Wage cut for players and staff (Statement on 24/4)

[Jamboelite]

15 minutes ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

Please please please let this be the cause of hamilton or st midden going into admin followed by a 15 point deduction 

I believe if its force majeure there is no penalty based on the rules.

.

[soonbe110]

1 hour ago, Fly the Saltire said:

Borussia Mönchengladbach players to forego part of their salary with a view to helping the club & fellow employees. Club coaching staff, directors and CEO have joined the players in taking this stance. “Hard times, Special measures.” - CEO Max Eberl. “I’m very proud of the lads.”

 

Contrast the mind set of German players and  managers  to many in the UK .

 

Could be a master stroke by Mrs Budge  to get rid of  highly paid  under performing players  albeit risking  no transfer fees for saleable assets.

Hickey for example  was not intending to sign a new contract  and  even in normal circumstances could  have left for a fairly modest amount this summer

No he couldn’t. 

[Pasquale for King]

16 minutes ago, Last Laff said:

You can’t just make footballers redundant without going into admin/liquidation. 

Yes you can, you can make people redundant in any line of work if you can’t pay their wages or if they’re not required. Remember when we released Ryan Stevenson who had a year left on his contract? It can be done, they are not protected in the real world anymore than anyone else, just by football rules that mean nothing in reality.

 

Edited March 19, 2020 by Pasquale for King

[Beast Boy]

2 hours ago, Gokuzo_The_Jambo said:

All the negative pish on this thread directed at the club or Budge is a joke. Nobody could have anticipated this in their yearly budget. Every UK budget will have an element of contingency, but not to the extent of a massive depression and ceasing of all social and culture spending. The club is taking steps to mitigate the damage and prevent disaster.

 

Football won't be the only victim in this situation. There are businesses all over the UK who are struggling right now, but if this continues, expect firms to go bust all over the UK (even with rescue plans 'promised by the UK gov'). That will in turn effect investment in the the construction industry, both private sector, public sector and housing. With reduced work, job cuts, lay offs, reduced disposable income, nobody will be spending or investing - all points to another recession on the horizon, especially if this is meant to last until July/Aug. House builders will most likely go pop, market value (stocks are crashing already) on everything will drop, banks will be ****ed (again). The longer this goes on the worse it will get. Any any injections of spending and loans now by the Goverment now will be felt a decade down the line in new taxes and conservative approaches on spending.

 

Good luck all.

I enjoyed this post.

[Hackney Hearts]

11 minutes ago, Last Laff said:

What football club in the world just starts terminating contracts for players who won’t accept paycuts without it being some kind of insolvency event?  There’s no way legally the club would get around just tearing up contracts ffs. 

 

The kind of football club in a world which is experiencing an unprecedented meltdown. The clubs will disappear FFS.

 

Legally

It's a global crisis.

[East Lothian Jambo]

8 minutes ago, OldGorgie said:

Difficult to argue with that. It makes you wonder where the FOH money has been spent.

New main stand most notably 

 

Pushed the player budget in summer and again in January. Last season the player budget received benefactor monies of £1M 

 

If that type of income was to get turned off then things might tighten 

[Pasquale for King]

2 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

No he couldn’t. 

Why couldn’t Hickey leave?

[soonbe110]

40 minutes ago, Diadora Van Basten said:

Our accounts look very strange to start the season with only £500k in the bank would be lunacy after selling £6m of season tickets.

 

I suspect that there is some kind of FOH financing of the stand that is off balance sheet.

 

I doubt we are in the worst position of the teams in the SPL. I actually suspect we are in the top half.

Where did FoH find the money for this ‘off balance sheet” financing? 

[Nookie Bear]

1 minute ago, Hackney Hearts said:

 

The kind of football club in a world which is experiencing an unprecedented meltdown. The clubs will disappear FFS.

 

Legally

It's a global crisis.

 

Doesnt mean you can just throw the rule book out of the window though.

[Last Laff]

11 minutes ago, OldGorgie said:

Difficult to argue with that. It makes you wonder where the FOH money has been spent.

The stand? A more competitive wage budget?  It’s not as if it’s been zoomed into a black hole.  Not sure either it can be used as a stick to hit Ann Budge with either. 

