Wage cut for players and staff (Statement on 24/4)

[RonnieG]

1 hour ago, Nookie Bear said:

You quoted this before but it doesn’t explain why clubs don’t just do it more often. I assume the contract needs paying up, unless the club is insolvent. 

 

Different times though, so not sure what happens to someone like Damour 🤷‍♂️

You cannot make players redundant.  Its a role that becomes redundant and its only then that you can take that course of action. The role of Centre Mid will still be filled but someone else ergo you cannot use redundancy. Surely everyone understands what redundancy is. 

[davemclaren]

Just now, annushorribilis III said:

Took the SFA to court.

Not aware of that. Do you have a link?

[Craig Young]

Saw this on FB a wee while ago. Says a lot (even if it's not the real Stan Collymore)

 

 

[Mikey1874]

5 minutes ago, Jambo-Fox said:

The players have been given a fair and reasonable offer, some would say generous!

 

For those that don’t accept it, implement the ‘article 12’, ie pay suspended

What’s the worst that can happen? The PFA fights it in court and wins and the players get their wages backdated. That would be at some distant future date. For Hearts this would effectively be a deferral of wages but 100% of wages so it’s a winner as well!
 

But are the players prepared to gamble?  Big gamble for money with the associated stigma of not supporting the club and country!!

 

Go on Hearts do it!
 

 

 

Well said.

 

We can change the whole culture at the club too to a much more positive mentality,  with more committed players. 

[RonnieG]

1 hour ago, Nookie Bear said:

Are you even allowed to make someone redundant and then replace them with someone else doing the same job?

No you are 100% not allowed to do that.   Someone is getting Performance Management and Redundancy mixed up.  If players are not doing their job they can be PM'd out of a job.  But its take upto 9 months and multiple warning etc to build up that evidence.  A forum just saying a player is shite is not evidence from someone being managed out of a job. 

[Squirt]

6 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Well said.

 

We can change the whole culture at the club too to a much more positive mentality,  with more committed players. 

The only issue there is that the people choosing the players coming in are still the same people, and they’ve not exactly had a good track record the last 18 months or so. Scratch that, the last 5 fecking years!

 

There is a case to be argued that Budge could use this to get us back on her side whilst we all turn on the players, but it’s what she would follow that up with that would be important and while I’ve a lot of respect for her and what she has done I also have a lot of criticisms. She did it once before though, before it went sour, maybe she can do it again. Time will tell.

Edited April 2, 2020 by Squirt

[JamboAl]

21 minutes ago, Squirt said:

Maybe not but if you make £100,000 a year you spend money like you make £100,000 a year and your bills reflect it. So to be fair to the players, some of them genuinely could end up in difficulty themselves if they down to money like that.

AB has made a 50% offer and in her statement she said that anyone with challenging financial circumstances should come and see HR or her.  That suggests she is not casting anyone out to sea without a lifebelt.

[Nookie Bear]

4 minutes ago, RonnieG said:

No you are 100% not allowed to do that.   Someone is getting Performance Management and Redundancy mixed up.  If players are not doing their job they can be PM'd out of a job.  But its take upto 9 months and multiple warning etc to build up that evidence.  A forum just saying a player is shite is not evidence from someone being managed out of a job. 

Yep, I am sure we have all worked alongside people who have not got a clue but it takes ages for them to be moved on, if ever.

[wavydavy]

16 minutes ago, Jambo-Fox said:

The players have been given a fair and reasonable offer, some would say generous!

 

For those that don’t accept it, implement the ‘article 12’, ie pay suspended

What’s the worst that can happen? The PFA fights it in court and wins and the players get their wages backdated. That would be at some distant future date. For Hearts this would effectively be a deferral of wages but 100% of wages so it’s a winner as well!
 

But are the players prepared to gamble?  Big gamble for money with the associated stigma of not supporting the club and country!!

 

Go on Hearts do it!
 

 

 

Maybe about time for a bit of a leak to the media of those players refusing to comply are.

[Squirt]

1 minute ago, JamboAl said:

AB has made a 50% offer and in her statement she said that anyone with challenging financial circumstances should come and see HR or her.  That suggests she is not casting anyone out to sea without a lifebelt.

