Coronavirus Super Thread ( merged )

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

No. It cant be proven that people have taken the vaccine so they can get a VP i would imagine. 

Ergo, any extension in the VP scheme cannot be evidence based.

[kila]

Just now, Nucky Thompson said:

No change in ICU from yesterday and 8 more in Hospital 

 

👍

 

[Alex Kintner]

20 minutes ago, Longbaws said:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.sky.com/story/amp/boris-johnson-making-plans-to-add-evidence-of-booster-jab-to-covid-passports-12469417 

 

 

👍🏻

[Alex Kintner]

5 minutes ago, Jonkel Hoon said:

Ergo, any extension in the VP scheme cannot be evidence based.

Isn’t the reasoning for the extension based around an expected reduction in cases rather than a rise in vaccinations?

[redjambo]

33 minutes ago, kila said:

I miss red's stats because although I didn't pay too much attention to cases, I liked to see what the  hospital/ICU numbers are. Sure I can find that out myself but it's too much effort for my lazy thumb when I just want to scroll and be spoon fed 😎

 

Go here https://www.travellingtabby.com/scotland-coronavirus-tracker/ and scroll down to "Hospital and ICU figures by Day". Mouse over any of the bars to get the daily figures. Your eye will give you the trends.

[kila]

11 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

Go here https://www.travellingtabby.com/scotland-coronavirus-tracker/ and scroll down to "Hospital and ICU figures by Day". Mouse over any of the bars to get the daily figures. Your eye will give you the trends.

 

Cheers

[Dennis Denuto]

11 hours ago, Jonkel Hoon said:

Ergo, any extension in the VP scheme cannot be evidence based.

The problem you have is the basic figures back it up, Scotland is leading the UK in %population Vaccinated in all three doses and it is the only place in the UK with VP requirement  ( I think, might be wrong). So it is an easy sell to the population that they are working and therefor even more restrictive ones would work even better.

 

Of course this may well not be telling the full picture if you drill down into the numbers, but how many are going to bother doing that?

[JudyJudyJudy]

12 hours ago, Jonkel Hoon said:

Ergo, any extension in the VP scheme cannot be evidence based.

Yes 

12 hours ago, Alex Kintner said:

Isn’t the reasoning for the extension based around an expected reduction in cases rather than a rise in vaccinations?

its to try and encourage/ coercive / blackmail  more to get the vaccine surely. Its not about any safety issues about these venues at all really. IMO 

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 hour ago, Dennis Denuto said:

The problem you have is the basic figures back it up, Scotland is leading the UK in %population Vaccinated in all three doses and it is the only place in the UK with VP requirement  ( I think, might be wrong). So it is an easy sell to the population that they are working and therefor even more restrictive ones would work even better.

 

Of course this may well not be telling the full picture if you drill down into the numbers, but how many are going to bother doing that?

" an easy sell to the population they are working well" .  that's just not true . It would maybe be true if there was a comparison if England had VPs but they dont. Scotland has always lead the way with higher rates of vaccination irrespective of VP.  

 

Covid vaccine: How many people are vaccinated in the UK? - BBC News

[Alex Kintner]

25 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

its to try and encourage/ coercive / blackmail  more to get the vaccine surely. Its not about any safety issues about these venues at all really. IMO 

So why are countries like Austria putting further passport restrictions in place due to rising cases and people in hospital with Covid? The plan in Austria stated that the restrictions would be extended once a certain number of hospital beds were full of Covid patients, not because of where vaccination rates were.

[Des Lynam]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/11/16/nhs-delays-height-pandemic-linked-thousands-extra-non-covid/

[Japan Jambo]

15 hours ago, redjambo said:

 

And install smoke alarms in our houses. I for one will oppose such a totalitarian society!

 

Been having far too many conversations with my elderly mum about this - bad enough telling people what to do in their own homes but by insisting on them being interlinked one removes a solution that could of be had for £50 and turns it into a cottage industry that'll cost 5 times that. Absolutely ridiculous and a massive overreach imo. Many pensioners like my mum will struggle to afford this.

[Taffin]

I like these graphs as I'm a visual guy and it helps me process what I'm looking at.

 

Scotland have brought the deaths down which is excellent.

