deal there.

 

Anyway, you are right. Kinda.  Don't think there's a definite way of doing things that is "right".  We definitely haven't been close, but then I guess it's only probably from now on we can judge.  Paterson, Walker etc for example were product of the "Old" regime.  Hickey more of the new one but even then, it's probably almost only laddies that aren't quite of age yet that are really from the new academy setup.

 

We'll see, I like having an academy, but if we're going to have one, it needs to be the best.  We then need that transition to the first team to be managed perfectly.  Yes personal responsibility is huuuuge but we need to give every kid every chance, and then the ones who are good enough by age 17 and have a real chance, we need to continue to develop every part of their game, not just give them a contract and tell them they're grown-ups now!

[Francis Albert]

7 minutes ago, TheBigO said:

Is there  no a bit of a myth with Hickey being a product of Celtic?  Was he not at Hearts, got scouted by them, then came back???  Not making a point or anything, just can't quite remember the deal there.

 

Anyway, you are right. Kinda.  Don't think there's a definite way of doing things that is "right".  We definitely haven't been close, but then I guess it's only probably from now on we can judge.  Paterson, Walker etc for example were product of the "Old" regime.  Hickey more of the new one but even then, it's probably almost only laddies that aren't quite of age yet that are really from the new academy setup.

 

We'll see, I like having an academy, but if we're going to have one, it needs to be the best.  We then need that transition to the first team to be managed perfectly.  Yes personal responsibility is huuuuge but we need to give every kid every chance, and then the ones who are good enough by age 17 and have a real chance, we need to continue to develop every part of their game, not just give them a contract and tell them they're grown-ups now!

All fair comment. 

Hickey spent four years at Celtic and returned not long before he broke through to the first team so his most important development years were probably at Celtic. 

[TheBigO]

Just now, Francis Albert said:

All fair comment. 

Hickey spent four years at Celtic and returned not long before he broke through to the first team so his most important development years were probably at Celtic. 

Ah OK, ta for that

[Thomaso]

On 24/06/2021 at 00:24, johnthomas said:

Keep hearing this stuff . Rightly or wrongly it would appear the club offered what they thought he was worth . For the boys sake I hope he proves his detractors wrong but if he was the new Fulton (or whoever) I've no doubt he would have been offered a mega contract

Would make no sense otherwise

Maybe the Club were wrong - our dealings with players over the last 5 years have hardly been brilliant have they! 

[Thomaso]

8 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

Unless I am missing someone, currently the two relatively recent ex-Hearts players who have played at at a  higher level are Callum Paterson and Aaron Hickey. The former was a product of Tynecastle Boys Club and the latter mainly of the Celtic Academy. You have to wonder if pumping some money into say Tynecastle and Salvesens Boys Clubs  plus a better scouting system would not provide better returns than the Academy has.

Spot on Franny 👍

[johnthomas]

5 minutes ago, Thomaso said:

Maybe the Club were wrong - our dealings with players over the last 5 years have hardly been brilliant have they! 

Absolutely correct .

If you were to believe what you read on here.

But nobody would be that stupid surely !

[Thomaso]

8 hours ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

Agree  and imo the academy set up in general is flawed. 

Not many clubs have nurtured young  talent then had a significant on the field or financial benefit. 

 

So can we agree that the myth that Levein was doing a “fantastic” job at the academy as spouted by some on here was actually pish? 🤔

[DETTY29]

The success of a youth academy (and I'm not saying Hearts one is) isn't dependent solely on academy players being at Hearts from 7-ish all the way through to first team and never having played or trained at other pro academies or youth clubs.

[Nookie Bear]

1 hour ago, DETTY29 said:

The success of a youth academy (and I'm not saying Hearts one is) isn't dependent solely on academy players being at Hearts from 7-ish all the way through to first team and never having played or trained at other pro academies or youth clubs.

Exactly. For me, when we talk about ‘The Academy’ I am thinking about the transition from being a youth player to a first team player, regardless of when they start the process. 
 

And credit goes to whoever picked up guys like Hickey and CP.

[fila]

Big thread for a someone who looks very average , and has signed for a very average club , which would say the player has very average ambitions for his career 

[smiler]

1 hour ago, fila said:

Big thread for a someone who looks very average , and has signed for a very average club , which would say the player has very average ambitions for his career 

Average type post, imo.

[Thomaso]

5 hours ago, DETTY29 said:

The success of a youth academy (and I'm not saying Hearts one is) isn't dependent solely on academy players being at Hearts from 7-ish all the way through to first team and never having played or trained at other pro academies or youth clubs.

Like Andy Irving……