They Can't Relegate Us (Legally)

[Jambo66]

The lunacy of ending the season now can be seen by looking at the bottom of the Championship. Partick Thistle are relegated and QoS are in the playoffs. Except that QoS are 2 points ahead having played a game more.

 

There are only 2 legitimate options here. If possible, the season is completed. If not, it is null and void. Anything else is fundamentally unfair.

[Shanks]

19 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

It’s not nonsense at all. If we decide to expand the league to appear fair to clubs who were likely to be promoted and as you say ‘invite’ them to join us I don’t see what is illogical about that. 12 teams is too little anyway. Just because they wouldn’t be crowned champions or promoted in the traditional sense doesn’t make it nonsense. 

 

You wanting Dundee United promoted and Hearts not relegated is a nonsense.  If you are inviting two teams into the top league what's it based on? 

[The_razors_edge]

10 minutes ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

 

Tbh, it's not clear. 

 

If the league is considered completed now, then we are ****ed. 

 

Ie, the powers at be conclude that  due to the pandemic, the league season is now complete. 

 

38 games isn't really mentioned. 

yes it does - I’ve highlighted it at the top of this photo. Says we should be playing 38 games and the highlighted bit at the bottom says following completion of ALL league matches (ergo 38 matches). 

[Montgomery Brewster]

2 hours ago, Class of 75 said:

Clown. He hates the Hearts 

An absolute slavering ersepeice 

 

easiest thing to do is declare champions for each league so they all have a bauble on the mantelpiece , and no relegation . As you were - teams at top get a reward of such, prize money paid out on places everyone finished and they avoid a law suit from teams at the bottom 

[gorgieroar]

A president was set by the sfa in 1914 that the league gets finnished or theres no winners or losers hearts can't be relegated but celtic have shown in 1914 they don't care how they win the league they'll take it anyway they can get it

[Shanks]

2 minutes ago, DC_92 said:

 

This is an unprecedented situation with no "simple" solutions. Relegating us or denying promotion to Dundee United will have big financial consequences for either and will invite legal challenges which could delay the new season and cause even more chaos. League reconstruction is potentially a pragmatic solution which avoids (or at least heavily mitigates) those scenarios.

 

So you think just plucking two teams into the top league will avoid legal challenges?

 

I just don't see the logic in - Dundee United are currently top so should be promoted.  Hearts are currently bottom so shouldn't be relegated.

[Bazzas right boot]

43 minutes ago, PTBCAL said:

Going against the grain here. 
 

We’ve been bottom for 4 months or so. 
 

Personally we should take it on the chin if they relegate us based on current standings. Genuinely would not have a problem with this. 

 

 

Fair enough. 

 

I would also not have a problem with a null and void season. 

 

Whatever happens, folk (likely based on the team they support) will have a view on it and argue both ways. 

 

 

If we'd been in Celtics position looking for our first title in 60 years, most if not all would be championing the opposite position of what they are saying now. 

 

Other than completing the season (which I think should still be looked at and part of next season sacrificed), whatever the decision some will be happy, some not so much. 

 

Every league in Europe should do the same tho imo. 

 

I believe Chile has ended the season, current leaders declared champions, no relegation.

Edited March 14, 2020 by Smith's right boot

[GinRummy]

Just now, Longshanks said:

 

You wanting Dundee United promoted and Hearts not relegated is a nonsense.  If you are inviting two teams into the top league what's it based on? 

These are a unique set of circumstances that deserve an unprecedented response.  Inviting two clubs to join next seasons top flight and possibly saving them from severe financial difficulties while having little effect on the teams left in The Championship isn’t a nonsense. League expansion is a good idea in any case and it’s an ideal time to do it. It’s almost like your saying the status quo must be preserved? Why? The status quo is not that great. 

[GinRummy]

3 minutes ago, Longshanks said:

 

So you think just plucking two teams into the top league will avoid legal challenges?

 

I just don't see the logic in - Dundee United are currently top so should be promoted.  Hearts are currently bottom so shouldn't be relegated.

