Wage cut for players and staff (Statement on 24/4)

[McCrae]

1 minute ago, Hungry hippo said:

 

We had to pay those players as they were owed the money. Assuming this clause is legally enforceable, the players contracts are not valid (suspended) for the period play is suspended and the club will not owe the players anything for that period.

possibility if the season is made void so will all contracts. May get out of it that way.

 

 

[davemclaren]

8 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

Yes but that’s not a law of the land and can be easily challenged in court, they can’t restrict your trade either.

That's correct, as Bosman showed, but FIFA/EUFA still make ‘supra’ legal rulings and expect clubs to follow them if they want to be a member. 

[busby1985]

4 minutes ago, McCrae said:

Nope.  The suspension only delays payment.

Not according to current players. 

[Squirt]

4 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

Interesting article here. 
 

https://fcbusiness.co.uk/news/covid-19-can-a-wage-reduction-be-imposed-on-football-players/

 

That article seems to reinforce the belief that, up here anyway, we have the right to suspend contracts, in fact technically every footballer in Scotland has automatically had their contract suspended until 30 April already.

[Fozzyonthefence]

19 minutes ago, McCrae said:

can only delay payment whilst league is suspended. Once it starts again they have to pay up.

 

You’re really not understanding this are you?  You’re getting contract suspension confused with the wage deferment that Hibs and other clubs are doing. 

[Hungry hippo]

Just now, McCrae said:

possibility if the season is made void so will all contracts. May get out of it that way.

 

 

 

Why do you think the players and SPFA don't just agree to the clause being invoked if you're understanding was correct? They want a deferral which is what you believe this is.

[davemclaren]

Just now, Squirt said:

 

That article seems to reinforce the belief that, up here anyway, we have the right to suspend contracts, in fact technically every footballer in Scotland has automatically had their contract suspended until 30 April already.

That’s what the article tells me. 

[busby1985]

5 minutes ago, Horatio Caine said:

If the above is true, it merely confirms that our players are even more stupid arseholes than we thought.

Paul McGowan confirmed as much in his appearance on the open goal podcast, about the non payment stuff. I also have a family member currently playing in the SPL who has had the email from the PFA that explains article 12 and how they are trying to speak to all clubs about not invoking it. 

[Squirt]

2 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

That’s what the article tells me. 

 

We need a bloody disclaimer at the top of this thread.

[busby1985]

7 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

That’s how I read it. 

I find the full thing bizarre. The players have been very badly advised here. I agree with what some of the other posters have said about the PFA and Wishart trying to use our case as the bench mark case to try stop other clubs invoking the article. 

[Pasquale for King]

3 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

That's correct, as Bosman showed, but FIFA/EUFA still make ‘supra’ legal rulings and expect clubs to follow them if they want to be a member. 

I think we will see how big they are when Man City sure them, we’ve already threatened legal action if they relegated us. Fraser Wishart has threatened legal action if clubs cut or suspend wages unilaterally. 

[luckydug]

6 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

Interesting article here. 
 

https://fcbusiness.co.uk/news/covid-19-can-a-wage-reduction-be-imposed-on-football-players/

That seems to be that then ☺

C'mon Ann you've been fair with these jokers, they have had their chance. 

Who does the legal advice for the players union  ?

How did they miss that  ?

A quick retreat is needed from them.

 

[Squirt]

4 minutes ago, busby1985 said:

I find the full thing bizarre. The players have been very badly advised here. I agree with what some of the other posters have said about the PFA and Wishart trying to use our case as the bench mark case to try stop other clubs invoking the article. 

 

I can only imagine the the PFA are hoping that social backlash against teams will help convince clubs not to do it. (Problem for them is we're Hearts and we hate most of our players anyway so have no sympathy from the start) I think push will come to shove for a fair few teams and there will be no option but to implement this clause. Hearts as ever will fall on the sword since we done it first, we'll get kicked pillar to post and then every other team will do the same but word it all nicey nice and it'll blow over for them.

Edited April 1, 2020 by Squirt

[Pasquale for King]

12 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

Interesting article here. 
 

https://fcbusiness.co.uk/news/covid-19-can-a-wage-reduction-be-imposed-on-football-players/

It is a good article you link sharing show off 😜

[Pasquale for King]

Just now, Squirt said:

 

I can only imagine the the PFA are hoping that social backlash against teams will help convince clubs not to do it. I think push will come to shove for a fair few teams and their will be no option. Hearts as ever will fall on the sword since we done it first, we'll get kicked pillar to post and then every other team will do the same but word it all nicey nice and it'll blow over for them.

If that’s their plan then they’ve really backed a loser in this scenario. 

[Squirt]

2 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

If that’s their plan then they’ve really backed a loser in this scenario. 

