They Can't Relegate Us (Legally)

[CJGJ]

It becomes clearer by the day that the break will not be a short one

 

Given that, next season will have to be a mini or shorted one playing each other only twice for example and it might have to be a larger league for one season or two.

 

Until there is any kind of certainty we can plan but not execute..who knows if it will be August or November or later

 

UEFA AND FIFA will want their pound of flesh as well so discussions re any European/World competitions will also be required

[milky_26]

Just now, IveSeenTheLight said:

 

So are you suggesting season ticket holders are re-imbursed by the clubs who then seek compensation from the SPFL? What about those that just bought tickets?

A lot of clubs could go to the wall in that scenario.

why bring up people who just buy matchday tickets, it is still the same argument. also you would not get a full refund as you have had a product. one thing also you have not had 30 home games this season so get your numbers right

[milky_26]

Just now, Zlatanable said:

The SPFL are the clubs though. 

[Beast Boy]

3 minutes ago, IveSeenTheLight said:

 

So are you suggesting season ticket holders are re-imbursed by the clubs who then seek compensation from the SPFL? What about those that just bought tickets?

A lot of clubs could go to the wall in that scenario.

Global pandemic, people dying, terror and uncertainty everywhere... leave it to a ****ing Aberdonian to want his money back for the football. 🙄

[RudiSkacelsLeftPeg]

2 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

Global pandemic, people dying, terror and uncertainty everywhere... leave it to a ****ing Aberdonian to want his money back for the football. 🙄

😂😂

[IveSeenTheLight]

4 minutes ago, CJGJ said:

It becomes clearer by the day that the break will not be a short one

 

Given that, next season will have to be a mini or shorted one playing each other only twice for example and it might have to be a larger league for one season or two.

 

Until there is any kind of certainty we can plan but not execute..who knows if it will be August or November or later

 

UEFA AND FIFA will want their pound of flesh as well so discussions re any European/World competitions will also be required

 

I agree, next season could be a shortened one, but could it be with 12 teams, play each other twice, no split and finished after 22 games?

Teams play an even number of home and away games and free's up 16 games to allow for a delayed start (to complete this season and allow for the virus delay)

 

I get the call for league reconstruction, but it is frought with so many factors that affect Scottish football

[IveSeenTheLight]

4 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

Global pandemic, people dying, terror and uncertainty everywhere... leave it to a ****ing Aberdonian to want his money back for the football. 🙄

 

Do you not see the irony?

Of course I am being a bit pedantic, but making a potential point if the season was null and voided.

If it is null and voided, it means that the games were just glorified friendlies and there's certainly no mitigation from it happening again.

 

Sure the rules need looked at, but I think that the season should only be null and voided if the season teams have not played each other home and away (22 games), beyond that, then there should be a way to declare the season completed if Force Majeure materialises

[merseyjambo]

22 minutes ago, IveSeenTheLight said:

 

I don't see it as a contradiction.

Yes, players leaving the club causes a disadvantage, as does players getting injured like Souttar, who incidentally, provides you guys with an advantage if he is able to recover for the final 8 games he otherwise would not be available for

You do raise an interesting point regarding the specialised position of goalkeeper for Celtic with Forster out of loan and gordon out of contract, but I maintain that the rules should only allow player registered with the club during the season or indeed signing out of contract players who are available outwith the signing windows.

So what if Celtic have to rely on Bain or a youth player.

 

There are three basic options: -

1) Null and Void

2) continue the season from the point of postponement

3) end the season as it stands

 

It's just an opinion, but to null and void a season where 80% of the games have taken place is ludicrous.

There's nothing to say this or a n other issue could happen again and then just null and void again, hence my personal view is to continue (for this time) where the season left off.

Going forward, I think there has to be written in that if this were to happen again, the league would be revert to the position when last everyone had played everyone i.e. 22 games, 33 games or 38 game.

Null and Void should only be an option when less than half the season has been played.

 

If you really want a quick, hasty decision, then end the season as it is, even if that means you're relegated.

It is a contradiction. Hamilton would lose their goalkeeper who has been excellent since he signed and St Mirren would lose Jakubiak who has also been a decent signing. I’ve tried looking to see how long Obika is signed for but can’t see anything. so for clubs like that to lose important players is not fair. 
 

As for Souttar he’s Allegedly out for 8 months so he’s not a concern. 
 

