Wage cut for players and staff (Statement on 24/4)

[luckydug]

1 hour ago, McCrae said:

Am not. I know that the Football authorities will not allow us to do this and remain in the league. We cut players when we went into Administration. As a condition of us staying in the league we had to agree to pay the salaries due of players cut. 

You are now trolling the forum. 

Originally I thought you might have a point. However it's there in black and white in a contract clause that the SFA themselves instigated. 

How on earth can they punish clubs for following their own rules ? 

It's nothing to do with the rules on administration. 

I'm sure you know all this already but unlike myself unable to realise you got it wrong and unlike you I am delighted I read it wrong. 

It's a lifesaver for every club in Scotland imo. That is much more important than your bruised online ego. 

[RonnieG]

1 minute ago, luckydug said:

You are now trolling the forum. 

Originally I thought you might have a point. However it's there in black and white in a contract clause that the SFA themselves instigated. 

How on earth can they punish clubs for following their own rules ? 

It's nothing to do with the rules on administration. 

I'm sure you know all this already but unlike myself unable to realise you got it wrong and unlike you I am delighted I read it wrong. 

It's a lifesaver for every club in Scotland imo. That is much more important than your bruised online ego. 

FIFA can punish the club.

[Mikey1874]

Just now, RonnieG said:

FIFA can punish the club.

 

That's a theory.

 

The same FIFA that signed off the SFA's rules? 

[RonnieG]

Just now, Mikey1874 said:

 

That's a theory.

 

The same FIFA that signed off the SFA's rules? 

Yep all a theory.  As is the Clause until it has actively been used by anyone. (I know its all in the contract but there is no example law to draw upon)  We are all guessing until its put into effect.  My feeling is if it was so water tight Ann would have it in place already, as it would save the club a fortune. 

[Fozzyonthefence]

2 minutes ago, RonnieG said:

FIFA can punish the club.

It’s all a bit vague regarding FIFA.  They also have something about force majeure so that could be something that actually helps the clubs suspend contracts.  The article I read was about FIFA punishing clubs who alter players contracts.  I don’t see how that’s what Article 12 would be doing if it’s already part of the contract?!

[Sherbet]

I have no problem with the action the club is taking. However, we should not forget the financial situation the current regime have got us in. Given the amount of money that has been wasted would you be confident that early season ticket sales money would be used wisely

 

[busby1985]

5 minutes ago, Nookie Bear said:

 

Pretty clear explanation.

 

The only sticking point is the bit i highlighted. If a player cannot agree the terms of the termination offer then i assume he goes back to full wages (once possible) for the remainder of his contract.

 

Yeah so if Budge asks you to take the cut and you say no then there are two options left, as it stands. You agree with Budge to terminate your contract, both parties agree on a figure that works for both, which I can’t imagine will be a great amount, and then we go our separate ways. Or the only remaining option is they take no wages until the shut down stops when they are placed on article 12. When the shut down stops, all contracts go “live” again along with all benefit packages etc etc. 

[John Findlay]

Top strollers Ronnie G and MacCrae.

[Shanks]

12 hours ago, Pasquale for King said:

Found this, can’t share links just now.

 

 

 

Thanks for that.  So contracts can be suspended but not cancelled, clears that up for me. 

[Fozzyonthefence]

2 minutes ago, RonnieG said:

Yep all a theory.  As is the Clause until it has actively been used by anyone. (I know its all in the contract but there is no example law to draw upon)  We are all guessing until its put into effect.  My feeling is if it was so water tight Ann would have it in place already, as it would save the club a fortune. 

AB gave the players a deadline of 1st April to confirm their intentions. That was only yesterday so she couldn’t have invoked before then.

[kila]

11 minutes ago, RonnieG said:

There was a  link posted earlier about FIFA being against such clauses.    You have to wonder why every team didnt just kick off that clause at the point of suspension? Its not straight forward or every team would have done it. 

 

Were payments not due in full for March, so this month is where they can now invoke that clause?

[luckydug]

23 minutes ago, RonnieG said:

I dont think they can.   Interesting times ahead if Hearts actually go down that route.   I still think Ann will do everything possible to reach agreements with the players.   Just stoping payment will not end well. 

Can you explain your rationale ? 

It seems to be clear cut. 

As regards public opinion nobody will have sympathy for football players especially these players. 

