Coronavirus Super Thread ( merged )

[Unknown user]

Just now, Pasquale for King said:

I’m not sure how anyone can criticise NZ or Arden compared to 200k deaths in the U.K.?

Beats me too

[Footballfirst]

1 hour ago, JamesM48 said:

 

looks like their economy has went tits up
 

 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/business-54186359.amp

The GDP of the UK fell by 19.6% over the same 2nd quarter of 2020. (ONS figures).  The OECD recorded a fall of 20.4%.

Edited October 5, 2021 by Footballfirst

[MoncurMacdonaldMercer]

30 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

Mon then, what do you appreciate about the complexities of these stats that I don't?

Bear in mind you believe you have enough information to draw a conclusion whereas I’m saying I don’t believe that we have sufficient information - not that your conclusion is wrong just that it’s not really supportable as it stands

 

so an easy one to start with - what figure are you putting on the massive geographical advantage that NZ had to allow them to close their borders so efficiently ? analysis-backed figure if we’re pretending this is anything beyond ‘I think this …’ type thing

 

 

 

 

 

[The Mighty Thor]

2 hours ago, Beni said:

 

Djokovic makes the flat earthers look like well researched empiricists.

 

“I’ve seen people and I know some people that, through that energetical (sic) transformation, through the power of prayer, through the power of gratitude, they manage to turn the most toxic food or the most polluted water, into the most healing water.

“Because water reacts and scientists have proven that, that molecules in the water react to our emotions, to what is being said.  

 

 

https://www.news.com.au/sport/tennis/novak-djokovic-criticised-for-dangerous-conspiracy-theory/news-story/e877371fb101f8abb36531153a9bb893?amp 

Makes some of the shite our resident bangers come out with look like it's been critically thought through.

[JudyJudyJudy]

51 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

The GDP of the UK fell by 19.6% over the same 2nd quarter of 2020. (ONS figures).  The OECD recorded a fall of 20.4%.

Yes but the long term impact is still to be felt 

[Unknown user]

1 hour ago, MoncurMacdonaldMercer said:

Bear in mind you believe you have enough information to draw a conclusion whereas I’m saying I don’t believe that we have sufficient information - not that your conclusion is wrong just that it’s not really supportable as it stands

 

so an easy one to start with - what figure are you putting on the massive geographical advantage that NZ had to allow them to close their borders so efficiently ? analysis-backed figure if we’re pretending this is anything beyond ‘I think this …’ type thing

 

If only there were another island nation we could use as comparison if we have to get into it. Rats!

 

This is kind of missing the point though- people are questioning who can say NZ were right in their approach?

They dealt with their situation and kept their deaths down to double digits. Of course their approach was right.

They have other challenges now, and we all hope they get them right too, but they should be applauded for keeping their citizens alive.

[MoncurMacdonaldMercer]

9 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

If only there were another island nation we could use as comparison if we have to get into it. Rats!

 

This is kind of missing the point though- people are questioning who can say NZ were right in their approach?

They dealt with their situation and kept their deaths down to double digits. Of course their approach was right.

They have other challenges now, and we all hope they get them right too, but they should be applauded for keeping their citizens alive.

As I said we’re better just agreeing to disagree not necessarily on the final conclusion more the timing and the requirement to normalise the the vast differences which I think is the bit you are particularly struggling with

 

the inference that two islands can’t be vastly different in the key factors nicely nails the lack of depth of understanding

 

 

 

 

 

[Unknown user]

12 minutes ago, MoncurMacdonaldMercer said:

As I said we’re better just agreeing to disagree not necessarily on the final conclusion more the timing and the requirement to normalise the the vast differences which I think is the bit you are particularly struggling with

 

the inference that two islands can’t be vastly different in the key factors nicely nails the lack of depth of understanding

 

 

NZ got it right, they kept their population alive

[MoncurMacdonaldMercer]

12 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

NZ got it right, they kept their population alive

 

if you want to compare between countries you need to normalise the key differences - understandably you’ve been unable to do that

 

another comparison which could be possible is comparing NZ with itself but assuming they had taken a different approach 

 

in that case you will need lots more than just covid deaths obviously excess deaths future potential excess deaths economic affects etc etc etc and it is possible (not saying it is the case) that it could emerge that a different strategy (allowing for the key characteristics of NZ) may have got it even more righter 😃