If it gets into May where and we are looking towards August/September there is only one suggestion and that is Null and Void it. We then need to looking what we can do to ensure teams in promotion places don’t lose out as they aren’t at fault either. You’ve also got people leaving clubs which has already been said on several occasions. 
 

The general indication from European leagues is null and void and increase the size of leagues for one season with promotion. 
 

Who knows though 

 

What I can guarantee will Happen is that teams like ourselves and Partick who are bottom of league will take legal action if they try to relegate us

[Bongo 1874]

30 minutes ago, IveSeenTheLight said:

 

 

Would the SPFL reimburse season tickets for a season they have declared null and void?

I wouldn't have bought a season ticket for 30 friendlies

How can you possibly ask for your money back, when the situation that has occurred, is completely out of the spfls control and your club. 

 

This is an act of God. 

[IveSeenTheLight]

13 minutes ago, milky_26 said:

why bring up people who just buy matchday tickets, it is still the same argument. also you would not get a full refund as you have had a product. one thing also you have not had 30 home games this season so get your numbers right

 

I can't buy an away season ticket, but I still attend.

[Beast Boy]

Just now, IveSeenTheLight said:

 

Do you not see the irony?

Of course I am being a bit pedantic, but making a potential point if the season was null and voided.

If it is null and voided, it means that the games were just glorified friendlies and there's certainly no mitigation from it happening again.

 

Sure the rules need looked at, but I think that the season should only be null and voided if the season teams have not played each other home and away (22 games), beyond that, then there should be a way to declare the season completed if Force Majeure materialises

Really? Fascinating... all I see is a tight-fisted citizen of Bedrock on Sea greeting about getting its money back, against the backdrop of a global pandemic that has already killed thousands of people.

 

 

[IveSeenTheLight]

1 minute ago, Bongo 1874 said:

How can you possibly ask for your money back, when the situation that has occurred, is completely out of the spfls control and your club. 

 

This is an act of God. 

 

I totally agree, that's the point I'm making. I was being pedantic and facetious to make a point.

Its force majeure.

 

Hence the argument of bringing legal proceedings if declaring the season complete as it stands would not stand up in court (in my opinion).

 

Who are the SPFL team demanding the season is cancelled.

I'd bet its SevCo.

[IveSeenTheLight]

Just now, Special Officer Doofy said:

Really? Fascinating... all I see is a tight-fisted citizen of Bedrock on Sea greeting about getting its money back, against the backdrop of a global pandemic that has already killed thousands of people.

 

 

 

Still not seeing the irony.....

[HardcoreJambo]

This is the perfect time to restructure the league. 18 teams. Play each other twice.

[IveSeenTheLight]

Just now, HardcoreJambo said:

This is the perfect time to restructure the league. 18 teams. Play each other twice.

 

I would agree, but so many clubs would be against it because of lost revenue.

It would also make a lot of games dull and boring because of mid table boredom.

 

You may point to the Premier league or throughout Europe having  large leagues, but really who cares about a Newcastle - Burnley, Osasuna - Levante or Ausberg - FC Union Berlin match.

 

I think a lot of the clubs would vote against an 18 team league, in fact, didn't they vote against it before?

[Poseidon]

13 minutes ago, IveSeenTheLight said:

 

I totally agree, that's the point I'm making. I was being pedantic and facetious to make a point.

Its force majeure.

 

Hence the argument of bringing legal proceedings if declaring the season complete as it stands would not stand up in court (in my opinion).

 

Who are the SPFL team demanding the season is cancelled.

I'd bet its SevCo.

Yeah, must be them IMO. Between us and them and the legal action swiftly following surely that'll give the SPFL time to see sense and void the whole thing

[jamboinglasgow]

Is there actually anyone who would ask for their season ticket money back from the clubs? 

[Mikey1874]

4 minutes ago, jamboinglasgow said:

Is there actually anyone who would ask for their season ticket money back from the clubs? 

 

No

 

I think clubs might offer something back when they can afford it.

[IveSeenTheLight]

1 minute ago, jamboinglasgow said:

Is there actually anyone who would ask for their season ticket money back from the clubs? 

 

Probably not, but then would people question getting a season ticket for future seasons?

If seasons can be null and voided, then you run the risk of paying for a season ticket for games that are not fulfilled.

In any other entertainment business, you would get refunds.

 

This is all relating to null and voiding the season, which I am strongly against.

I accept the pandemic and need to be cautious hence the force majeure postponement.

Hence why the season should be concluded when it can, else when decided to call, it stands as is.

