They Can't Relegate Us (Legally)

[jack D and coke]

At this moment I think there’s just no way of knowing how long this lasts so it’s all moot. 
I think uefa should also decide for everyone to save squabbling. 
Im fairly sure Celtic will already be getting paranoid this is all set up to stop them. Uefa need to take it out of the hands of our cowardly association. 

[jock _turd]

Just now, jack D and coke said:

At this moment I think there’s just no way of knowing how long this lasts so it’s all moot. 
I think uefa should also decide for everyone to save squabbling. 
Im fairly sure Celtic will already be getting paranoid this is all set up to stop them. Uefa need to take it out of the hands of our cowardly association. 

 

I again hear what you are saying  but EUFA and FIFA are only concerned with themselves. Scottish football has to look after it own interests the SPL clubs have to get together and look at the options on the table Eufa and FIFA are not interested in keeping Scottish football alive... far from it. In my view it is far too  simplistic to say everything stops here and start awarding  championships , promotion and relegating. I know this is probably irrelevant but who can honestly see Rangers voting for anything that is not in their own interests so any notion that Celtic are going to be handed the title is not on in my view... but that is the first thing that Celtic as a club have said should happen through their manager.

[jack D and coke]

24 minutes ago, jock _turd said:

 

I again hear what you are saying  but EUFA and FIFA are only concerned with themselves. Scottish football has to look after it own interests the SPL clubs have to get together and look at the options on the table Eufa and FIFA are not interested in keeping Scottish football alive... far from it. In my view it is far too  simplistic to say everything stops here and start awarding  championships , promotion and relegating. I know this is probably irrelevant but who can honestly see Rangers voting for anything that is not in their own interests so any notion that Celtic are going to be handed the title is not on in my view... but that is the first thing that Celtic as a club have said should happen through their manager.

Neil Lennon is a twisted bitter little rat. Compare his statement with Jurgen Klopp. 
Honestly I can’t put my feelings for that club into words sometimes. 

[HighTimes]

3 hours ago, Five to One said:

Sportsound trying to push the agenda of Hearts fans agreeing we should go down if games can’t be played. 90% of those I know don’t think so. 

 

Yeah, everyone needs to get on Facebook and Twitter (where these lazy ***** get 90% of their stories) and say that do we **** think we should get relegated.

[David McCaig]

2 hours ago, Dazo said:

I don’t get this idea of moving teams up with no relegation. It will imbalance the leagues all the way down. 

Old Division 1 and Division 2 in England always used to be 22 team divisions.

[R1874]

Why on earth are we worried about the 20-21 season?! Who cares at all. Get this season done.
 

Likely 20-21 is delayed but we would figure it out. Lets say finish this season around September. Break for the players. Start new season January 2021. Euros Sep-October 2021. 
 

Then the calendar fits a bit better with the 2022 World Cup. We can figure out how to change the calendar back later.  

[FarmerTweedy]

On 13/03/2020 at 10:30, JJ93 said:

Legally speaking, they cannot relegate us.

 

If we take a step back from being fans for a moment and realise that Hearts is a business and we have 24 points to play for and are only 6 points away from absolute safety and 4 points away from a play-off place, it would be totally inequitable to relegate a team under these circumstances and consequentially cause significant economic loss. It would be a law-suit waiting to happen.

 

If they end the league and relegate us there is no doubt in my mind that this would be seen as an unfair punishment on Hearts - regardless of current league form. It is highly unlikely that there are rules governing this predicament but they are not needed in this situation for Hearts, or whoever else, to prevail.

 

Whether the SFA take legal advice on this issue is another question.

No offence intended here, but you have absolutely no idea whether they can relegate us or not!  And neither do I, to be honest! 

 

The reality is, it depends entirely on the competition rules. If the rules include clauses which cover eventualities such as the league having to be cut short for any reason, and those rules say that the positions at the time of the league stopping become effective as if the league had completed normally, then we can be relegated perfectly legally!

 

I've got no idea what the competition rules say though, and clearly you don't either, as you've actually stated!

