Irving - signs for SK Austria Klagenfurt ( updated )

[Spellczech]

5 hours ago, fila said:

Big thread for a someone who looks very average , and has signed for a very average club , which would say the player has very average ambitions for his career 

15 years ago fans were only really interested in young players as they turned 18/19 and started pushing for first team squads. Then came Copil and Kostadinov, and his brother who posted on here, about how great he was. Then people were reporting on every reserve game, and age groups and now we have a situation where you hear about players who are about 14!...The internet has created a thirst for information. It's not a bad thing, and I think the ones who take the time to source the info and post it for those wanting to hear it should be appreciated.  However, all this extra news creates a perception that the Academy is chewing up young talent at a prodigious rate when it is probably just doing what it has always done - produced a real gem every 3-4 years and in between you get some duds, some who jump ship early for "bigger things" and some who make it but at a lower level...Nothing has changed except the appetite for over-hyping the youth.

 

One thing I would say is that over the last few years our managers have been given far too much lee-way to apply a scattergun approach in the transfer market. Our DOF should always be asking the Manager/Head Coach to justify every signing, and why there is nobody who can cover an injury or act as backup from the younger players. I think Budge has been far too free with the chequebook and the due diligence performed on signings has not been good enough. This is not the fault of the Academy, and to be fair to the current manager he must've decided that the young wingers used in Levein's last season were not up to it (ie Moore) but I'm not convinced about bringing in 5 of them last season...

Edited June 26, 2021 by Spellczech

[Unknown user]

On 25/06/2021 at 15:28, Smith's right boot said:

 

Many of our players from the academy have had careers in professional football so it could be judged successful? 

 

You reckon? That's what success looks like? It doesn't matter if we produce players for our first team ?

[Francis Albert]

3 hours ago, Spellczech said:

15 years ago fans were only really interested in young players as they turned 18/19 and started pushing for first team squads. Then came Copil and Kostadinov, and his brother who posted on here, about how great he was. Then people were reporting on every reserve game, and age groups and now we have a situation where you hear about players who are about 14!...The internet has created a thirst for information. It's not a bad thing, and I think the ones who take the time to source the info and post it for those wanting to hear it should be appreciated.  However, all this extra news creates a perception that the Academy is chewing up young talent at a prodigious rate when it is probably just doing what it has always done - produced a real gem every 3-4 years and in between you get some duds, some who jump ship early for "bigger things" and some who make it but at a lower level...Nothing has changed except the appetite for over-hyping the youth.

 

One thing I would say is that over the last few years our managers have been given far too much lee-way to apply a scattergun approach in the transfer market. Our DOF should always be asking the Manager/Head Coach to justify every signing, and why there is nobody who can cover an injury or act as backup from the younger players. I think Budge has been far too free with the chequebook and the due diligence performed on signings has not been good enough. This is not the fault of the Academy, and to be fair to the current manager he must've decided that the young wingers used in Levein's last season were not up to it (ie Moore) but I'm not convinced about bringing in 5 of them last season...

What real gems has our Academy produced every three or four years?

Or indeed ever?

[Bazzas right boot]

1 minute ago, Smithee said:

 

You reckon? That's what success looks like? It doesn't matter if we produce players for our first team ?

 

Different issues. 

 

If a young player trained by Hearts has a long career at the top level in that country then it's successful for that player I'd say. 

 

The transition from youth to senior team is a different issue and would need a comparison of other clubs v ours to make a fair judgement. 

 

My opinion on the academy and it's future is above. 

 

 

 

[Unknown user]

1 minute ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

Different issues. 

 

If a young player trained by Hearts has a long career at the top level in that country then it's successful for that player I'd say. 

 

The transition from youth to senior team is a different issue and would need a comparison of other clubs v ours to make a fair judgement. 

 

My opinion on the academy and it's future is above. 

 

If our academy is producing professional footballers, but not for Hearts, then it's 100% not a success

[Francis Albert]

2 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

If our academy is producing professional footballers, but not for Hearts, then it's 100% not a success

Well as a charity I guess it is.