 

Mate I can't even begin to ponder what the "plan" here is. Right now whether they like it or not we've got the players they represent over a barrel and all they seem to be doing is poking the bear. If I was a Hearts player I'd be regretting asking them to get involved at all.

 

They can hardly threaten to down tools on us can they! 

Edited April 1, 2020 by Squirt

[EIEIO]

29 minutes ago, Hungry hippo said:

 

It is temporary but does not mean pay would need to be backdated. 

 

If it was just a deferral then the SPFA would tell Hearts to crack on with it as the players would be delighted they'd get 100% of their money.

 

 

This is my understanding too, an interesting clause.

[Fozzyonthefence]

8 minutes ago, busby1985 said:

Paul McGowan confirmed as much in his appearance on the open goal podcast, about the non payment stuff. I also have a family member currently playing in the SPL who has had the email from the PFA that explains article 12 and how they are trying to speak to all clubs about not invoking it. 

Can you imagine a club going cap in hand to a player or the SPFA pleading with them not to be made to honour their contract to the player?!

[Fozzyonthefence]

9 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

I think we will see how big they are when Man City sure them, we’ve already threatened legal action if they relegated us. Fraser Wishart has threatened legal action if clubs cut or suspend wages unilaterally. 

On what grounds though, if the SPFL have already suspended their contracts?! Any legal guys with an opinion on this?

 

This Article 12 does seem to be clear cut and the SPFA appear to be giving the players incredibly bad advice!

[luckydug]

23 minutes ago, McCrae said:

players have monthly expenses like the rest of us.

The rest of us are having to make sacrifices. 

So should they.

As you say we all have expenses but most of us have to cover them on less than what a Hearts player on half pay will have.

Any way now that clause 12 may be invoked and is clarified they would be crazy not to accept the 50% cut.

I hope they all decide to walk away.

It would let Daniel build his own team.

[JamboAl]

1 hour ago, Nookie Bear said:

This was in relation to making people redundant so “sack” was the wrong word. 
 

We can’t just let people go when they have contracts - no way will footballers give up 6-figure sums until their club is officially insolvent. 

Sack was definitely the wrong word - and there have been a few!

[Pasquale for King]

9 minutes ago, Squirt said:

 

Mate I can't even begin to ponder what the "plan" here is. Right now whether they like it or not we've got the players they represent over a barrel and all they seem to be doing is poking the bear. If I was a Hearts player I'd be regretting asking them to get involved at all.

 

They can hardly threaten to down tools on us can they! 

Yeah we’re not going to play as well or try when we return 🙈, not that any who refuse the cut should get the chance anyway. I think it’s just Wishart saying we did what we could, you signed the contract after all.

[Pasquale for King]

5 minutes ago, Fozzyonthefence said:

On what grounds though, if the SPFL have already suspended their contracts?! Any legal guys with an opinion on this?

 

This Article 12 does seem to be clear cut and the SPFA appear to be giving the players incredibly bad advice!

It’s all in the wording. Most lawyers will say they can fight it in court,lose,  make their money and move on. They’re bluffing I think.

[Fozzyonthefence]

36 minutes ago, McCrae said:

Football does though make the rules a club must follow if they want to play in the league.  That’s  why we had to play ex players wages when we came out of Admin.

It’s football rules that allow the club to suspend contracts / wages while the SPFL suspends the league.  It is not a football debt and the lost wages do not have to get paid back!

[Pasquale for King]

7 minutes ago, luckydug said:

The rest of us are having to make sacrifices. 

So should they.

As you say we all have expenses but most of us have to cover them on less than what a Hearts player on half pay will have.

Any way now that clause 12 may be invoked and is clarified they would be crazy not to accept the 50% cut.

I hope they all decide to walk away.

It would let Daniel build his own team.

I’m sure guys like Locke could’ve talked it through with them having been there when we couldn’t pay wages for months in end, 50% should cover their bills and there’s not much else to spend cash on just now.

My boss asked us how much we would need before Furlough became an option, I asked for enough to cover my mortgage and a little extra for food. He said I would get double that, it’s now triple that as he’s giving us the extra 20%. I wanted to make sure I had a job to go back to, it feels weird to be paid for doing nothing. I’m no sycophant either when it comes to my boss or employees in general but he‘a stepped up to the plate here. If he had said 50% of my wages I would’ve been happy enough. My wife is wondering who all these companies are that I’m donating too our our joint account 😃🤫.

[davemclaren]

15 minutes ago, Fozzyonthefence said:

On what grounds though, if the SPFL have already suspended their contracts?! Any legal guys with an opinion on this?

 

This Article 12 does seem to be clear cut and the SPFA appear to be giving the players incredibly bad advice!

They could argue it’s an unfair contract term. Be down to the courts then but that could take a while. 

