Wage cut for players and staff (Statement on 24/4)

[Shanks]

5 minutes ago, Hungry hippo said:

 

Yeah, that would be the players choice though.

 

exactly.  I'm sure Damour is about to bite our hands off and walk away from his contract for nothing

[Nookie Bear]

4 minutes ago, Hungry hippo said:

 

Yeah, that would be the players choice though.

Yes, and their negotiations would start at the full amount remaining on their contract. 
 

If I was a footballer I would much rather have the security of a two year deal than risk being a free agent right now. So they may well dig their heels in and say “pay up or I’ll see out my contract in the reserves”

[Mister Dee]

I remember the old days, when you were proud to be a Hearts supporter. 
It’s hard to find much to admire about our Club at the moment. 
 

but -at least we’re not Hibs. 😊

FTH. 

[Sherbet]

1 minute ago, Dazo said:

Are you really missing the big picture here or trolling ? We have no income whatever money we have will quickly be swallowed up. 

 

1 minute ago, Dazo said:

Are you really missing the big picture here or trolling ? We have no income whatever money we have will quickly be swallowed up. 

I am talking about the money before the virus

[Beast Boy]

Just now, Sherbet said:

Before

It’s all accounted for, if you look at our published accounts over the various junctures. Briefly though: 

 

Operating costs when we exited admin.

Paying back Ann for her loan.

Contributions to the stand.

 

Is where the vast majority of the FoH money has been spent.

[David McCaig]

17 minutes ago, Sherbet said:

Where has the rest of the money gone

Because of course, the money is just rolling in by the barrowload at the moment.

[Dazo]

2 minutes ago, Sherbet said:

 

I am talking about the money before the virus

I know. What do you think we are spending with no income coming in ? 

[Nookie Bear]

2 minutes ago, David McCaig said:

Because of course, the money is just rolling in by the barrowload at the moment.

Well Budge better start begging the benefactor for another cheque so she can start paying off all those contracts. 

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

1 hour ago, Brick Tamland said:

Any players signing for our club should either be aware of, or be made aware of our history and especially the McCrae’s Battalion part of our history. 
Young men in the prime of their life who gave up playing football, whilst sitting top of the league, for the greater good of their country. Many gave the ultimate sacrifice, others were maimed or mentally scarred and never played again. 
Any current player who has played their part in having us sit at the bottom of the league and can’t sacrifice some of their salary for the greater good of this club should be booted up and down Gorgie Road and told to **** off and never come back. 
 

I’m not into all this ‘here’s what it was like in World War 1’ stuff. Needs a shoehorn.

 

The under performance of the players has been shocking though and we should make no unnecessary concessions to them. By the same token, this crisis shouldn’t allow others higher up the chain to hide from their ineptitude. If we escape relegation due to COVID, Budge will be the luckiest owner going.

[Pasquale for King]

35 minutes ago, Nookie Bear said:

You quoted this before but it doesn’t explain why clubs don’t just do it more often. I assume the contract needs paying up, unless the club is insolvent. 

 

Different times though, so not sure what happens to someone like Damour 🤷‍♂️

Yeah I did but Eddie didn’t read it clearly. As I said someone has to be the first to do it, it would be illegal for UEFA or FIFA to say you couldn’t do it.

[The Internet]

6 hours ago, Natural Orders said:

Footballers are overpaid 

 

Proving my point, cheers lad. 

[Nookie Bear]

1 minute ago, Pasquale for King said:

Yeah I did but Eddie didn’t read it clearly. As I said someone has to be the first to do it, it would be illegal for UEFA or FIFA to say you couldn’t do it.

If we’re able to make players redundant on the same terms “normal” businesses do, it would be bigger than Bosman. 

[David McCaig]

2 minutes ago, Nookie Bear said:

Well Budge better start begging the benefactor for another cheque so she can start paying off all those contracts. 

Surely Ann Budge should just continue with the course of action she has started.

 

Ann is quite obviously not to blame for our current financial predicament and the steps she has taken to protect the club are 100% correct.

[Pasquale for King]

36 minutes ago, Longshanks said:

 

 

If that's what you're basing us being able to make football players redundant on then its not happening I'm afraid.  Why wouldn't clubs have done this before when stuck paying players for years?  Because they have a contract.