[davemclaren]

3 minutes ago, Sherbet said:

I have no problem with the action the club is taking. However, we should not forget the financial situation the current regime have got us in. Given the amount of money that has been wasted would you be confident that early season ticket sales money would be used wisely

 

What do you think it will be spent on apart from trying to keep the club alive during this crisis?

[RonnieG]

1 minute ago, luckydug said:

Can you explain your rationale ? 

It seems to be clear cut. 

As regards public opinion nobody will have sympathy for football players especially these players. 

Legally i dont think it is clear cut.  Until there is example law its never clear cut.   I agree on Public opinion. I'm massively surprised our players haven't came out with a statement or an offer.  Right now it looks to the outside world that they are just saying "We want our full pay"  I honestly cant imagine that is true.

[Brick Tamland]

Any players signing for our club should either be aware of, or be made aware of our history and especially the McCrae’s Battalion part of our history. 
Young men in the prime of their life who gave up playing football, whilst sitting top of the league, for the greater good of their country. Many gave the ultimate sacrifice, others were maimed or mentally scarred and never played again. 
Any current player who has played their part in having us sit at the bottom of the league and can’t sacrifice some of their salary for the greater good of this club should be booted up and down Gorgie Road and told to **** off and never come back. 
 

[Selkirkhmfc1874]

2 minutes ago, Brick Tamland said:

Any players signing for our club should either be aware of, or be made aware of our history and especially the McCrae’s Battalion part of our history. 
Young men in the prime of their life who gave up playing football, whilst sitting top of the league, for the greater good of their country. Many gave the ultimate sacrifice, others were maimed or mentally scarred and never played again. 
Any current player who has played their part in having us sit at the bottom of the league and can’t sacrifice some of their salary for the greater good of this club should be booted up and down Gorgie Road and told to **** off and never come back. 
 

Absolutely!

[Jambo in Yorkshire]

Gordon Smith has just been on Sky. He isn’t my favourite person but he was very fair in his comments.

 

Hearts were mentioned and he said 50% for the players would still be more than most people earn. 

 

He was concerned for many clubs and seemed confident that there would be no punishment for teams that go into administration.

 

Kept saying that Uefa and Fifa need to put money into Scottish football. The danger for clubs is if they think that will happen and nothing is received.

 

Ann Budge has taken action based on no one helping Scottish football.

Edited April 2, 2020 by Jambo in Yorkshire

[Pasquale for King]

4 hours ago, Nookie Bear said:

If only we could do that, we could probably have a decent 5-a-side team 😁

Someone has to be the first to do everything.

[Pasquale for King]

3 hours ago, RonnieG said:

Im not sure how you can make a player redundant unless im missing something here?  A redundant role cannot be re-hired so we wouldnt be able to sign players in those positions.    Also re the non payment thing.... what about this?  https://www.pressreader.com/uk/scottish-daily-mail/20200331/283334704387756

I won’t click on that rags link. The picture I showed is from the UK governments advice on how to make people redundant. There are grounds to do it, nobody has done it before but that doesn’t mean it’s not legal.

[Pasquale for King]

16 minutes ago, Longshanks said:

 

 

Thanks for that.  So contracts can be suspended but not cancelled, clears that up for me. 

They can be made redundant like anyone else, and if it’s someone out of contract in the summer you are basically cancelling it. Sorry if that muddys the waters again 😜.

[Pasquale for King]

10 minutes ago, Jambo in Yorkshire said:

Gordon Smith has just been on Sky. He isn’t my favourite person but he was very fair in his comments.

 

Hearts were mentioned and he said 50% for the players would still be more than most people earn. 

 

He was concerned for many clubs and seemed confident that there would be no punishment for teams that go into administration.

 

Kept saying that Uefa and Fifa need to put money into Scottish football. The danger for clubs is if they think that will happen and nothing is received.

 

Ann Budge has taken action based on no one helping Scottish football.

It was a good interview, can’t see either of those two contributing financially. Is doing a Sky interview an essential reason to be outside 😜?

[Shanks]

2 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

They can be made redundant like anyone else, and if it’s someone out of contract in the summer you are basically cancelling it. Sorry if that muddys the waters again 😜.

 

So what would the terms of redundancy be for Damour for example?  He has a long time left on his contact so I presume there will be a hefty payment involved.  