[Last Laff]

4 hours ago, Pasquale for King said:

Shree 

And people think that’s normal and the club is being ran brilliant. Mental decisions.  You’ve got tubes on here backing Naismith and telling the rest to rot.  He will be completely fine. As club captain shouldn’t he be trying to get the group together to agree? Instead four highest paid player who has a four year deal and who is a multi millionaire agreeing to the cut and not leading the rest of the players seems to be the hero.  

[davemclaren]

4 minutes ago, Last Laff said:

And people think that’s normal and the club is being ran brilliant. Mental decisions.  You’ve got tubes on here backing Naismith and telling the rest to rot.  He will be completely fine. As club captain shouldn’t he be trying to get the group together to agree? Instead four highest paid player who has a four year deal and who is a multi millionaire agreeing to the cut and not leading the rest of the players seems to be the hero.  

Maybe they don’t want to be lead? I’ve no idea but it will out soon I think. 

[Pasquale for King]

4 minutes ago, Last Laff said:

And people think that’s normal and the club is being ran brilliant. Mental decisions.  You’ve got tubes on here backing Naismith and telling the rest to rot.  He will be completely fine. As club captain shouldn’t he be trying to get the group together to agree? Instead four highest paid player who has a four year deal and who is a multi millionaire agreeing to the cut and not leading the rest of the players seems to be the hero.  

We don’t know that he isn’t to be fair, he did agree pretty sharply and urged the others to do the same. As you say though  it’s easy for him, or the Barca players for example, that’s to his credit though. If the rest of these useless ***** can’t get by in 50% of their wages when there’s nothing but mortgages/bills/food to pay for then they need to a good look at their lifestyle.

[Pasquale for King]

2 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

Maybe they don’t want to be lead? I’ve no idea but it will out soon I think. 

Most of them move about as if they are lead to be honest.

[Fozzyonthefence]

13 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

They could argue it’s an unfair contract term. Be down to the courts then but that could take a while. 

Could the club not argue they have unfair contract terms for having to pay shite, underperforming players more than they are worth?!

[luckydug]

12 minutes ago, Last Laff said:

And people think that’s normal and the club is being ran brilliant. Mental decisions.  You’ve got tubes on here backing Naismith and telling the rest to rot.  He will be completely fine. As club captain shouldn’t he be trying to get the group together to agree? Instead four highest paid player who has a four year deal and who is a multi millionaire agreeing to the cut and not leading the rest of the players seems to be the hero.  

You do love the Devil's advocate act don't you ? 

 

[davemclaren]

13 minutes ago, Fozzyonthefence said:

Could the club not argue they have unfair contract terms for having to pay shite, underperforming players more than they are worth?!

No. 😎

[Pasquale for King]

5 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

No. 😎

Want a bet. This is the UK gov advice for making someone redundant.

[Guest ToqueJambo]

2 hours ago, Last Laff said:

And people think that’s normal and the club is being ran brilliant. Mental decisions.  You’ve got tubes on here backing Naismith and telling the rest to rot.  He will be completely fine. As club captain shouldn’t he be trying to get the group together to agree? Instead four highest paid player who has a four year deal and who is a multi millionaire agreeing to the cut and not leading the rest of the players seems to be the hero.  

 

Naismith has a very well-earned reputation for doing a lot of good with his money. This is completely in character. "Steven Naismith: Is this Britain's kindest footballer" https://www.cnn.com/2015/12/22/football/football-naismith-everton-homeless/index.html

 

Anyhow, if all the players can accept ZERO wages for who knows how long - 4 months potentially at least - and they're willing to risk losing their jobs completely they can afford to take a 50% pay cut now. 

Edited April 2, 2020 by ToqueJambo

[Guest ToqueJambo]

The English league now telling the players' union wage deferrals aren't enough. The SFA and SPFL lagging behind showing zero leadership as usual.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2020/apr/01/premier-league-tells-pfa-players-will-have-to-share-in-financial-pain

 

The Premier League and EFL have urged the footballers’ union to accept that players will have to take pay cuts, not just deferral of their wages, as the sport grapples with the enormous, unprecedented challenges presented by the Covid-19 crisis.

 

A YouGov poll released on Wednesday found that 92% of British people believe that Premier League players should accept a pay cut during the crisis, and 67% believe the cut should be at least a halving of their salary.

Edited April 2, 2020 by ToqueJambo

[Jambo 4 Ever]

8 hours ago, Mauricio Pinilla said:

 

First of all, that bit in brackets is hysterical daily mail shite. Get it in the bin. 

 

Also, a national health service shouldn't be relying on handouts from rich sportsmen. Sure it would be nice if rich people donated all their money but it shouldn't be needed. You need to go way higher up the chain than footballers to find where the problem is. Footballers are just an easy target for the hard of thinking. 