 

I've seen nothing that suggests we can let a player go for nothing if they don't accept 50% wages, yes we may be able to suspend payment but theres nothing to say we can release players within their contracts. Unless someone can show we otherwise and I'd be happily corrected.

 

 

So the UK governments advice on redundancies doesn’t mean anything? Standard of work or performance, skills or aptitude to do their work?
Nobody has done it so it can’t be done? If you’re hero had that attitude he wouldn’t have controlled Scotland in the 13th century would he?

All is saying is that it can be done, quite legally.

Edited April 2, 2020 by Pasquale for King

[Dazo]

Just now, Pasquale for King said:

So the UK governments advice on redundancies doesn’t mean anything? Standard of work or performance, skills or aptitude to do their work?
Nobody has done it so it can’t be done? If you’re hero had that attitude he wouldn’t have controlled Scotland in the 13th century would he?

We have zero grounds for making someone redundant without paying them in full that would allow us to employ someone else to do their job. We would have an unfair dismissal claims all over us. 

[Pasquale for King]

3 minutes ago, Nookie Bear said:

If we’re able to make players redundant on the same terms “normal” businesses do, it would be bigger than Bosman. 

Indeed, it can be done in the real world so why not in football, is all I’m saying.

[Pasquale for King]

2 minutes ago, Dazo said:

We have zero grounds for making someone redundant without paying them in full that would allow us to employ someone else to do their job. We would have an unfair dismissal claims all over us. 

Wrong. Go and look at the pictures I put up from the UK governments website. Ok here they are. This has been covered. Add In no income to pay wages.

Edited April 2, 2020 by Pasquale for King

[davemclaren]

18 minutes ago, Fozzyonthefence said:

What football debts are you referring to?

All the ones we paid on coming out of administration so we could play again.  I don’t have a list but @Footballfirst could likely help clarify what that covered?

[Dazo]

I don’t need to read that and posting that doesn’t make me wrong. 
 

what grounds are you making these players redundant? 

[Shanks]

5 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

So the UK governments advice on redundancies doesn’t mean anything? Standard of work or performance, skills or aptitude to do their work?
Nobody has done it so it can’t be done? If you’re hero had that attitude he wouldn’t have controlled Scotland in the 13th century would he?

 

Yes the UK governments advice on redundancies for football players means nothing.  Standard of work or performance, skills or aptitude to do their work means nothing.

 

How long have you been watching Hearts?  If it was possible for players to be made redundant based on performance I can tell you right now it would've been done before   Do you think football clubs all over the world are looking at your posts thinking "****ing hell, what's this redundancy thing?  We can just terminate player contracts free of charge??"  

 

I would be delighted if you were right but player contracts don't work that way.

Edited April 2, 2020 by Longshanks

[JamboAl]

19 minutes ago, Nookie Bear said:

 

From Ann’s statement:
(3) Staff and players alike, who feel unable or unwilling to accept this revision to their contracts, will, of course, be offered the option of contract termination.

Did you not see these 2 words?

Dikamona accepted this offer but said he'd like to come back.

If someone was wanted by another club they too could exercise this option but, apart from their not being paid by that club until the next window, are other clubs falling over themselves to sign new players as things stand?   A hae ma doots.

[Fozzyonthefence]

1 minute ago, David McCaig said:

Surely Ann Budge should just continue with the course of action she has started.

 

Ann is quite obviously not to blame for our current financial predicament and the steps she has taken to protect the club are 100% correct.

She’s not responsible for a world wide pandemic that has resulted in almost no income for the foreseeable future.  She is most certainly responsible, however, for the current financial predicament at date of suspension of the league.  If that position meant we didn’t have sufficient assets in the bank then she would be responsible for that.  That’s another debate.

 

If she invokes Article 12 she will get back a lot of the respect I have lost for her.

[Nookie Bear]

1 minute ago, JamboAl said:

Did you not see these 2 words?

Dikamona accepted this offer but said he'd like to come back.

If someone was wanted by another club they too could exercise this option but, apart from their not being paid by that club until the next window, are other clubs falling over themselves to sign new players as things stand?   A hae ma doots.

