They Can't Relegate Us (Legally)

[jbee647]

9 minutes ago, Bongo 1874 said:

OHH HELL YEAH!!!! AND THAT'S THE BOTTOM LINE!!!. 

 

10 minutes ago, Bongo 1874 said:

OHH HELL YEAH!!!! AND THAT'S THE BOTTOM LINE!!!. 

 

What a racket.... people don’t actually listen to that do they.. ?

[Bozi]

1 minute ago, IveSeenTheLight said:

 

I think that is an option for clubs.

If the season is restarted, they should have to play with the squad registered at the time.

If that means teams have to rely more on their youth set up then so be it.

It still benefits the larger clubs, but that has to be an acceptable position.

If you allow another transfer window it encroached on the integrity of the season further and only further supports the larger clubs.

 

Any new players signed should only be eligible for the next season

Aye my point is that for some clubs, they wont have the finances to finish the extended season with the squads that they budgeted until the end of May. A season extension will cost more money for clubs with very thin margins 

[Unknown user]

1 minute ago, Gashauskis9 said:

I’m not overly concerned about the contract situation.  If this impacts all the main leagues in the world then everyone’s in the same boat.  

 

Tbh I think it's all moot. Scottish football's pretty precarious at the best of times, I'm betting multiple clubs are going under from this. 

And that means the leagues will need reorganised, and it'll likely be fudged.

 

One way or another I think it's unlikely we'll be second tier next season.

 

[Unknown user]

29 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Too right, and the spfl have already done us the courtesy of pointing out they're potless and can't afford to fight this stuff.

 

I think we'll see a compromise of prize money being paid out on current standings but no relegation across the divisions. 

Edited March 15, 2020 by Smithee

[Victorian]

2 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

Tbh I think it's all moot. Scottish football's pretty precarious at the best of times, I'm betting multiple clubs are going under from this. 

And that means the leagues will need reorganised, and it'll likely be fudged.

 

One way or another I think it's unlikely we'll be second tier next season.

 

 

Yep.   It could end up a genuine existential problem to solve.    

[IveSeenTheLight]

7 minutes ago, Bozi said:

Aye my point is that for some clubs, they wont have the finances to finish the extended season with the squads that they budgeted until the end of May. A season extension will cost more money for clubs with very thin margins 

 

The games are suspended for as long as it takes.

This will put some clubs under pressure for sure.

If they have the opportunity to extend contracts then they will. If they don;t then they'll need to play their youths.

It may be tough, but some tough decisions will need to be made to try and get the game going again and with as much integrity as possible.

[Scnorthedinburgh]

I think the fact that all the teams have played a different amount of games will save us.

Can't call it a result with a couple of teams playing less games.

Void is the only option.

Call a result and not just hearts but most clubs would go legal. If your 6th now 8 games could mean you finish 4th and that's more prize money.

[East Lothian Jambo]

Hopefully we see greater fight in legal terms, if necessary, than what we've shown on the pitch.  

[Unknown user]

Just now, East Lothian Jambo said:

Hopefully we see greater fight in legal terms, if necessary, than what we've shown on the pitch.  

I heard we're sending in Levein

[jr ewing]

Closed doors games are their only option. Reduced number of games next season. 

[Stuart McNeill]

13 minutes ago, Gashauskis9 said:

I’m not overly concerned about the contract situation.  If this impacts all the main leagues in the world then everyone’s in the same boat.  

 

 

Surely if every league in Europe is suffering from this situation, it's a matter of just resetting this year for everyone.

[kingantti1874]

Do the players have relegation clauses in contracts? 

[andi17]

20 hours ago, Boris5115 said:

Petrie/ Lawwell and the rest  of the mafia will take great delight in sticking the dagger into us. Interesting times ahead in would imagine. 

No sure aboot the tache two full ends with us or two games with five hundred Dundee Utd fans

[Levein's N]

I was attracted to this thread by the title, which promised to explain why we cannot be relegated “legally” -  there then follows a discussion of “equity” and “fairness”, etc.  Tbh am a bit disappointed by the total absence of any discussion of the rules, cases, jurisdiction, institutions, or indeed anything that might be recognised by a lawyer as being legally relevant

[Captain Canada]

How are clubs with no money supposed to extend contracts by a month or two? Many will be lucky if they can pay their players in the next few weeks with no cash coming in. 

 

It's already been announced there's no SPFL money to provide support.