 

Still painting a rosy picture for me. Less than 2 deaths per 100k...to me is fantastic and doesn't warrant much more than cursory interest. Not sure how it compares to other illnesses and diseases (it's not a competition and I'm not making it one) but I think the residual worry and flapping is now nothing more than conditioning not reflective of the reality. All imo, feel free to take something else from the charts or highlight to me what context I'm missing viewing it through just two metrics.

 

 

 

Edit: just for clarity these are lifted straight from Travelling Tabby. My attempts at graphs would be infinitely crapper.

Edited November 17, 2021 by Taffin

[JudyJudyJudy]

7 minutes ago, Taffin said:

I like these graphs as I'm a visual guy and it helps me process what I'm looking at.

 

Scotland have brought the deaths down which is excellent.

 

Still painting a rosy picture for me. Less than 2 deaths per 100k...to me is fantastic and doesn't warrant much more than cursory interest. Not sure how it compares to other illnesses and diseases (it's not a competition and I'm not making it one) but I think the residual worry and flapping is now nothing more than conditioning not reflective of the reality. All imo, feel free to take something else from the charts or highlight to me what context I'm missing viewing it through just two metrics.

 

 

 

Edit: just for clarity these are lifted straight from Travelling Tabby. My attempts at graphs would be infinitely crapper.

So the lowest weekly transmissions is the nation with next to nothing restrictions and  no vaccine passports. ?  Quelle surprise. 

[Alex Kintner]

4 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

So the lowest weekly transmissions is the nation with next to nothing restrictions and  no vaccine passports. ?  Quelle surprise. 

Deaths is the key stat for me. I have zero faith in the case number stats being provided, especially if they include LFTs which are dreadful.

[Psychedelicropcircle]

16 hours ago, XB52 said:

It's called an election and we had one not long ago. Thankfully the people of Scotland voted her back

& she just lost a vote here✅
 

could have easily used LF tests but the power got to her!

[JudyJudyJudy]

2 minutes ago, Alex Kintner said:

Deaths is the key stat for me. I have zero faith in the case number stats being provided, especially if they include LFTs which are dreadful.

Try convincing the SG then that cases are not the key stats...

[JudyJudyJudy]

Just now, Psychedelicropcircle said:

& she just lost a vote here✅
 

could have easily used LF tests but the power got to her!

Yes im now an  EX  SNP supporter too. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

4 minutes ago, Alex Kintner said:

Deaths is the key stat for me. I have zero faith in the case number stats being provided, especially if they include LFTs which are dreadful.

Do agree regarding the death stats. They should be the main barometer of policy. 

[Victorian]

Actually deaths is not the most important measure at all.  Hospitalisations is far and away the most important measure.  

 

Hypothetically,  you could have an illness that has a high mortality rate if untreated.  The treatment might be straightforward and have a 100% rate.  All people treated = 0 mortality.  As soon as you have people unable to access treatment (hospitals unable to admit) then mortality = something above 0 and would be preventable.  Also factor in all of the non-covid treatment that needs done and any that is unneccesarily prevented due to excessive demand.  

 

People are dying despite treatment.  Nobody is dying due to not receiving treatment.  Doomsday scenario has always been people dying due to not being able to receive treatment that would have prevented them dying.  Covid and non-covid.

 

Hospitalisation figures will continue to steer decision making.

Edited November 17, 2021 by Victorian

[JudyJudyJudy]

" there is a 100% chance we are going to die"....

 

when i heard this it just reminded me of this thread...so keep grounded people.  this film actually looks very funny....

 

 

Netflix releases hilarious trailer for Don't Look Up (digitalspy.com)

 

[Alex Kintner]

18 minutes ago, jonesy said:

I think @redjambo replied to my question on this a few months ago by saying LFTs are not included in case numbers, only PCRs.

Thank goodness for that. LFTs should be binned. Absolute waste of time. I took three while very ill with Covid and all came back negative. I had two positive PCRs during the same time. Got two friends who had a very similar experience.

[Alex Kintner]

4 minutes ago, Victorian said:

Actually deaths is not the most important measure at all.  Hospitalisations is far and away the most important measure.  

 

Hypothetically,  you could have an illness that has a high mortality rate if untreated.  The treatment might be straightforward and have a 100% rate.  1000 people treated = 0 mortality.  As soon as you have people unable to access treatment (hospitals unable to admit) then mortality = something above 0 and would be preventable.  Also factor in all of the non-covid treatment that needs done and any that is unneccesarily prevented due to excessive demand.  