[hmfc_liam06]

1 hour ago, LarrysRightFoot said:

i don’t think it’s an easy as that with TV and sponsorship deals. I can’t see this season being played to a conclusion - which again has TV and sponsorship issues. 
 

As a global viral pandemic has been predicted for a long time I’d like to think FIFA and UEFA have some outline of what they will recommend (probably wishful thinking though as governments have known it was going to happen for long time but don’t seem to have robust plans in place).  
 

As for the way forward IMO this season is over. Celtic champions. No relegation. Top 4 from championship promoted. Move to 2 bigger leagues below the Premiership.

 

It is actually a great chance to look at league reconstruction. 

[jack D and coke]

9 minutes ago, R1874 said:

Why on earth are we worried about the 20-21 season?! Who cares at all. Get this season done.
 

Likely 20-21 is delayed but we would figure it out. Lets say finish this season around September. Break for the players. Start new season January 2021. Euros Sep-October 2021. 
 

Then the calendar fits a bit better with the 2022 World Cup. We can figure out how to change the calendar back later.  

What about players contracts though? Ones that might’ve ran out when then the actual season was meant to end versus when the season gets expanded to? How do you get round that? 

[maroonlegions]

On 13/03/2020 at 11:50, wavydavy said:

The thing to remember here is that with one or two exceptions we are all Hearts fans on here and are dreaming up means to try and justify us staying in the SPFL.

 

In reality why should other clubs or the authorities that govern our leagues try and bend rules to keep us in the top flights?

 

We are clutching at straws and making assumptioons about rules that might or might not exist to help us stay in the top flight.

 

We are not at the bottom of the league because of some major conspiracy it is simply because we have not been good enough under three different Coaches throughout the course of the season so far.

 

It is clear that the current squad under these three coaches have shown that they don't have the bottle in the crunch games. Ok the coaches tactics may be partially to blame here but ultimately the players have to take a fair proportion of the blame for our league position.

 

Yes teams at the bottom can make miraculous recoveries and survive but we have shown already that we can't beat the teams around us in the bottom six so that in itself is a marker to show if we deserve to go down and regretfully I hate to say it but we do deserve it.

 

If the league were to stop after this week-ends games then we have shown that we don't deserve to stay in this league when we have only taken 9 points from 14 games against the bottom six clubs. ( I read that we had only taken 9 from 13 games prior to the St MIrren game on Wed)

 

Does that really give us an argument to stay in this league?

 

I would love for something to happen that would keep in in the top league however we really don't deserve it if truth be known.

 

 

That belongs on Vermin.net. Sergy and Greenminger would be proud of that.. FTH.

[LarrysRightFoot]

Just now, hmfc_liam06 said:

 

It is actually a great chance to look at league reconstruction. 

Yep as per my thread. 
 

I think UEFA will give a framework all national governing bodies have to work within. I think there may even be a blanket decision to keep everyone consistent where possible. 
 

Or leagues/governing bodies will consult each other on what they will implement - sounds like the English and Scottish leagues are consulting each other.

[WorldChampions1902]

1 hour ago, Smithee said:

You can guarantee that any attempt to relegate us without a full season of fixtures would be met with litigation. The SPFL have already acknowledged that they don't have any money at all, so I doubt they'd have much desire to go down that route with the cost it would take to defend. I can't see them trying TBH.

I agree. And to strengthen the case for us remaining in the SPFL next season, without question we are the third best supported club away from home. That means valuable income for ALL the other clubs in the league next year that will be vital to their finances if they are to recover from the massive financial hit this season will inevitably bring. That leads me to believe that our football authorities will come up with a solution that ensures we remain in the top flight. Time will tell, but I am quietly confident.

[JackLadd]

Where is this big pressure on emergency services or is this the phoney war?

Edited March 14, 2020 by JackLadd

[Scnorthedinburgh]

8 hours ago, Mundaydog said:

Seems to be a lot of talk about finishing this season... what if it drags on and on, then 20/21 season becomes a non possibility...

i think decision has to be made quickly regarding the league being finished and who gets what and who goes where.
Then all the clubs can at least plan season ticket sales. For whatever league they end up in. Ticket sales might be enough to tide a few clubs over for a bit.