 

hence they may not have got it “right”

[Unknown user]

7 minutes ago, MoncurMacdonaldMercer said:

 

if you want to compare between countries you need to normalise the key differences - understandably you’ve been unable to do that

 

another comparison which could be possible is comparing NZ with itself but assuming they had taken a different approach 

 

in that case you will need lots more than just covid deaths obviously excess deaths future potential excess deaths economic affects etc etc etc and it is possible (not saying it is the case) that it could emerge that a different strategy (allowing for the key characteristics of NZ) may have got it even more righter 😃

 

hence they may not have got it “right”

 

A government's first responsibility is to the lives of it's citizens, and in that NZ's approach has been an unquestionable success, or at least part of it has.

 

The fact that they're changing approach to deal with the changed picture is surely also to be applauded.

I hope they're able to get their people vaccinated quickly enough

[Gizmo]

2 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

NZ got it right, they kept their population alive

There's definitely a correlation between effective elimination lockdowns and inevitably, less incentive on the populace to vaccinate. With much less community immunity, they need to speed up vaccination to outpace the dominant variant. It's a pity they couldn't hold that barrier a little longer to be able to deploy refreshed vaccines that may be tailored to be more efficacious against Delta. 

I hope they manage it and it doesn't turn out that countries who pursued a hard elimination strategy were just delaying an inevitable wave. They are currently at 40% vaccinated according to google.

   



 

[Footballfirst]

4 minutes ago, Gizmo said:

I hope they manage it and it doesn't turn out that countries who pursued a hard elimination strategy were just delaying an inevitable wave. They are currently at 40% vaccinated according to google.

From the latest NY Times figures:

New Zealand is currently at 68%/42% 1st/2nd dose of the whole population

 

The UK figures are normally expressed domestically as percentages of adults, but the like for like whole population figures are 73%/67%  (Scotland is 77%/70%)

[MoncurMacdonaldMercer]

31 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

A government's first responsibility is to the lives of it's citizens, and in that NZ's approach has been an unquestionable success, or at least part of it has.

 

The fact that they're changing approach to deal with the changed picture is surely also to be applauded.

I hope they're able to get their people vaccinated quickly enough

 

you've been unable to normalise key differences between countries so what about the comparison of NZ with itself under a different approach which may or may not have for example greatly mitigated against the challenges they are now facing ? (fully predicted by many scientists btw so it’s not really a changed picture)

 

definite if marginal progress from your “it’s pretty obvious ..,” supporting evidence from earlier 

[XB52]

We surely to God can't be arguing over whether NZ did better than the uk can we???? Total absolute madness

[JudyJudyJudy]

34 minutes ago, jonesy said:

A government's first responsibility is to get the feck out the lives of its citizens, not attempt to put them under house arrest and restrict their hitherto taken for granted freedom of movement and assembly.

👍 

[MoncurMacdonaldMercer]

55 minutes ago, XB52 said:

We surely to God can't be arguing over whether NZ did better than the uk can we???? Total absolute madness

if you are referring to smithee and my exchange - no I don’t think we are arguing about that at all

 

if it’s something else you are referring to then fair enough

 

 

[Unknown user]

1 hour ago, XB52 said:

We surely to God can't be arguing over whether NZ did better than the uk can we???? Total absolute madness

 

Did NZ have the right approach?

Only 27 died in a worldwide pandemic, well played the Kiwis.

[MoncurMacdonaldMercer]

2 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

Did NZ have the right approach?

Only 27 died in a worldwide pandemic, well played the Kiwis.

27 covid deaths (presumably)  - the other deaths - potential future deaths - other factors economy etc - comparisons with a different approach as I mentioned above NZ actual approach vs NZ alternative approach - all these questions need answered to conclude they had the right approach (which of course they may have)

 

appreciate it’s a football forum where we’re all welcome to our opinions which can be backed by ‘evidence’ like it’s “pretty obvious” - I’m just trying to raise the level of the debate a bit - not working tho

 

[Unknown user]

1 minute ago, MoncurMacdonaldMercer said:

27 covid deaths (presumably)  - the other deaths - potential future deaths - other factors economy etc - comparisons with a different approach as I mentioned above NZ actual approach vs NZ alternative approach - all these questions need answered to conclude they had the right approach (which of course they may have)

 

appreciate it’s a football forum where we’re all welcome to our opinions which can be backed by ‘evidence’ like it’s “pretty obvious” - I’m just trying to raise the level of the debate a bit - not working tho

 

 

I've done everything but straight out tell you I'm not interested in discussing your point of view and I don't feel like justifying mine in great detail.