Yeah true and I get the impression Budge isn’t the type of person who would want to do that to anyone, as ruthless as she is I do genuinely believe she has morals and a heart. I was just pointing out that although the players are due criticism over this it’s not as straight forward as the guy makes £100K a year he must have at least 20 or 30 grand in the bank. The majority of these guys aren’t even in their 30s and will be living it large. Clares got 70 grand merc 4x4. Anthony McDonald doesn’t even play in the first team and has a 30 grand merc. (I watch the players drive into the car park btw before I look like a stalker!) fun fact, Levein drives a crappy old Kia Sportage. 
 

Just now, Nookie Bear said:

Yep, I am sure we have all worked alongside people who have not got a clue but it takes ages for them to be moved on, if ever.

 

If an employer really wants rid of someone they’ll get rid of them, I know that from experience from both an employers point of view and the employee. This is football however which is of course a very different minefield.

[Hungry hippo]

8 minutes ago, wavydavy said:

 

Maybe about time for a bit of a leak to the media of those players refusing to comply are.

 

Would rather we try to deal with as professionally as possible. Very interested to know how many players though.

[Pasquale for King]

26 minutes ago, Gilberts Fridge said:

When I was going through a redundancy in England five or six years ago, I consulted an employment lawyer as it was clear they were not following their own procedures and it was being used to remove those the new boss did not personally like.

 

The barrister engaged by the employment lawyer made it clear to us that employment law is weighted heavily in the favour of the employer and they could make you redundant on Friday and if their business had changed on Monday by gaining new work or contracts, employ someone new even if part of their role was doing the work you had previously.

 

Any employer, regardless of what you earn will be able to make you redundant on minimum terms,  the main thing that will get you more money is your length of notice or by wining and unfair dismissal case. My job was three months, some were on six and some were on 12. They could make you work your notice, I was lucky and they shoved me straight out the door. The barrister also advised strongly never to go to court as the outcome of the case depended on what side of the bed the judge gout out of that morning and that they were just as likely to set a precedent in case law as to follow previous. Not something I ever wish to go through again.

 

Ann could say that as income has dried up then we need to make people redundant and then when football starts again say that business has changed and we need to employ more people. Not sure how the SFA etc would view it and it may fall foul of their regulations. 

Sounds pretty shit but thanks for sharing that. If article 12 is anything to go by the regulations will favour the clubs.

Edited April 2, 2020 by Pasquale for King

[Pasquale for King]

10 minutes ago, Squirt said:

Yeah true and I get the impression Budge isn’t the type of person who would want to do that to anyone, as ruthless as she is I do genuinely believe she has morals and a heart. I was just pointing out that although the players are due criticism over this it’s not as straight forward as the guy makes £100K a year he must have at least 20 or 30 grand in the bank. The majority of these guys aren’t even in their 30s and will be living it large. Clares got 70 grand merc 4x4. Anthony McDonald doesn’t even play in the first team and has a 30 grand merc. (I watch the players drive into the car park btw before I look like a stalker!) fun fact, Levein drives a crappy old Kia Sportage. 
 

 

If an employer really wants rid of someone they’ll get rid of them, I know that from experience from both an employers point of view and the employee. This is football however which is of course a very different minefield.

Kia Sportage is easier to get parked at the bookies 😱😜.

[sac]

45 minutes ago, Squirt said:

Maybe not but if you make £100,000 a year you spend money like you make £100,000 a year and your bills reflect it. So to be fair to the players, some of them genuinely could end up in difficulty themselves if they down to money like that.

If anyone is making this kind of money in what can be a very short career, then surely they’d be investing some of it in a pension or other, rather than living right up to their means?

[Gilberts Fridge]

7 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

Sounds pretty shit but thanks for sharing that. If article 12 is anything to go by the regulations will favour the clubs.

 

There was even a guy on a fixed term contract that was kept on as it could be demonstrated that certain customers would only work with him in the business.

 

Glad I am out of it, even before all this, my current employer is far better and they are dying on there arse.

 

The thing I learned about it was that ACAS are next to useless and redundancy is all about protecting the company, not you, going forward.

