The rise and fall of The SNP.

[Unknown user]

2 minutes ago, Alex Kintner said:

That’s becoming more and more obvious. There are posters on here who you can actually have a reasonable discussion with about Scottish politics and who can see more than one side of an issue. There’s other posters who fall over themselves to get angry at anything that Nicola Sturgeon or the SNP do.
 

Life just isn’t that black and white. You need to be able to see the subtleties. I can’t stand Douglas Ross but I can still respect him for certain things he’s done recently such as making a moral stand against partygate. 

 

Personally, I don't really like the SNP, they have more and more of a PTA committee feeling to them, and I really don't care for their vision of an independent Scotland.

 

But I do understand that the reason they're a bit incoherent and safe is that they're a hodge podge of ideologies who only really have independence in common. That's why I think the SNP will become irrelevant post independence, the various factions will break away according to their ideologies.

 

As an example, Sturgeon reckons we should take a share of UK debt - the ****, I say!

[Unknown user]

1 minute ago, jonesy said:

I'd rather a handy from you than Sturgeon, Schmidt. Can't imagine she'd have had as much practice... 👌

I don't believe I've ever given you a shandy, she's had at least as much practice as me

[Alex Kintner]

3 minutes ago, jonesy said:

To me, it is little more than a sop to a particularly niche pressure group and a cack-handed, cynical attempt to deflect from the genuine feminists who are concerned about the issue of people who want to change sex v women's rights.

 

Anyways, if you could let me know your next avatar change so I can read up and prepare my opposition to whatever it is in advance that'd be great 😋

It’ll be back to the yellow and blue Hearts badge tomorrow mate and god willing back to poor little Alex Kintner getting devoured soon after that 🤞🏻👍🏻

[Unknown user]

3 minutes ago, jonesy said:

To me, it is little more than a sop to a particularly niche pressure group and a cack-handed, cynical attempt to deflect from the genuine feminists who are concerned about the issue of people who want to change sex v women's rights.

 

Anyways, if you could let me know your next avatar change so I can read up and prepare my opposition to whatever it is in advance that'd be great 😋

 

The bit in bold, I mean kind of, but that's what governments do. The rest of it's a bit of a cynical take but I get it

[JudyJudyJudy]

5 minutes ago, jonesy said:

To me, it is little more than a sop to a particularly niche pressure group and a cack-handed, cynical attempt to deflect from the genuine feminists who are concerned about the issue of people who want to change sex v women's rights.

 

Anyways, if you could let me know your next avatar change so I can read up and prepare my opposition to whatever it is in advance that'd be great 😋

 

March 10th is next one “ international womens judges day” 

 

https://www.un.org/en/observances/list-days-weeks

[Alex Kintner]

5 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

Personally, I don't really like the SNP, they have more and more of a PTA committee feeling to them, and I really don't care for their vision of an independent Scotland.

 

But I do understand that the reason they're a bit incoherent and safe is that they're a hodge podge of ideologies who only really have independence in common. That's why I think the SNP will become irrelevant post independence, the various factions will break away according to their ideologies.

 

As an example, Sturgeon reckons we should take a share of UK debt - the ****, I say!

Yeah I can see the paradox and someone used the phrase “turkeys voting for Christmas” earlier which is quite a good analogy actually. A big rebranding and re-envisioning will certainly be required. Personally I don’t care if they cease to exist post-independence. At that point all I’ll care about is who I believe can make Scotland a better place for my daughters.

Edited March 8, 2022 by Alex Kintner

[JudyJudyJudy]

6 minutes ago, jonesy said:

To me, it is little more than a sop to a particularly niche pressure group and a cack-handed, cynical attempt to deflect from the genuine feminists who are concerned about the issue of people who want to change sex v women's rights.

 

Anyways, if you could let me know your next avatar change so I can read up and prepare my opposition to whatever it is in advance that'd be great 😋

 

[Alex Kintner]

3 minutes ago, jonesy said:

 

 

It's interesting that quite a few pro-indy posters on here have said something similar, re not liking the SNP.

