GinRummy Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 1 minute ago, Forever Hearts said: Why is it unsustainable? There will always be Old Firm fans wanting tickets for games. Because it’s an unreliable income stream and relies on st Johnstone staying in the league and in the top 6. That’s unsustainable because they are not increasing their own fan base or their own customer base. They are merely delaying the inevitable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hearts007 Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 Hobos been on the rack this whole half Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fozzyonthefence Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 6 minutes ago, GinRummy said: No, it’s better for st Johnstone short term. What happens when they get relegated. What happens when they can’t get the three stands filled four times a season? It’s a classic example of short termism. The same that happens to all the other teams that get relegated. They have to cut their cloth accordingly (as we did too). Not really sure why you have a problem maximising their income while they are up there though. What would your solution be - minimise income through pish crowds? That would be an interesting business model that Budge disagrees with too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Hardy’s Dug Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 (edited) Folk can moan about it all they like but we need VAR up in Scotland. Its the lesser of two evils. Edited September 23, 2021 by Tom Hardy’s Dug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GinRummy Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 3 minutes ago, Fozzyonthefence said: Ok I’ll spell this out clearly for you because you’re obviously struggling with simple logic. Smaller clubs generate a lot more income by maximising ticket sales by giving the OF the majority of their ground (and not just with the OF, Livi do it with Hearts and Hibs too and I’ve seen us at McDiarmid Park with 6k fans out of a 10k crowd. It’s simple economics. More income = bigger player budget and if the football recruitment side is doing its job then they should be able to afford better players. If you can’t grasp that I ****ing despair. Holy ****. What makes you think I don’t get that. It doesn’t and will never enable these clubs to compete with the old firm. What it does is hand the old firm yet another advantage in a long long list of advantages. The fact you despair at something I’ve already said I understand yet completely refuse to acknowledge the further advantage given to them makes me despair. Prattling on about livi giving hearts extra tickets is barely relevant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fozzyonthefence Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 5 minutes ago, GinRummy said: Because it’s an unreliable income stream and relies on st Johnstone staying in the league and in the top 6. That’s unsustainable because they are not increasing their own fan base or their own customer base. They are merely delaying the inevitable. They’ve managed to stay in the Premiership a lot longer than us. We’ve been relegated twice which suggests our strategy was unsustainable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GinRummy Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 2 minutes ago, Fozzyonthefence said: The same that happens to all the other teams that get relegated. They have to cut their cloth accordingly (as we did too). Not really sure why you have a problem maximising their income while they are up there though. What would your solution be - minimise income through pish crowds? That would be an interesting business model that Budge disagrees with too. You win mate. Let’s hope for a future where every game is a home game for the old firm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fozzyonthefence Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 Just now, GinRummy said: Holy ****. What makes you think I don’t get that. It doesn’t and will never enable these clubs to compete with the old firm. What it does is hand the old firm yet another advantage in a long long list of advantages. The fact you despair at something I’ve already said I understand yet completely refuse to acknowledge the further advantage given to them makes me despair. Prattling on about livi giving hearts extra tickets is barely relevant. So less OF fans means the other teams have a better chance of winning the league? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadj Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 24 minutes ago, jonnothejambo said: They sure get a lot of dodgy penalties do the tramps. The Porteous penalty on Saturday wasn't one either. Havent seen that one but the one tonight was levels… Been told three times tonight we should worry about Hibs. They can counter attack but they are at best no better than us. United were awful first half , Hibs got a penalty that wasnt and then United a goal chalked off that looked onside. Theres really been little in this bar the ref and lino Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GinRummy Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 1 minute ago, Fozzyonthefence said: They’ve managed to stay in the Premiership a lot longer than us. We’ve been relegated twice which suggests our strategy was unsustainable. Yup. You’ve won the argument. 👍🏻 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJGJ Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 Fuchs has impressed for Dundee United in midfield Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GinRummy Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 1 minute ago, Fozzyonthefence said: So less OF fans means the other teams have a better chance of winning the league? Yep. More fans is never an advantage. How could I have overlooked that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fozzyonthefence Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 1 minute ago, GinRummy said: Yup. You’ve won the argument. 