[Bazzas right boot]

1 minute ago, Francis Albert said:

What real gems has our Academy produced every three or four years?

Or indeed ever?

 

What other clubs produced regularly, are we far worse than other clubs?

 

Aberdeen and Hibs, maybe Utd, Dundee, St Johnstone, Killie would be the clubs to compare with? 

 

Hamilton had a few maybe a few years ago. 

 

We've had Patterson and Hickey. 

Hibs, I can't think of one in the past 7/8 years. 

Did Mckenna come through the youth at Aberdeen? 

 

I may be missing obvious players from other clubs. 

 

St mirren got about £300k for McGinn, was he From their youth? 

 

 

[Bazzas right boot]

9 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

If our academy is producing professional footballers, but not for Hearts, then it's 100% not a success

 

 

It would show that it can train and produce players that are good enough for the top flight in Scottish football. 

 

The challenge is to integrate players with enough quality into the first team on a regular basis. 

 

As above, I'd scale back the academy and concentrate on players released from other clubs at the 18-22 age group and tie up with a boys club. 

 

I'm not sure we will ever get a benefit from the academy. 

 

If players are a stand out, they won't sign a contract so they'll leave for a minimum fee and we'll get little game time from them. 

 

The average ones won't peak until 25 plus so don't add anything to us when younger and ultimately leave for first team football. 

 

It's a shit situation all round. 

 

 

Edited June 26, 2021 by Smith's right boot

[Francis Albert]

Just now, Smith's right boot said:

 

What other clubs produced regularly, are we far worse than other clubs?

 

Aberdeen and Hibs, maybe Utd, Dundee, St Johnstone, Killie would be the clubs to compare with? 

 

Hamilton had a few maybe a few years ago. 

 

We've had Patterson and Hickey. 

Hibs, I can't think of one in the past 7/8 years. 

Did Mckenna come through the youth at Aberdeen? 

 

I may be missing obvious players from other clubs. 

 

St mirren got about £300k for McGinn, was he From their youth? 

 

 

Patterson and Hickey came to our Academy as fully developed and made their first team debuts very soon  after arriving. In Hickey s case he was here in his pre-teens but developed to a first team.player at Celtic.

So to repeat, what gems has our Academy developed?

Patterson is an interesting case. A big strong player with big physical presence. Can't recall many if any of our Academy players fitting that description.

[Bazzas right boot]

5 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Patterson and Hickey came to our Academy as fully developed and made their first team debuts very soon  after arriving. In Hickey s case he was here in his pre-teens but developed to a first team.player at Celtic.

So to repeat, what gems has our Academy developed?

Patterson is an interesting case. A big strong player with big physical presence. Can't recall many if any of our Academy players fitting that description.

 

What gems has any academy of similar sized clubs in Scotland produced?

 

I answered your question, you dismissed the two players I mentioned. 

 

Are we far worse than other clubs? 

 

If we aren't, then there are two questions - 

 

Do academy's at clubs like ours benefit the first team enough to justify it? 

 

Why as fans (some) do we expect Hearts to be far better than everyone else and then use it against them If we don't? 

 

Motherwell maybe stand out for youth, but it doesn't seem to improve their first team or give consistency. 

 

Edited June 26, 2021 by Smith's right boot

[Francis Albert]

12 minutes ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

What gems has any academy of similar sized clubs in Scotland produced?

 

I answered your question, you dismissed the two players I mentioned. 

 

Are we far worse than other clubs? 

 

If we aren't, then there are two questions - 

 

Do academy's at clubs like ours benefit the first team enough to justify it? 

 

Why as fans (some) do we expect Hearts to be far better than everyone else and then use it against them If we don't? 

I dismissed your two examples because they weren't developed by our Academy.

I don't follow other clubs enough to say whether or not we are better or worse and haven't expressed a view on that.

I agree with you that we might be better off with another route. Funding boys clubs, a

proper scouting system for Lower  and non-league sides (here and in England) and looking at potential from the multitude of drop outs from other Academies. 