 

As I understand it the only way you can cancel a players contract is if you go into administration, the information you quoted me in states that we can suspend payments but nothing about cancelling.

[Kidd’s Boots]

26 minutes ago, RonnieG said:

FIFA can punish the club.

Taken from the official FIFA players status

 

14 Terminating a contract with just cause
A contract may be terminated by either party without consequences of any kind (either payment of compensation or imposition of sporting sanctions) where there is just cause.

[Pasquale for King]

2 minutes ago, Longshanks said:

 

So what would the terms of redundancy be for Damour for example?  He has a long time left on his contact so I presume there will be a hefty payment involved.  

 

As I understand it the only way you can cancel a players contract is if you go into administration, the information you quoted me in states that we can suspend payments but nothing about cancelling.

Here is the governments advice on reasons to make people redundant. You can also do it if you can’t afford to pay people’s wages as you have no income. It’s not been done yet but why should footballers be any different from the rest of us, poor performance at work usually means the sack.

[Mikey1874]

12 minutes ago, RonnieG said:

Yep all a theory.  As is the Clause until it has actively been used by anyone. (I know its all in the contract but there is no example law to draw upon)  We are all guessing until its put into effect.  My feeling is if it was so water tight Ann would have it in place already, as it would save the club a fortune. 

 

Yeah

 

It hasn't been used yet because players have just been paid. Plenty time till next payment, at least 3 weeks. 

[luckydug]

20 minutes ago, RonnieG said:

Legally i dont think it is clear cut.  Until there is example law its never clear cut.   I agree on Public opinion. I'm massively surprised our players haven't came out with a statement or an offer.  Right now it looks to the outside world that they are just saying "We want our full pay"  I honestly cant imagine that is true.

All right then who do you think would be held responsible for reparation if the courts decided clause 12 was illegal ? 

Given it was the football authorities who placed the clause in the contracts. 

Hardly fair to hold clubs responsible for following governing bodies contract agreements imo. 

[Norm]

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

Just over 100 years since our team went to fight in Europe. Now we have a team of shysters. Empty them!

Exactly. The whole team offered up their ****ing lives back then, when something bigger than football came along. 

 

This bunch of self centered **** stumps can't even take a pay cut, when their pay cut is still a **** sight more than. Most people on here earn. 

 

I'm with Budge all the way on this. We'll offer you half pay. Take it or leave it. I'd rather take the hit and play in the championship than pay these ***** full pay while everyone else in the country is ****ing struggling. 

 

I've been avoiding this chat because it gets me riled up but **** the players. Seriously. How ****ing out of touch do they have to be to fight this? Take the pay cut or take no pay. Their choice. 

[EIEIO]

3 minutes ago, luckydug said:

All right then who do you think would be held responsible for reparation if the courts decided clause 12 was illegal ? 

Given it was the football authorities who placed the clause in the contracts. 

Hardly fair to hold clubs responsible for following governing bodies contract agreements imo. 

A legal fight between the SFA and the Scottish PFA.  Popcorn time !

[Nookie Bear]

6 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

Here is the governments advice on reasons to make people redundant. You can also do it if you can’t afford to pay people’s wages as you have no income. It’s not been done yet but why should footballers be any different from the rest of us, poor performance at work usually means the sack.

You quoted this before but it doesn’t explain why clubs don’t just do it more often. I assume the contract needs paying up, unless the club is insolvent. 

 

Different times though, so not sure what happens to someone like Damour 🤷‍♂️

[JamboAl]

2 minutes ago, Nookie Bear said:

You quoted this before but it doesn’t explain why clubs don’t just do it more often. I assume the contract needs paying up, unless the club is insolvent. 

 

Different times though, so not sure what happens to someone like Damour 🤷‍♂️

I think it might be because it relates to redundancy and we're not quite there yet.

[Shanks]

15 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

Here is the governments advice on reasons to make people redundant. You can also do it if you can’t afford to pay people’s wages as you have no income. It’s not been done yet but why should footballers be any different from the rest of us, poor performance at work usually means the sack.

 

 

If that's what you're basing us being able to make football players redundant on then its not happening I'm afraid.  Why wouldn't clubs have done this before when stuck paying players for years?  Because they have a contract.