[Pasquale for King]

2 minutes ago, Hackney Hearts said:

 

The kind of football club in a world which is experiencing an unprecedented meltdown. The clubs will disappear FFS.

 

Legally

It's a global crisis.

Or any other business for that matter, it’s happening all over the world, legally.

[Last Laff]

2 minutes ago, Hackney Hearts said:

 

The kind of football club in a world which is experiencing an unprecedented meltdown. The clubs will disappear FFS.

 

Legally

It's a global crisis.

Well the football club will still have to go down the correct and legal route to coincide with the rules.  Global crisis or not there would be severe penalties otherwise. 

[colinmaroon]

Just now, Last Laff said:

The stand? A more competitive wage budget?  It’s not as if it’s been zoomed into a black hole.  Not sure either it can be used as a stick to hit Ann Budge with either. 

 

 

They don't need a stick!

 

Their imagination is sufficient.

 

[EIEIO]

15 minutes ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

Maybe the scottish government will throw some money at scottish football. Problem is the general public wouldn't accept it when our schools and hospitals are in ruins.

Not to mention several million people without jobs either permanently or temporarily due to CV.

[Last Laff]

8 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

Yes you can, you can make people redundant in any line of work if you can’t pay their wages or if they’re not required. Remember when we released Ryan Stevenson who had a year left on his contract? It can be done, they are not protected in the real world anymore than anyone else, just by football rules that mean nothing in reality.

 

Stevo’ agreed to it though.  There’s a difference between voluntary redundancies and just ripping up professional football contracts and not getting hit with severe penalties.

 

If this is a cost cutting exercise that Ann Budge is ahead of the game going on here then it’s not going to lead to mass redundancies and administration regardless.  But you can’t just tear up contracts to unwilling parties who don’t agree to their wages being halved. 

Edited March 19, 2020 by Last Laff

[Last Laff]

2 minutes ago, colinmaroon said:

 

 

They don't need a stick!

 

Their imagination is sufficient.

 

True 👍

[Jambof3tornado]

55 minutes ago, kila said:

There is a risk for the players in walking away now. Will they find another club who wants them?

 

Not based on form. Certainly not paying current salary(pre pay cut offer).

[Footballfirst]

Douglas Fraser@BBCDouglasF 9m

@EDI_Airport  announces plans to shut down much of it, but stay open, at least for freight, mail, medical flights. At least 100 of 750 jobs on the payroll will go, maybe many more. Traffic this month -65%, much of that now in repatriation flights

Around 7000 people work in or around @EDI_Airport. Shops, restaurants, bars being shuttered, with only 3 expected to remain open. Assuming a 2-month shutdown of most flights, management working on assumption that passenger traffic will be half of 2019.

 

That is the reality of what is happening outside the football bubble. Note that at least 100 jobs will go. Those people will have contracts. They can be broken.

 

It's football that needs to sort out its navel gazing and self interest rule book.

 

[colinmaroon]

2 hours ago, Gokuzo_The_Jambo said:

All the negative pish on this thread directed at the club or Budge is a joke. Nobody could have anticipated this in their yearly budget. Every UK budget will have an element of contingency, but not to the extent of a massive depression and ceasing of all social and culture spending. The club is taking steps to mitigate the damage and prevent disaster.

 

Football won't be the only victim in this situation. There are businesses all over the UK who are struggling right now, but if this continues, expect firms to go bust all over the UK (even with rescue plans 'promised by the UK gov'). That will in turn effect investment in the the construction industry, both private sector, public sector and housing. With reduced work, job cuts, lay offs, reduced disposable income, nobody will be spending or investing - all points to another recession on the horizon, especially if this is meant to last until July/Aug. House builders will most likely go pop, market value (stocks are crashing already) on everything will drop, banks will be ****ed (again). The longer this goes on the worse it will get. Any any injections of spending and loans now by the Goverment now will be felt a decade down the line in new taxes and conservative approaches on spending.

 

Good luck all.

 

Realities, in the midst of unsubstantiated opinion trying to pass itself of as real.