Me personally, i would call this season null & void.

If and when 20/21 season can go ahead, my thoughts are - Currently 42 teams in the leagues. No relegation from any division this season.

Make it a 16 team top league. 16 team 1st division, 2nd division made up to 16 with teams from lowland & Highland leagues.

Play each other twice. 
2 up / 2 down automatically at end of the season. 3rd top (1st, 2nd divs) play 3rd bottom of league above.

scrap the mini ‘league’ in the league cup and go to a 2 leg system. If when Premier clubs come into the draw. No matter the order the tie is drawn. If a premier club draw a lower league club the Premier club are away from home for 1st leg (potential bigger crowd for smaller club).

if 20/21 goes ahead, through Aug/ Sep/Oct have games on Friday evening, Sat lunchtime & 3pm. Sun lunchtime, Tuesday evening.

folk will potentially have went months without football. Sky & BT will be desperate. No F1, golf, tennis, cricket etc. Time to renegotiate the tv deal. 

 

Sky may fold. Billions out but nothing to show, are the club's going to hand back the cash? Who has sky for news or movies, this is Netflix Amazon nirvana.

[kimosavi]

On 13/03/2020 at 11:24, Last Laff said:

You think Budge would take it to court?  A decision decided in these circumstances?  Not a chance. 

No.danger anne would take relegation lying down 

 

No doubt she'd put out a statement asking fans to pay for legal fees

[tolcross lad]

4 hours ago, jambopilms said:

The Celtic Liverpool is the easiest thing to sort out. 

You can't relegate teams who had the chance of a play off or higher. You can't have the playoff because of the virus. Teams have played different amounts of games which can't be evened out. 

England are not about to relegate villa who are in the bottom 3 but with a game in hand. What ever happens in the top league has top be done all through the league's.

Is Celtics championship more important than Raith or Falkirk ?

 

As I have said a number of times "it aint over until the fat lady sings" in this case until a competition is completed and as per the rules.

There is much much more to Scottish football than Celtic FC.There is a pyramid of clubs SPL ,Championship,First,Second,Lowland Highland East of Scotland and others.All of the clubs are part the lifeblood of our game.There are promotion relegation issue in all of these leagues.

The case for making Celtic champions  seems strong but it does not comply with the rules or the principle that its never over til its over.There are too many other clubs involved to bypass the rules whether promotion or relegation.Where do you stop?

Lennon threw the first punch.Sutton the sycophant the second and so the agenda was set with Celtics agenda first.

The Scottish Professional Leagues  Association board comprises Doncaster as CEO, McLennan as Chair and reps from Motherwell, Hamilton,Rangers,,Dunfermline,Ayr and Brechin.

McLennan is the chairman of the Independent News Media of which Dermot Desmond (Celtics biggest shareholder) is a major shareholder.

The main SFA  Board who have a handle on the cups and control and development of the game - control referees discipline development etc have Maxwell as CEO, Petrie as president,the Alloa chairman Mulraney as vice chairman,Doncaster and 4 directors whom I have not heard of.In my limited experience Maxwell has little regard for sporting integrity

One way or another these are the people who will be making decisions -constrained by Uefa, governments  guidance and control 

Hearts need to be strong in this situation gathering support from those with similar interests and defending our interests to the extent of legal action

Hearts are in transition of power and ownership.FOH should be calling the shots and i hope they are taking a tough line.

 

 

 

[Borders Jambo]

18 minutes ago, kimosavi said:

No.danger anne would take relegation lying down 

 

No doubt she'd put out a statement asking fans to pay for legal fees

Something I'd happily put money towards.

[JJ93]

1 hour ago, FarmerTweedy said:

No offence intended here, but you have absolutely no idea whether they can relegate us or not!  And neither do I, to be honest! 

 

The reality is, it depends entirely on the competition rules. If the rules include clauses which cover eventualities such as the league having to be cut short for any reason, and those rules say that the positions at the time of the league stopping become effective as if the league had completed normally, then we can be relegated perfectly legally!