 

Right back to these wage thieves 

[Guest ToqueJambo]

27 minutes ago, Squirt said:

Yeah true and I get the impression Budge isn’t the type of person who would want to do that to anyone, as ruthless as she is I do genuinely believe she has morals and a heart. I was just pointing out that although the players are due criticism over this it’s not as straight forward as the guy makes £100K a year he must have at least 20 or 30 grand in the bank. The majority of these guys aren’t even in their 30s and will be living it large. Clares got 70 grand merc 4x4. Anthony McDonald doesn’t even play in the first team and has a 30 grand merc. (I watch the players drive into the car park btw before I look like a stalker!) fun fact, Levein drives a crappy old Kia Sportage. 
 

 

If an employer really wants rid of someone they’ll get rid of them, I know that from experience from both an employers point of view and the employee. This is football however which is of course a very different minefield.

 

It's not Hearts job to keep footballers in expensive cars and cover for their poor financial decisions, or fans' jobs to fund that sort of lifestyle from their own hard-earned money. If they're earning that kind of money it should be easy for them to have an emergency fund set aside that can keep them going for 6 mths like most who work contract to contract are advised to do. Maybe they'll learn something out of all this.

Edited April 2, 2020 by ToqueJambo

[McCrae]

2 minutes ago, Gilberts Fridge said:

 

There was even a guy on a fixed term contract that was kept on as it could be demonstrated that certain customers would only work with him in the business.

 

Glad I am out of it, even before all this, my current employer is far better and they are dying on there arse.

 

The thing I learned about it was that ACAS are next to useless and redundancy is all about protecting the company, not you, going forward.

 

Right back to these wage thieves 

or get a different lawyer.

[Squirt]

6 minutes ago, sac said:

If anyone is making this kind of money in what can be a very short career, then surely they’d be investing some of it in a pension or other, rather than living right up to their means?

You would think so but that’s hardly a guarantee. Some people live today and worry tomorrow,  many people in fact. Big Nade and his ‘missing’ Lambo springs to mind.

[McCrae]

1 minute ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

It's not Hearts job to keep footballers in expensive cars and cover for their poor financial decisions, or fans' jobs to fund that sort of lifestyle from their own hard-earned money. If they're earning that kind of money it should be easy for them to have an emergency fund set aside that can keep them going for 6 mths like everyone who works contract to contract. Maybe they'll learn something out of all this.

Hearts, a big earning club only has 3 months money in its emergency fund.

[Squirt]

2 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

It's not Hearts job to keep footballers in expensive cars and cover for their poor financial decisions, or fans' jobs to fund that sort of lifestyle from their own hard-earned money. If they're earning that kind of money it should be easy for them to have an emergency fund set aside that can keep them going for 6 mths like everyone who works contract to contract. Maybe they'll learn something out of all this.

I’m not suggesting it’s Hearts prerogative or ours, I’m trying to highlight the players point of view, which I wholly disagree with and think is wrong, but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t try to understand how and why they’ve arrived at this decision they have.

 

I agree with absolutely everything you said 👍🏻

[Guest ToqueJambo]

Just now, McCrae said:

Hearts, a big earning club only has 3 months money in its emergency fund.

 

Two completely different things. 

[busby1985]

35 minutes ago, JamboAl said:

AB has made a 50% offer and in her statement she said that anyone with challenging financial circumstances should come and see HR or her.  That suggests she is not casting anyone out to sea without a lifebelt.

There’s no point mate. Just constant circles. 

[Fozzyonthefence]

6 minutes ago, McCrae said:

Hearts, a big earning club only has 3 months money in its emergency fund.

That doesn’t seem unreasonable, if true.  How much do other clubs have?  Did they all foresee the Coronavirus pandemic and AB didn’t?

[Guest ToqueJambo]

1 hour ago, Jambo-Fox said:

Hearts players, rotten on the pitch rotten off the pitch, not following their captains lead, just sheep following the PFA!

 

Clear them out .......  build a team with ...

Dikomona (re-signed) at the back and midfield and Naismith up front and midfield, then fill the other 9 shirts with the ladies team!

 

Probably do better than current squad!

 

Naismith as player-manager for our promotion season or whatever league we're in is looking like a very real possibility too. I like Stendel a lot but I don't know if he'll be back, especially if we're relegated. 

[HMFC01]

 

See if the club do use the clause to suspend is that for the whole playing staff eg. coaches/physios/doctors/players/managers or is it just the players that are left mulling over a deal.

