*** Other Scottish football match thread, for anyone who gives a ****

[Stu_HMFC]

5 minutes ago, gregzy2k7 said:

Don't really care about league cup now tbh but isn't it just so predictable that the old firm are kept apart again, it's as if the powers that be are already salivating over a potential old firm final. It's probably not but just feels so corrupt at times.

Still bugs me we haven’t won it since the 60s

[1971fozzy]

I wish the hobos got st Johnstone as that would of been comedy gold again , but Sevco will destroy them. Just a shame they will make money with the pooled gates

Edited September 23, 2021 by 1971fozzy

[GinRummy]

9 minutes ago, Fozzyonthefence said:

**** me, you’re all over the place 🤣. You were claiming earlier that it was damaging the game because it was an advantage to the OF.  So to be clear - are you seriously saying that, on the one hand,  3 stands to the OF is an advantage to them but on the the other hand not having 3 isn’t a leveller for the smaller team?  Do you understand what contradiction means?

 

I would have thought that having more  away fans might be an advantage at some games but the evidence last season would suggest that’s not the case.  Certainly Rangers seem to be more comfortable with no fans, maybe their players just can’t handle the pressure of playing in front of big crowds, who knows. Also, if you look at Hearts, we’re generally always shite away from home despite having a good following.  Football isn’t as simple as the team with the most fans wins.

It is an advantage to the old firm but not a leveller if there are no crowds as the old firm have many other advantages. 
 

I’ll try for a 4th time. Is having more fans of your club at games a benefit to teams or not? It’s a really straightforward question that you seem determined to avoid. Yes or no?

 

the last sentence shows how utterly desperate your getting 😂 nobody has said that. 
 

 

 

Edited September 23, 2021 by GinRummy

[Malinga the Swinga]

25 minutes ago, Bongo 1874 said:

Jack Ross showing Robbie how to finish a game of football within 45 mins 😂😉. 

 

Fans are singing Hibs are going to hampden. 

Pathetic but expected. Pining for Stendel has rotted your brain, presuming you ever had one.

 

[copa-mundial]

Is it just me, or are celtic being drawn against the lowest ranked sides, from about the last 16 onwards in both Cup competitions? 

 

Seems to be a running trend for a few seasons now. 

 

Or am I just being paranoid?

[Naisys Tackle]

4 minutes ago, copa-mundial said:

Is it just me, or are celtic being drawn against the lowest ranked sides, from about the last 16 onwards in both Cup competitions? 

 

Seems to be a running trend for a few seasons now. 

 

Or am I just being paranoid?

 

When they drew us we weren't lowest ranked. 

[Hmfc1965]

9 minutes ago, sadj said:

No thats not what Im saying. Everything is OF centric , these teams are complicit in the reasons Scottish football lacks competitiveness. Instead of short term greed , long term vision would allow us to possibly reach a place where teams like Livi and St Johnstone can afford better players as they play in a more competitive league that means not relying on OF fans to fund them. Sadly we will never know because they wont risk the OF £

 

That's not at all what you first said.

how do St Johnstone benefit from a more competitive league if they have smaller crowds.

[gregzy2k7]

4 minutes ago, Stu_HMFC said:

Still bugs me we haven’t won it since the 60s

Yeah it bugs me too but we've just been so poor in it for so long, I'm beginning to actually hate it now, I was at the cup final in 2013 and that just put the nail in the coffin for me, if we can't beat st minging in a final then who can we beat to win this wretched cup? It's just so frustrating. I much prefer the scottish cup where our record is a hell of a lot better for reasons unknown.

[Morgan]

Och well, Old Firm Final then?

 

 

[Fozzyonthefence]

2 minutes ago, sadj said:

No thats not what Im saying. Everything is OF centric , these teams are complicit in the reasons Scottish football lacks competitiveness. Instead of short term greed , long term vision would allow us to possibly reach a place where teams like Livi and St Johnstone can afford better players as they play in a more competitive league that means not relying on OF fans to fund them. Sadly we will never know because they wont risk the OF £

 

In league terms, Livi and St Johnstone will never, ever be competitive with the OF.  In one off cup games or the occasional league game maybe. 
 

What would you suggest their long term vision should be?  How does a team with a tiny fan base start getting 10k through the gates regularly?

 

The problem Scottish football has is that it only has 2 big (huge) teams.  Then 3 quite big (big in Scottish terms but not English), then one or two medium teams, and then a lot of teams with a fanbase of 1,000 to 3,000 (English Conference size).  