👍🏻 I know I have. Cheers 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadj Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 2 minutes ago, CJGJ said: Fuchs has impressed for Dundee United in midfield No been hard nobody else on either sides done **** all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GinRummy Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 Just now, Fozzyonthefence said: I know I have. Cheers 👍 Sad to see a hearts fan defending the old firm via st Johnstone but I guess the more grounds they visit with three stands of uglies the better it is for all clubs. All that extra cash swilling around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hearts007 Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 wtf was that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GinRummy Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 6 minutes ago, Fozzyonthefence said: So less OF fans means the other teams have a better chance of winning the league? Show me where I said that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Morgan Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 (edited) So looks like both of us beat Dundee Utd there by a 2 goal margin with each getting a pen. Stats wise though it looks like Hibs have got lucky here, Dundee Utd certainly had more of the game than they did vs us. Edited September 23, 2021 by Arthur Morgan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadj Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 2 minutes ago, Arthur Morgan said: So looks like both of us beat Dundee Utd there by a 2 goal margin with each getting a pen. Stats wise though it looks like Hibs have got lucky here, Dundee Utd certainly had more of the game than they did vs us. Hibs have been pony , Dundee utds defence for the first 👀 then after Mulgrew went off took them a while to sort themselves out at the back. The pen was criminal from Collum , the chalked off goal iv only seen once but looked onside , Hibs have offered nothing second half Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Hardy’s Dug Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 11 minutes ago, Fozzyonthefence said: They’ve managed to stay in the Premiership a lot longer than us. We’ve been relegated twice which suggests our strategy was unsustainable. Well once and that was a result of a complete lack of strategy and a grossly imbalanced spending policy. We’ll never know if we would have been relegated 2 seasons ago as the league was cut short. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fozzyonthefence Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 Just now, GinRummy said: Yep. More fans is never an advantage. How could I have overlooked that. Ok, so can you remind me what happened last season, the only season ever that the OF have had zero fans? Don’t bother, I’ll do it for you. Rangers with no fans were unbeaten. They got 102 points which I think was a record. They finished 39 points ahead of 3rd place Hibs in a season when they had no fan advantage whatsoever. In fact it would appear that Rangers actually perform better with no fans rather than 50k at home or a huge away following. So, Celtic and Rangers with loads of fans home and away win the league. Celtic and Rangers with no fans win the league even more easily. Conclusion? It makes no ****ing difference whatsoever whether they get 3 stands at The Tony Macaroni or MacDiarmid, they’ll win the league anyway. But it does make a difference to these wee teams and I don’t begrudge them trying to make themselves more competitive. But bash on slavering your pish if it makes you feel better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hearts007 Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 1 minute ago, sadj said: Hibs have been pony , Dundee utds defence for the first 👀 then after Mulgrew went off took them a while to sort themselves out at the back. The pen was criminal from Collum , the chalked off goal iv only seen once but looked onside , Hibs have offered nothing second half sums it up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilnunb Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 Yogi Hughes about Hibs on the radio... "Let's hope they get ...oh well, there's no easy ties left with the Old Firm and St Johnstone..." 🤣🤣 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fozzyonthefence Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 8 minutes ago, GinRummy said: Sad to see a hearts fan defending the old firm via st Johnstone but I guess the more grounds they visit with three stands of uglies the better it is for all clubs. All that extra cash swilling around. Personally I enjoyed going to Livi and St Johnstone with 3 stands full of Hearts fans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GinRummy Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 Just now, Fozzyonthefence said: Ok, so can you remind me what happened last season, the only season ever that the OF have had zero fans? Don’t bother, I’ll do it for you. Rangers with no fans were unbeaten. They got 102 points which I think was a record. They finished 39 points ahead of 3rd place Hibs in a season when they had no fan advantage whatsoever. In fact it would appear that Rangers actually perform better with no fans rather than 50k at home or a huge away following. So, Celtic and Rangers with loads of fans home and away win the league. Celtic and Rangers with no fans win the league even more easily. Conclusion? It makes no ****ing difference whatsoever whether they get 3 stands at The Tony Macaroni or MacDiarmid, they’ll win the league anyway. But it does make a difference to these wee teams and I don’t begrudge them trying to make themselves more competitive. But bash on slavering your pish if it makes you feel better. So do you believe more fans is an advantage or nor? That was the question abs not a Covid affected season. Is it an advantage or isn’t if? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GinRummy Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 Just now, Fozzyonthefence said: Personally I enjoyed going to Livi and St Johnstone with 3 stands full of Hearts fans. I’m sure the hearts team enjoy having us there. Probably the same fir the Rangers and Celtic teams when they visit the increasing number of grounds where they occupy three stands. that has been the thrust of the argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fozzyonthefence Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 3 minutes ago, Tom Hardy’s Dug said: Well once and that was a result of a complete lack of strategy and a grossly imbalanced spending policy. We’ll never know if we would have been relegated 2 seasons ago as the league was cut short. Correct and that I think is the first time I have used the “r” word in relation to 2 seasons ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadj Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Fozzyonthefence said: Ok, so can you remind me what happened last season, the only season ever that the OF have had zero fans? Don’t bother, I’ll do it for you. Rangers with no fans were unbeaten. They got 102 points which I think was a record. They finished 39 points ahead of 3rd place Hibs in a season when they had no fan advantage whatsoever. In fact it would appear that Rangers actually perform better with no fans rather than 50k at home or a huge away following. So, Celtic and Rangers with loads of fans home and away win the league. Celtic and Rangers with no fans win the league even more