Null and void is the worst scenario.

 

[Beast Boy]

6 minutes ago, jamboinglasgow said:

Is there actually anyone who would ask for their season ticket money back from the clubs? 

Only a few hoof-kicking sheep traders, I would imagine.

[IveSeenTheLight]

1 minute ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

Only a few hoof-kicking sheep traders, I would imagine.

 

Still not seeing the irony yet?

 

I give additionally to Aberdeen through the AberDNA scheme, so its not about the money for me, but was valuable to be facetious and pedantic to highlight the irony.

[Beast Boy]

2 minutes ago, IveSeenTheLight said:

 

Still not seeing the irony yet?

 

I give additionally to Aberdeen through the AberDNA scheme, so its not about the money for me, but was valuable to be facetious and pedantic to highlight the irony.

You didn’t highlight anything. You whined about refunds when the world is just hoping no relatives are killed by a global pandemic. This from a supporter of a club who are apparently about to spend £50m+ on a new stadium.

 

 

[IveSeenTheLight]

1 minute ago, Zlatanable said:

I can't see how unfinished competitions can be completed. I don't see how relegation/promotion can happen. 

 

Would you agree that there needs to be consideration in the rules to cover any potential future issues?

[IveSeenTheLight]

Just now, Special Officer Doofy said:

You didn’t highlight anything. You whined about refunds when the world is just hoping no relatives are killed by a global pandemic. This from a supporter of a club who are apparently about to spend £50m+ on a new stadium.

 

Because you still don't see the irony 

 

[Victorian]

If the predictions in the latest Guardian article come to be accurate then next season could already be profoundly compromised.      I doubt Scottish Football will survive in any form that resembles the current set up.    It would be up shit creek.     

[Mikey1874]

3 minutes ago, Zlatanable said:

I think the phrase 'null and void' and the associated stuff about season-ticket refund etc came from the Hamilton vice-chair Les Gray. 

 

I can't see how unfinished competitions can be completed. I don't see how relegation/promotion can happen. 

 

Agree 

 

With what they are saying about 4 month lockdowns etc just can't see scope for leagues to be completed. We could in Scotland if we changed season to March to November but can't see such radical change.

 

I think the threat of ongoing challenges by clubs relegated will force authorities to avoid relegation and do one off or permanent changes to leagues. Hearts issuing a threat is helpful. Getting the point across early. 

[Beast Boy]

1 minute ago, IveSeenTheLight said:

 

Because you still don't see the irony 

 

Broken record. Just admit you were more concerned with refunds than people’s lives. Then you can get back to using pelicans as toilets and mammoths as showers. 👍

[IveSeenTheLight]

Just now, Special Officer Doofy said:

Broken record. Just admit you were more concerned with refunds than people’s lives. Then you can get back to using pelicans as toilets and mammoths as showers. 👍

 

Ok, I accept, you just won't see it

[Beast Boy]

1 minute ago, IveSeenTheLight said:

 

Ok, I accept, you just won't see it

You do that, Angus. 👍

[IveSeenTheLight]

1 minute ago, Zlatanable said:

 

If you mean 'ought clubs and leagues come to an understanding about unavoidable premature leagues seasons', then yes. 

 

But here is a question to you, what's the difference between a Cup competition and a League competition? If you can write off cups, why not leagues?

 

For me, I wouldn't write off the Scottish cup.

There are three games to be played. This can be done over two weekends before the next season starts.

A bit like the charity shield in England, but semi-final one weekend and the final the next. Season starts the week after.

 

For me the league accumulates points over a number of games and records an account of how successful you are compared to other teams,

I think it would be extremely harsh for example for Liverpool not to be recognised as the best team in the league this season because of force majeure.

Force majeure in the SPFL means that the clubs are unable to fulfill the contracted 38 games played. Unless there is a solution to the outstanding games, I do believe that the season should be called as is.

So Celtic should be champions (stick an asterisk next to the title recognising that the season ended after 30 games) and that means that Hearts should be relegated.

A play off between Hamilton and ICT would need to happen, but again, this could be behind closed doors or just before the new season, scheduling could still be done with both divisions.

 

Of course, if an agreement could be made on expanding the league it could be considered, but like the talk of Hearts legally challenging being relegated, why could Dundee, Ayr, Dunfermline, Arbroath etc not challenge for non promotion or opportunity to qualify via the play-offs.