Legal challenges or not. Help nobody because someone else might get upset? You seem obsessed with relegation, it’s league expansion that’s being talked about, the two can be easily separated. 

[Victorian]

The answers are staring you in the face.    You proceed on the basis of a two stage approach.     Primary stage is to apply the existing rules to ensure no relegation takes place.    Secondary stage is to apply emergency decisions to award titles (if necessary) and to promote teams to create a new structure.     You disadvantage the minimum number of stakeholders as is possible,   compensate others where possible.    Employ the rules as far as they suit the desired result + agree additional decisions.      

[Bazzas right boot]

16 minutes ago, The_razors_edge said:

yes it does - I’ve highlighted it at the top of this photo. Says we should be playing 38 games and the highlighted bit at the bottom says following completion of ALL league matches (ergo 38 matches). 

 

 

Fair enough. 

It could be seen that way 

 

But it does not say in the event of somthing like this, null and void is the answer. 

So we are back to square one. 

 

If the league games cannot be completed a solution must be in effect "made up". 

 

If the league is viewed as completed for this season as the remaining games legally cannot be fulfilled due to government imposed restrictions we are not clear as it does not say anywhere if the league season is not completed it shall be voided. 

 

It's unique, and a solution has to be made up now to accommodate it. 

 

Voiding is one solution, as is is another amongst other solutions. 

 

Somthing that is unlikely in any rules will have to be put in place so it is still open. 

 

Ofc, unless the games are completed and next season adjusted in advance before it starts. 

 

Quoting the rules is all good but nowhere in that is there a solution. 

 

A solution is still required. 

 

Edited March 14, 2020 by Smith's right boot

[Bazzas right boot]

4 minutes ago, Victorian said:

The answers are staring you in the face.    You proceed on the basis of a two stage approach.     Primary stage is to apply the existing rules to ensure no relegation takes place.    Secondary stage is to apply emergency decisions to award titles (if necessary) and to promote teams to create a new structure.     You disadvantage the minimum number of stakeholders as is possible,   compensate others where possible.    Employ the rules as far as they suit the desired result + agree additional decisions.      

 

Yip, can't disagree with that. 

 

Mitigate the damage. 

 

[Victorian]

1 minute ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

Yip, can't disagree with that. 

 

Mitigate the damage. 

 

 

Indeed.    

 

Rules exist.    You need rules for a variety of reasons.     But rules never need present challenges.    Instead they exist to enable solutions.     Use the rules for as far down the road they can drive you... then invent new rules.

[jambopilms]

When the decision is made some teams will be happy and some won't. As long as all leagues follow the same thinking, there can't be many complaints. 

[Shanks]

19 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

These are a unique set of circumstances that deserve an unprecedented response.  Inviting two clubs to join next seasons top flight and possibly saving them from severe financial difficulties while having little effect on the teams left in The Championship isn’t a nonsense. League expansion is a good idea in any case and it’s an ideal time to do it. It’s almost like your saying the status quo must be preserved? Why? The status quo is not that great. 

 

What two teams deserve promotion then?  Just curious what you are basing it on.

 

Also you are saying inviting two teams up and not relegating Hearts will have little financial effect on the teams left is not right, teams in the championship would love us there especially if we are deciding to pluck a couple of bigger clubs because we fancy it now. 

 

 

[RudiSkacelsLeftPeg]

Folk saying we should just accept relegation because we’ve been pish.....

 

What a terrible mindset and attitude. Loser mentality of the highest order.

 

We should do everything we can to stay in this league. Don’t think people understand how important it is for us to be in the premiership. 

[Shanks]

21 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

Legal challenges or not. Help nobody because someone else might get upset? You seem obsessed with relegation, it’s league expansion that’s being talked about, the two can be easily separated. 

 

My position is if the season cant be finished it should be scrapped.  Which it seems like that's what you think as well, just you also think we should add a couple extra teams because **** it.  Quite fancy Dundee united back in the top league plus one other random team as well.

[GinRummy]

1 minute ago, Longshanks said:

 

What two teams deserve promotion then?  Just curious what you are basing it on.