 

 

[Last Laff]

14 minutes ago, HMFC-1874 said:

 

You ask what club... A club that is unsure how everything is going to pan out with this virus... I think it's a good idea, as currently we are not sure how long this could on go for...

It's the club attempting to save money and survive when no money is coming in for the foreseeable, by doing this they are able to make sure everyone still has a job, and at the very least everyone is being paid the living wage.

 

Surely compared to what other business and their poor employees are suffering at the moment it's a wise step going forward what hearts are attempting?

No club without going into a insolvency event is tearing up football players contracts regardless of how unsure they are of the future.  If the player doesn’t agree to it you simply can’t do it.  

[Pasquale for King]

1 minute ago, Last Laff said:

Stevo’ agreed to it though.  There’s a difference between voluntary redundancies and just ripping up professional football contracts and not getting hit with severe penalties.

 

If this is a cost cutting exercise that Ann Budge is ahead of the game doing here then it’s not going to lead to mass redundancies and administration regardless.  But you can’t just tear up contracts to unwilling parties who don’t agree to their wages being halved. 

He agreed to a wage cut, he was released without agreeing. What part of anyone in any job in the world can be made redundant at any time isn’t clear enough? Have you lived in a bubble? Have you never been sacked? It can be done, a payoff of some sort can be agreed or you can go to court (as Levein did when he was sacked by Scotland). The law most certainly is in favour of employers. 

[Hackney Hearts]

5 minutes ago, Last Laff said:

Well the football club will still have to go down the correct and legal route to coincide with the rules.  Global crisis or not there would be severe penalties otherwise. 

 

The point is, the rules will have to change - not just for us, but for all clubs (and all sorts of other businesses) - to deal with the current situation.

[Pasquale for King]

3 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

Douglas Fraser@BBCDouglasF 9m

@EDI_Airport  announces plans to shut down much of it, but stay open, at least for freight, mail, medical flights. At least 100 of 750 jobs on the payroll will go, maybe many more. Traffic this month -65%, much of that now in repatriation flights

Around 7000 people work in or around @EDI_Airport. Shops, restaurants, bars being shuttered, with only 3 expected to remain open. Assuming a 2-month shutdown of most flights, management working on assumption that passenger traffic will be half of 2019.

 

That is the reality of what is happening outside the football bubble. Note that at least 100 jobs will go. Those people will have contracts. They can be broken.

 

It's football that needs to sort out its navel gazing and self interest rule book.

 

Might get the bus out and nick their toilet rolls.

[DETTY29]

1 hour ago, JamboAl said:

In the final analysis we can simply go into liquidation and the employees will get next to nothing.

We can then go along to Ibrox for advice and start up the next day as a new club with all our old honours etc and pretend it did not happen.

And thank christ it happened to Rangers and we got out of admin.

[Footballfirst]

“I thought she would be looking ahead, summing up the situation and doing what she thinks is right for the survival of the club, because that’s what she’s doing – it’s about making sure the club is still here after the virus.

“These are peculiar circumstances. We don’t know the end result. I know what it’s like to operate with a cash flow when you’re dependent on weekly and monthly income.

“This is different when – say it’s the weather, even postponing just one game, the income from that game is budgeted to pay your wages. So I understand the problem the club has now.

“Ann is looking at the situation, thinking, ‘We’ve already missed games and we don’t know when the picture will change. It could be two weeks, two months or even longer – so we need to do something right now.’

“To me that does seem to be the right thing to do.

“To wait too long and not do anything could be more dangerous for the sustainability of the club. Ann is right to do what she thinks is necessary now.”

 

Bryan Jackson.

 

https://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/sport/bryan-jackson-backs-hearts-ceo-ann-budge-over-wage-cut/

[DETTY29]

26 minutes ago, OldGorgie said:

Difficult to argue with that. It makes you wonder where the FOH money has been spent.

No it doesn't.

 

It has pretty much all been accounted for in line with expectations.

Edited March 19, 2020 by DETTY29

[Francis Albert]

30 minutes ago, OldGorgie said:

Difficult to argue with that. It makes you wonder where the FOH money has been spent.

On stabilising the club ie on supporting finances/working capital for 3 years, on an unnecessarily expensive and ambitious new stand with surplus facilities, and on paying back Ann's loan with accumulated interest of about three quarters of a million.