 

I think the opposition to them from people like me (who perhaps voted for indy in 2014 but are less sure this time) is that, under Sturgeon, they have evolved into a party that seems very comfortable with exercising their (limited) powers and may not be terribly keen to push for the big 'I' if that would mean a dissolution of their stranglehold on the political scene.

 

And if, as is confidently predicted by many, independence is a reality, then it would be very surprising if the SNP in its current guise did not ride the crest of that particular wave and keep running the show for a significant time period, probably campaigning on a platform of 'how can you vote for parties that were unionist before?', as happened to the Tories initially post-devo.

Yeah that’s a good point and quite possibly the route they will go down. 
 

I vote for them as they are the vehicle to independence. I have mixed views on them as a party though. They have a lot of room for improvement on key issues like drug deaths, sectarianism and health but I like the direction and focus on early years and education and tackling poverty. 

[Alex Kintner]

2 minutes ago, jonesy said:

I used to do the same, until I realised that the Scotland they have created and are trying to develop is not particularly appealing to me and my values.

What particular things have turned you off if you don’t mind me asking?

[Japan Jambo]

1 hour ago, jonesy said:

Who's next? The Darien investors?  🤪

 

🤣👏

[manaliveits105]

After Mike Russell and msp Michele Thomson both compared Ukraines problems with Scotland and England - 

The Liberal Democrats are calling for the SNP and Mr Russell to apologise for the post. 

Willie Rennie, Scottish Liberal Democrat MSP said: "There's enough hot air coming off Mike Russell to end dependence on Russian oil and gas.

“It is utterly crass to draw any parallels between what is going on in Ukraine to Scotland’s situation, when people in Ukraine are fighting and dying to avoid falling under the yolk of the Kremlin.

[Alex Kintner]

4 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

After Mike Russell and msp Michele Thomson both compared Ukraines problems with Scotland and England - 

The Liberal Democrats are calling for the SNP and Mr Russell to apologise for the post. 

Willie Rennie, Scottish Liberal Democrat MSP said: "There's enough hot air coming off Mike Russell to end dependence on Russian oil and gas.

“It is utterly crass to draw any parallels between what is going on in Ukraine to Scotland’s situation, when people in Ukraine are fighting and dying to avoid falling under the yolk of the Kremlin.

It is totally crass and completely unnecessary. 

[Alex Kintner]

4 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Mainly their pro-witch stance. 

 

Other things, like the never-ending desire to be just a wee bitty different from London during Covid (before following suit shortly after in most cases), the dishing out of nominally free stuff to folk (such as prescriptions and bus passes), the mess they've made about folk who wish to change sex being given greater rights/a louder voice than natural women, Humza Yousaf being an absolute stroker, being a government that thinks government intervention is the main way to solve problems but then trying to absolve themselves of responsibility when things do go wrong such as with healthcare and drug deaths, the absurd witch-hunt (oooh, the irony)and handling of the 'Handy Alex' case, the desperate cling to power by going into coalition with the hairshirters which has left road infrastructure development stymied, and the wishy-washy curriculum that means my primary-aged sons can tell me more about historic injustices about LGBT folk (which I would suggest should be raised at Secondary School, not ignored, before anyone starts) and obscure Scottish islands than do sums accurately and spell properly (the latter two we spend a great deal of time on at home to make up for the lack of at their school which, bizarrely, is considered one of the best state primaries in Edinburgh).

 

All I can see her and her pals wanting is a generation of Scots who are burdened by the guilt of generations past and too frightened to speak out for themselves unless they wish to risk ostracisation (cf. Joanna Cherry), while being told that anything and everything they do is great, even when it's not, leading to a completely false understanding of how the real world operates.

Fair enough. I agree with some of the points you raise and disagree with others. I respect you taking the time to elaborate 👍🏻

[JudyJudyJudy]

4 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Mainly their pro-witch stance. 