Edited March 15, 2020 by Captain Canada

[Guest ToqueJambo]

17 minutes ago, Levein's N said:

I was attracted to this thread by the title, which promised to explain why we cannot be relegated “legally” -  there then follows a discussion of “equity” and “fairness”, etc.  Tbh am a bit disappointed by the total absence of any discussion of the rules, cases, jurisdiction, institutions, or indeed anything that might be recognised by a lawyer as being legally relevant

I think it has been posted that there are no rules in place to cover this situation, so Hearts haven’t agreed to the league just stopping after 30 games, so there could be a legal challenge.

[Unknown user]

Just now, weehammy said:

Suspect their holidays, like mine, are already up the spout.

Good point, I kind of forgot that!

[alwaysthereinspirit]

If league champions are crowned and relegation happens without all scheduled games being played. Can Celtic also claim to be the Scottish cup winners as the highest placed team left in the tournament?

[milky_26]

3 minutes ago, alwaysthereinspirit said:

If league champions are crowned and relegation happens without all scheduled games being played. Can Celtic also claim to be the Scottish cup winners as the highest placed team left in the tournament?

i wouldn't put it past them, absolutely no shame that smelly bunch have

[IveSeenTheLight]

12 minutes ago, alwaysthereinspirit said:

If league champions are crowned and relegation happens without all scheduled games being played. Can Celtic also claim to be the Scottish cup winners as the highest placed team left in the tournament?

 

No, with a lack of result, its awarded alphabetically

[jamboinglasgow]

Saw someone making a point on twitter that a legal challenge, even if it may or not win, may force the SPFL's hand as it could cause a delay for next season. I still think an expanded league may be the best option for the SPFL to get out of this mess.

[merseyjambo]

1 hour ago, IveSeenTheLight said:

 

I think that is an option for clubs.

If the season is restarted, they should have to play with the squad registered at the time.

If that means teams have to rely more on their youth set up then so be it.

It still benefits the larger clubs, but that has to be an acceptable position.

If you allow another transfer window it encroached on the integrity of the season further and only further supports the larger clubs.

 

Any new players signed should only be eligible for the next season

Sorry but how can do you hold a player who is out of contract for however long is required. Is it fair that if this goes until October that players for example like Scott McKenna who is out for the season, could play in the remaining fixtures. How is someone like Ollie Bozanic going to feel about signing on month to month because his contract is up in June, getting offers of contracts from leagues that are unaffected and having to turn them down because he has to fulfil the rest of the season with Hearts and in those last 8 games picks up a career ending injury. A 3 year contract elsewhere would have given him financial security but instead he’s on the scrap heap. 
 

Sorry, it doesn’t work. You can’t hold players to ransom and tell them they have to fulfil obligations.

 

You need certainty. The certainty of income from season ticket sales for the following season to pay salaries. The distribution of league money to help with salaries. There are clubs who will struggle to pay the bills over summer without this if the shutdown goes until late summer/early autumn. They are already talking about cancelling things like Tour de France, Wimbledon and other non football sporting events in summer. This is going nowhere fast but the decision needs to be made quickly about what is going to happen and what they are going to do going forward.
 

 

 

[IveSeenTheLight]

3 minutes ago, merseyjambo said:

Sorry but how can do you hold a player who is out of contract for however long is required. Is it fair that if this goes until October that players for example like Scott McKenna who is out for the season, could play in the remaining fixtures. How is someone like Ollie Bozanic going to feel about signing on month to month because his contract is up in June, getting offers of contracts from leagues that are unaffected and having to turn them down because he has to fulfil the rest of the season with Hearts and in those last 8 games picks up a career ending injury. A 3 year contract elsewhere would have given him financial security but instead he’s on the scrap heap. 
 

Sorry, it doesn’t work. You can’t hold players to ransom and tell them they have to fulfil obligations.

 

You need certainty. The certainty of income from season ticket sales for the following season to pay salaries. The distribution of league money to help with salaries. There are clubs who will struggle to pay the bills over summer without this if the shutdown goes until late summer/early autumn. They are already talking about cancelling things like Tour de France, Wimbledon and other non football sporting events in summer. This is going nowhere fast but the decision needs to be made quickly about what is going to happen and what they are going to do going forward.
 

 

 

 

Agreed, you cannot hold players who are out of contract.

Short term extensions (6 months) may be option for those it suits (will there be a plethora of offers from non affected countries?) and offer an opportunity to get a contract till the next transfer window.

If a player opts to leave, then so be it and as I said earlier, the squad may need to rely more on their youth players.