On the latter despite all the claims that she could have doubled her return by investing in the stock market she has come out pretty well by not losing unless she would have had the foresight to get out before Coronavirus.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 19, 2020 by Francis Albert

[Hackney Hearts]

12 minutes ago, Nookie Bear said:

 

Doesnt mean you can just throw the rule book out of the window though.

 

In cases where the rules need to be broken, as said above, the rule book will shortly be re-written (it is already happening in various areas).

 

You can't normally just stop paying your mortgage, or your rent - but if circumstances dictate, etc.

[Mr Elwood P]

22 minutes ago, Barack said:

If it starts, I doubt fans will be allowed. If they are...quite feasible it could be limited. Which will defeat the object in Scotland, given gate receipt dependence.

 

Taken from today:

"The UK’s science and medical advisers, including chief medical officer, Prof Chris Whitty, are holding a press briefing on the coronavirus crisis.

Prof Whitty said the UK was "dealing with uncertainty", but added that scientists had "accelerated knowledge from virtually nothing in January through to where we are now".

He said: "But there are quite a lot of critical questions which we do not know the answer to now - we will know the answer in six months or a year's time."

 

On the above basis. How can you as advisors to the UK government, say it's now perfectly safe 3 or 4 months down the line to resume mass gatherings. When in 6 months to a year, you probably still don't have the full facts as to how to mitigate the effects of the virus, and have reasonable information in which to combat and reduce its spread again, even if the numbers level off?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I watched that press conference. They couldn’t say social distancing measures wouldn’t need to stay in force until a vaccine arrives. That would potentially kill every single football club.

[Colonel Kurtz]

budges family and friends will loose a fair bit

[Rogue Daddy]

From Sky Sports News:

 

Southern: 'Hearts are just the start'

Former Hearts managing director David Southern expects more clubs to follow their lead in slashing operating costs.

And he believes decisions made now will be critical in efforts to mitigate the worst of the crisis and ensure that all 42 clubs across the SPFL have a future.

"Hearts is simply the first out of the blocks, if you like," Southern said when referencing the implications of the current shutdown.

"There will be more and I would almost be concerned if clubs weren't announcing plans such as (what) Ann Budge and the board of directors at Hearts have done.

"It's all about resilience but football clubs are far from immune to our current situation, in fact they are very exposed to it.

"What happens now in boardrooms across the country will dictate whether these clubs exist in not just two or three months' time, but two or three years' time. Most clubs should survive.

"The majority of football clubs' wages actually account for the vast amount of cost. The 12 Premiership clubs in Scotland, between 56 and 97 per cent of their overall cost base is wages.

"Hearts is very well managed in terms of its actual salary. Hearts sits at 56 per cent salary to turnover ratio. The industry standard globally is 65 per cent.

"The focus also has to be not just on cutting staff costs, but it must be on cutting every single operating cost that is non-essential and every single piece of capital investment that is non-essential."

 

[Pasquale for King]

5 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

“I thought she would be looking ahead, summing up the situation and doing what she thinks is right for the survival of the club, because that’s what she’s doing – it’s about making sure the club is still here after the virus.

“These are peculiar circumstances. We don’t know the end result. I know what it’s like to operate with a cash flow when you’re dependent on weekly and monthly income.

“This is different when – say it’s the weather, even postponing just one game, the income from that game is budgeted to pay your wages. So I understand the problem the club has now.

“Ann is looking at the situation, thinking, ‘We’ve already missed games and we don’t know when the picture will change. It could be two weeks, two months or even longer – so we need to do something right now.’

“To me that does seem to be the right thing to do.

“To wait too long and not do anything could be more dangerous for the sustainability of the club. Ann is right to do what she thinks is necessary now.”

 

Bryan Jackson.

 

https://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/sport/bryan-jackson-backs-hearts-ceo-ann-budge-over-wage-cut/

I wonder if he would fancy taking over from Budge when the time comes.

[Pasquale for King]

1 minute ago, Mr Elwood P said:

I watched that press conference. They couldn’t say social distancing measures wouldn’t need to stay in force until a vaccine arrives. That would potentially kill every single football club.