It's not that I don't understand, I just don't want to dance

[MoncurMacdonaldMercer]

4 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

I've done everything but straight out tell you I'm not interested in discussing your point of view and I don't feel like justifying mine in great detail.

It's not that I don't understand, I just don't want to dance

Earlier you were interested in  the complexities and ironically using the phrase ‘dance’ as once we opened up about a few of them you’ve danced around then -addressed not one of them

 

a simple task - which of course you are entitled not to partake in

 

it would raise the level of the debate considerably if you did but it’s obviously fine that you chose not to

 

👍

[Unknown user]

1 minute ago, MoncurMacdonaldMercer said:

Earlier you were interested in  the complexities and ironically using the phrase ‘dance’ as once we opened up about a few of them you’ve danced around then -addressed not one of them

 

a simple task - which of course you are entitled not to partake in

 

it would raise the level of the debate considerably if you did but it’s obviously fine that you chose not to

 

👍

 

I haven't danced round anything, I just don't care enough to get into why you think you're right and I don't care enough that you think I'm wrong.

[MoncurMacdonaldMercer]

26 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

I haven't danced round anything, I just don't care enough to get into why you think you're right and I don't care enough that you think I'm wrong.

 

again purely in the interests of raising the standard of the debate - point out any sentence where I’ve claimed to be right

 

youve made a statement (one which I’ve at no time have said was false in fact have agreed it may well be true) I’ve asked if you’ve considered a few things - umpteen posts later no answers to any of the discussion points

 

would have been easier if an earlier answer was “just because” or the like - wouldn’t have lowered the standard of the debate in any significant way and would have saved you a number of posts on something you don’t care enough about - although cared enough to keep replying and pointing out how you do understand etc 

[Enzo Chiefo]

5 hours ago, Smithee said:

 

NZ got it right, they kept their population alive

Drama Queen alert. "Kept their population alive"😂. What did we do, slaughter our population?? Get a grip.

[Footballfirst]

1 hour ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

Drama Queen alert. "Kept their population alive"😂. What did we do, slaughter our population?? Get a grip.

Drama queen? Have you resorted to looking in the mirror?

 

The outcome for New Zealand is little short of miraculous. Yes they have cut themselves off from other countries and lived in their own national bubble, but you cannot argue against what they have achieved by doing so.

 

MMM has questioned whether be taking a different approach might have led to a different outcome (good or bad) for NZ. 27 deaths is the answer.  It would be extremely difficult to have achieved a better result by doing things differently.

[A Boy Named Crow]

7 hours ago, Footballfirst said:

From the latest NY Times figures:

New Zealand is currently at 68%/42% 1st/2nd dose of the whole population

 

The UK figures are normally expressed domestically as percentages of adults, but the like for like whole population figures are 73%/67%  (Scotland is 77%/70%)

I can't believe the UK vaccination rates are so low.  All we've heard from the government is that they saved the day with a world beating vaccination toll out. 

According to some fool on here, Australia is on the brink of civil war...yet the vaccination rate in NSW is higher than the UK, nationally Australia's double dosed rate is growing all the time.  They're about to open the country back up again, all of this achieved with about 1% of the UK death rate. 

 

It beggars belief just how badly the governments in the UK, Europe and the US handled this.  There should be revolutions over this kind of thing,  people were just sacrificed either out of slavish devotion to "the economy", utter incompetence,  or (I suspect) criminal complacency. 

 

NZ set the gold standard, the state premiers in Australia bounced the prime minister here into doing the right thing, those two countries showed what can be done.  So many of the deaths in the UK were just unnecessary,  it's heartbreaking. 

 

[MoncurMacdonaldMercer]

3 hours ago, Footballfirst said:

Drama queen? Have you resorted to looking in the mirror?

