Wage cut for players and staff (Statement on 24/4)

[Nookie Bear]

1 minute ago, Vlad Magic said:

I’m not prepared to criticise the players just yet. 
 

A decision like the one being asked is difficult to make quickly. Unless of course you are 100% certain you are financially secure enough to do so as is the case with Naismith. 
 

The other players will need to evaluate exactly what there revenues and outgoings are. Do their partners contribute? What are their total monthly liabilities?

 

It would be foolish to simply agree to something that may have significant financial implications further down the line.

 

We also don’t know (as far as I am aware) who or how many have refused or agreed?

 

There appears to be a lot of assumptions being made here.

 

It doesn't look great from the players point of view tbh but i sense they feel they were pushed into a 'take it or leave for nothing' scenario and then, when they saw how other clubs were dealing with the situation they started to get militant.

 

They should be taking a cut and i would hope the peer pressure amongst the players is enough to make them realise this would protect their future earnings at Hearts.

[livingstonjambo]

1 minute ago, Vlad Magic said:

I’m not prepared to criticise the players just yet. 
 

A decision like the one being asked is difficult to make quickly. Unless of course you are 100% certain you are financially secure enough to do so as is the case with Naismith. 
 

The other players will need to evaluate exactly what there revenues and outgoings are. Do their partners contribute? What are their total monthly liabilities?

 

It would be foolish to simply agree to something that may have significant financial implications further down the line.

 

We also don’t know (as far as I am aware) who or how many have refused or agreed?

 

There appears to be a lot of assumptions being made here.

Tell that to the million people who have applied for universal credit in the last week or the furloughed staff across the country only getting paid 80% of their salary while not being able to work.

Yet all footballers across the country feel entitled 100% of their salary whilst doing no work, it’s embarrassing 

[luckydug]

2 hours ago, Nookie Bear said:

Not seen anything but have Sky and BT been making noises about the money they throw at English football? That will be the tipping point for the game down there. 

Does anyone have an idea how these broadcasting contracts are worded ? 

Do the TV companies have a get out clause due to suspension of football ? 

I have no idea but wouldn't be surprised to find out they have. 

[McCrae]

7 minutes ago, Fozzyonthefence said:

 

Try reading Article 12, it’s all over this thread.  Article 12 is an agreement with the football authorities, i.e. the SPFL which does allow us to suspend players’ wages.  The SPFL have even confirmed this to players! The only grey area would appear to be whether or not FIFA would get involved and overrule it but do the SPFA / players really want to take that chance?

 

You keep mentioning the administration season - it’s got absolutely nothing to do with administration.  The club didn’t invoke Article 12 back then, I don’t even know if it existed, so that comparison is irrelevant.

I mention Administration because it’s a good example of what happens when a club stops paying wages to a player. Suspension doesn’t mean stop or terminate. John Sutton was a good example. He refused to take wages cuts offered by Hearts and left the club. The club had to pay the wages due under his contract when we came out of Administration.

I don’t think the Football authorities will allow us to walk away from paying players wages.

Edited April 2, 2020 by McCrae

[bigsuperslim1874]

1 minute ago, luckydug said:

Does anyone have an idea how these broadcasting contracts are worded ? 

Do the TV companies have a get out clause due to suspension of football ? 

I have no idea but wouldn't be surprised to find out they have. 

EPL will be panicking big time. Here? I guess we will need to hand back our 20p or however BT/Sky paid......

[Nookie Bear]

2 minutes ago, McCrae said:

I mention Administration because it’s a good example of what happens when a club stops paying wages to a player. Suspension doesn’t mean stop or terminate. John Sutton was a good example. He refused to take wages cuts offered by Hearts and left the club. The club had to pay the wages due under his contract when we came out of Administration.

I don’t think the Football authorities will allow us to walk away from paying players wages.

...or outstanding contracts, unless voluntarily.