 

I've got no idea what the competition rules say though, and clearly you don't either, as you've actually stated!

None taken but as a litigation lawyer I know how this would be handled absent an agreement which in all likelihood we will not have signed. 

[o1djambo]

12 minutes ago, JJ93 said:

None taken but as a litigation lawyer I know how this would be handled absent an agreement which in all likelihood we will not have signed. 

Is it not the custom and practice when a race has to be stopped for whatever reason and cannot be completed within the agreed timescale or date then the race will restart again? The finishing positions of participants within the original race being disregarded. Every team going back to the start position regardless. Formula one and horse racing for example. This is the norm. 

[IveSeenTheLight]

8 hours ago, bigsuperslim1874 said:

What did I miss? I thought Dons were at the foot of the table at seasons end but kept their place by virtue of (Falkirk I think) not having a 10k seater stadium?

For the 2000/2001 season, there was to be a league reconstruction to increase to 12 teams, so in the 1999/2000 season, the construct was that the team that finished bottom (Aberdeen)would go into a three way round robin play-off, with the 2nd (Dunfermline) and third (Falkirk) placed team from the 2nd division.

The top two from the round robin to play in the top league.

 

As Falkirk did not have the facilities required at the time, the round robin play off did not happen and Dunfermline were promoted to the top tier, along with St Mirren as the division champions.

 

So it was not a foregone conclusion we would have been relegated that season and were only “saved” from having to play in the round robin play-off

 

[DETTY29]

10 minutes ago, o1djambo said:

Is it not the custom and practice when a race has to be stopped for whatever reason and cannot be completed within the agreed timescale or date then the race will restart again? The finishing positions of participants within the original race being disregarded. Every team going back to the start position regardless. Formula one and horse racing for example. This is the norm. 

That's individual races.

 

However, what would happen if 3 races to go and Lewis Hamilton was virtually world champ but catchable and this happened.

 

Id say there is a cut off point where if the season cant be finished before the next one starts, then the season is null and voided.

Edited March 14, 2020 by DETTY29

[GavK1012]

7 minutes ago, IveSeenTheLight said:

For the 2000/2001 season, there was to be a league reconstruction to increase to 12 teams, so in the 1999/2000 season, the construct was that the team that finished bottom (Aberdeen)would go into a three way round robin play-off, with the 2nd (Dunfermline) and third (Falkirk) placed team from the 2nd division.

The top two from the round robin to play in the top league.

 

As Falkirk did not have the facilities required at the time, the round robin play off did not happen and Dunfermline were promoted to the top tier, along with St Mirren as the division champions.

 

So it was not a foregone conclusion we would have been relegated that season and were only “saved” from having to play in the round robin play-off

 

 

You were most definitely SAVED....Mr Magoo can even speak to that one...

[Beast Boy]

1 hour ago, maroonlegions said:

That belongs on Vermin.net. Sergy and Greenminger would be proud of that.. FTH.

Agreed. 

[IveSeenTheLight]

6 minutes ago, GavK1012 said:

 

You were most definitely SAVED....Mr Magoo can even speak to that one...

Agreed, saved from having to play in a 3 way play off with 2 out of 3 to play in the top league.

[FarmerTweedy]

8 minutes ago, o1djambo said:

Is it not the custom and practice when a race has to be stopped for whatever reason and cannot be completed within the agreed timescale or date then the race will restart again? The finishing positions of participants within the original race being disregarded. Every team going back to the start position regardless. Formula one and horse racing for example. This is the norm. 

Actually, in F1, if a race is stopped, it's restarted with cars in the positions they were in when it was stopped.  If it can't be restarted and completed, the result is declared based on positions at the end of the penultimate completed lap. If less than 75% of the race distance has been completed, half points are awarded in the championships.

[StevenNaismith]

“Under no circumstances can the SPFL (season) be extended due to sporting integrity”

Celtic, May 2008.