 

The outcome for New Zealand is little short of miraculous. Yes they have cut themselves off from other countries and lived in their own national bubble, but you cannot argue against what they have achieved by doing so.

 

MMM has questioned whether be taking a different approach might have led to a different outcome (good or bad) for NZ. 27 deaths is the answer.  It would be extremely difficult to have achieved a better result by doing things differently.

 

thats 27 covid deaths and at the moment - no-ones likely to dispute that on that one-dimensional metric it is very good

 

what if say Singapore turned out to be a more valid comparison to NZ (don’t know if it is - just using it as an example) - even taking the one-dimensional measure of covid deaths there might not be a great deal between them and a couple of outbreaks could swing that one-dimensional measure from where it is now - do we then say maybe nz should have tweaked their approach to be more like Singapore’s (assuming there are tweakabke differences)

 

all that said the key discussion point was the approach and unqualified comparisons - if all the people from nz were relocated to a different island eg uk and had lived a less isolated life in normal times how effective would that approach be versus the approach in NZ as it is with its vast geographical advantages (which they appeared to have used well)

 

similarly China - I don’t follow it that closely but wasn’t  their approach very successful too? that approach tho can’t be lifted and applied to a number of other countries for obvious reasons

 

the alternative was nz vs nz with a different approach - assuming there’s nothing lurking beyond those 27 deaths (not sure what excess deaths are or the likelihood of future year issues due to treatments being suspended etc) - all just discussion points some of which may become more or less relevant depending on how nz progresses as they open up

 

some Scientists for example have been throwing out the warnings regarding a flu outbreak - these things are unknowns particularly due to the populations being shielded from flu for the best part of however long - not impossible NZ could suffer more than others on that front due to their more extreme isolation

 

still early days to be declaring any approach as the optimum

 

 

 

 

 

[jambo89]

2 hours ago, MoncurMacdonaldMercer said:

 

thats 27 covid deaths and at the moment - no-ones likely to dispute that on that one-dimensional metric it is very good

 

what if say Singapore turned out to be a more valid comparison to NZ (don’t know if it is - just using it as an example) - even taking the one-dimensional measure of covid deaths there might not be a great deal between them and a couple of outbreaks could swing that one-dimensional measure from where it is now - do we then say maybe nz should have tweaked their approach to be more like Singapore’s (assuming there are tweakabke differences)

 

all that said the key discussion point was the approach and unqualified comparisons - if all the people from nz were relocated to a different island eg uk and had lived a less isolated life in normal times how effective would that approach be versus the approach in NZ as it is with its vast geographical advantages (which they appeared to have used well)

 

similarly China - I don’t follow it that closely but wasn’t  their approach very successful too? that approach tho can’t be lifted and applied to a number of other countries for obvious reasons

 

the alternative was nz vs nz with a different approach - assuming there’s nothing lurking beyond those 27 deaths (not sure what excess deaths are or the likelihood of future year issues due to treatments being suspended etc) - all just discussion points some of which may become more or less relevant depending on how nz progresses as they open up

 

some Scientists for example have been throwing out the warnings regarding a flu outbreak - these things are unknowns particularly due to the populations being shielded from flu for the best part of however long - not impossible NZ could suffer more than others on that front due to their more extreme isolation

 

still early days to be declaring any approach as the optimum

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is the ultimate and only measure of succes when discussing dealing with the Covid pandemic. To argue Covid / Excess deaths Should not be used as a measure of success is mental tbh.

[Enzo Chiefo]

2 hours ago, MoncurMacdonaldMercer said:

 

thats 27 covid deaths and at the moment - no-ones likely to dispute that on that one-dimensional metric it is very good

 

what if say Singapore turned out to be a more valid comparison to NZ (don’t know if it is - just using it as an example) - even taking the one-dimensional measure of covid deaths there might not be a great deal between them and a couple of outbreaks could swing that one-dimensional measure from where it is now - do we then say maybe nz should have tweaked their approach to be more like Singapore’s (assuming there are tweakabke differences)

 

all that said the key discussion point was the approach and unqualified comparisons - if all the people from nz were relocated to a different island eg uk and had lived a less isolated life in normal times how effective would that approach be versus the approach in NZ as it is with its vast geographical advantages (which they appeared to have used well)