The present route is expensive, wasteful, benefitting other clubs if anyone not us.

 

 

Edited June 26, 2021 by Francis Albert

[Bazzas right boot]

6 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

I dismissed your two examples because they weren't developed by our Academy.

I don't follow other clubs enough to say whether or not we are better or worse and haven't expressed a view on that.

I agree with you that we might be better of with another route. Funding boys clubs, a

proper scouting system for Lower  and non-league sides (here and in England) and looking at potential from the multitude of drop outs from other Academies. 

The present route is expensive, wasteful, benefitting other clubs if anyone not us.

 

 

 

 

If I was seriously looking to debate our youth I'd look into 

 

Other clubs  and 

Players that played at least x amount of games for us. 

Players that played at a certain level. 

Players that went for x amount of money. 

 

If you discount guys like Hickey and Patterson. 

What age group are you going from 8, 10, 12, 14, 16? 

 

If it's the Lower age group then we'd only be hitting that now in terms of benefits to the first team. 

Covid hasn't helped youth / development either. 

 

 

I don't care enough to research that tbh, but do find it amusing folk with no research or context trying to  manoeuvre our youth  success or lack off to have a go at Budge and Bob. 

 

 

 

Edited June 26, 2021 by Smith's right boot

[Saint Jambo]

If Hickey and Paterson don't count as academy successes, presumably we can't expect to see them quoted as examples of recruitment successes next time our scouting comes in for criticism.

 

It's odd that every time they are mentioned in relation to youth development posters will be quick to jump in to explain they don't count as youth development successes, but I've never seen posters jump in to a thread on player recruitment to point them out as successes.

[Unknown user]

3 minutes ago, Saint Jambo said:

If Hickey and Paterson don't count as academy successes, presumably we can't expect to see them quoted as examples of recruitment successes next time our scouting comes in for criticism.

 

It's odd that every time they are mentioned in relation to youth development posters will be quick to jump in to explain they don't count as youth development successes, but I've never seen posters jump in to a thread on player recruitment to point them out as successes.

 

A lad from Tynecastle BC and another who we knew from when he was our player doesn't represent great scouting mate

[Last Laff]

Weren't we told that the time, investment and ££ put into the youth academy which was run down under Romanov was all coming together and all we needed to do is shut out mouth and be patient when Levein was getting it tight before?  That none of us knew what we are talking about and under 12s five years ago will be kicking on the door to the first team going on to earn us millions?

 

So far we've had Hickey, who was at Celtic, came here, back to Celtic for a few years back to us for a year or two and sold on.  Where's all these golden players we got told was going to happen like Cathro/Levein  brought through in Dundee? 

 

Now it's "whats the comparison with other clubs our size" from the same apologists.  Sod the millions invested, Hibs haven't produced anyone 

[Francis Albert]

3 minutes ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

 

If I was seriously looking to debate our youth I'd look into 

 

Other clubs  and 

Players that played at least x amount of games for us. 

Players that played at a certain level. 

Players that went for x amount of money. 

 

If you discount guys like Hickey and Patterson. 

What age group are you going from 8, 10, 12, 14, 16? 

 

If it's the Lower age group then we'd only be hitting that now in terms of benefits to the first team. 

Covid hasn't helped youth / development either. 

 

 

I don't care enough to research that tbh, but do find it amusing folk with no research or context trying to  manoeuvre our youth  success or lack off to have a go at Budge and Bob. 

 

 

 

In certainly did not have a go at Budge or Bob (sorry who?)

 

Patterson wad a product of Tynecastle Boys Club. Hickey spent 4 years in Celtic's academy before joining us very shortly before making his debut for our first team. Perhaps a good example of picking up rejects from other academies? But not really a gem of our academy.

 

Good luck with your desired debate. 

[Last Laff]

5 minutes ago, Saint Jambo said:

If Hickey and Paterson don't count as academy successes, presumably we can't expect to see them quoted as examples of recruitment successes next time our scouting comes in for criticism.