 

Also you are saying inviting two teams up and not relegating Hearts will have little financial effect on the teams left is not right, teams in the championship would love us there especially if we are deciding to pluck a couple of bigger clubs because we fancy it now. 

 

 

I never said that. I said promoting two sides would have little effect on the teams left. I never mentioned Hearts. You seem unable to separate league expansion from relegation. 

 

I’d invite  the teams currently first and second for no the reason then there is no other way of doing it. I fully understand that’s unfair. It’s just the least unfair way of doing it. Leaving them all down there is even more unfair. 

[Beast Boy]

21 minutes ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

 

Great stuff, there was a bit sarcasm in my post. 

 

Folk are desperate and seemingly unwilling to even consider that ending as is is a possible. 

 

All I have said is it's not a cut and dry as Hearts fans want. 

 

I aa a Hearts fan want the season null and void, but there are other options. 

That’s not what I was giving a cornette to. It was your bizarre logic. Absolutely desperate to play devil’s advocate as though you are the only one who is able to think objectively without maroon tinted specs, you just try and defend a piece of nonsensical waffle. Your logic about fixtures being complete because we wouldn’t play the last few fixtures was absolute... ahem... Tosh.

[GinRummy]

Just now, Longshanks said:

 

My position is if the season cant be finished it should be scrapped.  Which it seems like that's what you think as well, just you also think we should add a couple extra teams because **** it.  Quite fancy Dundee united back in the top league plus one other random team as well.

I’ve read your posts carefully and considered the points you’ve made. Only fair to do the same. I think inviting two clubs up could have a huge impact on those clubs finances and little impact on those left down. I also think league expansion is years overdue and  now is an absolutely ideal time to do it. 

[The_razors_edge]

19 minutes ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

 

Fair enough. 

It could be seen that way 

 

But it does not say in the event of somthing like this, null and void is the answer. 

So we are back to square one. 

 

If the league games cannot be completed a solution must be in effect "made up". 

 

If the league is viewed as completed for this season as the remaining games legally cannot be fulfilled due to government imposed restrictions we are not clear as it does not say anywhere if the league season is not completed it shall be voided. 

 

It's unique, and a solution has to be made up now to accommodate it. 

 

Voiding is one solution, as is is another amongst other solutions. 

 

Somthing that is unlikely in any rules will have to be put in place so it is still open. 

 

Ofc, unless the games are completed and next season adjusted in advance before it starts. 

 

Quoting the rules is all good but nowhere in that is there a solution. 

 

A solution is still required. 

 

A solution is required but as per their own rules and regulations any solution they come up with should not involve relegating  us and frankly that’s all I give a shit about. 

[Cade]

Two sets of people want the season to end and relegation/winners to be declared.

 

People who hate Hearts and Celtic fans.

 

Everybody else wants to complete the fixture list.

[H2]

On 13/03/2020 at 11:50, wavydavy said:

 

In reality why should other clubs or the authorities that govern our leagues try and bend rules to keep us in the top flights?

 

It appears there are no rules for this situation so they can't be bent.

 

On 13/03/2020 at 11:53, jb66 said:

Dundee United are more deserving to be in the league than us, they are smashing the championship. 

 

Only fair thing to do is increase the spl league 

An interesting point of view, What makes them more deserving. They have played their whole season playing inferior sides to SPFL teams.

 

21 hours ago, The_razors_edge said:

Spoke to a lawyer at my work who has looked at the legalities of this. His view is the rules state the season consists of 33 games, followed by a split of 5 games giving a 38 game season. If the 38 games are not completed, for whatever reason, then the season is basically null and void - no league winners, no promotion or relegation etc etc. 

I think this is 100% correct. If the League is stopped then all sides have failed meet the terms of their contracts.

It appears that there are no "Laws" in our game to cover this scenario. You can not part way through the contract change that contract without the agreement of ALL parties.

There could be an argument for precedence. I'm not aware of any similar precedence any where in UEFA.

The nearest thing I can come up with is the abandonment of a game, when that happens, it could be 7-0 with 5 minutes to play, the game is null and void and has to be replayed from the start.