 

Other things, like the never-ending desire to be just a wee bitty different from London during Covid (before following suit shortly after in most cases), the dishing out of nominally free stuff to folk (such as prescriptions and bus passes), the mess they've made about folk who wish to change sex being given greater rights/a louder voice than natural women, Humza Yousaf being an absolute stroker, being a government that thinks government intervention is the main way to solve problems but then trying to absolve themselves of responsibility when things do go wrong such as with healthcare and drug deaths, the absurd witch-hunt (oooh, the irony)and handling of the 'Handy Alex' case, the desperate cling to power by going into coalition with the hairshirters which has left road infrastructure development stymied, and the wishy-washy curriculum that means my primary-aged sons can tell me more about historic injustices about LGBT folk (which I would suggest should be raised at Secondary School, not ignored, before anyone starts) and obscure Scottish islands than do sums accurately and spell properly (the latter two we spend a great deal of time on at home to make up for the lack of at their school which, bizarrely, is considered one of the best state primaries in Edinburgh).

 

All I can see her and her pals wanting is a generation of Scots who are burdened by the guilt of generations past and too frightened to speak out for themselves unless they wish to risk ostracisation (cf. Joanna Cherry), while being told that anything and everything they do is great, even when it's not, leading to a completely false understanding of how the real world operates.

You forget their unhealthy and relentless intrusion into family life via “ the named person scheme “ which believes the state has the child’s best interests at heart more than a parent does . That did it for me a few years back . Also their promotion on dependency on the state instead of encouraging people to be more independent and self reliant . The rest I agree with . Teaching kids to be 

“ good citizens “ is fine but somewhere along the line learning to read , write and add and subtract might help too . 

[Alex Kintner]

4 minutes ago, jonesy said:

As long as you agree with my description of Humza 'Scootercam' Yousaf, we're all good.

Met him once when he was Justice minister. Wasn’t a fan if I’m honest.

👍🏻

Edited March 8, 2022 by Alex Kintner

[Cruyff]

1 hour ago, Alex Kintner said:

Yeah that’s a good point and quite possibly the route they will go down. 
 

I vote for them as they are the vehicle to independence. I have mixed views on them as a party though. They have a lot of room for improvement on key issues like drug deaths, sectarianism and health but I like the direction and focus on early years and education and tackling poverty. 

No ye dinnae. Just admit it, you're an SNP fanboi to the hilt. You've even got an SNP avatar on a Hearts football forum ffs.  "I have have mixed views on them as a party". 

 

So you do...  just admit it, you're card a carrying cultist. You actually pay for her bullshit. 

 

❤️

[Alex Kintner]

26 minutes ago, Cruyff said:

No ye dinnae. Just admit it, you're an SNP fanboi to the hilt. You've even got an SNP avatar on a Hearts football forum ffs.  "I have have mixed views on them as a party". 

 

So you do...  just admit it, you're card a carrying cultist. You actually pay for her bullshit. 

 

❤️

Did you mix me up with another poster? It’s not an SNP avatar. 🤷🏻‍♂️

Edited March 8, 2022 by Alex Kintner

[Alex Kintner]

10 hours ago, Alex Kintner said:

Let’s put the nonsense aside as I genuinely want to understand where you’re coming from. 
 

Is your point that you feel Brexit, Covid and the current situation lessen the argument for independence? 
 

If so what are you basing that on given Brexit and Covid were factored into the May 2021 elections and Westminster are making a pig’s ear of the current situation?

 

👍🏻

@Cruyff 👆🏻 
 

Edit. Ignore, just saw you did reply earlier and I totally missed it 👍🏻

Edited March 8, 2022 by Alex Kintner

[Alex Kintner]

5 hours ago, Cruyff said:

 

I don’t think Brexit is as big a factor now as it was when we left the EU and it probably won’t be in 5 or 6 years time. I reckon we'll have moved on from that argument. 