 

I've seen nothing that suggests we can let a player go for nothing if they don't accept 50% wages, yes we may be able to suspend payment but theres nothing to say we can release players within their contracts. Unless someone can show we otherwise and I'd be happily corrected.

 

 

Edited April 2, 2020 by Longshanks

[Nookie Bear]

1 minute ago, JamboAl said:

I think it might be because it relates to redundancy and we're not quite there yet.

Yep. Not sure therefore that we can just terminate contracts without paying off the remainder of the contract, or agreeing to a reduced amount. 

[JamboAl]

1 minute ago, Nookie Bear said:

Yep. Not sure therefore that we can just terminate contracts without paying off the remainder of the contract, or agreeing to a reduced amount. 

But who has said anything about terminating contracts?    I'm not aware Ann Budge has.

[davemclaren]

4 minutes ago, JamboAl said:

I think it might be because it relates to redundancy and we're not quite there yet.

If the club goes out of business then redundancy to the players will happen. However, if we continue as a club under their auspices the Fifa/Uefa require ‘football debts’ to be paid. That's what happened when we came out of administration. 

[Nookie Bear]

2 minutes ago, JamboAl said:

But who has said anything about terminating contracts?    I'm not aware Ann Budge has.

95% of the posts on here are people shouting for Budge to terminate contracts. 

[East Lothian Jambo]

Footballers really need to get real. Granted it's a short career and a very small percentage reach elite level

 

Wage growth in the industry has been exponential relative to majority of sectors in last 15-20 years 

[Beast Boy]

Didn’t hear Gordon Smith’s interview, but I’m willing to bet the part of what he said that he is most worried about, is Rangers’ chances of going in to admin and and not getting punished.

[JamboAl]

2 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

If the club goes out of business then redundancy to the players will happen. However, if we continue as a club under their auspices the Fifa/Uefa require ‘football debts’ to be paid. That's what happened when we came out of administration. 

I think you're right, Dave but I have a feeling that new legislation will be enacted as this crisis has created unforeseen problems on a major scale.

[Hungry hippo]

Just now, JamboAl said:

But who has said anything about terminating contracts?    I'm not aware Ann Budge has.

 

Agreed. As far as I'm aware the options are:

1 pay cut.

2 players can cancel contract if they wish.

3 invoke clause to suspend player contracts during football suspension.

 

We seem keen to avoid option 3 if possible and the fact talks are ongoing without a club statement (since SPFA statement) indicates to me Ann Budge feels this may be achievable.

[Sherbet]

47 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

What do you think it will be spent on apart from trying to keep the club alive during this crisis?

Where has the rest of the money gone

[davemclaren]

1 minute ago, Sherbet said:

Where has the rest of the money gone

During the crisis?

[davemclaren]

3 minutes ago, JamboAl said:

I think you're right, Dave but I have a feeling that new legislation will be enacted as this crisis has created unforeseen problems on a major scale.

Could be. It’s all uncharted waters now. 

[Selkirkhmfc1874]

3 minutes ago, Sherbet said:

Where has the rest of the money gone

Surely not the time and place when people all over the place are dying and suffering 

[Nookie Bear]

10 minutes ago, JamboAl said:

But who has said anything about terminating contracts?    I'm not aware Ann Budge has.

 

From Ann’s statement:
(3) Staff and players alike, who feel unable or unwilling to accept this revision to their contracts, will, of course, be offered the option of contract termination.

[Hungry hippo]

4 minutes ago, Nookie Bear said:

 

From Ann’s statement:
(3) Staff and players alike, who feel unable or unwilling to accept this revision to their contracts, will, of course, be offered the option of contract termination.

 

Yeah, that would be the players choice though.

[Fozzyonthefence]

16 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

If the club goes out of business then redundancy to the players will happen. However, if we continue as a club under their auspices the Fifa/Uefa require ‘football debts’ to be paid. That's what happened when we came out of administration. 

What football debts are you referring to?

[Beast Boy]

13 minutes ago, Sherbet said:

Where has the rest of the money gone

What money specifically are you referring to?

[Sherbet]

11 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

During the crisis?

Before

[Dazo]

1 minute ago, Fozzyonthefence said:

What football debts are you referring to?

If we went out of business we would have football debts.  

[Dazo]

14 minutes ago, Sherbet said:

Where has the rest of the money gone

Are you really missing the big picture here or trolling ? We have no income whatever money we have will quickly be swallowed up.