IMO the options are: 

 - league suspended, continue after suspension then shorten next season (everybody knows the rules before they start); or

 - the season is null and void. (No winners, no promotion or relegation)

[Jambos4life]

German league will be extended next season so there will be no relegation 

[Shanks]

2 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

I’ve read your posts carefully and considered the points you’ve made. Only fair to do the same. I think inviting two clubs up could have a huge impact on those clubs finances and little impact on those left down. I also think league expansion is years overdue and  now is an absolutely ideal time to do it. 

 

I have read your points and I can see what you're saying,  I just don't see how we can reward and recognise the achievements of the teams 1st and 2nd in the championship whilst just ignoring absolutely everyone else in the leagues season.  That just doesn't make logical sense to me although I do understand it's a very unusual situation we are in.

 

For me ideally we complete the season, if not it gets scrapped and we start again.  We can then talk about league reconstruction when we complete a full season and it can be done fairly.

[One five]

As we know the league is played over 38 games , we still have 8 games to play 24 pts !!!who is to say it would be impossible for us to pick up let's say 15 pts or who is to say it's not possible for Hamilton and RC only to pick up 6 pts ! , ok maybe this is unlikely who knows! but it's not impossible! how anyone thinks we deserve to be relegated before these games are played is beyond belief imo.

[EIEIO]

1 hour ago, Victorian said:

I reckon clubs will need to make huge cuts to their squad budgets.    That's just the ones that don't run out of cash before they even get that chance to readjust,   which could happen.     We'll probably see large numbers of otherwise in-favour players being released if their current deals are up this summer and clubs relying on the younger players to a larger degree.

 

Clubs desperately need to plan.    What do they need to plan?    Certainty.     What gets in the way of certainty?    Delay and dispute.     They need to make fast decisions and avoid dispute.    Dispute causes more delay and uncertainty.    How do you avoid dispute?     You make sensible,  pragmatic,  practical,  logical decisions that satisfy the greatest number of stakeholders as you can.

 

And that's all there is to it.

Despite the riches in English football at the top 2 divisions many teams there are toiling most notably Macclesfield who have not been paying their players. I think there could be a few more Bury style liquidations. As for Scotland any team outside Old Firm, Hearts , Hibs and Aberdeen must be worried.

[Bazzas right boot]

1 minute ago, The_razors_edge said:

A solution is required but as per their own rules and regulations any solution they come up with should not involve relegating  us and frankly that’s all I give a shit about. 

 

 

Yeah, but the rules do not state, for example 

 

In the event of the 38 games not being completed... 

 

The season is null and void. 

The season will finish as standing 

 

Therefor, stating the rules is great, ofc the league should be 38 games. 

I think everyone knew that. 

 

However, the outcome of what happens in an event like this is still unknown, the rules do nothing to  clear it up and offer no  concrete solution. 

 

Therfore, right now all options will Likley be considered before a decision is made. 

 

Folk stating categorically we cannot be relegated have no basis for that. 

 

The rules just state it should be 38 games, there are no solutions to it finishing early. 

 

What Victorian says will Likley happen. 

 

[Bazzas right boot]

7 minutes ago, Jambos4life said:

German league will be extended next season so there will be no relegation 

 

 

Germans- bing, bang boom. 

 

Fixed. 

 

No ****ing about. 

 

 

[GinRummy]

8 minutes ago, Longshanks said:

 

I have read your points and I can see what you're saying,  I just don't see how we can reward and recognise the achievements of the teams 1st and 2nd in the championship whilst just ignoring absolutely everyone else in the leagues season.  That just doesn't make logical sense to me although I do understand it's a very unusual situation we are in.

 

For me ideally we complete the season, if not it gets scrapped and we start again.  We can then talk about league reconstruction when we complete a full season and it can be done fairly.