 

Support for Independence probably increased during Brexit because the UK government pissed all over the Devolution Settlement and showed utter contempt for Scotland while at the same time trying to negotiate a bespoke agreement for Northern Ireland.

 

Imo a lot of people would have voted SNP because they were the only party in Scotland that actually stood up and argued against the WM government. 

 

Many supporters of Independence and within the SNP itself do not support re-joining the EU. Yet, the SNP leadership seem to see an Indy Ref as a de facto vote on joining the European Union. 

 

Scotland’s biggest partner and ally post Independence will be the rUK, not the EU, for a number of reasons. 

 

Scotland being in the EU and our bordering nation not being in the EU would cause a whole host of problems. By the point Independence comes around we will have de-tangled ourselves from European Union legislation & conventions and will have trade agreements with other parts of the world which may be more valuable to us than those with the EU.

 

The dust should be allowed to settle for a number of years post Indy before we debate whether or not we should become part of the EU. EU membership might not suit us 5-10-20 years down the road. Things change, economics change all the time. 

 

Due to that I feel that the SNP need to take a more neutral stance on EU membership because it really isn't up to them to decide that for Scotland. That is their policy and if they want to run on that ticket post Independence and put that in their manifesto, that's fine, they can do that, but it's not something that should be forced upon us as a condition of Independence. 

 

As for Covid. I think Sturgeon and the Scottish Government did their best under very difficult circumstances and I don’t think it is fair to criticise the Scottish Government on Covid. It could be argued that if Scotland were Independent before Covid and able to control our own borders would have enabled us to limit the spread of the virus. 

 

But Covid is also a reminder of the threat posed by a biological weapons and for me it isn’t so much to do with the performance of NHS or Governments response and ability to handle a crisis but about Security and Defence. 

 

I don’t know about you but if Scotland were going to be an Independent Country I'd want a Government that is serious and has the capabilities and partners to defend itself and its interests against an aggressor state or affiliated groups, whether that be from Military aggression, a virus or cyber attacks. 

 

The SNP's current position on NATO membership and the Deterrent is not that of a serious Government. I'm sorry but it isn’t. They are going to have to reaffirm their commitment to NATO membership and with that comes a Nuclear Base in Faslane.

 

You know as well as I do that this is going to become a big issue and when arguing for Independence and that will be a stick that the SNP are going to be beaten with.  

 

I don’t think the issues you have highlighted necessarily lessen the case for Independence. Imo it is the SNP's current position that is lessening the case for Independence. 

 

You said it yourself, they need to evolve and that means moving away from this idealistic view of Scotland from the perspective of a Devolved Administration,  to being taken seriously as a Government which is and able to meet the every day challenges faced by Governments of Independent Countries around the world. The world isn't going to conform to the idealism of the SNP's Independent Scotland, they are going to have to adapt to it. 

Thanks for taking the time to explain your position in a more detail. I agree with a lot of what you’re saying.

 

The SNP cannot nail their colours to the mast re rejoining the EU. As you say it would create so many frictions at the border into England. It could come at a later date but only if feasible and workable (and maybe even in conjunction with rest of UK rejoining single market).

 

Defence is another concern and I’d want to feel comfortable with the plans set out in the white paper. I don’t want my daughters growing up in a country which is vulnerable. 
 

👍🏻

Edited March 8, 2022 by Alex Kintner

[luckydug]

2 hours ago, XB52 said:

This place gets madder by the day. Our FM spends 2 minutes talking about women being murdered throughout history on IWD and the unionists jump in with both feet. Never change JKB 😂😂

Seems to be outrage for the least thing by the Unionists. 

Some folk wear their UJ like a football scarf. 

It's quite ironic to hear Unionists criticising the SG over sectarianism. 

 

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

 

Ooops 

 

 

[jack D and coke]

18 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

 

Ooops 

 

 

See before I post anything from a twitter account ill have a look at their timeline. Did you read the account that posted this stuff? This person is utterly obsessed with the SNP. Every single tweet on their timeline  retweeting agent P and 🤡 like that. 
Best ignored. A bit like you these days pal. 

