They Can't Relegate Us (Legally)

[Jambof3tornado]

6 minutes ago, Deevers said:

Would probably be play each other twice  = 26 games

split in to top and bottom 7 and play each other twice = 12 games

38 games. Still giving the TV their Old Firm games.

Thats a lot of games after the split...first 2 rounds of games massive incentive to get points on the board. Huge incentive also not to be bottom 7 if 2 automatically go down plus 1 from a play off. 

[Victorian]

3 minutes ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

 

Yip. 😍

 

It's the ambitious vista to have.    I'll accept our fate when it comes,   albeit with some ferocious complaints if it's unfair,   but I'm keeping an eye on the other possibilities.     

 

We have FoH.   They have **** all.

[Bazzas right boot]

36 minutes ago, IveSeenTheLight said:

‘That is such a contradictory post

 

 

No. 

 

Celtic are 12 clear. 

Utd 19 clear. 

 

We are 4 behind. 

 

If this was a Utd forum we'd all be argueing the opposite. 

 

Liverpool.... 

 

Null and void is Likley the way apart from completing the season, but as I've said several times, several times  now I can see merit in all options and also the issues they present. 

 

 

Saying that Celtic (maybe) but imo Utd deserve the league but we do not deserve to be relegated is not contradictory, it's acknowledging the merit of each situation on it's own and seeing the positives and negatives from both sides. 

 

 

And Sutton can do one as well, just seen that. 

. 

[Class of 75]

Contrast the gulf in class between Klopp and Lemon. The former has stated that if Liverpool are not awarded the title it is not the end of the world as there are more important things than football whereas the latter is throwing his toys out the pram is Celtic don't get the title by default. 

[JimmyCant]

3 minutes ago, The_razors_edge said:
 

the SPFL’s rules and regulations state teams will only be promoted and relegated upon completion of all 38 league matches. Likewise with dishing out trophies.

 

they’d be in breach of their own rules and regulations if they forced relegation upon us. 
 

Can you copy and paste that regulation they’d be breaching. That would put this nonsense to bed for good ?

 

 

[Forever Hearts]

39 minutes ago, Des Lynam said:

I think we can all agree Celtic will be well deserved champions. 

Only after the fixtures are completed, yes. Right now, they have won nothing.

[The_razors_edge]

2 minutes ago, JimmyCant said:

Can you copy and paste that regulation they’d be breaching. That would put this nonsense to bed for good ?

 

 

 

[SectionDJambo]

8 minutes ago, Jamhammer said:

Haha. What a ******* divot 

I'm fairly sure Lennon was saying that Celtic couldn't take anything for granted, they had to finish the job, when the games were still being played. 

Now it's geez the title.

The small points difference at the bottom makes it very dubious to make a simple decision like finish as it is. We could also have done ourselves a big favour if we had won in Paisley, as we wouldn't be bottom now.

[JimmyCant]

If the season isn’t completed some sets of fans are going to be raging and other sets are going to range from smug as feck to highly relieved.

 

i think the answer might be to confirm the obvious outcomes such as Dundee Utd Liverpool, Cove and another one (unfortunately) any issues where there is ‘reasonable doubt’ such as Hearts have to be null and void. Do that then see what you need to do to make the leagues work next season. Suspend the cup and try and fit it in at the start of next season. It’s only 3 games so ought to be doable.

[Victorian]

The decision to take will not take into account someone's judgement view of how points gaps appear on the table.    There can be no credible decision to decree that our 4 points gap is small enough to declare the relegation battle still uncertain and their 12 point gap declared settled and certain.    Where would one draw the line?    Us 5 behind?    7 behind?    Them 11 ahead?    9 ahead?

 

No.   Total mumbo jumbo.     It can only be determined without any input from the numbers on a league table.

[OTT]

Germany have acted first, and their plan seems the best of both worlds. No one really loses out. 

 

I personally think that declaring the season void is necessary because if you award Celtic the cup you then award them the prize money. IMO because of the precarious financial position clubs in Scotland are forced into through the SFA/Doncaster's inability to secure a competitive TV deal we are all (outside of Celtic) in a situation where ticket sales are make or break. 