What about European qualification? All teams in the league can technically gain enough points to finish 3rd / 4th, so why wouldn't there be a claim from Livingston, Hibs, St Johnstone etc for getting into Europe?

 

Its a bad situation to try to resolve and I can't see where there will not be losers, therefore the only knowns at this point is the current league positions.

I don't believe in living my life in a what if scenario, therefore we cannot determine if league positions would change in the remaining 8 games. We only know the facts of current league placings unless the games can be concluded at some point

[Siphiwe Tshabalala]

Season off until September, and final standings will stand.

 

According to Gavin Wallace on Twitter.

[Zico]

35 minutes ago, Victorian said:

If the predictions in the latest Guardian article come to be accurate then next season could already be profoundly compromised.      I doubt Scottish Football will survive in any form that resembles the current set up.    It would be up shit creek.     

You got a link to that Vic?

[stan]

58 minutes ago, IveSeenTheLight said:

 

I would agree, but so many clubs would be against it because of lost revenue.

It would also make a lot of games dull and boring because of mid table boredom.

 

You may point to the Premier league or throughout Europe having  large leagues, but really who cares about a Newcastle - Burnley, Osasuna - Levante or Ausberg - FC Union Berlin match.

 

I think a lot of the clubs would vote against an 18 team league, in fact, didn't they vote against it before?

Mid table boredom is an enticing prospect at the moment...let's not knock it.

[Victorian]

3 minutes ago, Zico said:

You got a link to that Vic?

 

No but it's the prominent article on the Guardian site.

[King Of The Cat Cafe]

1 hour ago, IveSeenTheLight said:

 

 

Would the SPFL reimburse season tickets for a season they have declared null and void?

I wouldn't have bought a season ticket for 30 friendlies

 

I have an underlying medical condition:

I have close relatives in the most at-risk category:

Some have predicted this virus could still be around in a year's time:

Some have predicted that half a million people could die in the UK.

 

Reclaiming what I have paid for three or four unplayed games is not a priority in my mind.

 

 

 

 

[Glottis]

Null and void is utter shite.

That'll be Rangers and only us wanting that.

 

It might benefit us but it's not right.

[1971fozzy]

Our resident sheep is on fire the night 😂😂😂

folk dying in a global pandemic and the shite he’s spouting is something else

[Zico]

3 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

No but it's the prominent article on the Guardian site.

Lots of them but if it’s the David Conn one, I’ve read it. Covers the enormity of it all. 

[Defender]

Honestly it's the only sensible thing is to have current standings be final. Does it suck for Hearts? Absolutely. But if the season is voided, there's no league position payouts and that could destroy a bunch of clubs who need that just to keep going. 

 

If it's going to take until more or less September to get going then Hearts will need to play Championship football next season. And let's be honest, it's deserved. They can contest it but likely it'll come to a vote of the clubs who will probably vote that way.

[IveSeenTheLight]

3 minutes ago, King Of The Cat Cafe said:

 

I have an underlying medical condition:

I have close relatives in the most at-risk category:

Some have predicted this virus could still be around in a year's time:

Some have predicted that half a million people could die in the UK.

 

Reclaiming what I have paid for three or four unplayed games is not a priority in my mind.

 

 

 

 

 

I was just making a pedant and facetious point.

 

I too have an underlying medical condition, as does my son, so I really hope for all our sakes that we can get through this as best as we can.

You will see from earlier posts, I was actively trying to show why this isn't just like the flu as so many fobbed off.

 

I wish you all of the best King Of The Kat Cafe and hope we are all around a lot longer to debate all things football and support our clubs

[Anderson5]

2 minutes ago, 1971fozzy said:

Our resident sheep is on fire the night 😂😂😂

folk dying in a global pandemic and the shite he’s spouting is something else

In fairness, he’s doing it in a thread where many of us are using the global pandemic (in which folk are dying) to suggest various loopholes to avoid relegation. 
 

The moral high ground in this thread is below sea level and no one is exactly covering themselves in glory 😂

[King Of The Cat Cafe]

1 minute ago, IveSeenTheLight said:

 

I was just making a pedant and facetious point.

 

I too have an underlying medical condition, as does my son, so I really hope for all our sakes that we can get through this as best as we can.

You will see from earlier posts, I was actively trying to show why this isn't just like the flu as so many fobbed off.

 

I wish you all of the best King Of The Kat Cafe and hope we are all around a lot longer to debate all things football and support our clubs

 

 

No worries, mate.  I wasn't singling you out, but hopefully putting in a bit of perspective.