 

People are dying despite treatment.  Nobody is dying due to not receiving treatment.  Doomsday scenario has always been people dying due to not being able to receive treatment that would have prevented them dying.  Covid and non-covid.

 

Hospitalisation figures will continue to steer decision making.

That’s very true, Vic. I was meaning out of the two graphs provided.

[Guest]

I can't understand why the Govt are not targeting vacinne hesitant groups.

 

According the the news last night, Polish people in Scotland only have a 50% take up rate. A focused campaign in their native language would surely be more use than the time and effort of the broadbrush VP scheme.

 

Same for other categories, whether its young, BAME etc

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 minute ago, Alex Kintner said:

That’s very true, Vic. I was meaning out of the two graphs provided.

I think the dead people might disagree with you if they weren't dead... . However i do see the point about hospital admissions etc impacted on beds and other treatments etc. 

[Victorian]

Just now, Alex Kintner said:

That’s very true, Vic. I was meaning out of the two graphs provided.

 

👍

 

One useful measure will be to track the ongoing relationship between cases and hospitalisations.  If the relationship changes either way then that too should steer policy.

[Mysterion]

2 minutes ago, Victorian said:

Hospitalisation figures will continue to steer decision making.

 

Would tend to agree that hospitalisations will be the main figure whilst deaths/cases number help to balance views - the vaccines have helped reduce the impact of covid19 but the hospitalisation rate has a significant knock on effect to many other parts of society. 

 

If hospitals are overloaded with people unable to breath whilst operations/treatments for major diseases are postponed/cancelled it creates a snowball effect that can hurt many more people & families. 

 

Suggesting death rate as the single figure to determine how we move forward is a bit naive. 

[The Real Maroonblood]

6 minutes ago, Jonkel Hoon said:

I can't understand why the Govt are not targeting vacinne hesitant groups.

 

According the the news last night, Polish people in Scotland only have a 50% take up rate. A focused campaign in their native language would surely be more use than the time and effort of the broadbrush VP scheme.

 

Same for other categories, whether its young, BAME etc

Maybe the government should introduce the Austrian approach.

[Victorian]

Most of the media reporting of the possible extension of certification appears to concentrate on cinemas and theatres.  It would certainly be infinitely easier to define settings to be included.  

 

Regarding pubs,  the SCMO suggested that there's a distinctly different epidemic in the very young adult ages from that in older ages.  We also know that vaccine coverage is higher in older groups.  Maybe they should examine some kind of temporary and optional minimum age of entry for pubs.  They can dodge using the VP system if they apply a minimum age.  30 or 35 perhaps.  

 

 

[Taffin]

I agree with @Victorian that decision-makers need to use hospitalisations as well.

 

As a non-decision maker it isn't one that hugely piques my interest but for those it does here is the corresponding Travelling Tabby chart:

 

 

[XB52]

1 hour ago, Psychedelicropcircle said:

& she just lost a vote here✅
 

could have easily used LF tests but the power got to her!

?? What vote?? Also they have said they are looking at introducing LF tests alongside VPs. As I and many others have said many times, one of the main reasons to have VPs was to boost the numbers of young people getting vaccinated and, as Scotland has the highest rate of vaccinations in the UK it seems to have worked. 

Edited to say I see you mean you won't vote for the SNP, that's your right although God knows who you vote for if not them 

Edited November 17, 2021 by XB52

[XB52]

15 hours ago, Jonkel Hoon said:

Ergo, any extension in the VP scheme cannot be evidence based.

Scotland has the highest vaccine rate in the UK. Anyone saying the VP scheme hasn't contributed to that is denying reality

[Victorian]

2 minutes ago, Taffin said:

I agree with @Victorian that decision-makers need to use hospitalisations as well.

 

As a non-decision maker it isn't one that hugely piques my interest but for those it does here is the corresponding Travelling Tabby chart:

 

 

 

Ideal graph.  👍

 

Looks like the case-hospital link tracks consistently.  Possibly showing a gradual weakening.

[redjambo]

2 hours ago, Alex Kintner said:

Deaths is the key stat for me. I have zero faith in the case number stats being provided, especially if they include LFTs which are dreadful.