The problem with whatever league set up we have is we need these English Conference sized clubs to make up the league numbers, whether it’s a 12 team league or 18 (obviously even more of them in a 18).  They need as much extra income as they can get through the gates and you can’t really blame them, whether it’s Livi, St Johnstone, Killie, Morton or whoever from whoring themselves to the OF, as unpalatable as it looks to the outsider. 

[manaliveits105]

another hibsed it will be along shortly 

[sadj]

4 minutes ago, Hmfc1965 said:

That's not at all what you first said.

how do St Johnstone benefit from a more competitive league if they have smaller crowds.

It is what I said. Work it out , all the info is there 👍🏻

[GinRummy]

2 minutes ago, Fozzyonthefence said:

In league terms, Livi and St Johnstone will never, ever be competitive with the OF.  In one off cup games or the occasional league game maybe. 
 

What would you suggest their long term vision should be?  How does a team with a tiny fan base start getting 10k through the gates regularly?

 

The problem Scottish football has is that it only has 2 big (huge) teams.  Then 3 quite big (big in Scottish terms but not English), then one or two medium teams, and then a lot of teams with a fanbase of 1,000 to 3,000 (English Conference size).  

The problem with whatever league set up we have is we need these English Conference sized clubs to make up the league numbers, whether it’s a 12 team league or 18 (obviously even more of them in a 18).  They need as much extra income as they can get through the gates and you can’t really blame them, whether it’s Livi, St Johnstone, Killie, Morton or whoever from whoring themselves to the OF, as unpalatable as it looks to the outsider. 

What do you mean ‘whoring themselves to the OF’?

[Des Lynam]

28 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

They’ll disappear eventually. Because it’s unsustainable. The old firm will just get stronger and stronger though. Aided by clubs like st Johnstone 

How does the old firm get stronger aided by St Johnstone letting their fans in? 

[sadj]

1 minute ago, Fozzyonthefence said:

In league terms, Livi and St Johnstone will never, ever be competitive with the OF.  In one off cup games or the occasional league game maybe. 
 

What would you suggest their long term vision should be?  How does a team with a tiny fan base start getting 10k through the gates regularly?

 

The problem Scottish football has is that it only has 2 big (huge) teams.  Then 3 quite big (big in Scottish terms but not English), then one or two medium teams, and then a lot of teams with a fanbase of 1,000 to 3,000 (English Conference size).  

The problem with whatever league set up we have is we need these English Conference sized clubs to make up the league numbers, whether it’s a 12 team league or 18 (obviously even more of them in a 18).  They need as much extra income as they can get through the gates and you can’t really blame them, whether it’s Livi, St Johnstone, Killie, Morton or whoever from whoring themselves to the OF, as unpalatable as it looks to the outsider. 

Again completely missing the point. Obstinance is catching clearly. I appreciate you wrote a big response but Iv said what I think. Stop associating a crowd of 10k as the fundamental thing. Thats not the point. They dont need to sell 8000 OF fans tickets in a long term vision to be sustainable or potentially more competitive im one off games. You cant blame the clubs. It needs action at the top which sadly wont happen

[sadj]

1 minute ago, GinRummy said:

What do you mean ‘whoring themselves to the OF’?

Sadly if they looked long term they wouldn’t need to be in a better place financially

[Morgan]

Don’t fret chaps, The Vermin will ‘Hibs’ it shortly.

 

 

[JackLadd]

The boy Macey looks a potential liability, good in the derby but not so solid here. 

[Hmfc1965]

3 minutes ago, sadj said:

It is what I said. Work it out , all the info is there 👍🏻

It is all there.

You're post suggested that St Johnstone and Livingston would have smaller crowds. 

That would make the league more competitive because teams like Hearts might be less likely to drop points to them.

I'm still struggling to see what's in it for St Johnstone or Livingston. 

Clearly I'm missing something. 

[GinRummy]

Just now, Des Lynam said:

How does the old firm get stronger aided by St Johnstone letting their fans in? 

It’s not just st Johnstone. Every manager and player will tell you what a boost it is to have a big support cheering them on. 
 

it is a very obvious advantage to any club coming to an away ground to be met with three stands of their own fans. 
 

Anything that gives Rangers and Celtic a further advantage on top of all the other advantages they have is not good imo. 

[sadj]

1 minute ago, Hmfc1965 said:

It is all there.

You're post suggested that St Johnstone and Livingston would have smaller crowds. 

That would make the league more competitive because teams like Hearts might be less likely to drop points to them.