[IveSeenTheLight]

9 minutes ago, jamboinglasgow said:

Saw someone making a point on twitter that a legal challenge, even if it may or not win, may force the SPFL's hand as it could cause a delay for next season. I still think an expanded league may be the best option for the SPFL to get out of this mess.

 

I'm not sure why it would cause a delay.

When DeidCo were booted out, Dundee had to adapt to quick promotion and limited time to resource accordingly.

 

I'm still thinking that concluding the league, whenever football is back available, is better and then adjust the next season to suit the available timeframe.

[jamboinglasgow]

2 minutes ago, IveSeenTheLight said:

 

Agreed, you cannot hold players who are out of contract.

Short term extensions (6 months) may be option for those it suits (will there be a plethora of offers from non affected countries?) and offer an opportunity to get a contract till the next transfer window.

If a player opts to leave, then so be it and as I said earlier, the squad may need to rely more on their youth players.

 

especially if the player has already agreed a pre-contract with another club for more money

[milky_26]

2 minutes ago, IveSeenTheLight said:

 

I'm not sure why it would cause a delay.

When DeidCo were booted out, Dundee had to adapt to quick promotion and limited time to resource accordingly.

 

I'm still thinking that concluding the league, whenever football is back available, is better and then adjust the next season to suit the available timeframe.

the delay would be because the teams in each league would not be confirmed. that would prevent things like fixtures list and if the case dragged on past when the season was supposed to start they could not start the league 

[NaturalOrder74]

To be honest I hope sevco have equally as much fight with Celtic trying to claim champions of an unfinished completion

 

honestly can’t think of anything more Celtic than that then they’ll sing about their tainted ten in a row for years to come whenever they come up against even half decent opposition in Europe they embarrass themselves every year 

[merseyjambo]

10 minutes ago, IveSeenTheLight said:

 

Agreed, you cannot hold players who are out of contract.

Short term extensions (6 months) may be option for those it suits (will there be a plethora of offers from non affected countries?) and offer an opportunity to get a contract till the next transfer window.

If a player opts to leave, then so be it and as I said earlier, the squad may need to rely more on their youth players.

So you’ve contradicted yourself. Players leaving the club, puts that club at a disadvantage yet they cannot sign players as it may put them at an advantage. Utter horse dung. 
 

That is going to be the major problem. Players have signed pre contracts and may have something in the pipeline already for once their contract expires. Freedom of employment law means you cannot keep hold of them, yet you think it’s ok for that club to be disadvantaged. You’ve also got players on loan. What happens if the parent club won’t allow them to come back after loan period is over. It would be their right. Highest profile loan is Fraser Forster which is up in June but you then have the added complication for them that Craig Gordon is out of contract in June. How do you deal with that situation (other than laugh).

 

Sorry restarting season if this goes on over summer is not realistic as you cannot disadvantage teams when players leave or return to their patent clubs. 

 

Its why they need to make decision quickly. To get rid of the uncertainty.

 

 

[Gordon7co]

If the do relegate without the games being played could the players who have relegation causes in contracts them sue SPFL for loss of earnings as not actually relegated as games not finished.

[Anderson5]

Surely moving to a 14 team Premiership next season creates a much bigger argument. All 10 teams in the Championship will say they can technically still finish in the top 2 with 24 points still to play for??

[Bazzas right boot]

24 minutes ago, Anderson5 said:

Surely moving to a 14 team Premiership next season creates a much bigger argument. All 10 teams in the Championship will say they can technically still finish in the top 2 with 24 points still to play for??

 

 

About mitigating the damage tho. 

 

Not promoting someone who may have been promoted is far less of an issue of relegating a team that might have or not have went down. 

 

[gashauskis9]

Here’s where the challenge may lie imo.  Teams will be expecting payouts for league positions at the end of May.  Some will need that money to keep the lights on.  If the season is extended, these teams will go under or struggle massively.  Teams will get that money as planned if the season ends early.  Can you imagine the vote, asking the other 11 teams to potentially delay the payment to appease us going through a legal appeal against relegation?  Do we think the other teams will show us any leniency if by doing so it will cause them financial pressure?

 

Reconstruction is the only way this can be fixed with minimal damage. 

[jock _turd]

 What has to be recognised here is that this situation may not peak until June or July are the power that be going to suddenly let football recommence and risk the whole effort? If and it is a huge if football could be restarted in June would there be enough time to complete the remaining games and get ready for a new season in say late august ? One other factor to take into account is that with regard to European competition all the countries within the Uefa setup will be emerging from the situation created by this virus at very different points in time. There are no easy answers to the problem it has to runit course and only then will we know where we are. There is not use in making short term decisions if they are not going to be applicable in the long term. 