 

similarly China - I don’t follow it that closely but wasn’t  their approach very successful too? that approach tho can’t be lifted and applied to a number of other countries for obvious reasons

 

the alternative was nz vs nz with a different approach - assuming there’s nothing lurking beyond those 27 deaths (not sure what excess deaths are or the likelihood of future year issues due to treatments being suspended etc) - all just discussion points some of which may become more or less relevant depending on how nz progresses as they open up

 

some Scientists for example have been throwing out the warnings regarding a flu outbreak - these things are unknowns particularly due to the populations being shielded from flu for the best part of however long - not impossible NZ could suffer more than others on that front due to their more extreme isolation

 

still early days to be declaring any approach as the optimum

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, I agree but it's the "kept their population alive" statement that, like all things Covid stats is disingenuous. 

"Their" population were dying of other causes just as ours were.  How many in NZ died as a result of lockdown, loneliness, isolation etc etc?

No-one every asks elderly people whether they wanted to be "kept alive" or whether they wanted to live their lives and take their chances. Any that I spoke to were very much in favour of the latter.

The UK death rate, to contextualise the red-top headline figures, in 2020 was lower than it was right through the 1990s and up to 2003. 

Not defending the UK, or any other country's approach, but adding a dose of context which was sadly missing from an 18 month campaign of , in many ways, sensationalism and scaremongering. 

[The Mighty Thor]

There is not a single metric by which the UKs handling of the pandemic could be deemed a success.

Not one.

[Unknown user]

40 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

Yes, I agree but it's the "kept their population alive" statement that, like all things Covid stats is disingenuous. 

"Their" population were dying of other causes just as ours were.  How many in NZ died as a result of lockdown, loneliness, isolation etc etc?

No-one every asks elderly people whether they wanted to be "kept alive" or whether they wanted to live their lives and take their chances. Any that I spoke to were very much in favour of the latter.

The UK death rate, to contextualise the red-top headline figures, in 2020 was lower than it was right through the 1990s and up to 2003. 

Not defending the UK, or any other country's approach, but adding a dose of context which was sadly missing from an 18 month campaign of , in many ways, sensationalism and scaremongering. 

 

It's not at all disingenuous, it's the headline figure, the main event, the number that every country's been talking about for the last year and a half.

 

I do hope you genuinely add some context to your 18 month campaign of sensationalism and scaremongering, but I have my doubts.

[Savage Vince]

6 hours ago, A Boy Named Crow said:

I can't believe the UK vaccination rates are so low.  All we've heard from the government is that they saved the day with a world beating vaccination toll out. 

 

 

That line was rolled out on this thread too. Right up until Scotland 'caught up' with England. And then Europe. And then all the other places. Not its not mentioned much at all really. 

[The Mighty Thor]

50 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

 

The UK death rate, to contextualise the red-top headline figures, in 2020 was lower than it was right through the 1990s and up to 2003. 

Not defending the UK, or any other country's approach, but adding a dose of context which was sadly missing from an 18 month campaign of , in many ways, sensationalism and scaremongering. 

128,279 excess deaths since March 2020.

 

167 deaths from/with Covid yesterday.

 

NZ 27 deaths since March 2020. 

 

That's pretty sensational. 

[Unknown user]

9 hours ago, MoncurMacdonaldMercer said:

 

again purely in the interests of raising the standard of the debate - point out any sentence where I’ve claimed to be right

 

youve made a statement (one which I’ve at no time have said was false in fact have agreed it may well be true) I’ve asked if you’ve considered a few things - umpteen posts later no answers to any of the discussion points

 

would have been easier if an earlier answer was “just because” or the like - wouldn’t have lowered the standard of the debate in any significant way and would have saved you a number of posts on something you don’t care enough about - although cared enough to keep replying and pointing out how you do understand etc 

 

I think you misunderstand.

I can't be arsed getting into it with you because debating your view isn't interesting to me.