easily. Conclusion? It makes no ****ing difference whatsoever whether they get 3 stands at The Tony Macaroni or MacDiarmid, they’ll win the league anyway. But it does make a difference to these wee teams and I don’t begrudge them trying to make themselves more competitive. But bash on slavering your pish if it makes you feel better. You are completely missing the point here. The financial disparity caused by having a limited number of OF fans would force clubs like Livi and St Johnstone to operate on smaller budgets , that then in turn means clubs with bigger supports (in Scotland fan income is vital as opposed to England where it doesnt matter) would have an advantage. That would surely lead to an increased gap between say Hearts and St Johnstone and possibly a decreased gap between Rangers and Hearts as we would hopefully drop less points against a lower quality of battling team. Would it be shit short term..probably , would it make the game more competitive and therefore in all likelihood more marketable allowing these teams to them get a stronger footing with TV and sponsorship deals moving forward , i think yes. Edited September 23, 2021 by sadj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage Vince Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 25 minutes ago, GinRummy said: Because it’s an unreliable income stream and relies on st Johnstone staying in the league and in the top 6. That’s unsustainable because they are not increasing their own fan base or their own customer base. They are merely delaying the inevitable. They're enjoying the best decade in their history. 😁 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GinRummy Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 2 minutes ago, Fozzyonthefence said: Correct and that I think is the first time I have used the “r” word in relation to 2 seasons ago. Slavering pish I think you called it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShedBoy Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 Tonight just reaffirmed to me that Nisbet is a lazy *******. I see he’s been offered a new deal down the piggery. Would be delightful if he signed it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GinRummy Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 1 minute ago, Savage Vince said: They're enjoying the best decade in their history. 😁 I know. 😂. That’s not because they give the old firm three stands they only started doing that a season or two ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie1874 Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 4 minutes ago, sadj said: You are completely missing the point here. The financial disparity caused by having a limited number of OF fans would force clubs like Livi and St Johnstone to operate on smaller budgets , that then in turn means clubs with bigger supports (in Scotland fan income is vital as opposed to England where it doesnt matter) would have an advantage. That would surely lead to an increased gap between say Hearts and St Johnstone and possibly a decreased gap between Rangers and Hearts as we would hopefully drop less points against a lower quality of battling team. Would it be shit short term..probably , would it make the game more competitive and therefore in all likelihood more marketable allowing these teams to them get a stronger footing with TV and sponsorship deals moving forward , i think yes. Good point, Scottish football decisions tend not to look to the future or betterment of the game long term. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bongo 1874 Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 Jack Ross showing Robbie how to finish a game of football within 45 mins 😂😉. Fans are singing Hibs are going to hampden. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fozzyonthefence Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 2 minutes ago, GinRummy said: So do you believe more fans is an advantage or nor? That was the question abs not a Covid affected season. Is it an advantage or isn’t if? Well it would appear no fans is an advantage to Rangers would it not? They get less points when they have fans, as they will do again this season - did you not understand that point? You would agree they did amazingly well both in the league and Europe last season right? Your argument is that not having 3 stands away is a leveller. So, using your logic, having no stands must be an even bigger disadvantage to them? Yet Rangers were unbeaten. So you believe no Rangers fans would be a big disadvantage to them? Thank god there were no fans last season then, I hate to think how many points Rangers would have got. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GinRummy Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Fozzyonthefence said: Well it would appear no fans is an advantage to Rangers would it not? They get less points when they have fans, as they will do again this season - did you not understand that point? You would agree they did amazingly well both in the league and Europe last season right? Your argument is that not having 3 stands away is a leveller. So, using your logic, having no stands must be an even bigger disadvantage to them? Yet Rangers were unbeaten. So you believe no Rangers fans would be a big disadvantage to them? Thank god there were no fans last season then, I hate to think how many points Rangers would have got. My argument was never that not having three stands away was a leveller. You’ve just made that up. ive asked you a simple question three times. is having more of their own fans at games an advantage to a team. Yes or no? Why are you so desperate not to answer. Edited September 23, 2021 by GinRummy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fozzyonthefence Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 4 minutes ago, GinRummy said: Slavering pish I think you called it. That was you I was referring to. The point still stands, “short term” St Johnstone have managed to stay in the Premiership for the last 13 years, winning 3 cups in the last 7, while we’ve found ourselves in the 2nd tier twice through a mixture of financial mismanagement and football mismanagement, winning no cups in that 7 year period. That short term plan seems to be working pretty well, meanwhile we just embarrass ourselves with our own short term 5 year plans which totally backfire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadj Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 1 minute ago, GinRummy said: My argument was never that not having three stands away was a leveller. You’ve just made that up. ive asked you a simple question three times. is having more of their own fans at games an advantage to a team. Yes or no? Why are you so desperate not to answer. Having zero fans is a leveller