[Vlad Magic]

1 minute ago, livingstonjambo said:

Tell that to the million people who have applied for universal credit in the last week or the furloughed staff across the country only getting paid 80% of their salary while not being able to work.

Yet all footballers across the country feel entitled 100% of their salary whilst doing no work, it’s embarrassing 

One of my points is that we don’t know how many have agreed and how many haven’t.

 

Also again to reiterate, some may need time to assess their own financial situations before agreeing.

 

It would be nonsensical to simply agree without due diligence.

[RonnieG]

38 minutes ago, DETTY29 said:

Dundee Utd are furloughing all staff but for players making up shortfall in wages.

 

Not convinced that is in the spirit of the scheme.

A lot of charities have put people on furlough but are also making up the 20% difference. 

[Fozzyonthefence]

24 minutes ago, McCrae said:

The suspension is to help with clubs short term cash flow. It is not designed to stop players getting paid.  

Yet it does both.  Look, you can argue all day on here if you want but I’d prefer to go with the SPFL’s interpretation and they’ve already confirmed to players that clubs can technically suspend players wages. 

[RonnieG]

14 minutes ago, upgotheheads said:

Does anyone know the answer to this? 

Are employers allowed to furlough their staff on 80% of their salaries, and then make up the difference in pay? I imagine that Hearts will be doing that for those people on Living Wage as the LV is not a legal requirement. 

 

yes. plenty doing it

[Fozzyonthefence]

6 minutes ago, McCrae said:

I mention Administration because it’s a good example of what happens when a club stops paying wages to a player. Suspension doesn’t mean stop or terminate. John Sutton was a good example. He refused to take wages cuts offered by Hearts and left the club. The club had to pay the wages due under his contract when we came out of Administration.

I don’t think the Football authorities will allow us to walk away from paying players wages.

I’ve given you the benefit of the doubt but I don’t for a minute believe you are really this thick so you’re clearly trolling now!

 

 

 

 

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

22 minutes ago, McCrae said:

I mention Administration because it’s a good example of what happens when a club stops paying wages to a player. Suspension doesn’t mean stop or terminate. John Sutton was a good example. He refused to take wages cuts offered by Hearts and left the club. The club had to pay the wages due under his contract when we came out of Administration.

I don’t think the Football authorities will allow us to walk away from paying players wages.

Sigh. What bit don't you get? Article 12 only applies when the authorities call a halt to football operations. Administration is a function of a business not being able to satisfy creditors as debts fall due.

 

As has been pointed out, suspension means zero pay. That could be for months at this rate before they start to get paid again (and yes, they would still need payments due on their contracts). Equally, I would suggest that they are bound to these contracts and can't join anyone else if they are demanding payment in full.

Edited April 2, 2020 by Geoff Kilpatrick

[Vansen]

I'd be interested to know whether the players contracts are actually enforceable considering that they include a clause, inserted by the footballing authorities that seems to go against their own overall footballing authority (FIFA). 

 

If the clubs activated clause 12 suspending payments, and FIFA rules this a material breach of the players contract, is the players contract even valid if it includes an unenforceable clause because it results in punitive disciplinary action being taken against the club?

 

FIFA seems to indictate they could take action against the clubs. By that token I would imagine the clubs could take action against the SFA. 

 

I would like to hear what the SFA have to say about their legally binding contracts and Clause 12. ( I will of course be waiting until hell freezes over!) 

Edited April 2, 2020 by Vansen
F'd up :(

[TyphoonJambo]

I have no doubt whatsoever that the only reason a decision is taking so long is the difficulty in reaching a decision which both the ass cheeks are happy with. The remaining teams, future existence, financial stability, history or worth to the leagues will be afforded, at best, about 10% of their efforts. 

[Mikey1874]

2 hours ago, RonnieG said:

Im not sure how you can make a player redundant unless im missing something here?  A redundant role cannot be re-hired so we wouldnt be able to sign players in those positions.    Also re the non payment thing.... what about this?  https://www.pressreader.com/uk/scottish-daily-mail/20200331/283334704387756

 

That talks about FIFA sanctions for varying a player's contract.