 

It's odd that every time they are mentioned in relation to youth development posters will be quick to jump in to explain they don't count as youth development successes, but I've never seen posters jump in to a thread on player recruitment to point them out as successes.

 

Callum came into the side more than nine years ago. 

[Francis Albert]

8 minutes ago, Saint Jambo said:

If Hickey and Paterson don't count as academy successes, presumably we can't expect to see them quoted as examples of recruitment successes next time our scouting comes in for criticism.

 

It's odd that every time they are mentioned in relation to youth development posters will be quick to jump in to explain they don't count as youth development successes, but I've never seen posters jump in to a thread on player recruitment to point them out as successes.

I just did in my last post. Before I read yours. Successes in recruitment from Tynecastle Boys Club and a reject from another clubs academy.

Edited June 26, 2021 by Francis Albert

[Saint Jambo]

4 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

A lad from Tynecastle BC and another who we knew from when he was our player doesn't represent great scouting mate

 

So if they aren't youth development successes and they aren't player recruitment successes, what are they? Did they just magically materialise in our first team?

[Unknown user]

Just now, Saint Jambo said:

 

So if they aren't youth development successes and they aren't player recruitment successes, what are they? Did they just magically materialise in our first team?

 

I'm not in the argument, I'm just saying they're don't represent great scouting - recruitment and scouting aren't the same thing of course.

 

And that's not to mention that Paterson signed for us 4 years before Budge took over so he doesn't represent anything in the Budge era.

[Lfhearts]

Calum left TBC at 16, I watched that team regularly SRB ignoring facts nothing new there.

[Francis Albert]

6 minutes ago, Saint Jambo said:

 

So if they aren't youth development successes and they aren't player recruitment successes, what are they? Did they just magically materialise in our first team?

Recruitment successes. Not perhaps a resounding success for player recruitment and scouting if we are looking beyond our noses!

 

 

 

 

Edited June 26, 2021 by Francis Albert

[Saint Jambo]

3 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

I'm not in the argument, I'm just saying they're don't represent great scouting - recruitment and scouting aren't the same thing of course.

 

And that's not to mention that Paterson signed for us 4 years before Budge took over so he doesn't represent anything in the Budge era.

 

You think we recruit young players without scouting them?

[Unknown user]

Just now, Saint Jambo said:

 

You think we recruit young players without scouting them?

You think good scouting unearthed a player we already knew about?

 

[Saint Jambo]

2 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Recruitment successes. Not perhaps a resounding success for player recruitment if we are looking beyond our noses!)

 

 

Sorry you've lost me, why aren't they resounding successes? Surely you judge whether they were succesful based on how much they contributed to Hearts either in games played or transfer fee recieved. If Hickey and Paterson aren't resounding succeses it's hard to imagine who would be.

[Saint Jambo]

1 minute ago, Smithee said:

You think good scouting unearthed a player we already knew about?

 

 

Scouting isn't just about going to games hoping to identify players the club isn't aware of. It's also about assessing players the club is already aware if to determine if they are worth signing. Paterson and Hickey will both have beed assessed by our scouts prior to signing. It really amazes me what posters choose to find controversial in a bid to give Hearts as little credit as possible.

[Francis Albert]

10 minutes ago, Saint Jambo said:

 

Sorry you've lost me, why aren't they resounding successes? Surely you judge whether they were succesful based on how much they contributed to Hearts either in games played or transfer fee recieved. If Hickey and Paterson aren't resounding succeses it's hard to imagine who would be.

One was a graduate of Tynecastle Boys Club who we picked up 9 years ago. I would hope we we would always be favourites to pick up a star of Tynecastle Boys Club. Hickey was well known to us. If these are definitions of "resounding successes" in recruitment or scouting it is not surprising they are the only two anyone can up with in the last decade.

Edited June 26, 2021 by Francis Albert

[Francis Albert]

9 minutes ago, Saint Jambo said:

 

Scouting isn't just about going to games hoping to identify players the club isn't aware of. It's also about assessing players the club is already aware if to determine if they are worth signing. Paterson and Hickey will both have beed assessed by our scouts prior to signing. It really amazes me what posters choose to find controversial in a bid to give Hearts as little credit as possible.