[Guest ToqueJambo]

6 minutes ago, FarmerTweedy said:

Actually, in F1, if a race is stopped, it's restarted with cars in the positions they were in when it was stopped.  If it can't be restarted and completed, the result is declared based on positions at the end of the penultimate completed lap. If less than 75% of the race distance has been completed, half points are awarded in the championships.

 

It will be interesting to see how other sports and football leagues handle this as everyone with a league system has the same dilemma. I guarantee the SFA/SPFL will be terrified of being the outlier who does something crazy like awarding titles and relegating teams with 20% of the league left, but it probably won't stop them doing it anyhow.

[DETTY29]

9 minutes ago, StevenNaismith said:

“Under no circumstances can the SPFL (season) be extended due to sporting integrity”

Celtic, May 2008.

Couple of weeks snow and old Rangers wanting to play their full team in all 4 competitions with plenty rest v. a worldwide pandemic.

[FarmerTweedy]

42 minutes ago, JJ93 said:

None taken but as a litigation lawyer I know how this would be handled absent an agreement which in all likelihood we will not have signed.

That's the key thing, of course. We've clearly signed up to the competition rules, and if those rules cover this situation and say we go down, then looking on the bright side, we'll win a lot more games next season!  If the rules don't cover this situation, they won't just be able to decide to relegate us though!

[FarmerTweedy]

4 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

It will be interesting to see how other sports and football leagues handle this as everyone with a league system has the same dilemma. I guarantee the SFA/SPFL will be terrified of being the outlier who does something crazy like awarding titles and relegating teams with 20% of the league left, but it probably won't stop them doing it anyhow.

I'd say that pretty much sums their existence! 

[Beast Boy]

6 minutes ago, FarmerTweedy said:

looking on the bright side, we'll win a lot more games next season!

Fail to recognise that as a bright side.

[King Of The Cat Cafe]

7 minutes ago, FarmerTweedy said:

That's the key thing, of course. We've clearly signed up to the competition rules, and if those rules cover this situation and say we go down, then looking on the bright side, we'll win a lot more games next season!  If the rules don't cover this situation, they won't just be able to decide to relegate us though!

 

Bookmarked.  To be used against you should it not happen

[JJ93]

41 minutes ago, FarmerTweedy said:

That's the key thing, of course. We've clearly signed up to the competition rules, and if those rules cover this situation and say we go down, then looking on the bright side, we'll win a lot more games next season!  If the rules don't cover this situation, they won't just be able to decide to relegate us though!

And there’s a huge difference between explicitly and implicitly signing up to something. 

[TheGoodLord]

Surely the longer it goes on the better. Sounds like at leat 2 maybe 3 teams could go bust so very unlikely they’d relegate anyone. 

[Bunny Munro]

10 minutes ago, TheGoodLord said:

Surely the longer it goes on the better. Sounds like at leat 2 maybe 3 teams could go bust so very unlikely they’d relegate anyone. 

I'd rather we got relegated than anyone went bust. Have a heart.

[stan]

1 hour ago, FarmerTweedy said:

Actually, in F1, if a race is stopped, it's restarted with cars in the positions they were in when it was stopped.  If it can't be restarted and completed, the result is declared based on positions at the end of the penultimate completed lap. If less than 75% of the race distance has been completed, half points are awarded in the championships.

I appreciate that you didn't raise the comparison, but F1 is not comparable here. A race restart is like a match restart with a drop ball. It's not something that decides a championship unless it's the final event.

However, F1 traditionally makes up the rules as it goes along prioritising marketability over integrity...that is where the similarities do exist unfortunately.

[bigsuperslim1874]

2 hours ago, IveSeenTheLight said:

For the 2000/2001 season, there was to be a league reconstruction to increase to 12 teams, so in the 1999/2000 season, the construct was that the team that finished bottom (Aberdeen)would go into a three way round robin play-off, with the 2nd (Dunfermline) and third (Falkirk) placed team from the 2nd division.

The top two from the round robin to play in the top league.

 

As Falkirk did not have the facilities required at the time, the round robin play off did not happen and Dunfermline were promoted to the top tier, along with St Mirren as the division champions.