But she did mention it, which is what you asked 🤷‍♂️
 

 

[Pasquale for King]

1 minute ago, Longshanks said:

 

Yes the UK governments advice on redundancies for football players means nothing.  Standard of work or performance, skills or aptitude to do their work means nothing.

 

How long have you been watching Hearts?  If it was possible for players to be made redundant based on performance I can tell you right now it would've been done before   Do you think football clubs all over the world are looking at your posts thinking "****ing hell, what's this redundancy thing?  We can just terminate player contracts free of charge??"  

 

I would be delighted if you were right but player contracts don't work that way.

Yeah they work differently from everyone else’s don’t they 😃😆🙈. Not much point in repeating myself, Eddie was a ***** by the way.

[Nookie Bear]

Are you even allowed to make someone redundant and then replace them with someone else doing the same job?

[baxterd1974]

7 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

Indeed, it can be done in the real world so why not in football, is all I’m saying.

Because in the real world you make a position redundant, not a person.  Are we going to play with less players?

[Pasquale for King]

4 minutes ago, Dazo said:

I don’t need to read that and posting that doesn’t make me wrong. 
 

what grounds are you making these players redundant? 

Ffs can you at least read the posts in this page, the answer you look for is there.

[sac]

1 minute ago, JamboAl said:

Did you not see these 2 words?

Dikamona accepted this offer but said he'd like to come back.

If someone was wanted by another club they too could exercise this option but, apart from their not being paid by that club until the next window, are other clubs falling over themselves to sign new players as things stand?   A hae ma doots.

Don’t think there will be any transfers for money done anytime soon as it would be totally distasteful given the current climate.

Footballers better start thinking about doing the honourable or decent thing (wherever practicable) or they are going to emerge from this looking very badly if not already.

[Shanks]

Just now, Pasquale for King said:

Yeah they work differently from everyone else’s don’t they 😃😆🙈. Not much point in repeating myself, Eddie was a ***** by the way.

 

No worries

 

Also it's just a screen name mate, I'm not actually Edward.

[Pasquale for King]

1 minute ago, Nookie Bear said:

Are you even allowed to make someone redundant and then replace them with someone else doing the same job?

When you’re back on your feet financially  then yes.

[David McCaig]

3 minutes ago, Fozzyonthefence said:

She’s not responsible for a world wide pandemic that has resulted in almost no income for the foreseeable future.  She is most certainly responsible, however, for the current financial predicament at date of suspension of the league.  If that position meant we didn’t have sufficient assets in the bank then she would be responsible for that.  That’s another debate.

 

If she invokes Article 12 she will get back a lot of the respect I have lost for her.

We weren't in a financial predicament at the point of suspension!!!!

 

However, if we have no income for 6 months and don't trim our outgoing we will be up the creek without a paddle.

[baxterd1974]

Just now, Nookie Bear said:

Are you even allowed to make someone redundant and then replace them with someone else doing the same job?

No, you are not, ways and means to get around it in business by reinventing positions with different titles and job specs.  Can't quite see how that would work in football though.  

 

We made our wing back redundant, we are now playing with full back and they aren't allowed to go forward

 

[Pasquale for King]

Just now, Longshanks said:

 

No worries

 

Also it's just a screen name mate, I'm not actually Edward.

Yeah and not a nice one, can’t see many Hitlers/Thatcher’s/Stalins etc.

[Dazo]

5 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

Ffs can you at least read the posts in this page, the answer you look for is there.

So you can’t answer it. I’ve told you I don’t need to look because I know we can’t. Posting the same guidelines repeatedly without being able to substantiate it with details means nothing. 

Edited April 2, 2020 by Dazo

[sjh1874]

3 minutes ago, Nookie Bear said:

Are you even allowed to make someone redundant and then replace them with someone else doing the same job?

 

Not under employment law.

 

It is the position that is redundant not the person.

[Pasquale for King]

2 minutes ago, baxterd1974 said:

Because in the real world you make a position redundant, not a person.  Are we going to play with less players?

Are we playing at all? You can man up when you are in a better place financially.

We have 38 first team players, taking that down to 30 would be perfectly acceptable don’t you think? 

[Pasquale for King]

Just now, Dazo said:

So you can’t answer it. I’ve told you I don’t need to look because I know we can’t. Posting the same guidelines repeatedly with being able to substantiate it with details means nothing. 