[Baxfee]

Shows how thick footie fans are. Everyone seems to want us relegated but no thought has been given to how much it will cost them. Jambos always take a big support - biggest out with old firm. It really will hit other teams financially 

Edited March 15, 2020 by Baxfee
Typo

[stuart500]

4 hours ago, The White Cockade said:

Yes desperate for us not to go down but 

illegal?

doubt there is anything in the law about football relegation 

and to be honest if thousands die then there are far more important worries than football 

if we do play the remaining fixtures fire anybody actually believe we would stay up?

Any litigation would be a civil case rather than a criminal one. 

 

We would be suing in terms of our financial loss brought about by a decision made (by SPFL) we believe to be unfair and contrary to the rules of the competition. We would have to prove that in court and claim damages. 

 

I think our hope would be SPFL would prefer not to have legal cases holding up the start of next season and the financial impact of that.

 

That's only my view. I'm not an expert. 

[Mr Elwood P]

4 hours ago, Smithee said:

Which is fine in theory, but as soon as a couple of them don't fancy it, or their parent club doesn't for loanees, it's a complicated picture. Avdijaj, Langer and Joel could all leave and who knows what difference they could have made. 

Then you've got all the holidays that players have booked, who's paying to cancel them?

It's too ugly, I can't see it.

You think holidays will still be happening? 

[ramrod]

3 hours ago, IveSeenTheLight said:

 

The games are suspended for as long as it takes.

This will put some clubs under pressure for sure.

If they have the opportunity to extend contracts then they will. If they don;t then they'll need to play their youths.

It may be tough, but some tough decisions will need to be made to try and get the game going again and with as much integrity as possible.

If football can't be restated by mid May at the latest then this season will end . 

Absolutely no way they will carry this season beyond next seasons start date apart from perhaps the Scottish Cup . 

I think they may go down the closed door route to finish this season if that's possible although it seems unlikely as it stands . 

Looking like this season is done and dusted tbh . 

[CJGJ]

Scottish football is facing a call to declare the current campaign null and void due to the coronavirus outbreak.

According to the Press Association at least one Scottish Premiership club is ready to demand SPFL chief executive Neil Doncaster cancels the season if it cannot be completed, after all football in Scotland was postponed on Friday "until further notice".

A source told PA: "We don't see how titles, promotion or relegation can be agreed on any basis of sporting fairness."

They added: "Perhaps prize money can be split on the basis of the current table.

"But the league should be ruled void and we start next season as we commenced this one.

"Making the season void is the best of a bunch of bad choices."

[Stendelsarmy]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/51901725

[IveSeenTheLight]

2 hours ago, merseyjambo said:

So you’ve contradicted yourself. Players leaving the club, puts that club at a disadvantage yet they cannot sign players as it may put them at an advantage. Utter horse dung. 
 

That is going to be the major problem. Players have signed pre contracts and may have something in the pipeline already for once their contract expires. Freedom of employment law means you cannot keep hold of them, yet you think it’s ok for that club to be disadvantaged. You’ve also got players on loan. What happens if the parent club won’t allow them to come back after loan period is over. It would be their right. Highest profile loan is Fraser Forster which is up in June but you then have the added complication for them that Craig Gordon is out of contract in June. How do you deal with that situation (other than laugh).

 

Sorry restarting season if this goes on over summer is not realistic as you cannot disadvantage teams when players leave or return to their patent clubs. 

 

Its why they need to make decision quickly. To get rid of the uncertainty.

 

 

 

I don't see it as a contradiction.

Yes, players leaving the club causes a disadvantage, as does players getting injured like Souttar, who incidentally, provides you guys with an advantage if he is able to recover for the final 8 games he otherwise would not be available for

You do raise an interesting point regarding the specialised position of goalkeeper for Celtic with Forster out of loan and gordon out of contract, but I maintain that the rules should only allow player registered with the club during the season or indeed signing out of contract players who are available outwith the signing windows.

So what if Celtic have to rely on Bain or a youth player.

 

There are three basic options: -

1) Null and Void

2) continue the season from the point of postponement

3) end the season as it stands

 

It's just an opinion, but to null and void a season where 80% of the games have taken place is ludicrous.