I'm still struggling to see what's in it for St Johnstone or Livingston. 

Clearly I'm missing something. 

Yes you are. 😑

[Fozzyonthefence]

11 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

It is an advantage to the old firm but not a leveller if there are no crowds as the old firm have many other advantages. 
 

I’ll try for a 4th time. Is having more fans of your club at games a benefit to teams or not? It’s a really straightforward question that you seem determined to avoid. Yes or no?

 

the last sentence shows how utterly desperate your getting 😂 nobody has said that. 
 

 

 

Oh ffs I answered it in my last post! Read it back. 

 

How can you say with a straight face that 3 stands is an advantage to OF but no fans is not a leveller?! You’ve just completely contradicted yourself! Yes of course they have a financial advantage and that is way, way more important than how many fans they have at an away game. 
 

So, let’s be clear - are you saying that more away fans helps the OF?  But less or no away fans doesn’t disadvantage them?  If you’re criticising Livi, etc for giving away too many OF tickets because it gives the OF an advantage but then say giving them no fans doesn’t level it in their favour then why should they reduce the OF allocation?  You haven’t really thought this through have you?

[Morgan]

2 minutes ago, Hmfc1965 said:

It is all there.

You’re post suggested that St Johnstone and Livingston would have smaller crowds. 

That would make the league more competitive because teams like Hearts might be less likely to drop points to them.

I'm still struggling to see what's in it for St Johnstone or Livingston. 

Clearly I'm missing something. 

👍

[Hmfc1965]

1 minute ago, sadj said:

Yes you are. 😑

But you don't care to explain how.

St Johnstone and Livingston will not be more competitive by getting smaller crowds.

[Des Lynam]

1 minute ago, GinRummy said:

It’s not just st Johnstone. Every manager and player will tell you what a boost it is to have a big support cheering them on. 
 

it is a very obvious advantage to any club coming to an away ground to be met with three stands of their own fans. 
 

Anything that gives Rangers and Celtic a further advantage on top of all the other advantages they have is not good imo. 

Celtic didn’t get that advantage this weekend. And it works both ways as well because St Johnstone won 2 cups last season under their unsustainable model. I get what you’re saying but we are where we are and life isn’t fair. They are maximising the opportunities available to them. 

[sadj]

Just now, Fozzyonthefence said:

Oh ffs I answered it in my last post! Read it back. 

 

How can you say with a straight face that 3 stands is an advantage to OF but no fans is not a leveller?! You’ve just completely contradicted yourself! Yes of course they have a financial advantage and that is way, way more important than how many fans they have at an away game. 
 

So, let’s be clear - are you saying that more away fans helps the OF?  But less or no away fans doesn’t disadvantage them?  If you’re criticising Livi, etc for giving away too many OF tickets because it gives the OF an advantage but then say giving them no fans doesn’t level it in their favour then why should they reduce the OF allocation?  You haven’t really thought this through have you?

Thats easy  3000 cheering you on 800 against youll get a boost

 

300 cheering you on 8000 against theyll get a boost

 

no fans - no boost to either.

 

I think some of you are looking too directly at it rather than the potential benefits to not doing it short term and the potential boosts competitively in Scotland and therefore in turn to these clubs down the road by not relying on the OF poondsss

[Hmfc1965]

1 minute ago, Morgan said:

👍

Predictive texting. 😀

[Hmfc1965]

1 minute ago, sadj said:

Thats easy  3000 cheering you on 800 against youll get a boost

 

300 cheering you on 8000 against theyll get a boost

 

no fans - no boost to either.

 

I think some of you are looking too directly at it rather than the potential benefits to not doing it short term and the potential boosts competitively in Scotland and therefore in turn to these clubs down the road by not relying on the OF poondsss

Trickle down competitiveness?

[Fozzyonthefence]

15 minutes ago, Hmfc1965 said:

That's not at all what you first said.

how do St Johnstone benefit from a more competitive league if they have smaller crowds.

Think he’s suggesting Hearts, Hibs, Aberdeen might but I agree with you - I don’t see how the really small clubs benefit at all. It’s generally about survival for these clubs but Saints have punched well above their weight for the last decade. 

[sadj]

1 minute ago, Hmfc1965 said:

But you don't care to explain how.

St Johnstone and Livingston will not be more competitive by getting smaller crowds.

Kin Ell man , stop focussing on the wrong part. Scottish Football could become more competitive by not just tossing their stands to the OF sometimes a step backward can mean 2steps forward for Scpttish football and in turn them financially.