 

Suspending wages isn't a variation - it's a contract clause. 

[Kidd’s Boots]

10 hours ago, davemclaren said:

Director’s responsibilities are defined in company law bit the nature of the contracts will define what flexibility they have. 

Flexibility as defined in FIFA Status of Player Regulations

 

A contract may be terminated by either party without consequences of any kind (either payment of compensation or imposition of sporting sanctions) where there is just cause. 

 

[Beast Boy]

5 minutes ago, TypoonJambo said:

I have no doubt whatsoever that the only reason a decision is taking so long is the difficulty in reaching a decision which both the ass cheeks are happy with. The remaining teams, future existence, financial stability, history or worth to the leagues will be afforded, at best, about 10% of their efforts. 

Which parasite is the first to make our league look the biggest laughing stock by winning an entire decade of consecutive titles is their number one priority, of that there is no doubt whatsoever. As you said, the very existence of any of the other clubs comes a distant second in their eyes.

[McCrae]

31 minutes ago, Nookie Bear said:

...or outstanding contracts, unless voluntarily.

agreed.

[Mikey1874]

1 hour ago, Fozzyonthefence said:

There now seems to be a possibility that FIFA would intervene if Article 12 is invoked. 

 

I don't see how FIFA would get involved.

 

SFA rules have to be signed off by UEFA / FIFA. They would open themselves to problems that show they didn't know what SFA was doing. 

[McCrae]

19 minutes ago, Vansen said:

I'd be interested to know whether the players contracts are actually enforceable considering that they include a clause, inserted by the footballing authorities that seems to go against their own overall footballing authority (FIFA). 

 

If the clubs activated clause 12 suspending payments, and FIFA rules this a material breach of the players contract, is the players contract even valid if it includes an unenforceable clause because it results in punitive disciplinary action being taken against the club?

 

FIFA seems to indictate they could take action against the clubs. By that token I would imagine the clubs could take action against the SFA. 

 

I would like to hear what the SFA have to say about their legally binding contracts and Clause 12. ( I will of course be waiting until hell freezes over!) 

Through the courts contracts may not be enforceable, but the league can enforce them as a condition of allowing a team to play.

[tolcross lad]

Professional football needs a total reset.I am disgusted that many in the football world have such a sense of entitlement and it's taken this coronavirus to make it so evident.

The football world has been crazy for years.We all knew it.We would talk about this player or that player being worth so many million or wages even at Hearts that dwarfed the pay of all but a small minority in society.Sky had their transfer day deadline which could clock up a billion pound of transfer fees as cameras zoomed in on players arriving at a football ground in their Porsche having negotiated deals through agents worth millions whilst fans cheered them.

This culture percolated down through the systemand its consequences are staring us in the face.Its not a good sight.

This crisis has affected all of us.I have a son furloughed and another stuck abroad and as a  over 70 I seem to spend a lot of time wondering how I can dodge the bullet.This crisis will pass eventually and it is important to me that my club survives.

My further hope is that Hearts reassess there recruitment policy and sign players of "character" as was promised but never fulfilled.I have had a bellyful of mercenary transient players with issues

Whatever needs to be done should be done.I am wary of weakening our playing squad to such an extent that we will not be able to compete when football does resume nor do we want to be on the receiving end of punishment or legal actions that we cant defend.

My heart wants rid of the lot of them .My head tells me that we need to be pragmatic and box clever.

[SectionDJambo]

This suspension clause, which seems to unique to Scotland, whenever it was originally introduced, probably set out to protect players as much as clubs.

Anytime football in Scotland is suspended, the clause would suggest that players under contract with Scottish clubs, cannot be released by their club if the suspension of playing goes beyond the date of the player’s contract expiration. 
This, to me, would suggest that clubs, although not paying the players for the duration of the suspension, have to take back the players after it, for the length of time they had left on their contract before the suspension.