 

Withholding Prize money from ALL clubs and then ensuring that the money they would have made via ticket sales is replaced as a solidarity payment between all the clubs makes sense, with the remainder being divided up based on league placing. 

 

I think the SFA are going to make an absolute Tom Hunt of it and cause a lot of unnecessary worrying/ financial difficulty in their pursuit of trying to appease the one club who don't need money. 

 

Suspect whatever England do they'll copy. We've already stole the name of their leagues and branding, so it really wouldn't surprise me. Spineless *****. 

[Beast Boy]

47 minutes ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

 

They could if they take it as is. 

 

As I said, it is an option. 

 

If the league ends now, then it is mathematically impossible for us to catch Hamilton and anyone to catch celtic as the league is... Finished. 

 

[JimmyCant]

16 minutes ago, The_razors_edge said:

 

Excellent stuff. Couldn’t possibly be more clear and definite. Thanks 

[Boab]

Just now, Special Officer Doofy said:

 

Don’t....just leave it.....!

[milky_26]

35 minutes ago, Victorian said:

The Holy Trinity of consequences that could play out...

 

1.   We dodge relegation,  causing untold torment to the vermin.

2.   Celtic do not get the title,  causing Defcon 1 levels of seethe.

3.   Hibs finances sail down the shitter and they collapse.

 

And realistic.

add in playing the cup semis and final in october and us winning it

[pettigrewsstylist]

2 hours ago, viva hate said:

EPL reported to be looking at similar, looks like the best way forward in my opinion. Celtic crowned champions as well? 

Do we get the cup??

[pettigrewsstylist]

22 minutes ago, The_razors_edge said:

 

Well done mate 👍 What about the AB fair play gesture that voluntarily relegates us tho 😂😂😂 where is i8??

[pettigrewsstylist]

11 minutes ago, OTT said:

Germany have acted first, and their plan seems the best of both worlds. No one really loses out. 

 

I personally think that declaring the season void is necessary because if you award Celtic the cup you then award them the prize money. IMO because of the precarious financial position clubs in Scotland are forced into through the SFA/Doncaster's inability to secure a competitive TV deal we are all (outside of Celtic) in a situation where ticket sales are make or break. 

 

Withholding Prize money from ALL clubs and then ensuring that the money they would have made via ticket sales is replaced as a solidarity payment between all the clubs makes sense, with the remainder being divided up based on league placing. 

 

I think the SFA are going to make an absolute Tom Hunt of it and cause a lot of unnecessary worrying/ financial difficulty in their pursuit of trying to appease the one club who don't need money. 

 

Suspect whatever England do they'll copy. We've already stole the name of their leagues and branding, so it really wouldn't surprise me. Spineless *****. 

Good concept that. No idea how feasible mind.

[DETTY29]

1 hour ago, jambogaza said:

One option is let 1st to 10th stand. Hearts and Hamilton to face each other over two games. Loser plays 2nd place in championship. 

 

Much better than just letting the whole league stand. 

Motherwell and Aberdeen would also need a European play off too in the event Hearts or Hibs, ok Hearts win the Scottish Cup if played.

[Boab]

Just now, OTT said:

Germany have acted first, and their plan seems the best of both worlds. No one really loses out. 

 

I personally think that declaring the season void is necessary because if you award Celtic the cup you then award them the prize money. IMO because of the precarious financial position clubs in Scotland are forced into through the SFA/Doncaster's inability to secure a competitive TV deal we are all (outside of Celtic) in a situation where ticket sales are make or break. 

 

Withholding Prize money from ALL clubs and then ensuring that the money they would have made via ticket sales is replaced as a solidarity payment between all the clubs makes sense, with the remainder being divided up based on league placing. 

 

I think the SFA are going to make an absolute Tom Hunt of it and cause a lot of unnecessary worrying/ financial difficulty in their pursuit of trying to appease the one club who don't need money. 

 

Suspect whatever England do they'll copy. We've already stole the name of their leagues and branding, so it really wouldn't surprise me. Spineless *****. 