 

[The Real Maroonblood]

1 minute ago, jack D and coke said:

See before I post anything from a twitter account ill have a look at their timeline. Did you read the account that posted this stuff? This person is utterly obsessed with the SNP. Every single tweet on their timeline  retweeting agent P and 🤡 like that. 
Best ignored. A bit like you these days pal. 

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

3 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

See before I post anything from a twitter account ill have a look at their timeline. Did you read the account that posted this stuff? This person is utterly obsessed with the SNP. Every single tweet on their timeline  retweeting agent P and 🤡 like that. 
Best ignored. A bit like you these days pal. 

 

Awe ! Thought we were getting on better 😂 it just made me laugh ps there was a few others who noted her flowery error , wasn’t just milly 

Edited March 9, 2022 by JamesM48

[jack D and coke]

6 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

Awe ! Thought we were getting on better 😂 it just made me laugh ps there was a few others who noted her flowery error , wasn’t just milly 

Nowt personal pal👍🏼
This person who noticed the flowery error tweets multiple times energy single day about the snp, bit like you again actually😀

They ain’t above criticism by any means but obsessions I don’t have time for. 
She’s a Daily “hoose jock” Express reader if ever I seen one😀

[JudyJudyJudy]

Just now, jack D and coke said:

Nowt personal pal👍🏼
This person who noticed the flowery error tweets multiple times energy single day about the snp, bit like you again actually😀

They ain’t above criticism by any means but obsessions I don’t have time for. 
She’s a Daily “hoose jock” Express reader if ever I seen one😀

😂😂😂 I’ve never seen her before 

[manaliveits105]

37 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

 

Ooops 

 

 

No doubt Elsie posed for news cameras though the most important thing 

[Unknown user]

4 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

No doubt Elsie posed for news cameras though the most important thing 

 

 

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

6 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

No doubt Elsie posed for news cameras though the most important thing 

Surprisingly there was no selfie it seems , it’ll be headline “ news” on SNTV at 6 

[Japan Jambo]

Wee Nicky a picture question on Pointless - make your own jokes please..

[Unknown user]

It's hard to believe that on this mental island, full of radge politicians, it's the fairly benign Sturgeon that stirs up such negative emotion in the McGammon.

[Japan Jambo]

2 minutes ago, Smithee said:

It's hard to believe that on this mental island, full of radge politicians, it's the fairly benign Sturgeon that stirs up such negative emotion in the McGammon.

 

🤣 Only have to mention her name and out come the racist slurs.

[Unknown user]

Just now, Japan Jambo said:

 

🤣 Only have to mention her name and out come the racist slurs.

 

 

[manaliveits105]

Camera rolled a bit early as she grabbed the nappies off the volunteer to pretend she was packing aid boxes 

comedy gold 

and yes if you were visiting a Ukrainian Community aid centre just now you would obviously dress in RED ffs 

Inspirational !

[Jambo_jim2001]

19 hours ago, luckydug said:

Seems to be outrage for the least thing by the Unionists. 

Some folk wear their UJ like a football scarf. 

It's quite ironic to hear Unionists criticising the SG over sectarianism. 

 

 

 

[luckydug]

1 hour ago, Smithee said:

It's hard to believe that on this mental island, full of radge politicians, it's the fairly benign Sturgeon that stirs up such negative emotion in the McGammon.

Some folk must like her. 

She strolls every election. 

Haters gonna hate😏

[Roxy Hearts]

29 minutes ago, luckydug said:

Some folk must like her. 

She strolls every election. 

Haters gonna hate😏

I love how she winds up folk. Brilliant to read getting all twisted and contorted the British way.

[Alex Kintner]

20 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

I love how she winds up folk. Brilliant to read getting all twisted and contorted the British way.