This gives very good security for the players in a situation like this, as it means they will be paid for the length of their contracts, but also be expected to play for their clubs for the same length of time.

The players seem to want things both ways. Get paid in full for the time of the suspension, but be able to move on under freedom of contract before they’ve completed the contract length by actually being available to the club to play.

[davemclaren]

6 minutes ago, Kidd’s Boots said:

Flexibility as defined in FIFA Status of Player Regulations

 

A contract may be terminated by either party without consequences of any kind (either payment of compensation or imposition of sporting sanctions) where there is just cause. 

 

A good one for the lawyers. 

[McCrae]

22 minutes ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

Sigh. What bit don't you get? Article 12 only applies when the authorities call a halt to football operations. Administration is a function of a business not being able to satisfy creditors as debts fall due.

 

As has been pointed out, suspension means zero pay. That could be for months at this rate before they start to get paid again (and yes, they would still need payments due on their contracts). Equally, I would suggest that they are bound to these contracts and can't join anyone else if they are demanding payment in full.

You have misunderstood what I am saying. The administration example is to highlight that no matter what a club cannot get away with not paying players.

[Fozzyonthefence]

3 minutes ago, SectionDJambo said:

This suspension clause, which seems to unique to Scotland, whenever it was originally introduced, probably set out to protect players as much as clubs.

Anytime football in Scotland is suspended, the clause would suggest that players under contract with Scottish clubs, cannot be released by their club if the suspension of playing goes beyond the date of the player’s contract expiration. 
This, to me, would suggest that clubs, although not paying the players for the duration of the suspension, have to take back the players after it, for the length of time they had left on their contract before the suspension.

This gives very good security for the players in a situation like this, as it means they will be paid for the length of their contracts, but also be expected to play for their clubs for the same length of time.

The players seem to want things both ways. Get paid in full for the time of the suspension, but be able to move on under freedom of contract before they’ve completed the contract length by actually being available to the club to play.

Spot on!  McCrae - do you understand this?!

[Section Q]

We're all affected by the current global events, and millions of workers around the world are losing their jobs and face uncertainty. Footballers shouldn't think they're an exception, but I expect some of them do. I don't think Budge is influenced by the long standing culture regarding football in Scotland, and she sees the dire situation for what it is.

[Fozzyonthefence]

1 minute ago, McCrae said:

You have misunderstood what I am saying. The administration example is to highlight that no matter what a club cannot get away with not paying players.

No he hasn’t,  you’re just not paying attention or deliberately trolling!  Yet again, your reference to administration is completely irrelevant when we’re specifically talking about a suspension of wages which is legally allowed under the players contracts.  

[husref musemic]

8 minutes ago, tolcross lad said:

Professional football needs a total reset.I am disgusted that many in the football world have such a sense of entitlement and it's taken this coronavirus to make it so evident.

The football world has been crazy for years.We all knew it.We would talk about this player or that player being worth so many million or wages even at Hearts that dwarfed the pay of all but a small minority in society.Sky had their transfer day deadline which could clock up a billion pound of transfer fees as cameras zoomed in on players arriving at a football ground in their Porsche having negotiated deals through agents worth millions whilst fans cheered them.

This culture percolated down through the systemand its consequences are staring us in the face.Its not a good sight.

This crisis has affected all of us.I have a son furloughed and another stuck abroad and as a  over 70 I seem to spend a lot of time wondering how I can dodge the bullet.This crisis will pass eventually and it is important to me that my club survives.

My further hope is that Hearts reassess there recruitment policy and sign players of "character" as was promised but never fulfilled.I have had a bellyful of mercenary transient players with issues

Whatever needs to be done should be done.I am wary of weakening our playing squad to such an extent that we will not be able to compete when football does resume nor do we want to be on the receiving end of punishment or legal actions that we cant defend.

My heart wants rid of the lot of them .My head tells me that we need to be pragmatic and box clever.

well said. 