Last paragraph is, sadly, spot on. 
In an unprecedented situation like this, you would think, with different situations in each of the Euro leagues, that we would make a decision on our particular circumstances.

We won’t though. We’ll do as we did yesterday and follow their lead. 

Edited March 14, 2020 by Boab

[viva hate]

2 minutes ago, pettigrewsstylist said:

Do we get the cup??

Wouldn't that be great! Sure the article I read mentioned the EPL might scrap the cups or a cup to allow the time for the extra fixtures. 

[Victorian]

Right,  oor cup.   Let's have the open top bus parade... oh we can't.    We'll need to do the one Hibs did instead.

[Redhelen]

45 minutes ago, Class of 75 said:

Clown. He hates the Hearts 

I love the contradiction here!  Are you sure it's the same Chris Sutton! ?

[pettigrewsstylist]

Surely we just have relevant fans forums complete remaining fixtures via medium of  subbuteo league.

All fixtures at Ingliston on same gala day, only 499 allowed to attend, tickets include x10 stella and 2 bottles of mad dog 20/20. Respirators issued at door.

Results promulgated via teletext.

Job done.

No tv camera allowed but live periscope streaming permitted.

Be just like Tennents 6s all over again 😎

[johnthomas]

On 13/03/2020 at 10:37, Mid Calder Jambo said:

Brilliant time to bite the bullet and reorganise the leagues.  Everyone would be happy then, other than St Johnstone, Kilmarnock and Livingston who sell their soul to the gruesome twosome.

Bit unfair . Aberdeen opposed the change in voting rules 

[pettigrewsstylist]

1 minute ago, johnthomas said:

Bit unfair . Aberdeen opposed the change in voting rules 

Sluts

[Beast Boy]

17 minutes ago, Boab said:

Don’t....just leave it.....!

Down the rabbit hole stuff.

[Mundaydog]

Seems to be a lot of talk about finishing this season... what if it drags on and on, then 20/21 season becomes a non possibility...

i think decision has to be made quickly regarding the league being finished and who gets what and who goes where.
Then all the clubs can at least plan season ticket sales. For whatever league they end up in. Ticket sales might be enough to tide a few clubs over for a bit.

Me personally, i would call this season null & void.

If and when 20/21 season can go ahead, my thoughts are - Currently 42 teams in the leagues. No relegation from any division this season.

Make it a 16 team top league. 16 team 1st division, 2nd division made up to 16 with teams from lowland & Highland leagues.

Play each other twice. 
2 up / 2 down automatically at end of the season. 3rd top (1st, 2nd divs) play 3rd bottom of league above.

scrap the mini ‘league’ in the league cup and go to a 2 leg system. If when Premier clubs come into the draw. No matter the order the tie is drawn. If a premier club draw a lower league club the Premier club are away from home for 1st leg (potential bigger crowd for smaller club).

if 20/21 goes ahead, through Aug/ Sep/Oct have games on Friday evening, Sat lunchtime & 3pm. Sun lunchtime, Tuesday evening.

folk will potentially have went months without football. Sky & BT will be desperate. No F1, golf, tennis, cricket etc. Time to renegotiate the tv deal. 

 

[Rudi5kaceldream1ng]

26 minutes ago, JimmyCant said:

Excellent stuff. Couldn’t possibly be more clear and definite. Thanks 

Yes from a legal perspective the definitive answer is no-we cannot be legally relegated unless we complete all fixtures in the league season.

 

Should the spfl try to take any other decision which is in contradiction to their own specified rule book-hearts can and will pursue a substantive legal case and will win that case. 

 

Law isn’t about emotions or subjectivity. It’s about application of rules and the strict adherence to them. 

 

Can hearts prove prove that the spfl would be in direct contravention of their own stated rules if they opt to relegate hearts? Yes. 

 

Therefore we’re not getting relegated unless this league season can be completed-it’s as simple as that.

 

[Gambo]

Null and void this season including Scottish Cup.

 

Give everyone a rest.

 

As a one off, due to exceptional circumstances, start next season with two leagues made up of the top two divisions, and bottom 2 divisions.

 

Yes that means more games, but for this one season do away with League Cup to free up dates. Start early August and do away with winter break.