 

Would then if the clause was used Naismith and anyone else that already took the %50 cut also get their wages suspended?

[Guest ToqueJambo]

1 hour ago, Longshanks said:

 

As I posted above, I was a teenager.  Me and my mates liked the film braveheart and we would quote things from the film, I've never really thought about it but can see why it would upset some people and it probably explains a few reactions I've had on here over the 14 years

 

It's quite ironic that I am a big SNP supporter as well

 

Should probably think about changing it but it's something I've not really bothered about.

 

Top unintentional trolling 😂

[Mikey1874]

6 minutes ago, HMFC01 said:

 

See if the club do use the clause to suspend is that for the whole playing staff eg. coaches/physios/doctors/players/managers or is it just the players that are left mulling over a deal.

 

Would then if the clause was used Naismith and anyone else that already took the %50 cut also get their wages suspended?

 

By individual surely. Its an individual contract.

[Guest ToqueJambo]

53 minutes ago, JamboAl said:

AB has made a 50% offer and in her statement she said that anyone with challenging financial circumstances should come and see HR or her.  That suggests she is not casting anyone out to sea without a lifebelt.

 

And the first thing I'd ask a player is, if you can afford to defer wages and not have ANY income for 4-6 months potentially how can you not afford to take a pay cut and keep covering your expenses, instead of eating up your savings? The players refusing to take cuts are probably chancing it. I hope none of them are the ones who have been long-term injured and looked after by us. That would be a kick in the face.

[Jodami]

The club has to tread a fine line here. If the players do not accept the 50% pay cut and the club don't go in with the boot and invoke article 12 then a lot of people are going to be very unhappy/totally disgusted at the playing staff. The same people you are hoping to market season tickets to. Now a lot of us are going to be in really challenging financial circumstances anyway and cannot afford one now but then you are trying to persuade anyone who can to pay the wages of mercenaries who care nothing about society or indeed the club based on performances. 

[HMFC01]

3 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

By individual surely. Its an individual contract.

Cheers, I am good with that.  Makes sense right enough if it's an individual contract.  I was thinking it was more directed towards the clubs

[HMFC01]

4 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

And the first thing I'd ask a player is, if you can afford to defer wages and not have ANY income for 4-6 months potentially how can you not afford to take a pay cut and keep covering your expenses, instead of eating up your savings? The players refusing to take cuts are probably chancing it. I hope none of them are the ones who have been long-term injured and looked after by us. That would be a kick in the face.

Good point!  Even if just 1 player came out and said why they can't it might help.

[Jambo 4 Ever]

2 hours ago, Mauricio Pinilla said:

 

Proving my point, cheers lad. 

What’s your point?

[Anderson5]

We are away to enter a recession like never experienced before. Like all previous recessions, businesses will use it as an excuse to get rid of all their s**t staff and hang on to the good employees. 
 

Hearts, like all other companies, should use it as an opportunity to clear their decks. 

[Footballfirst]

Chris McLaughlin@BBCchrismclaug

As of today, 86 players across all four leagues in Scotland have been placed on the government job retention scheme (furlough). That number is expected to rise. #Covid_19

[Fozzyonthefence]

2 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

Chris McLaughlin@BBCchrismclaug

As of today, 86 players across all four leagues in Scotland have been placed on the government job retention scheme (furlough). That number is expected to rise. #Covid_19

I await the outrage from Fraser Wishart.

[Beast Boy]

1 minute ago, Footballfirst said:

Chris McLaughlin@BBCchrismclaug

As of today, 86 players across all four leagues in Scotland have been placed on the government job retention scheme (furlough). That number is expected to rise. #Covid_19

“expected to rise”... err, aye. Expect it will somewhat, yes.

[kingantti1874]

52 minutes ago, McCrae said:

Hearts, a big earning club only has 3 months money in its emergency fund.

Sorry but efficient businesses don’t sit on big piles of cash unless they’ve nothing else to do with it.

[Nookie Bear]

10 minutes ago, Anderson5 said:

We are away to enter a recession like never experienced before. Like all previous recessions, businesses will use it as an excuse to get rid of all their s**t staff and hang on to the good employees. 
 

Hearts, like all other companies, should use it as an opportunity to clear their decks. 

 

Cynical. About as cynical as holding out for full pay.