There's nothing to say this or a n other issue could happen again and then just null and void again, hence my personal view is to continue (for this time) where the season left off.

Going forward, I think there has to be written in that if this were to happen again, the league would be revert to the position when last everyone had played everyone i.e. 22 games, 33 games or 38 game.

Null and Void should only be an option when less than half the season has been played.

 

If you really want a quick, hasty decision, then end the season as it is, even if that means you're relegated.

[IveSeenTheLight]

21 minutes ago, CJGJ said:

Scottish football is facing a call to declare the current campaign null and void due to the coronavirus outbreak.

According to the Press Association at least one Scottish Premiership club is ready to demand SPFL chief executive Neil Doncaster cancels the season if it cannot be completed, after all football in Scotland was postponed on Friday "until further notice".

A source told PA: "We don't see how titles, promotion or relegation can be agreed on any basis of sporting fairness."

They added: "Perhaps prize money can be split on the basis of the current table.

"But the league should be ruled void and we start next season as we commenced this one.

"Making the season void is the best of a bunch of bad choices."

 

20 minutes ago, Stendelsarmy said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/51901725

 

Would the SPFL reimburse season tickets for a season they have declared null and void?

I wouldn't have bought a season ticket for 30 friendlies

[CJGJ]

Just now, IveSeenTheLight said:

 

 

Would the SPFL reimburse season tickets for a season they have declared null and void?

I wouldn't have bought a season ticket for 30 friendlies

Well you did it when you should have been relegated in 2000 but were not...or did you forget that

[Beast Boy]

5 minutes ago, IveSeenTheLight said:

 

 

Would the SPFL reimburse season tickets for a season they have declared null and void?

I wouldn't have bought a season ticket for 30 friendlies

Ask your owners, they appear to have a spare £50m+ lying around for stadiums and training grounds. 

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

The only way out of this cluster**** is null and void. 

 

If associations want to reconstruct to compensate some that is their right,  but it will only ever happen where it does not economically hinder a club. 

 

I doubt any lawyer would take the risk allowing an association to leave themselves wide open to lawsuit. 

 

Teams currently in advantageous positions will have to wear it, they can't prove they had won anything. 

 

Proof is the word,  beyond reasonable doubt. 

 

Its not restarting. Not with 70 year olds being asked to quarantine for 4 months and Wayne Rooney telling it like it is with the PFA in agreement. 

 

Contract situation beyond 30 June will make things impossible to continue. 

 

A plan will have to be made to restart from September. 

 

None of the above even takes into account a club being shut back down even if there was to be a resumption. 

 

Its wholly impractical to continue simply because its riddled with doubt 

[IveSeenTheLight]

10 minutes ago, Zlatanable said:

Would you do that? Ask Aberdeen FC for your money back

 

Why would I have to ask Aberdeen if it is an SPFL decision?

 

10 minutes ago, CJGJ said:

Well you did it when you should have been relegated in 2000 but were not...or did you forget that

 

Despite this being clarified time and again, some people are just ignorant

[Mikey1874]

33 minutes ago, Stendelsarmy said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/51901725

 

I can imagine Scott Brown and Neil Lennon have pissed a lot of people in football off with their DEMANDS TO BE AWARDED the title.

 

(Its in capitals because Lennon raised his voice to say it) 

[IveSeenTheLight]

3 hours ago, milky_26 said:

the delay would be because the teams in each league would not be confirmed. that would prevent things like fixtures list and if the case dragged on past when the season was supposed to start they could not start the league 

 

Not true, there would be a period after declaration before the new season started.

Plenty of time to announce the schedule

[milky_26]

Just now, IveSeenTheLight said:

 

Why would I have to ask Aberdeen if it is an SPFL decision?

 

because they are the point of purchase, it is them as members of the spfl who would have failed to provide the league games.

[milky_26]

2 minutes ago, IveSeenTheLight said:

 

Not true, there would be a period after declaration before the new season started.

Plenty of time to announce the schedule

not if the court case is still ongoing, for example say the case was still ongoing in december. because if they started the season then the legal action found against the spfl they would need to either restart the league or pay huge amounts of compensation. 

Edited March 15, 2020 by milky_26

[IveSeenTheLight]

Just now, milky_26 said:

because they are the point of purchase, it is them as members of the spfl who would have failed to provide the league games.

 

So are you suggesting season ticket holders are re-imbursed by the clubs who then seek compensation from the SPFL? What about those that just bought tickets?

A lot of clubs could go to the wall in that scenario.