[Morgan]

Just now, Hmfc1965 said:

Predictive texting. 😀

Guessed that!  👍

[GinRummy]

1 minute ago, Fozzyonthefence said:

Oh ffs I answered it in my last post! Read it back. 

 

How can you say with a straight face that 3 stands is an advantage to OF but no fans is not a leveller?! You’ve just completely contradicted yourself! Yes of course they have a financial advantage and that is way, way more important than how many fans they have at an away game. 
 

So, let’s be clear - are you saying that more away fans helps the OF?  But less or no away fans doesn’t disadvantage them?  If you’re criticising Livi, etc for giving away too many OF tickets because it gives the OF an advantage but then say giving them no fans doesn’t level it in their favour then why should they reduce the OF allocation?  You haven’t really thought this through have you?

I already said no fans is not a leveller because it’s not close to level in the first place. The other advantages the old firm have ensure that but I’ve said it again. 
 

there is nothing contradictory about that. 
 

you trying to narrow the argument to only away fans giving the old form an advantage is something of your invention. 
 

all I said was 3 stands of your own supporters gives you an advantage. 

[Browser]

6 minutes ago, Morgan said:

Don’t fret chaps, The Vermin will ‘Hibs’ it shortly.

 

 

How can they ‘Hibs’ it when they are playing a team that is 99.9% expected to win? 

[sadj]

 

 

1 minute ago, Fozzyonthefence said:

Think he’s suggesting Hearts, Hibs, Aberdeen might but I agree with you - I don’t see how the really small clubs benefit at all. It’s generally about survival for these clubs but Saints have punched well above their weight for the last decade. 

Yes it is because the long term potential benefits are ignored. No one is disputing that. People are trying to explain that there is other ways but it requires these teams to look long term instead of at their next payday from the OF which is essentially their current business model

[Naisys Tackle]

All this extra support helped the old firm last weekend.

 

If diddy clubs want to make more money selling stands I understand why.  Also does good for the economy of diddy towns and cities. 

[Morgan]

Just now, Browser said:

How can they ‘Hibs’ it when they are playing a team that is 99.9% expected to win? 

It’s a term.

 

You’re being pedantic.

 

Who was referring to the semi-final?

 

Not I.

[Fozzyonthefence]

2 minutes ago, sadj said:

Thats easy  3000 cheering you on 800 against youll get a boost

 

300 cheering you on 8000 against theyll get a boost

 

no fans - no boost to either.

 

I think some of you are looking too directly at it rather than the potential benefits to not doing it short term and the potential boosts competitively in Scotland and therefore in turn to these clubs down the road by not relying on the OF poondsss

Yes, so a leveller as the OF lose their so called normal advantage.  Except Gin Rummy is trying to say huge away crowd equals a big advantage but no fans isn’t losing that advantage.  He’s contradicting himself and can’t have it both ways. 

[Naisys Tackle]

4 minutes ago, Browser said:

How can they ‘Hibs’ it when they are playing a team that is 99.9% expected to win? 

 

Hibs it = bottle it/**** up. 

[GinRummy]

7 minutes ago, Des Lynam said:

Celtic didn’t get that advantage this weekend. And it works both ways as well because St Johnstone won 2 cups last season under their unsustainable model. I get what you’re saying but we are where we are and life isn’t fair. They are maximising the opportunities available to them. 

Hang on a second. Celtic have the best away record in the league going back ten years before last season so I hardly think this season negates that. 
 

yes it is unfair. Too many things in the game up here are unfair and the overwhelming majority of them are unfair in the old firms favour. I understand the small clubs are maximising their income. It also gives the old firm an advantage away from home. 
 

 

[Morgan]

Just now, Robbies Tackle said:

 

Hibs it = bottle it/**** up. 

 

[Des Lynam]

1 minute ago, sadj said:

 

 

Yes it is because the long term potential benefits are ignored. No one is disputing that. People are trying to explain that there is other ways but it requires these teams to look long term instead of at their next payday from the OF which is essentially their current business model

What’s the long term solution? A st Johnstone fan breeding programme? 🤣

[GinRummy]

1 minute ago, Fozzyonthefence said:

Yes, so a leveller as the OF lose their so called normal advantage.  Except Gin Rummy is trying to say huge away crowd equals a big advantage but no fans isn’t losing that advantage.  He’s contradicting himself and can’t have it both ways. 