 

The main Scottish stats do not include LFTs. Neither, as far as I am aware, do the overall UK stats.

[JudyJudyJudy]

3 hours ago, jonesy said:

 

"Restrict us, restrict us!"

"Okay, we'll restrict you, you naughty boys and people with cervixes."

"Oh thank you Chief Mammy. Oh, that feels goooooood."

 

Maybe she needs to wear the full dominatrix outfit for those so in need of restrictions ! 

3 hours ago, Alex Kintner said:

So why are countries like Austria putting further passport restrictions in place due to rising cases and people in hospital with Covid? The plan in Austria stated that the restrictions would be extended once a certain number of hospital beds were full of Covid patients, not because of where vaccination rates were.

Cause they have a different mind set , different culture maybe ? 

1 hour ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

Maybe the government should introduce the Austrian approach.

Yes that sounds quite final a actually . Maybe be good solution. ? 

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 hour ago, Jonkel Hoon said:

I can't understand why the Govt are not targeting vacinne hesitant groups.

 

According the the news last night, Polish people in Scotland only have a 50% take up rate. A focused campaign in their native language would surely be more use than the time and effort of the broadbrush VP scheme.

 

Same for other categories, whether its young, BAME etc

 

1 hour ago, Victorian said:

Most of the media reporting of the possible extension of certification appears to concentrate on cinemas and theatres.  It would certainly be infinitely easier to define settings to be included.  

 

Regarding pubs,  the SCMO suggested that there's a distinctly different epidemic in the very young adult ages from that in older ages.  We also know that vaccine coverage is higher in older groups.  Maybe they should examine some kind of temporary and optional minimum age of entry for pubs.  They can dodge using the VP system if they apply a minimum age.  30 or 35 perhaps.  

 

 

Oh my Lord ! 
 

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, XB52 said:

Scotland has the highest vaccine rate in the UK. Anyone saying the VP scheme hasn't contributed to that is denying reality

If that's the case, there should be figures to back it up. If there are, then great. 

[Enzo Chiefo]

There seems to be a perception-Johnson and Sturgeon have both mentioned it - that what is happening in Europe will somehow visit us. It's arse about tit. 

Last month we had higher cases than Europe and were told it didn't bode well for winter. Now we're expected to believe that lower cases than Europe also bodes badly.

 

The "wave" washed up on Europe's shores from here. They are behind us on this.

 

Living with Covid means exactly that.

[redjambo]

4 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

There seems to be a perception-Johnson and Sturgeon have both mentioned it - that what is happening in Europe will somehow visit us. It's arse about tit. 

Last month we had higher cases than Europe and were told it didn't bode well for winter. Now we're expected to believe that lower cases than Europe also bodes badly.

 

The "wave" washed up on Europe's shores from here. They are behind us on this.

 

Living with Covid means exactly that.

 

We'll have to see what happens, of course, but I personally would be surprised if the European wave hits us, assuming no new variant is involved, given the effective immunity we've built up in the UK and how unrestricted and mixing we've been for quite a while now.

[Victorian]

11 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

There seems to be a perception-Johnson and Sturgeon have both mentioned it - that what is happening in Europe will somehow visit us. It's arse about tit. 

Last month we had higher cases than Europe and were told it didn't bode well for winter. Now we're expected to believe that lower cases than Europe also bodes badly.

 

The "wave" washed up on Europe's shores from here. They are behind us on this.

 

Living with Covid means exactly that.

 

I was thinking along these lines.  We seemed to have our higher numbers and our vaccination coverage is better.  I'm not sure there can or will be a direct spike as a consequence of high rates in Europe as it stands.  

[JudyJudyJudy]

19 minutes ago, jonesy said:

In years to come, Scottish dominatrixes may end up having to wear primary-coloured dress/jacket combos to cater to their market.

You do make me laugh 😂 

17 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

There seems to be a perception-Johnson and Sturgeon have both mentioned it - that what is happening in Europe will somehow visit us. It's arse about tit. 

Last month we had higher cases than Europe and were told it didn't bode well for winter. Now we're expected to believe that lower cases than Europe also bodes badly.

 

The "wave" washed up on Europe's shores from here. They are behind us on this.

 

Living with Covid means exactly that.