I’ve put the answer up there dummy, if you can’t find it that’s your problem. We don’t have the money to pay wages, you or I can be made redundant if we are hopeless at our jobs, it can be done no matter what you or anyone else says.

[sjh1874]

1 minute ago, Pasquale for King said:

Are we playing at all? You can man up when you are in a better place financially.

We have 38 first team players, taking that down to 30 would be perfectly acceptable don’t you think? 

 In which case all players would need put "on notice" and a redundancy criteria drawn up and those deemed to be surplus relieved of their duties. Players contracts might be more onerous than those of Joe Public

[Hungry hippo]

23 minutes ago, Nookie Bear said:

Yes, and their negotiations would start at the full amount remaining on their contract. 
 

If I was a footballer I would much rather have the security of a two year deal than risk being a free agent right now. So they may well dig their heels in and say “pay up or I’ll see out my contract in the reserves”

 

The contract suspension threat is the negotiating tool available to the club. Also the argument of supporting the non playing staff at the club.

[Pasquale for King]

2 minutes ago, sjh1874 said:

 

Not under employment law.

 

It is the position that is redundant not the person.

So if we cut down from 38 first team players to 30 that be fine then?

[Shanks]

1 minute ago, Pasquale for King said:

Yeah and not a nice one, can’t see many Hitlers/Thatcher’s/Stalins etc.

 

I picked the screen name 14 years ago when I was a teenager and liked the movie braveheart 

 

Apologies if it bothers you

[sjh1874]

Just now, Pasquale for King said:

So if we cut down from 38 first team players to 30 that be fine then?

see above post re selection criteria

[Pasquale for King]

Just now, sjh1874 said:

 In which case all players would need put "on notice" and a redundancy criteria drawn up and those deemed to be surplus relieved of their duties. Players contracts might be more onerous than those of Joe Public

Indeed, it says that in the pictures I posted if anyone fancies reading them.

[Dazo]

3 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

I’ve put the answer up there dummy, if you can’t find it that’s your problem. We don’t have the money to pay wages, you or I can be made redundant if we are hopeless at our jobs, it can be done no matter what you or anyone else says.

Dummy ? 😂

 

No bother mate you bash on. I’m pretty sure you know better than all the football chief executive’s out there never mind me. 👍

Edited April 2, 2020 by Dazo

[Fozzyonthefence]

11 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

All the ones we paid on coming out of administration so we could play again.  I don’t have a list but @Footballfirst could likely help clarify what that covered?

I’m aware that happened - what I meant was are you comparing to football debts possibly arising out of a new admin event or out of a suspension of wages under Article 12?  If the latter, it would not be a football debt.

[Fraggle]

5 minutes ago, Nookie Bear said:

Are you even allowed to make someone redundant and then replace them with someone else doing the same job?

No, and it doesn't have to be the same job either. If it has (I think roughly) 75% similar job roles then there are grounds for unfair dismissal. I experienced this when my role was made redundant a few years and spoke with union rep friends at the time and this was some of the they stuff covered. 

[davemclaren]

3 minutes ago, Fozzyonthefence said:

I’m aware that happened - what I meant was are you comparing to football debts possibly arising out of a new admin event or out of a suspension of wages under Article 12?  If the latter, it would not be a football debt.

Neither really, I’m making the point that you may not just be able to make footballers redundant, as suggested by some, in the same way that you can non football staff. 

[Fozzyonthefence]

12 minutes ago, Longshanks said:

 

No worries

 

Also it's just a screen name mate, I'm not actually Edward.

Why did you choose that name out of interest?

[Pasquale for King]

10 minutes ago, Dazo said:

Dummy ? 😂

 

No bother mate you bash on. I’m pretty sure you know better than all the football chief executive’s out there never mind me. 👍

If you can’t accept what the government advice is on this subject, legally binding advice. Have players not been sacked by clubs for many different reasons? 

Edited April 2, 2020 by Pasquale for King

[Pasquale for King]

1 minute ago, davemclaren said:

Neither really, I’m making the point that you may not just be able to make footballers redundant, as suggested by some, in the same way that you can non football staff. 

Why? Are they different from you and I?