 

 

[Steve_Jersey_HMFC]

Couldn’t care less about Celtic being awarded the trophy or not. 
 

the idea of relegating a team and the financial consequences of that because they are bottom at the point at which the music stopped. It would be grossly unfair and also arbitrary (i.e. if the postponement happened the day after Easter road literally like 8 days earlier we wouldn’t have been bottom at the time). At least with Celtic and Liverpool there’s very little chance of anyone catching them, all to play for in our case (and other teams in similar situations including the EPL where there is a much grander figure at stake) 

[IveSeenTheLight]

3 minutes ago, Anderson5 said:

In fairness, he’s doing it in a thread where many of us are using the global pandemic (in which folk are dying) to suggest various loopholes to avoid relegation. 
 

The moral high ground in this thread is below sea level and no one is exactly covering themselves in glory 😂

 

Exactly, this is the irony I was speaking about and why I used quite an obvious and pedant point

[Fozzyonthefence]

23 minutes ago, IveSeenTheLight said:

 

For me, I wouldn't write off the Scottish cup.

There are three games to be played. This can be done over two weekends before the next season starts.

A bit like the charity shield in England, but semi-final one weekend and the final the next. Season starts the week after.

 

For me the league accumulates points over a number of games and records an account of how successful you are compared to other teams,

I think it would be extremely harsh for example for Liverpool not to be recognised as the best team in the league this season because of force majeure.

Force majeure in the SPFL means that the clubs are unable to fulfill the contracted 38 games played. Unless there is a solution to the outstanding games, I do believe that the season should be called as is.

So Celtic should be champions (stick an asterisk next to the title recognising that the season ended after 30 games) and that means that Hearts should be relegated.

A play off between Hamilton and ICT would need to happen, but again, this could be behind closed doors or just before the new season, scheduling could still be done with both divisions.

 

Of course, if an agreement could be made on expanding the league it could be considered, but like the talk of Hearts legally challenging being relegated, why could Dundee, Ayr, Dunfermline, Arbroath etc not challenge for non promotion or opportunity to qualify via the play-offs.

What about European qualification? All teams in the league can technically gain enough points to finish 3rd / 4th, so why wouldn't there be a claim from Livingston, Hibs, St Johnstone etc for getting into Europe?

 

Its a bad situation to try to resolve and I can't see where there will not be losers, therefore the only knowns at this point is the current league positions.

I don't believe in living my life in a what if scenario, therefore we cannot determine if league positions would change in the remaining 8 games. We only know the facts of current league placings unless the games can be concluded at some point

And what about Partick?  Aston Villa? Do they get relegated as things stand?  That would be a nonsense.

 

And your argument about ST refunds if season declared null and void - surely you could argue the same if the season ends after 30 games and titles,  promotion, relegation are handed out.  You’ve still watched the same product either way.  Would you ask for a refund if Aberdeen only had 18 home games and 20 away games this season?

[IveSeenTheLight]

As an aside point.

The governments are looking to extend the pandemic. Seriously they are.

This is to try and reduce and delay the peak so that the NHS can cope at the peak

 

There are plenty of graphs to show this

 

 

What this means is that if they are successful in delaying the virus spread, this is not going to be done in the next 2-3 months

[Beast Boy]

Aye, totally. 

[Stendelsarmy]

2 hours ago, IveSeenTheLight said:

 

 

Would the SPFL reimburse season tickets for a season they have declared null and void?

I wouldn't have bought a season ticket for 30 friendlies

 

No you've attended the matches, got whatever enjoyment you get out of watching Aberdeen. Why would you get your money back?

[Byyy The Light]

23 minutes ago, Zlatanable said:

Reading your post, I had a thought. 

How would we decide the play-off winner?

(you would have to take the teams 2-3-4 in the Scottish Championship right now, then decide a winner from them, then decide who would win a 2 legged game with the team in 11th in the Premiership)

 

Exactly the point I was going to make. Don’t expect them to approach this with any sort of neutral logic though. Whatever Peter Lawell wants will happen.

 

I’m meh about the whole thing. Hearts will bounce back regardless. My family, friends and livelihood are much more important at the moment. 

[Beast Boy]

14 minutes ago, Stendelsarmy said:

 

No you've attended the matches, got whatever enjoyment you get out of watching Aberdeen. Why would you get your money back?

No, no, no... apparently he was actually just making an obvious facetious and pedant point. 🙄