It’s just a stick to prod us with to encourage more uptake of the vaccine aka state sponsored scare mongering 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

23 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

There seems to be a perception-Johnson and Sturgeon have both mentioned it - that what is happening in Europe will somehow visit us. It's arse about tit. 

Last month we had higher cases than Europe and were told it didn't bode well for winter. Now we're expected to believe that lower cases than Europe also bodes badly.

 

The "wave" washed up on Europe's shores from here. They are behind us on this.

 

Living with Covid means exactly that.

 

Couldn't believe it when I heard them and 'experts' mention this, and your right it's the UK which has spread the Delta variant to mainland Europe, not the other way around.

 

[Gizmo]

3 hours ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

Been having far too many conversations with my elderly mum about this - bad enough telling people what to do in their own homes but by insisting on them being interlinked one removes a solution that could of be had for £50 and turns it into a cottage industry that'll cost 5 times that. Absolutely ridiculous and a massive overreach imo. Many pensioners like my mum will struggle to afford this.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/HEIMAN-Interconnected-Transmission-Interlinkable-Battery-Operated/dp/B089Y8M5J4/ref=sr_1_5?crid=2722I4TE4KRCZ&keywords=linked+smoke+alarms&qid=1637155487&smid=A9LS93X4B7E5L&sprefix=linked+smo%2Caps%2C167&sr=8-5

Assuming they don't insist on mains power?

Edited November 17, 2021 by Gizmo

[Pasquale for King]

29 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

We'll have to see what happens, of course, but I personally would be surprised if the European wave hits us, assuming no new variant is involved, given the effective immunity we've built up in the UK and how unrestricted and mixing we've been for quite a while now.

Is there such a thing as a European wave mate, the UK has higher figures than any other country in Europe on every count. I get that all told the figures are higher in Europe but with less travel surely that’s likely to negate any surge. 
Seems like another deflection tactic from BJ and his cronies.  

[Pasquale for King]

11 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Couldn't believe it when I heard them and 'experts' mention this, and your right it's the UK which has spread the Delta variant to mainland Europe, not the other way around.

 

Spot on 

[Victorian]

1 minute ago, Pasquale for King said:

Is there such a thing as a European wave mate, the UK has higher figures than any other country in Europe on every count. I get that all told the figures are higher in Europe but with less travel surely that’s likely to negate any surge. 
Seems like another deflection tactic from BJ and his cronies.  

 

Nope.  The infection rate in quite a lot of Europe is higher than UK as a rate per million people.  A lot of other countries are well on the way to overtaking UK as well.  

[redjambo]

3 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

Is there such a thing as a European wave mate, the UK has higher figures than any other country in Europe on every count. I get that all told the figures are higher in Europe but with less travel surely that’s likely to negate any surge. 
Seems like another deflection tactic from BJ and his cronies.  

 

Just because we have higher figures doesn't mean that European numbers are not increasing significantly.

 

Here's the relevant chart from Travelling Tabby. Some EU countries are of course increasing more rapidly than the EU average, others less.

 

 

[bairdy]

17 hours ago, manaliveits105 said:

Brilliant ! 😄

[Japan Jambo]

25 minutes ago, Gizmo said:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/HEIMAN-Interconnected-Transmission-Interlinkable-Battery-Operated/dp/B089Y8M5J4/ref=sr_1_5?crid=2722I4TE4KRCZ&keywords=linked+smoke+alarms&qid=1637155487&smid=A9LS93X4B7E5L&sprefix=linked+smo%2Caps%2C167&sr=8-5

Assuming they don't insist on mains power?

 

Thanks Gizmo, when I last looked a couple of months back they weren't as cheap as that! I'll check in with her and see what she has done.

[jvm32]

44 minutes ago, Gizmo said:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/HEIMAN-Interconnected-Transmission-Interlinkable-Battery-Operated/dp/B089Y8M5J4/ref=sr_1_5?crid=2722I4TE4KRCZ&keywords=linked+smoke+alarms&qid=1637155487&smid=A9LS93X4B7E5L&sprefix=linked+smo%2Caps%2C167&sr=8-5

Assuming they don't insist on mains power?

 

The regulations say you also need a heat alarm interlinked with the fire alarms as part of the set up, from what I could see that doesn't seem to be part of that set up on offer.