Credit had been given for Patterson and Hickey. Is that all there is? And they are not even really relevant to the issue of the output of the Academy which we were discussing.

 

 

[Unknown user]

15 minutes ago, Saint Jambo said:

 

Scouting isn't just about going to games hoping to identify players the club isn't aware of. It's also about assessing players the club is already aware if to determine if they are worth signing. Paterson and Hickey will both have beed assessed by our scouts prior to signing. It really amazes me what posters choose to find controversial in a bid to give Hearts as little credit as possible.

I'm not, I'm just disagreeing with the guy who said they represented success for our scouting. 

 

We already knew Hickey as a quality prospect we'd been unable to keep hold of and Paterson signed 4 years before this regime so no, I don't give our scouting much credit for either.

 

[Saint Jambo]

7 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

One was a graduate of Tynecastle Boys Club who we picked up 9 years ago. I would hope we we would always be favourites to pick up a star of Tynecastle Boys Club. Hickey was well known to us. If these are definitions of "resounding successes" in recruitment or scouting it is not surprising they are the only two anyone can up with in the last decade.

 

You really are desperate to minimise the club credit for anything aren't you. Earlier in the thread you were arguing the only thing the success of the academy could be judged on was those players' contributing to Hearts. Now you want to use a different criteria for judging players recruited to the club so you avoid giving credit. While we might be favourite to sign a player from a local boys club, we need to identify the right one from the thousands available.

 

You can't honestly believe they are the only examples of recruitment successes in the last decade?

 

3 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Credit had been given for Patterson and Hickey. Is that all there is? And they are not even really relevant to the issue of the output of the Academy which we were discussing.

Credit was given only after I pointed out that they aren't normally quoted as successes of our player recruitment. You then tried to minimise that credit by bizarrely arguing they weren't resounding successes.

 

The issue being discussed was Andy Irving's contract situation. Its moved on from that.

 

[StirlingJambo]

Hearts will only receive £60,000 in compensation fees with this move rather than the usual amount.

[Guest ToqueJambo]

It's quite incredible the lengths some supposed Hearts fans are going to to talk down their own club. Insane.

[Francis Albert]

42 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

It's quite incredible the lengths some supposed Hearts fans are going to to talk down their own club. Insane.

Supposed Hearts fans ? Their own club? That sort of chat is truly pathetic..

But congrats. You are a real Hearts fan. In your own  mind at least.

[fila]

17 hours ago, smiler said:

Average type post, imo.

Cheers , was hoping for at least an average mark , to keep par with Andy 

[fila]

13 hours ago, Spellczech said:

15 years ago fans were only really interested in young players as they turned 18/19 and started pushing for first team squads. Then came Copil and Kostadinov, and his brother who posted on here, about how great he was. Then people were reporting on every reserve game, and age groups and now we have a situation where you hear about players who are about 14!...The internet has created a thirst for information. It's not a bad thing, and I think the ones who take the time to source the info and post it for those wanting to hear it should be appreciated.  However, all this extra news creates a perception that the Academy is chewing up young talent at a prodigious rate when it is probably just doing what it has always done - produced a real gem every 3-4 years and in between you get some duds, some who jump ship early for "bigger things" and some who make it but at a lower level...Nothing has changed except the appetite for over-hyping the youth.

 

One thing I would say is that over the last few years our managers have been given far too much lee-way to apply a scattergun approach in the transfer market. Our DOF should always be asking the Manager/Head Coach to justify every signing, and why there is nobody who can cover an injury or act as backup from the younger players. I think Budge has been far too free with the chequebook and the due diligence performed on signings has not been good enough. This is not the fault of the Academy, and to be fair to the current manager he must've decided that the young wingers used in Levein's last season were not up to it (ie Moore) but I'm not convinced about bringing in 5 of them last season...