 

The clock is ticking down rapidly for our club and we need to act in the long term best interest.

this deluded lot are into the third week of stalling. I'm becoming convinced they'll try to pick the bones before disappearing. 

[busby1985]

12 minutes ago, McCrae said:

Through the courts contracts may not be enforceable, but the league can enforce them as a condition of allowing a team to play.

Lad. If and when we invoke article 12 the players will not be paid until the shut down stops. We have no obligation to pay them any monies owed what so ever. Since the shut down the PFA have been in over drive preparing to try stop clubs invoking this article and make players aware that this clause exists. We owe them NOTHING during or after hence the PFA doing everything they can to stop clubs invoking it. The players if they are placed on article 12 will have their contracts put on hold until the shut down stops, they can be sold or agree termination at any point during and when the shut down stops, their contracts kick back along with all their benefits. The club will not have to pay them anything for time spent on Article 12. 

[luckydug]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

Just over 100 years since our team went to fight in Europe. Now we have a team of shysters. Empty them!

I was actually thinking about that. 

These players are not fit to wear our colours. 

Both in competence and character. 

There is no way back for these players now. Even if they now decide to take the 50% cut, we will all know they only agreed because they had no option. 

[Mikey1874]

2 hours ago, salvo69 said:

A really important point is that hearts are still paying their non playing staff whilst EPL clubs are getting bailed out by the government! The playing staff do come across as petty not accepting a pay drop, I get they will have bigger outgoings but surely they can see the bigger picture 

 

You maybe missed this late afternoon yesterday 

 

Non playing staff mostly now on furlough.

 

https://www.heartsfc.co.uk/news/article/club-update-1-2

[XB52]

14 minutes ago, McCrae said:

You have misunderstood what I am saying. The administration example is to highlight that no matter what a club cannot get away with not paying players.

Honestly you are surely just trolling now, nobody could be that dumb. You have been told again and again that spfl contracts say that we can stop paying players if the season is suspended.

[Fozzyonthefence]

5 minutes ago, XB52 said:

Honestly you are surely just trolling now, nobody could be that dumb. You have been told again and again that spfl contracts say that we can stop paying players if the season is suspended.

Indeed - Mods, are we allowing blatant trolling now?!

[braveheart]

53 minutes ago, Fozzyonthefence said:

I’ve given you the benefit of the doubt but I don’t for a minute believe you are really this thick so you’re clearly trolling now!

 

 

 

 

👍👍👍

[EIEIO]

1 hour ago, Sarah O said:

They can be made to sit in the stands then. Or fork the pitch. Put the cones out for the u13's. Do the laundry. Pull pints in the fans bar. 

Agreed time for these clowns to wake up and smell the coffee.

[luckydug]

26 minutes ago, McCrae said:

You have misunderstood what I am saying. The administration example is to highlight that no matter what a club cannot get away with not paying players.

It seems they can in this case. 

[husref musemic]

4 minutes ago, EIEIO said:

Agreed time for these clowns to wake up and smell the coffee.

id imagine they are oblivious to the outrage, laughing away in there WhatsApp group. 

[McCrae]

3 minutes ago, luckydug said:

It seems they can in this case. 

Time will tell.

[RonnieG]

2 minutes ago, luckydug said:

It seems they can in this case. 

I dont think they can.   Interesting times ahead if Hearts actually go down that route.   I still think Ann will do everything possible to reach agreements with the players.   Just stoping payment will not end well. 

[McCrae]

14 minutes ago, XB52 said:

Honestly you are surely just trolling now, nobody could be that dumb. You have been told again and again that spfl contracts say that we can stop paying players if the season is suspended.

Do you understand English? The word suspension does not mean the same as stop.
 