No I’m not 😂. As I clearly said twice they already have huge advantages so no crowds does not level anything. Nonetheless, as any manager or player will tell you, a big crowd of their own supporters is an advantage. 

[GinRummy]

3 minutes ago, Des Lynam said:

What’s the long term solution? A st Johnstone fan breeding programme? 🤣

😮 please god no. 

[Fozzyonthefence]

2 minutes ago, sadj said:

 

 

Yes it is because the long term potential benefits are ignored. No one is disputing that. People are trying to explain that there is other ways but it requires these teams to look long term instead of at their next payday from the OF which is essentially their current business model

These diddy teams don’t have long term potential, that’s the problem with Scottish football.  We only have 5 clubs with potential.  It’s all about self interest.  It doesn’t matter to Livi or St Johnstone if Hearts or Hibs can maybe put in a half arsed league challenge and reduce the gap from 30 points to 15.  If I was a Saints fan now I’d be looking forward to telling my disbelieving grandchildren in 20 years how I lived through the golden era when they won 3 trophies.  Like us in the Romanov years,  they won’t give a shiny shite how it was achieved. 

[sadj]

7 minutes ago, Des Lynam said:

What’s the long term solution? A st Johnstone fan breeding programme? 🤣

Jesus the horror that conjurs up. 🤣

[Under the floodlight]

9 minutes ago, Des Lynam said:

What’s the long term solution? A st Johnstone fan breeding programme? 🤣

Aye, but who's gonna volunteer for that.

[GinRummy]

11 minutes ago, Fozzyonthefence said:

These diddy teams don’t have long term potential, that’s the problem with Scottish football.  We only have 5 clubs with potential.  It’s all about self interest.  It doesn’t matter to Livi or St Johnstone if Hearts or Hibs can maybe put in a half arsed league challenge and reduce the gap from 30 points to 15.  If I was a Saints fan now I’d be looking forward to telling my disbelieving grandchildren in 20 years how I lived through the golden era when they won 3 trophies.  Like us in the Romanov years,  they won’t give a shiny shite how it was achieved. 

Your grandchildren won’t give a **** because they’ll be Rangers or Celtic fans. 

Edited September 23, 2021 by GinRummy

[colinmaroon]

Just now, jonnothejambo said:

 

He's as solid as a post vindaloo toaly. 

 

Fluke performance against us.

 

 

Average finishing made him look good.

 

GMS shot was well inside far post and why oh why don't they do a Robbo and hit the ball high over keepers arm.

[Fozzyonthefence]

6 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

No I’m not 😂. As I clearly said twice they already have huge advantages so no crowds does not level anything. Nonetheless, as any manager or player will tell you, a big crowd of their own supporters is an advantage. 

Ok, I’ll play Devil’s advocate and go along with the huge crowd = extra advantage.  So, surely you have to concede that taking away that huge crowd = taking away that extra advantage (I’m not talking about taking away their financial advantage or their players being far better).  
 

You’re the one saying that giving them more fans is giving them more advantage.  So going back to a smaller allocation (or zero allocation) is taking away that extra advantage (or in other words, levelling the playing field a bit but obviously not in financial terms).  
 

Think we’re getting too tied up in what I was meaning by “levelling” to be honest. 

[John Findlay]

I maybe mistaken here but, those arguing about the likes of St Johnstone and Livingston giving the OF three stands for their supporters weren't around in the days before all seated stadia.

The OF having more supporters at the likes of the old Muirton Park, East End Park  Starks Park, and even Tynecastle and Easter Road was not uncommon.

Quite a few of us posting on here can remember the days when the OF brought through anywhere between 15,000 and 20,000+ to both Tynecastle and Easter Road. Now the biggest difference between now and then was that clubs shared the gate money from league games along with cup games.

The biggest change that helped the OF the most, was the agreement for clubs to keep all monies from home league games. This benefits the OF the most as they have stadiums that hold 52,000 and 60,000 respectively. The next largest after that is I believe Pittodrie at 21,000+. Now how often is Tynecastle, Pittodrie, Easter Road, Tannadice, McDermid Park, Tannadice, Dens Psrk, Fir Park, St Mirren and Ross County grounds full a season, compared to Celtic Park and Ibrox?

Having a pop at clubs for taking the OF pound when they play them at home is futile. The OF are already away out in front with their stadiums being at least 98% full 19 times a league season.

For Celtic that is 19 x 40,000 more than Pittodrie and for Sevco its 19 x 30,000 more than Pittodrie. That is one he'll of a financial advantage to have to begin with.