 

Final league positions would determine which league you will be in the following sesson when we revert back to normal set up, with bottom team (or two teams) going down from top league and top one/two going up from bottom league.

 

European places for next season could be worked out im sure.

 

SKY/BT can do one for one year and just have to suck up to having only 2 OF games......it is 1 year only due to circumstsnces out of anyones control.

Edited March 14, 2020 by Gambo

[Class of 75]

20 minutes ago, Redhelen said:

I love the contradiction here!  Are you sure it's the same Chris Sutton! ?

Yes, hates Hearts. 

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

As an aside, if they void the English season, does Citeh's two season ban start from whenever the new season starts or the following one?

Edited March 14, 2020 by Geoff Kilpatrick

[Beast Boy]

Apart from his affiliation to Celtic, Chris Sutton neither hates nor loves any teams in our league and merely says whatever causes the most controversy, to further his TV career.

[Lfhearts]

Reading all those rules, can be interpreted that they can do what they want. Has to be Uefa led.

[Victorian]

I reckon clubs will need to make huge cuts to their squad budgets.    That's just the ones that don't run out of cash before they even get that chance to readjust,   which could happen.     We'll probably see large numbers of otherwise in-favour players being released if their current deals are up this summer and clubs relying on the younger players to a larger degree.

 

Clubs desperately need to plan.    What do they need to plan?    Certainty.     What gets in the way of certainty?    Delay and dispute.     They need to make fast decisions and avoid dispute.    Dispute causes more delay and uncertainty.    How do you avoid dispute?     You make sensible,  pragmatic,  practical,  logical decisions that satisfy the greatest number of stakeholders as you can.

 

And that's all there is to it.

[DETTY29]

17 minutes ago, Lfhearts said:

Reading all those rules, can be interpreted that they can do what they want. Has to be Uefa led.

Exactly.

 

The SPFL board can determine when the league finishes.

 

If it determines the league is now finished then all matches have been played.

 

The current board comprises of one rep each from

 

Hamilton

Motherwell

T'Rangers

Ayr United

Dunfermline

Brechin City

[SectionDJambo]

Sky should just have to suck it up not having 4 old firm games for a season. Who knows, with other teams not having to play them as often too, the league could be more competitive and interesting. 12 less points to directly play for against them.

Bigger obstacle is the likes of St Johnstone and Motherwell needing the extra game or 2 against them to finance their playing squad.

This is a once in a lifetime situation, hopefully, so a bold decision is required, without the shackles of a 3rd party trying to influence the outcome.

[132goals1958]

9 minutes ago, Victorian said:

I reckon clubs will need to make huge cuts to their squad budgets.    That's just the ones that don't run out of cash before they even get that chance to readjust,   which could happen.     We'll probably see large numbers of otherwise in-favour players being released if their current deals are up this summer and clubs relying on the younger players to a larger degree.

 

Clubs desperately need to plan.    What do they need to plan?    Certainty.     What gets in the way of certainty?    Delay and dispute.     They need to make fast decisions and avoid dispute.    Dispute causes more delay and uncertainty.    How do you avoid dispute?     You make sensible,  pragmatic,  practical,  logical decisions that satisfy the greatest number of stakeholders as you can.

 

And that's all there is to it.

 

I would have no objections if my monthly pledge was used as  temporary resilience funding. 

[Victorian]

9 minutes ago, 132goals1958 said:

 

I would have no objections if my monthly pledge was used as  temporary resilience funding. 

 

Indeed.  That's coming.    What a blessed facility to possess.    

[PTBCAL]

Going against the grain here. 
 

We’ve been bottom for 4 months or so. 
 

Personally we should take it on the chin if they relegate us based on current standings. Genuinely would not have a problem with this. 

[Victorian]

1 minute ago, PTBCAL said:

Going against the grain here. 
 

We’ve been bottom for 4 months or so. 
 

Personally we should take it on the chin if they relegate us based on current standings. Genuinely would not have a problem with this. 

 

Not if it can demonstrated to be contrary to the existing rules.    Don't want to be too nasty but you can get that shit to **** and back.    I'll take it if it can be shown to be fair and correct per the rules.