Yeah, ideal situation is the season gets completed, I definitely agree regardless of our precarious position. We need to start thinking a bit differently here and trying to help clubs. Two could be helped instantly by expanding the league, I’d be happy to invite 6 up but the tv companies and the old firm would no doubt object. With no cash there is little The league or association can do to help clubs so we need to think of some way to at least help some of them. No need to declare champions, no need to relegate clubs. If league not completed there is a need for league expansions and presumably the least unfair way of deciding European spots would be to award them based on current league position. 
 

I notice a poster above is saying the German league will be expanded without relegation next season. 

Edited March 14, 2020 by GinRummy

[b-reed]

what happens to the sfa payout to all clubs at the end of the season... if null and void then how do the decide who get what... as it stands celtic would get 3.5m and rangers around 3m.. hearts being 12th would get 1.2m. Hamilton 1.8 m.... Celtic and rangers would not agree to having a shared pot if null and void? having the league set to finish at 30 games then it might be possible to get an early payment of there's funds and that could be all that's needed to keep some clubs alive....

[DC_92]

43 minutes ago, Longshanks said:

 

So you think just plucking two teams into the top league will avoid legal challenges?

 

I just don't see the logic in - Dundee United are currently top so should be promoted.  Hearts are currently bottom so shouldn't be relegated.

 

Who's going to challenge it? If anyone does, their case would be weaker than Dundee United's anyway, hence the mitigation comment.

 

The logic would be to minimise the financial consequences and chances of legal action.

[Seymour M Hersh]

Whatever the GFA/SPFL end up doing I'm fairly certain they'll make a James Hunt of it. Think about it. When have they ever made the right decision for the game up here? 

[Jambos4life]

12 minutes ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

 

Germans- bing, bang boom. 

 

Fixed. 

 

No ****ing about. 

 

 

Yeah I know but it would be pulling us out the crap

[JyTees]

1 hour ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

 

Tbh, it's not clear. 

 

If the league is considered completed now, then we are ****ed. 

 

Ie, the powers at be conclude that  due to the pandemic, the league season is now complete. 

 

38 games isn't really mentioned. 

 

Is there no end to your slavering?

[Victorian]

Germans.    Already sorted out a mess before it even begins.

 

Scottish.     Probably being bullied by Peter Lawwell and / or hiding under the bed.

[Paolo]

1 hour ago, DC_92 said:

 

This is an unprecedented situation with no "simple" solutions. Relegating us or denying promotion to Dundee United will have big financial consequences for either and will invite legal challenges which could delay the new season and cause even more chaos. League reconstruction is potentially a pragmatic solution which avoids (or at least heavily mitigates) those scenarios.

I get where he is coming from, but you are right.  If the season is cancelled, and we relegate teams, or not promote them, there would be severe financial circumstance, and possible litigation, which could go on for a very long time. 
 

By relegating no one and promoting the promotion contenders, then you are erring in favour of as many clubs as possible.   You might also improve the league on the process.  
 

There is no perfect answer.  It is very much  damage limitation, and it would be wise to make a decision that has a detrimental affect to as few clubs as possible. 

[JimmyCant]

1 hour ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

 

Tbh, it's not clear. 

 

If the league is considered completed now, then we are ****ed. 

 

Ie, the powers at be conclude that  due to the pandemic, the league season is now complete. 

 

38 games isn't really mentioned. 

You need to read it through mate. 38 games is SPECIFICALLY mentioned as being the point where the winners are declared and relegation happens. It’s black and white clear as day. The season is not complete at 29/30 games. It’s incomplete.

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

If they relegated us very good. 

 

Will end the SPFL in the ensuing lawsuit 

 

[JimmyCant]

1 minute ago, Victorian said:

Germans.    Already sorted out a mess before it even begins.

 

Scottish.     Probably being bullied by Peter Lawwell and / or hiding under the bed.

Lawell and Lennon can stamp their feet and winge  and bully all they want. Celtic CANNOT be declared champions unless 38 games have been played, just as Hearts cannot be relegated. It’s clear as day and solid as a rock.

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

1 minute ago, JimmyCant said:

You need to read it through mate. 38 games is SPECIFICALLY mentioned as being the point where the winners are declared and relegation happens. It’s black and white clear as day. The season is not complete at 29/30 games. It’s incomplete.