Footballers are overpaid 

[gashauskis9]

9 hours ago, soonbe110 said:

Yes, struggling to see any positives coming from everyone deferring their FoH payments. 
Im sure it will be fixed this week and also sure that she has them tied up in knots. SPFA that is. Another poster made the point that 50% of their current pay is much better than £2,500 per month. Think the SPFA trying to prevent all clubs going down the suspension of contracts route is the main issue at play. 

I don’t think there’s evidence that FOH payments are going to be deferred.  For as long as they are in reserve and not being used to meet operational day to day expenditure, I think they will continue or possibly increase.  It’s season tickets that will take the hit.

[ri Alban]

I'm starting to hate footballers. 

[Nookie Bear]

6 hours ago, Pasquale for King said:

Want a bet. This is the UK gov advice for making someone redundant.

If only we could do that, we could probably have a decent 5-a-side team 😁

[Seymour M Hersh]

8 hours ago, Fozzyonthefence said:

Because this is a football forum.

 

Okay then Hollywood actors to top footballers then. It was the randomness of it that's all. Why doctors.

[Nookie Bear]

3 hours ago, ToqueJambo said:

The English league now telling the players' union wage deferrals aren't enough. The SFA and SPFL lagging behind showing zero leadership as usual.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2020/apr/01/premier-league-tells-pfa-players-will-have-to-share-in-financial-pain

 

The Premier League and EFL have urged the footballers’ union to accept that players will have to take pay cuts, not just deferral of their wages, as the sport grapples with the enormous, unprecedented challenges presented by the Covid-19 crisis.

 

A YouGov poll released on Wednesday found that 92% of British people believe that Premier League players should accept a pay cut during the crisis, and 67% believe the cut should be at least a halving of their salary.

Not seen anything but have Sky and BT been making noises about the money they throw at English football? That will be the tipping point for the game down there. 

[Nookie Bear]

1 hour ago, Natural Orders said:

Footballers are overpaid 

Until I see a nurse ping one into the top corner from 30 yards, you’re wrong. 

[Seymour M Hersh]

2 minutes ago, Nookie Bear said:

Not seen anything but have Sky and BT been making noises about the money they throw at English football? That will be the tipping point for the game down there. 

 

Have Sky or BT reduced their charges to the public yet? Certainly Virgin have not as that's who I'm with. If they haven't then unless people are cancelling their subscriptions in droves they'll still be coining it in. 

[Stuart Lyon]

Sky has paused some sport fee and Virgin customers can get it too.

 

https://www.sky.com/help/articles/pause-sky-sports

Edited April 2, 2020 by Stuart Lyon

[Dazo]

Just now, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Have Sky or BT reduced their charges to the public yet? Certainly Virgin have not as that's who I'm with. If they haven't then unless people are cancelling their subscriptions in droves they'll still be coining it in. 

Both have suspended payments for sports. You need to apply it to your account, conveniently for them they don’t do it automatically. 

[Nookie Bear]

1 minute ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Have Sky or BT reduced their charges to the public yet? Certainly Virgin have not as that's who I'm with. If they haven't then unless people are cancelling their subscriptions in droves they'll still be coining it in. 

I think you would have to ask on an individual basis? 

[David McCaig]

Any Hearts player not prepared to take a temporary wage cut and that's cut not deferral should have their contract terminated via clause 12 with immediate effect... If that leaves us with the Youth Team so be it.
 

Wage deferral is a complete mirage of savings.  The money the club is losing just now is not money we will recover in the future, so where on earth is the club supposed to get the money to pay back this accrued debt when the game resumes?

[Seymour M Hersh]

Just now, Dazo said:

Both have suspended payments for sports. You need to apply it to your account, conveniently for them they don’t do it automatically. 

 

Quelle surprise! I don't have sports or movies but have everything else on virgin.    said to the wife wouldn't it be nice if, with so may millions in lockdown, Branso said that the movies you can rent for £4 or £5 for two days were offered for free during the lockdown but seeing how the bearded shitebag has behaved so far that's going to be a non-starter. 

[Dazo]

6 minutes ago, David McCaig said:

Any Hearts player not prepared to take a temporary wage cut and that's cut not deferral should have their contract terminated via clause 12 with immediate effect... If that leaves us with the Youth Team so be it.
 

Wage deferral is a complete mirage of savings.  The money the club is losing just now is not money we will recover in the future, so where on earth is the club supposed to get the money to pay back this accrued debt when the game resumes?

I agree with this but does clause 12 allow you to terminate ? I haven’t read it thoroughly but I thought it allowed suspension of full wages ? 
 

On that note the word suspension is a bit of a minefield I’d imagine.