12-18 months apparently.

[Ted Hastings]

1 hour ago, fabienleclerq said:

 

Damour would be the first one I bounced. Woeful footballer, can't pass it 5 yards, turns like a tanker (which has cost us two goals alone) can't tackle, shits out of tackles. 

 

On reflection i do agree with most of your points, he single handedly gifted hibs their second goal at the last home derby because he spent so long dithering on the ball.

 

Our midfield has been so abject for so long that seeing him and Bozanic look busy and industrious for two recent games has been enough for me to think he was playing well when in reality he was just a bit less awful than the alternatives. 

[Ex member of the SaS]

Yes I know it's Phil three names , however it's his accountant guy he is quoiting, Can't copy and paste so you will just have to go to his site to read it. Casts a big black cloud over Hunbrox.

 

https://philmacgiollabhain.ie/2020/03/19/rugger-guy-looks-at-sevcos-cash-situation-during-the-shutdown/#more-16031

[Footballfirst]

8 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

I wonder if he would fancy taking over from Budge when the time comes.

 

I suggested to FOH more than a year ago that he be invited onto the Board.

 

I'm sure he would do a fine job as either Chairman or Chief Exec of the club.

[Francis Albert]

13 minutes ago, Colonel Kurtz said:

budges family and friends will loose a fair bit

Not from their involvement with Hearts!

[Last Laff]

24 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

He agreed to a wage cut, he was released without agreeing. What part of anyone in any job in the world can be made redundant at any time isn’t clear enough? Have you lived in a bubble? Have you never been sacked? It can be done, a payoff of some sort can be agreed or you can go to court (as Levein did when he was sacked by Scotland). The law most certainly is in favour of employers. 

Incorrect.  He told hearts he wouldn’t play again until his wages got paid and agreed to a release eventually. 
 

Football protects the players and if the club is to just terminate contracts they will be heavily punished.  I’m not going to insult you as you borderline are me as I respect your posts.

 

You wouldn’t be able to name an example of any professional football club who just start sacking players for not agreeing to paycuts unless it was during administration though and if there has been one they would have been given a severe penalty such as points reduction of demotion.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/16299339

Edited March 19, 2020 by Last Laff

[East Lothian Jambo]

7 minutes ago, Ex member of the SaS said:

Yes I know it's Phil three names , however it's his accountant guy he is quoiting, Can't copy and paste so you will just have to go to his site to read it. Casts a big black cloud over Hunbrox.

 

https://philmacgiollabhain.ie/2020/03/19/rugger-guy-looks-at-sevcos-cash-situation-during-the-shutdown/#more-16031

He's utterly fixated on Rangers 

[The Real Maroonblood]

21 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

“I thought she would be looking ahead, summing up the situation and doing what she thinks is right for the survival of the club, because that’s what she’s doing – it’s about making sure the club is still here after the virus.

“These are peculiar circumstances. We don’t know the end result. I know what it’s like to operate with a cash flow when you’re dependent on weekly and monthly income.

“This is different when – say it’s the weather, even postponing just one game, the income from that game is budgeted to pay your wages. So I understand the problem the club has now.

“Ann is looking at the situation, thinking, ‘We’ve already missed games and we don’t know when the picture will change. It could be two weeks, two months or even longer – so we need to do something right now.’

“To me that does seem to be the right thing to do.

“To wait too long and not do anything could be more dangerous for the sustainability of the club. Ann is right to do what she thinks is necessary now.”

 

Bryan Jackson.

 

https://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/sport/bryan-jackson-backs-hearts-ceo-ann-budge-over-wage-cut/

👍

[Last Laff]

23 minutes ago, Hackney Hearts said:

 

The point is, the rules will have to change - not just for us, but for all clubs (and all sorts of other businesses) - to deal with the current situation.

They will probably need to change, of that I will agree.  Best stick to the rules just now though instead of hitting and hoping. 

[JamboAl]

1 minute ago, Last Laff said:

Incorrect.  He told hearts he wouldn’t play again until his wages got paid and agreed to a release eventually. 
 

Football protects the players and if the club is to just terminate contracts they will be heavily punished.  I’m not going to insult you as job borderline are me as I respect your posts.