[XB52]

4 hours ago, MoncurMacdonaldMercer said:

 

thats 27 covid deaths and at the moment - no-ones likely to dispute that on that one-dimensional metric it is very good

 

what if say Singapore turned out to be a more valid comparison to NZ (don’t know if it is - just using it as an example) - even taking the one-dimensional measure of covid deaths there might not be a great deal between them and a couple of outbreaks could swing that one-dimensional measure from where it is now - do we then say maybe nz should have tweaked their approach to be more like Singapore’s (assuming there are tweakabke differences)

 

all that said the key discussion point was the approach and unqualified comparisons - if all the people from nz were relocated to a different island eg uk and had lived a less isolated life in normal times how effective would that approach be versus the approach in NZ as it is with its vast geographical advantages (which they appeared to have used well)

 

similarly China - I don’t follow it that closely but wasn’t  their approach very successful too? that approach tho can’t be lifted and applied to a number of other countries for obvious reasons

 

the alternative was nz vs nz with a different approach - assuming there’s nothing lurking beyond those 27 deaths (not sure what excess deaths are or the likelihood of future year issues due to treatments being suspended etc) - all just discussion points some of which may become more or less relevant depending on how nz progresses as they open up

 

some Scientists for example have been throwing out the warnings regarding a flu outbreak - these things are unknowns particularly due to the populations being shielded from flu for the best part of however long - not impossible NZ could suffer more than others on that front due to their more extreme isolation

 

still early days to be declaring any approach as the optimum

 

 

 

 

 

What a pile of pretentious claptrap. Look at me, I know some big words😂😂

[XB52]

1 hour ago, Smithee said:

 

It's not at all disingenuous, it's the headline figure, the main event, the number that every country's been talking about for the last year and a half.

 

I do hope you genuinely add some context to your 18 month campaign of sensationalism and scaremongering, but I have my doubts.

You don't get it. Headline figures only count when they show Scotland doing poorly compared to England or the UK doing better than Johnny foreigner 

[Governor Tarkin]

14 hours ago, Smithee said:

 

A government's first responsibility is to the lives of it's citizens.

 

 

1 hour ago, The Mighty Thor said:

There is not a single metric by which the UKs handling of the pandemic could be deemed a success.

Not one.

 

Unless that metric was "Amount of public cash syphoned of to your mates and corporate paymasters".

 

A resounding successs, I'd say.

[Boab]

1 hour ago, The Mighty Thor said:

There is not a single metric by which the UKs handling of the pandemic could be deemed a success.

Not one.

Incredible incompetence across the board.

 

[Taffin]

Vanuatu is the winner for me. 1 death. NZ could learn a lot from that.

[Unknown user]

2 minutes ago, Taffin said:

Vanuatu is the winner for me. 1 death. NZ could learn a lot from that.

Yes, but did anyone ask them if they wanted to live?

[Taffin]

2 minutes ago, Smithee said:

Yes, but did anyone ask them if they wanted to live?

 

Not sure, but for NZ to have 27x as many deaths as an another island in proximity to it suggests they got something very wrong.

[Unknown user]

Just now, Taffin said:

 

Not sure, but for NZ to have 27x as many deaths as an another island in proximity to it suggests they got something very wrong.

 

1 in 300k in Vanuatu, 1 in 185k in New Zealand.

 

I'm pretty sure Africa's closer to the UK than Vanuatu is to NZ by the way!

[Taffin]

10 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

1 in 300k in Vanuatu, 1 in 185k in New Zealand.

 

I'm pretty sure Africa's closer to the UK than Vanuatu is to NZ by the way!

 

Oh, I don't look at things like per 100,000...only the death figure. 

 

I'm pretty sure it isn't (cba looking it up) but putting that to the side, an island is an island. New Zealand could have done what Vanuatu did.

 

edit: just read your post properly. Yes Africa is closer to the UK than Vanuatu is to NZ...but what's the UK got to do with it?

Edited October 6, 2021 by Taffin

[Unknown user]

Just now, Taffin said:

 

Oh, I don't look at things like per 100,000...only the death figure. 

 

I'm pretty sure it isn't (cba looking it up) but putting that to the side, an island is an island. New Zealand could have done what Vanuatu did.

 

You reckon?