 

[Nookie Bear]

20 minutes ago, busby1985 said:

Lad. If and when we invoke article 12 the players will not be paid until the shut down stops. We have no obligation to pay them any monies owed what so ever. Since the shut down the PFA have been in over drive preparing to try stop clubs invoking this article and make players aware that this clause exists. We owe them NOTHING during or after hence the PFA doing everything they can to stop clubs invoking it. The players if they are placed on article 12 will have their contracts put on hold until the shut down stops, they can be sold or agree termination at any point during and when the shut down stops, their contracts kick back along with all their benefits. The club will not have to pay them anything for time spent on Article 12. 

 

Pretty clear explanation.

 

The only sticking point is the bit i highlighted. If a player cannot agree the terms of the termination offer then i assume he goes back to full wages (once possible) for the remainder of his contract.

 

[kila]

2 minutes ago, McCrae said:

Do you understand English? The word suspension does not mean the same as stop.

 

1. The league has been suspended by the footballing authorities

2. There is a clause in every SPFL player's contract that says if the league is suspended, no wages are due during the period of suspension

3. When the league starts up again, players will get paid from that point onwards but no back payments from the suspension period

 

Do you understand English? And if you do I guess trolling is your favourite word.

 

[JamboAl]

21 minutes ago, XB52 said:

Honestly you are surely just trolling now, nobody could be that dumb. You have been told again and again that spfl contracts say that we can stop paying players if the season is suspended.

I think you could be wrong.

[Fozzyonthefence]

2 minutes ago, McCrae said:

Do you understand English? The word suspension does not mean the same as stop.
 

 

Try looking up the definition of suspension.  It doesn’t mean the same as defer.  

Suspension means they would stop paying wages temporarily then back to full wages once the suspension is over.  There would be no backdated wages accruing during the suspension.  This protects the clubs as they don’t have to pay wages when there is no income and also protects the players as the clubs can’t just terminate the contracts.

[SectionDJambo]

Just read that Liam Craig is chairman of PFA Scotland. Given the previous history of obvious contempt between Hearts fans and him, there won't be much chance of a measured response from him towards anything Hearts.

[RonnieG]

2 minutes ago, kila said:

 

1. The league has been suspended by the footballing authorities

2. There is a clause in every SPFL player's contract that says if the league is suspended, no wages are due during the period of suspension

3. When the league starts up again, players will get paid from that point onwards but no back payments from the suspension period

 

Do you understand English? And if you do I guess trolling is your favourite word.

 

I think a lot of people have decided that clause is in effect.  Its not in place by any other team as yet. So i dont think its safe to assume that clause will come into force or indeed is enforceable.

[davemclaren]

Just now, RonnieG said:

I think a lot of people have decided that clause is in effect.  Its not in place by any other team as yet. So i dont think its safe to assume that clause will come into force or indeed is enforceable.

Why would it not be enforcable?

[kila]

1 minute ago, RonnieG said:

I think a lot of people have decided that clause is in effect.  Its not in place by any other team as yet. So i dont think its safe to assume that clause will come into force or indeed is enforceable.

 

It's not in place by Hearts either...

 

Now we're in April, this month is where it all spills out for every SPFL club. And how it is not enforceable is to question the legal binding of the contracts. I can't see the players winning that one!

 

[RonnieG]

1 minute ago, davemclaren said:

Why would it not be enforcable?

There was a  link posted earlier about FIFA being against such clauses.    You have to wonder why every team didnt just kick off that clause at the point of suspension? Its not straight forward or every team would have done it. 

[Mikey1874]

31 minutes ago, busby1985 said:

Lad. If and when we invoke article 12 the players will not be paid until the shut down stops. We have no obligation to pay them any monies owed what so ever. Since the shut down the PFA have been in over drive preparing to try stop clubs invoking this article and make players aware that this clause exists. We owe them NOTHING during or after hence the PFA doing everything they can to stop clubs invoking it. The players if they are placed on article 12 will have their contracts put on hold until the shut down stops, they can be sold or agree termination at any point during and when the shut down stops, their contracts kick back along with all their benefits. The club will not have to pay them anything for time spent on Article 12. 

 

Your updates have been helpful.

 

Clear that the PFA accepts clubs can suspend payments.