I used to revel in the fact she seemed to noise up so many people but now it just makes me feel a bit sad. It’s clear she’s not doing it on purpose which only leaves the conclusion that there’s quite a few delicate snowflakes around who can’t see more than one perspective on things. It’s not a great look for our country to be honest.

🤷🏻‍♂️

Edited March 9, 2022 by Alex Kintner

[jambomjm74]

17 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

I love how she winds up folk. Brilliant to read getting all twisted and contorted the British way.

Nice bit of Racism. 
Nationalism really is the measles of the mind. 

[Pans Jambo]

7 minutes ago, jambomjm74 said:

Nice bit of Racism. 
Nationalism really is the measles of the mind. 

Would ”snowflake” offend???

[jambomjm74]

Just now, Pans Jambo said:

Would ”snowflake” offend???

If you are implying that I am a snowflake, no I’d laugh it off. 
If you said British are all snowflakes, that would be racist and clearly offensive. 
I think you know the difference. 
Assume you think it’s ok to say British are “twisted and contorted” which is racist. 

[Pans Jambo]

Just now, jambomjm74 said:

If you are implying that I am a snowflake, no I’d laugh it off. 
If you said British are all snowflakes, that would be racist and clearly offensive. 
I think you know the difference. 
Assume you think it’s ok to say British are “twisted and contorted” which is racist. 

Assume all you like. I suggest you start on page 1 of this thread to see the amount of casual racism directed towards anyone who talks up Scotland or the SNP. A bit stronger than “twisted & contorted” too.

 

But Im not a victim or a snowflake so you dont need to report back or anything. 

 

[Roxy Hearts]

17 minutes ago, jambomjm74 said:

Nice bit of Racism. 
Nationalism really is the measles of the mind. 

Racism! What are you on about?

[jambomjm74]

1 minute ago, Pans Jambo said:

Assume all you like. I suggest you start on page 1 of this thread to see the amount of casual racism directed towards anyone who talks up Scotland or the SNP. A bit stronger than “twisted & contorted” too.

 

But Im not a victim or a snowflake so you dont need to report back or anything. 

 

The SNP are most definitely not Scotland, for some they are. Like any govt they have a massive role in both good and bad.  
Independence would create opportunities and risks, definitely not all good or all bad hence even after Brexit and Boris polls are split. 
What I’ve called out is racist views of”British” from another poster. 

[jambomjm74]

2 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

Racism! What are you on about?

If you read your last statement about the British way is about getting twisted and contorted.  

[Roxy Hearts]

1 minute ago, jambomjm74 said:

If you read your last statement about the British way is about getting twisted and contorted.  

They do. A lot of them are twisted and they contort the truth. 

 

[jambomjm74]

1 minute ago, Roxy Hearts said:

They do. A lot of them are twisted and they contort the truth. 

 

So does any one. It’s really not just a British trait. 

[Roxy Hearts]

3 minutes ago, jambomjm74 said:

So does any one. It’s really not just a British trait. 

I'm talking about those types that demean their own country, Scotland. Plenty of them. 

[jambomjm74]

1 minute ago, Roxy Hearts said:

I'm talking about those types that demean their own country, Scotland. Plenty of them. 

Demean their country, do you

mean they don’t agree with independence, they are not the same thing.. it feels like to you they are. 
Calling out SNP failures, that isn’t the same as demeaning Scotland either. 

 

[Roxy Hearts]

4 minutes ago, jambomjm74 said:

Demean their country, do you

mean they don’t agree with independence, they are not the same thing.. it feels like to you they are. 
Calling out SNP failures, that isn’t the same as demeaning Scotland either. 

 

I'm not talking about the SNP but I'd trust them over the alternatives! Look at a huge section of  Rangers fans, Orange Order types, BBC journalists, Brit Mps/ establishment. I wouldn't trust Cole-Hamilton, Sarwar, Murdo Fraser, Ross to stand up for our country.

 

We're told we've no oil or renewable energy isn't stable but the UK need it. I've heard the same garbage for years. I absolutely loathe Britnats!