[JudyJudyJudy]

11 hours ago, MoncurMacdonaldMercer said:

27 covid deaths (presumably)  - the other deaths - potential future deaths - other factors economy etc - comparisons with a different approach as I mentioned above NZ actual approach vs NZ alternative approach - all these questions need answered to conclude they had the right approach (which of course they may have)

 

appreciate it’s a football forum where we’re all welcome to our opinions which can be backed by ‘evidence’ like it’s “pretty obvious” - I’m just trying to raise the level of the debate a bit - not working tho

 

Yes maybe more people lived but there weren’t living . 

8 hours ago, A Boy Named Crow said:

I can't believe the UK vaccination rates are so low.  All we've heard from the government is that they saved the day with a world beating vaccination toll out. 

According to some fool on here, Australia is on the brink of civil war...yet the vaccination rate in NSW is higher than the UK, nationally Australia's double dosed rate is growing all the time.  They're about to open the country back up again, all of this achieved with about 1% of the UK death rate. 

 

It beggars belief just how badly the governments in the UK, Europe and the US handled this.  There should be revolutions over this kind of thing,  people were just sacrificed either out of slavish devotion to "the economy", utter incompetence,  or (I suspect) criminal complacency. 

 

NZ set the gold standard, the state premiers in Australia bounced the prime minister here into doing the right thing, those two countries showed what can be done.  So many of the deaths in the UK were just unnecessary,  it's heartbreaking. 

 

No one was sacrificed . Stop being a conspiracy theorist  . There were catastrophic errors which weren’t deliberate , which is worse really . 

2 hours ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

Yes, I agree but it's the "kept their population alive" statement that, like all things Covid stats is disingenuous. 

"Their" population were dying of other causes just as ours were.  How many in NZ died as a result of lockdown, loneliness, isolation etc etc?

No-one every asks elderly people whether they wanted to be "kept alive" or whether they wanted to live their lives and take their chances. Any that I spoke to were very much in favour of the latter.

The UK death rate, to contextualise the red-top headline figures, in 2020 was lower than it was right through the 1990s and up to 2003. 

Not defending the UK, or any other country's approach, but adding a dose of context which was sadly missing from an 18 month campaign of , in many ways, sensationalism and scaremongering. 

Yes as I said they lived through it but we’re they really living ? Nope . The long term damage is still to be felt 

 

 

[Taffin]

1 minute ago, Smithee said:

 

You reckon?

 

See my edit, where did the UK come from? I'm merely saying Vanuatu are the best as they have 1 death and in comparison NZ is rubbish and needs to take a look at itself.

 

The UK is a whole different kettle of fish...that I didn't mention.

[JudyJudyJudy]

2 hours ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

Yes, I agree but it's the "kept their population alive" statement that, like all things Covid stats is disingenuous. 

"Their" population were dying of other causes just as ours were.  How many in NZ died as a result of lockdown, loneliness, isolation etc etc?

No-one every asks elderly people whether they wanted to be "kept alive" or whether they wanted to live their lives and take their chances. Any that I spoke to were very much in favour of the latter.

The UK death rate, to contextualise the red-top headline figures, in 2020 was lower than it was right through the 1990s and up to 2003. 

Not defending the UK, or any other country's approach, but adding a dose of context which was sadly missing from an 18 month campaign of , in many ways, sensationalism and scaremongering. 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/business-54186359.amp

[Victorian]

Oh good.  Now we've got people arbitrarily deciding that those who remain living haven't really been living,  again by some mysterious,   arbitrary measure.  

[MoncurMacdonaldMercer]

1 hour ago, Smithee said:

 

I think you misunderstand.

I can't be arsed getting into it with you because debating your view isn't interesting to me.

Obviously gutted to hear that mate - coincidentally ur interest seemed to wane when your deflection had been thoroughly exposed and you had no where else to go other than - I’m not playing anymore - which is almost what you said

 

I notice in recent post when taffin quoted a country with a better covid deaths figure you’ve added some context rather than just go with the raw data - that’s a step in the right direction in rising the quality of the debate so our exchange has not been totally fruitless 😃

[Ray Gin]

People in New Zealand not living: 

 

 

[The Mighty Thor]

2 minutes ago, Victorian said:

Oh good.  Now we've got people arbitrarily deciding that those who remain living haven't really been living,  again by some mysterious,   arbitrary measure.  

Well the 130,000 or so certainly aren't living now. 

 

But they would have died anyway wibble