This is why every League is looking at promotion without relegation. 

 

Rewards are straightforward to implement punishment without entire proof that outcome would have occurred results in financial hardship 

[Dazo]

21 minutes ago, Longshanks said:

 

I have read your points and I can see what you're saying,  I just don't see how we can reward and recognise the achievements of the teams 1st and 2nd in the championship whilst just ignoring absolutely everyone else in the leagues season.  That just doesn't make logical sense to me although I do understand it's a very unusual situation we are in.

 

For me ideally we complete the season, if not it gets scrapped and we start again.  We can then talk about league reconstruction when we complete a full season and it can be done fairly.

Agree completely especially regarding promoting 2 teams. This is in all likelihood a once in a lifetime circumstance and the only solution if the league can’t be completed is it for to be declared void and we go again next season. It will be good for some and harsh for others but nothing about these circumstances are fair. 

[Bazzas right boot]

1 minute ago, JimmyCant said:

You need to read it through mate. 38 games is SPECIFICALLY mentioned as being the point where the winners are declared and relegation happens. It’s black and white clear as day. The season is not complete at 29/30 games. It’s incomplete.

 

 

Yeah, but it does not say that if the 38 games are not completed the season is null and void. 

 

As above, we all know it should be 38 games, but the rules offer no concrete solution if the league is forced to end early. 

 

It does not say the positions as is should stand nor does say it should be voided. 

 

The rules state what should happen, but offer no indication or solution of what to do in this situation. 

 

 

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

1 minute ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

 

Yeah, but it does not say that if the 38 games are not completed the season is null and void. 

 

As above, we all know it should be 38 games, but the rules offer no concrete solution if the league is forced to end early. 

 

It does not say the positions as is should stand nor does say it should be voided. 

 

The rules state what should happen, but offer no indication or solution of what to do in this situation. 

 

 

Tosh. Relax

[Bazzas right boot]

2 minutes ago, JimmyCant said:

Lawell and Lennon can stamp their feet and winge  and bully all they want. Celtic CANNOT be declared champions unless 38 games have been played, just as Hearts cannot be relegated. It’s clear as day and solid as a rock.

 

 

It also does not say that in event of 38 games not being completed that the league is null and void. 

 

Shouting 38 games is all good, but this situation is unique. 

 

Therefor a unique solution will have to be " made up". 

 

 

[johnthomas]

2 hours ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

Apart from his affiliation to Celtic, Chris Sutton neither hates nor loves any teams in our league and merely says whatever causes the most controversy, to further his TV career.

Bang on . When it suits his agenda he could (very) occasionally be described as being pro Hearts

[Hector Riva]

Could we not just play this season out when/if we can'?

Cancel or rearrange a short next season If need be.

[GinRummy]

2 minutes ago, Dazo said:

Agree completely especially regarding promoting 2 teams. This is in all likelihood a once in a lifetime circumstance and the only solution if the league can’t be completed is it for to be declared void and we go again next season. It will be good for some and harsh for others but nothing about these circumstances are fair. 

Sorry. That’s partly right but there is no reason whatsoever that extra teams should not be invited from the championship to join our league. 

[JimmyCant]

Just now, Sir Gio said:

This is why every League is looking at promotion without relegation. 

 

Rewards are straightforward to implement punishment without entire proof that outcome would have occurred results in financial hardship 

I can see a moral case for promoting Dundee Utd but the other place in the. Championship  is very unclear and still 6-7 clubs in the mathematical mix. That would be a play off scenario. If you declare Dundee Utd on the grounds of strong likelihood then you also have to declare Celtic for the same reason. Fine by me as long us we don’t go down on the back of it, but I also think the SPFL prize money should be split 12 equal ways in that scenario.

[ramrod]

2 minutes ago, johnthomas said:

Bang on . When it suits his agenda he could (very) occasionally be described as being pro Hearts

He was very much pro Hearts during his commentary in the last Derby . 

Very complimentary and fair in his summary of events I thought .