 

You wouldn’t be able to name an example of any professional football club who just start sacking players for not agreeing to paycuts unless it was during administration though and if there has been one they would have been given a severe penalty such as points reduction of demotion.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/16299339

Are you saying Bryan Jackson is wrong?

Who's going to PUNISH a club that goes tits up?

You can't get blood from a stone.

[Last Laff]

4 minutes ago, JamboAl said:

Are you saying Bryan Jackson is wrong?

Who's going to PUNISH a club that goes tits up?

You can't get blood from a stone.

Has Bryan Jackson said football clubs get away with mass termination of contracts without occurring a penalty aye?

 

What club is going tits up exactly? 
 

Al, name one football club that has terminated players contracts (unwillingly) that hasn’t been during an insolvency event that got away with it with no charge? Name just one. 

Edited March 19, 2020 by Last Laff

[Francis Albert]

17 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

I wonder if he would fancy taking over from Budge when the time comes.

I hope we appoint someone with a record of successfully running a football club or similar business. Jackson is great at saving apparently hopeless cases in administration but I'd hope that that won't be the main criterion for appointing the next CEO.

[kila]

2 minutes ago, Last Laff said:

Has Bryan Jackson said football clubs get away with mass termination of contracts without occurring a penalty aye?

 

What club is going tits up exactly? 
 

Al, name one football club that has terminated players contracts (unwillingly) that hasn’t been during an insolvency event that got away with it with no charge? Name just one. 

 

Has football ever suffered like this in the past from an event? Since WWII days anyway.

 

[Footballfirst]

4 minutes ago, kila said:

 

Has football ever suffered like this in the past from an event? Since WWII days anyway.

 

The 1963 freeze saw games postponed for weeks on end and the season extended.

 

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/football/11174639/leicester-english-football-paused-winter-1963/ 

 

I'm not sure if any club folded directly as a result.

[Francis Albert]

On the termination of contracts point the club can't ignore football rules and the consequences of breaching them. It seems the Players Union is involved already which reinforces that point.

I agree lots of football rules will disappear before this thing is over because almost all clubs will go under if the current rules are maintained and enforced.

I suspect the statement is vaguer than simply saying players and others not accepting the 50% cut will agree to terminate their contracts/accept voluntary redundancy or alternatively be made compulsorily redundant … because to say so would immediately risk football rules being applied. 

[Last Laff]

8 minutes ago, kila said:

 

Has football ever suffered like this in the past from an event? Since WWII days anyway.

 

Probably not, and if so I don’t think it would have been any time in the professional game like now.

 

 I don’t think that would stand up in court or against a footballing panel though unless the rules are drastically changed.  You can’t just start making your own rules and ways up and in any case - I don’t think the club have stated anywhere that players who don’t accept the pay cut will have their contracts terminated.  They’ve said players and staff alike will be offered the option of contract termination NOT that it’s contract termination if the wage reduction offer isn’t accepted. 

Edited March 19, 2020 by Last Laff

[IveSeenTheLight]

I read that Ann Budge just received a repayment of a loan.

Could she offer to reissue that money, again as a loan, to save having to reduce the wages of the Hearts staff?

It may push back the fan ownership a bit but secures the staff.

[Pasquale for King]

24 minutes ago, Last Laff said:

Incorrect.  He told hearts he wouldn’t play again until his wages got paid and agreed to a release eventually. 
 

Football protects the players and if the club is to just terminate contracts they will be heavily punished.  I’m not going to insult you as you borderline are me as I respect your posts.

 

You wouldn’t be able to name an example of any professional football club who just start sacking players for not agreeing to paycuts unless it was during administration though and if there has been one they would have been given a severe penalty such as points reduction of demotion.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/16299339

I can’t seem to paste this but here is the later BBC piece I was quoting. I’m not saying clubs will do it but they can legally, my point is that football rules mean nothing in the real world anymore than those in any sport. I think an agreement will be made to pay them off at a time when we can afford to do so. Just getting a bit rage about being sacked and football thinking they’re above the law off my chest, didn’t mean to offend anyone. 

Edited March 19, 2020 by Pasquale for King