to a degree but more often than not the better team will prevail. Having zero away fans and lots of home fans is most definitely a benefit to the home side more often than not esp against the OF imo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GinRummy Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 2 minutes ago, Fozzyonthefence said: That was you I was referring to. The point still stands, “short term” St Johnstone have managed to stay in the Premiership for the last 13 years, winning 3 cups in the last 7, while we’ve found ourselves in the 2nd tier twice through a mixture of financial mismanagement and football mismanagement, winning no cups in that 7 year period. That short term plan seems to be working pretty well, meanwhile we just embarrass ourselves with our own short term 5 year plans which totally backfire. They’ll disappear eventually. Because it’s unsustainable. The old firm will just get stronger and stronger though. Aided by clubs like st Johnstone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DS98 Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 10 minutes ago, Bongo 1874 said: Jack Ross showing Robbie how to finish a game of football within 45 mins 😂😉. Fans are singing Hibs are going to hampden. He also showed you’re hero Stendel how to keep a struggling team in the Premiership. He made it look a piece of piss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GinRummy Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 3 minutes ago, sadj said: Having zero fans is a leveller to a degree but more often than not the better team will prevail. Having zero away fans and lots of home fans is most definitely a benefit to the home side more often than not esp against the OF imo 4 minutes ago, sadj said: Having zero fans is a leveller to a degree but more often than not the better team will prevail. Having zero away fans and lots of home fans is most definitely a benefit to the home side more often than not esp against the OF imo Exactly. Just as giving the old firm a massive allocation benefits them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilnunb Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 Rangers v Hibs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hearts007 Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 Just now, neilnunb said: Rangers v Hibs hobos play like tonight be a landslide for sevco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HMFC01 Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 Rangers v Hibs. Celtic v St Johnstone. League cup semis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theshed Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 2 minutes ago, neilnunb said: Rangers v Hibs Hopefully on a Sunday as no trains to get them to Glasgow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hmfc1965 Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 15 minutes ago, sadj said: You are completely missing the point here. The financial disparity caused by having a limited number of OF fans would force clubs like Livi and St Johnstone to operate on smaller budgets , that then in turn means clubs with bigger supports (in Scotland fan income is vital as opposed to England where it doesnt matter) would have an advantage. That would surely lead to an increased gap between say Hearts and St Johnstone and possibly a decreased gap between Rangers and Hearts as we would hopefully drop less points against a lower quality of battling team. Would it be shit short term..probably , would it make the game more competitive and therefore in all likelihood more marketable allowing these teams to them get a stronger footing with TV and sponsorship deals moving forward , i think yes. So if I've understood you correctly see push teams like S t Johnstone shouldn't try to maximise revenue. this will make Scottish football more competitive because teams like Hearts might be closer to the Old Firm as they're able to take more points off the likes of St Johnstone. okay then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fozzyonthefence Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 3 minutes ago, GinRummy said: My argument was never that not having three stands away was a leveller. You’ve just made that up. ive asked you a simple question three times. is having more of their own fans at games an advantage to a team. Yes or no? Why are you so desperate not to answer. **** me, you’re all over the place 🤣. You were claiming earlier that it was damaging the game because it was an advantage to the OF. So to be clear - are you seriously saying that, on the one hand, 3 stands to the OF is an advantage to them but on the the other hand not having 3 isn’t a leveller for the smaller team? Do you understand what contradiction means? I would have thought that having more away fans might be an advantage at some games but the evidence last season would suggest that’s not the case. Certainly Rangers seem to be more comfortable with no fans, maybe their players just can’t handle the pressure of playing in front of big crowds, who knows. Also, if you look at Hearts, we’re generally always shite away from home despite having a good following. Football isn’t as simple as the team with the most fans wins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregzy2k7 Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 Don't really care about league cup now tbh but isn't it just so predictable that the old firm are kept apart again, it's as if the powers that be are already salivating over a potential old firm final. It's probably not but just feels so corrupt at times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadj Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 1 minute ago, Hmfc1965 said: So if I've understood you correctly see push teams like S t Johnstone shouldn't try to maximise revenue. this will make Scottish football more competitive because teams like Hearts might be closer to the Old Firm as they're able to take more points off the likes of St Johnstone. okay then. No thats not what Im saying. Everything is OF centric , these teams are complicit in the reasons Scottish football lacks competitiveness. Instead of short term greed , long term vision would allow us to possibly reach a place where teams like Livi and St Johnstone can afford better players as they play in a more competitive league that means not relying on OF fans to fund them. Sadly we will never know because they wont risk the OF £ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu_HMFC Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 Rangers V Celtic final Gerrard to win his first domestic cup can’t see anyone winning this apart from them . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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