Good points, agree on the over hyping of young players . I also think that the younger players have been impacted by the poor squad over the last several seasons. To much expectation on them with no real quality to coach and develop them through games or in training 

 

 

[Nookie Bear]

14 hours ago, Last Laff said:

Weren't we told that the time, investment and ££ put into the youth academy which was run down under Romanov was all coming together and all we needed to do is shut out mouth and be patient when Levein was getting it tight before?  That none of us knew what we are talking about and under 12s five years ago will be kicking on the door to the first team going on to earn us millions?

 

So far we've had Hickey, who was at Celtic, came here, back to Celtic for a few years back to us for a year or two and sold on.  Where's all these golden players we got told was going to happen like Cathro/Levein  brought through in Dundee? 

 

Now it's "whats the comparison with other clubs our size" from the same apologists.  Sod the millions invested, Hibs haven't produced anyone 

7 years into the Budge era, multi-millions invested by backers and fans and we are comparing ourselves to Hamilton and St Johnstone. 

 

What a journey 😂

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

It’s truly sad that the culture of excuse making which exists within Tynecastle has extended to sections of our fanbase.

[johnthomas]

16 hours ago, Smithee said:

 

A lad from Tynecastle BC and another who we knew from when he was our player doesn't represent great scouting mate

Think you've just , conclusively , proved Smithee's point

[Phil D. Corners]

14 hours ago, StirlingJambo said:

Hearts will only receive £60,000 in compensation fees with this move rather than the usual amount.

Savage messed up here. 

[DETTY29]

6 minutes ago, Phil D. Corners said:

Savage messed up here. 

Why?

 

If that's the fee for going overseas, then that's the fee.

 

No matter how much we have wasted on experienced pros of late, if Donaldson's figures are true, AI is not worth what was being asked by a guy (or his reps) that is well down Scot Gemmill's list of midfielders for the U21s.

Edited June 27, 2021 by DETTY29

[baron of ness]

9 minutes ago, Phil D. Corners said:

Savage messed up here. 

How has he messed up?

[Unknown user]

14 hours ago, ToqueJambo said:

It's quite incredible the lengths some supposed Hearts fans are going to to talk down their own club. Insane.

 

I'm certainly not, but if someone holds Callum Paterson up as an example of our good scouting it's fair to point out we got him from next door and it was Vlad's scouting anyway, nothing to do with the current regime. In fact, the guy seems to be going to pretty incredible lengths to praise this regime for something they never did.

[Nookie Bear]

Going to be hard to replace Irving for £60k

[davemclaren]

17 minutes ago, Nookie Bear said:

Going to be hard to replace Irving for £60k

If that is the correct figure.
 

Frees up a wage as well, even if it was only £25 a week as alleged on here. 

[Saint Jambo]

1 hour ago, Smithee said:

 

I'm certainly not, but if someone holds Callum Paterson up as an example of our good scouting it's fair to point out we got him from next door and it was Vlad's scouting anyway, nothing to do with the current regime. In fact, the guy seems to be going to pretty incredible lengths to praise this regime for something they never did.

 

I never mentioned "regimes". That was all you. You're still wrong about the role of scouts.

[David McCaig]

2 hours ago, Nookie Bear said:

Going to be hard to replace Irving for £60k

Arguably we've already replaced him with Finlay Pollock.

[Unknown user]

1 hour ago, Saint Jambo said:

 

I never mentioned "regimes". That was all you. You're still wrong about the role of scouts.

 

The conversation is about how the recruitment side of things is doing, not how it was doing in 2010 under a completely different set up

[Saint Jambo]

25 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

The conversation is about how the recruitment side of things is doing, not how it was doing in 2010 under a completely different set up

Nope. You've just made that up too.

[Nookie Bear]

1 hour ago, David McCaig said:

Arguably we've already replaced him with Finlay Pollock.

We need starters as well though. 

[Last Laff]

39 minutes ago, Saint Jambo said:

Nope. You've just made that up too.

 

You added Paterson as part of your argument.  Hearts have brought through  no players through the academy that have manged to establish a strong starting position in the first team since Budge and Levein revamped the department.