[Dazo]

4 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

Chris McLaughlin@BBCchrismclaug

As of today, 86 players across all four leagues in Scotland have been placed on the government job retention scheme (furlough). That number is expected to rise. #Covid_19

I thought it would have been far higher. I’d expect all of league 1 & 2 and three Majority of the championship would have done it since the cap would have covered most of these players and loss of income for them would have been fairly manageable. 

[Beast Boy]

1 hour ago, Pasquale for King said:

Kia Sportage is easier to get parked at the bookies 😱😜.

Are gambling addictions fair game compared to other addictions?

[Anderson5]

5 minutes ago, Nookie Bear said:

 

Cynical. About as cynical as holding out for full pay.

Such is life I’m afraid. 

[cliffdanum]

1 hour ago, RonnieG said:

No you are 100% not allowed to do that.   Someone is getting Performance Management and Redundancy mixed up.  If players are not doing their job they can be PM'd out of a job.  But its take upto 9 months and multiple warning etc to build up that evidence.  A forum just saying a player is shite is not evidence from someone being managed out of a job. 

Yes u can..u make that role no longer required and you can re hire on different terms conditions but essentially functioning in the re-roled job...ie going from 3 shift system to 2..

[Guest ToqueJambo]

1 hour ago, Jambo-Fox said:

The players have been given a fair and reasonable offer, some would say generous!

 

For those that don’t accept it, implement the ‘article 12’, ie pay suspended

What’s the worst that can happen? The PFA fights it in court and wins and the players get their wages backdated. That would be at some distant future date. For Hearts this would effectively be a deferral of wages but 100% of wages so it’s a winner as well!
 

But are the players prepared to gamble?  Big gamble for money with the associated stigma of not supporting the club and country!!

 

Go on Hearts do it!
 

 

 

When Budge came out with the 50% offer it got attention partly because it was so early. A lot of other people were thinking this is going to be a few weeks of upheaval. She's been proven right to start planning early for the worst. I wish the UK government had taken it as seriously as she did earlier.

 

The crazy thing about the PFA is that they are doing this so late in the game. We all know how serious the virus is and how long this is going to last and that the economic hit to everyone is going to be unprecedented. Lots of other clubs have gone down the same route as Budge. The PFA still seems to be in denial about that. If they honestly believe players can - and morally should - get paid 100% of their wages like nothing has happened they are completely unfit for purpose.

[Beast Boy]

Another 500 odd people have died in the last 24 hours. That’s over a thousand in 48 hours. There is not a chance we are playing games of football this summer. Deferring wages is a really stupid idea.

[Fozzyonthefence]

8 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

Are gambling addictions fair game compared to other addictions?

How do you know he has a gambling addiction?  Millions of people have the odd bet.  It doesn’t mean they have an addiction and I’m not aware he has admitted he has a problem although I am aware he is known to frequent such establishments. 
 

I do wonder why such high profile people don’t just do it online though. Not just a dinosaur as a manager but a dinosaur gambler as well!

 

I don’t have much sympathy for gambling addicts to be honest.  Their families, yes, however.

[Pasquale for King]

1 hour ago, Gilberts Fridge said:

 

There was even a guy on a fixed term contract that was kept on as it could be demonstrated that certain customers would only work with him in the business.

 

Glad I am out of it, even before all this, my current employer is far better and they are dying on there arse.

 

The thing I learned about it was that ACAS are next to useless and redundancy is all about protecting the company, not you, going forward.

 

Right back to these wage thieves 

Good to hear you’re in a better environment, thankfully I am too and would’ve been happy to take a 50% cut to save my job, help the lesser paid staff and the business. 
 

[JamboNation]

Why aren't we furloughing the squad then we could choose to make up any proportion of the remainder we wish ?

[Pasquale for King]

17 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

Are gambling addictions fair game compared to other addictions?

Apologies for a poor attempt at humour to lighten the mood.

[Mikey1874]

1 minute ago, JamboNation said:

Why aren't we furloughing the squad then we could choose to make up any proportion of the remainder we wish ?

 

The maximum furlough payment is £577 per week. Anne Budge's assessment is we need to save a lot more than that. 

 

Average wages may be around £3,000 per week. 

[RonnieG]

19 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

Are gambling addictions fair game compared to other addictions?

Does he have an addiction or just not very good at it?