 

So it was not a foregone conclusion we would have been relegated that season and were only “saved” from having to play in the round robin play-off

 

Hmm I do think you were very fortunate. I will say that I had zero recollection of the play-off scenario however do clearly wasn’t as simple as I had recalled.

[Fozzyonthefence]

5 hours ago, LarrysRightFoot said:

i don’t think it’s an easy as that with TV and sponsorship deals. I can’t see this season being played to a conclusion - which again has TV and sponsorship issues. 
 

As a global viral pandemic has been predicted for a long time I’d like to think FIFA and UEFA have some outline of what they will recommend (probably wishful thinking though as governments have known it was going to happen for long time but don’t seem to have robust plans in place).  
 

As for the way forward IMO this season is over. Celtic champions. No relegation. Top 4 from championship promoted. Move to 2 bigger leagues below the Premiership.

That’s hypocritical imo - how can it be fair to have promotion based on an incomplete season but not fair to have relegation.  Maroon tinted specs aside, that doesn’t make any sense.

[TheGoodLord]

18 minutes ago, Bunny Munro said:

I'd rather we got relegated than anyone went bust. Have a heart.

You’re right this whole thing brings the worst out. 

[jbee647]

1 hour ago, FarmerTweedy said:

That's the key thing, of course. We've clearly signed up to the competition rules, and if those rules cover this situation and say we go down, then looking on the bright side, we'll win a lot more games next season!  If the rules don't cover this situation, they won't just be able to decide to relegate us though!

Listening to five live, they stated that any team relegated from the premiership without the season completed, ie Norwich Villa etc would have a cast iron case to get there legal teams involved, if we just accept this and take relegation without putting up a legal fight my respect for HMFC and those at the club will be greatly affected 
 

Btw this forum is absolutely reeking of Hibs vermin

Edited March 14, 2020 by jbee647

[Bongo 1874]

20 minutes ago, Bunny Munro said:

I'd rather we got relegated than anyone went bust. Have a heart.

How was your attitude on that when hibs felt that about us?. 

[Bongo 1874]

2 minutes ago, TheGoodLord said:

You’re right this whole thing brings the worst out. 

How was your attitude on that when hibs felt that about us?. 

[LarrysRightFoot]

17 minutes ago, Fozzyonthefence said:

That’s hypocritical imo - how can it be fair to have promotion based on an incomplete season but not fair to have relegation.  Maroon tinted specs aside, that doesn’t make any sense.

I don’t think it’s wholly fair either but without the season being played to a conclusion (which I can’t see) no outcome will be fair.

[ZanderMIM]

They’ll have plenty time to make a decision that’s for sure as we will likely be out of action until winter with the plan the government has set out!

[Walter Bishop]

Relegated by Boris!

 

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/sport/football/5387346/boris-johnson-scottish-premiership-over-celtic-hearts/amp/?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter&__twitter_impression=true

Edited March 14, 2020 by Walter Bishop

[GorgieRules22]

10 minutes ago, Walter Bishop said:

Relegated by Boris!

 

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/sport/football/5387346/boris-johnson-scottish-premiership-over-celtic-hearts/amp/?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter&__twitter_impression=true

What a load of shite

[indianajones]

21 minutes ago, Walter Bishop said:

Relegated by Boris!

 

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/sport/football/5387346/boris-johnson-scottish-premiership-over-celtic-hearts/amp/?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter&__twitter_impression=true

 

Just been linked this.

 

Total pish.

[Rocky jamboa]

We dont deserve to be saved really but I'd be surprised if we were relegated, if the league doesnt finish. Promoting dundee utd and one other more likely I reckon. The hobos will be fuming 😂😂😂

[Beast Boy]

1 hour ago, Bunny Munro said:

I'd rather we got relegated than anyone went bust. Have a heart.

I can categorically say that I’d rather another team went bust than us be relegated. As long as they were not OF/Hibs/St Mirren Id want them to ultimately survive... but someone going bust over us being relegated every single time.

[Beast Boy]

Links to the Sun with that headline in the link? Yes, I’ll be sure to click on that. Who still reads that shite?