[Shanks]

IF the season is cancelled the only fair option is null and void.  We cant crown dundee united championship champions and invite them into a larger league because they are not champions.  Pretty simple. Same with celtic.

 

The whole season is just scrapped and we repeat this season.  

 

Who do we 'invite' into a 14 team league people seem to want?  It's a nonsense to say Dundee United should be promoted and Hearts not relegated, the logic makes zero sense. 

[Victorian]

4 minutes ago, PTBCAL said:

Going against the grain here. 
 

We’ve been bottom for 4 months or so. 
 

Personally we should take it on the chin if they relegate us based on current standings. Genuinely would not have a problem with this. 

 

As an addition because this has to be dealt with,    people are concerned that Mrs Budge will roll over on this matter.    In the event that you speak to Mrs Budge... don't.    Stay away.    Self isolate or something.    

[GinRummy]

7 minutes ago, Longshanks said:

IF the season is cancelled the only fair option is null and void.  We cant crown dundee united championship champions and invite them into a larger league because they are not champions.  Pretty simple. Same with celtic.

 

The whole season is just scrapped and we repeat this season.  

 

Who do we 'invite' into a 14 team league people seem to want?  It's a nonsense to say Dundee United should be promoted and Hearts not relegated, the logic makes zero sense. 

It’s not nonsense at all. If we decide to expand the league to appear fair to clubs who were likely to be promoted and as you say ‘invite’ them to join us I don’t see what is illogical about that. 12 teams is too little anyway. Just because they wouldn’t be crowned champions or promoted in the traditional sense doesn’t make it nonsense. 

[GorgieRules22]

19 minutes ago, PTBCAL said:

Going against the grain here. 
 

We’ve been bottom for 4 months or so. 
 

Personally we should take it on the chin if they relegate us based on current standings. Genuinely would not have a problem with this. 

So if we were top for four months and blew the title we would still deserve it because we had been top for a while ?

 

Ffs mate gee it a rest, there’s 8 games to be played and only 4 points in it.

[Bazzas right boot]

1 hour ago, JimmyCant said:

Excellent stuff. Couldn’t possibly be more clear and definite. Thanks 

 

 

Tbh, it's not clear. 

 

If the league is considered completed now, then we are ****ed. 

 

Ie, the powers at be conclude that  due to the pandemic, the league season is now complete. 

 

38 games isn't really mentioned. 

[PTBCAL]

7 minutes ago, GorgieRules22 said:

So if we were top for four months and blew the title we would still deserve it because we had been top for a while ?

 

Ffs mate gee it a rest, there’s 8 games to be played and only 4 points in it.

Give it a rest? I only posted my thoughts once.

 

I suppose we can let our league form save us then 

[Bazzas right boot]

1 hour ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

 

 

 

Great stuff, there was a bit sarcasm in my post. 

 

Folk are desperate and seemingly unwilling to even consider that ending as is is  possible. 

 

All I have said is it's not a cut and dry as Hearts fans want. 

 

As a Hearts fan I want the season null and void, but there are other options. 

Edited March 14, 2020 by Smith's right boot

[bigsuperslim1874]

2 hours ago, IveSeenTheLight said:

we’ve covered this 😆

What did I miss? I thought Dons were at the foot of the table at seasons end but kept their place by virtue of (Falkirk I think) not having a 10k seater stadium?

[DC_92]

24 minutes ago, Longshanks said:

IF the season is cancelled the only fair option is null and void.  We cant crown dundee united championship champions and invite them into a larger league because they are not champions.  Pretty simple. Same with celtic.

 

The whole season is just scrapped and we repeat this season.  

 

Who do we 'invite' into a 14 team league people seem to want?  It's a nonsense to say Dundee United should be promoted and Hearts not relegated, the logic makes zero sense. 

 

This is an unprecedented situation with no "simple" solutions. Relegating us or denying promotion to Dundee United will have big financial consequences for either and will invite legal challenges which could delay the new season and cause even more chaos. League reconstruction is potentially a pragmatic solution which avoids (or at least heavily mitigates) those scenarios.