Coronavirus Super Thread ( merged )

[Nucky Thompson]

7 minutes ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

No control over borders though, surprising how that fact is missed by so many...

I thought Sturgeon effectively closed the border with England and increased police patrols at the border points.

[Taffin]

17 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Care homes and Hospitals were not caught out like they were in March/April 2020. They weren't decanting already infected, high risk individuals all over the place.

Schools were off from Dec and workplaces were by and large empty as everyone either worked from home or was on the teat of the Boris bucks. 

The second wave was most definitely community transmission at a time when the community was not supposed to be mixing and mingling. 

 

I think you're drastically under estimating the amount of spread that was happening in schools in the run up to December, and the amount of people who were still working, at their workplace with varying success of being Covid secure as well as under estimating the spread in hospitals and care homes but let's agree to disagree. 👍👍

[Byyy The Light]

1 hour ago, scott herbertson said:

Better figures today - positivity down, hospitalisation and ICU as well, albeit marginally

 

 

On emergency planning, having been involved in it, these exercises usually founder on the resourcing. To give an example planning for floods usually comes up with the need for millions of sandbags. Spending a huge amount of sandbags and storing them or securing the supply is very hard to justify when there is not enough money to spend on school repairs or social workers dealing with children and young people, or repairing potholes, even. So the reports don't get fully acted on.

 

Would you have been happy if three years ago Edinburgh slashed its road repairs budget to stock upon PPE 'just in case' there was a pandemic?

 

These are not easy decisions because there just isn't enough money to cover the possibilities and needs.

 

If you want to blame somebody or a policy a good starting point would be our failure as a society to accept that a bigger proportion of our income needs to go on taxes to fund essential services.

 

 

 

 

 

Does it have to be as black and white as this?  We don't need to stock pile things, we just simply need to have the facility in place to hit the big red panic button when it's needed and set the wheels in motion.  If that means a few weeks of lockdown until the plan kicks in then so be it.

 

We had nonsense like Dyson designing ventilators, millions going to some Spanish guy who could get PPE from China because the NHS couldn't and all kinds of ridiculous scenarios playing out.  The wrong PPE arriving.  That's before we even talk about track and trace.  So many billions completely wasted and peed against the wall.

 

There's just no excuse for being so ridiculously under prepared for something like this. 

 

 

 

 

[Taffin]

Just now, Nucky Thompson said:

I thought Sturgeon effectively closed the border with England and increased police patrols at the border points.

 

I asked that yesterday...turns out it was a load of bollocks and it was just unenforced talk. Much like Boris gets (rightfully) slated for.

[JudyJudyJudy]

44 minutes ago, Taffin said:

 

Who are they not maintaining social distance from if there's only one of them?

 

To break the distancing rules, there must at least two people...and both of them will have broken that rule.

Some are on a mad one today it seems . No use trying to debate with them . Most scientists agreed that a person had to be in the company of an infected person for 15 minutes or so to get a viral load which would make them ill . The nonsense about catching it walking passed someone is just that . Nonsense . But it provides the scare factor , Yet again . 

[redjambo]

14 minutes ago, Byyy The Light said:

 

There's just no excuse for being so ridiculously under prepared for something like this. 

 

 

My view too.

[MoncurMacdonaldMercer]

3 hours ago, The Mighty Thor said:

I don't disagree with that.

 

The selfish haven't caused all the deaths, absolutely not. What they have done without doubt is prolong and exacerbate the situation. 

 

I'd argue that the selfish people are not just the general public but those with vested interests in the industry that has grown up around the pandemic, who have most definitely exacerbated and prolonged the whole thing.

 

last paragraph is a great point

 

it can also be extended beyond covid - Jonesy (where is jonesy) quoted death figures based on environmental and air pollution a few hundred pages back which assuming they were appropriate (every confidence in jonesy  ) were huge numbers

 

that pollution on the back of companies most of us work for, are consumers of, invest in, have our pension funds invested in, causing lots and lots of death and misery (not deliberately obviously) and most likely the vast majority being the poorest and most vulnerable in the worlds society - that’s one of the issues of trying to pin societal issues on wee johnnys illegal indoor barbecue etc - start sifting through folks lives there won’t be many without some blood on their hands (realise it wasn’t you who used that particular phrase)

[Enzo Chiefo]

7 minutes ago, Taffin said:

 

Who are they not maintaining social distance from if there's only one of them?

 

To break the distancing rules, there must at least two people...and both of them will have broken that rule.

Yip. The idea that not following govt diktats to the letter is responsible for any significant outbreak, is for the birds. It assumes that there is logic behind a lot of the micromanagement. There is not.

Most people empowered themselves to take sensible precautions in order to avoid catching Covid. Washing hands, popping a mask on in the supermarket etc. 

But i certainly didn't follow the early rules about only going out for 30 mins, essential purposes etc. 

[Enzo Chiefo]

46 minutes ago, Ray Gin said:

 

Anyone they come into contact with. Could be in the shops, on public transport, in a pub, wherever. It only takes one person to move into somebody else's personal space without consent to break the rule.

 

"Moving into someone else's personal space without consent". 🤣 Is that what this country has come to? Worrying about pish like that.

[Nucky Thompson]

2 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

"Moving into someone else's personal space without consent". 🤣 Is that what this country has come to? Worrying about pish like that.

Exactly. Excuse me, can I come into your personal space 

[MoncurMacdonaldMercer]

3 hours ago, Gizmo said:

 . 🙄

 

Being an island is a huge advantage to controlling borders so, no, its NOT irrelevant. But at least someone agrees we can lock up our borders and enforce a lockdown properly. 

Why we didn't and ended up with far worse...

 

 

i think most people understand that borders can be locked its whether it can be done successfully to achieve the proposed aim which requires slightly deeper thinking

 

you previously referenced Australia and New Zealand as islands as part of the discussion but in this situation that’s where the fundamental similarity ends with UK no?

 

Like queen of the south and Bayern Munich are both football clubs but beyond that not very similar at all

[Pasquale for King]

2 hours ago, **** the SPFL said:

Boab, We possibly should have been did the SG not carry out an exercise a few years ago directed at what would happen in a pandemic and how to tackle or am i just a slavering bawbag.

The U.K. did that too, difference being  they control the borders. 

[Pasquale for King]

1 minute ago, MoncurMacdonaldMercer said:

 

i think most people understand that borders can be locked its whether it can be done successfully to achieve the proposed aim which requires slightly deeper thinking

 

you previously referenced Australia and New Zealand as islands as part of the discussion but in this situation that’s where the fundamental similarity ends with UK no?

 

Like queen of the south and Bayern Munich are both football clubs but beyond that not very similar at all

You think it’s easier to lock Australian borders than the U.K.?

NZ is pretty similar in size and structure, they've had TWENTY SIX DEATHS?!?!

[Pasquale for King]

45 minutes ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

No control over borders though, surprising how that fact is missed by so many...

They just ignore it, it doesn’t fit their agenda, they’ve been told on numerous occasions. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

26 minutes ago, MoncurMacdonaldMercer said:

 

last paragraph is a great point

 

it can also be extended beyond covid - Jonesy (where is jonesy) quoted death figures based on environmental and air pollution a few hundred pages back which assuming they were appropriate (every confidence in jonesy  ) were huge numbers

 

that pollution on the back of companies most of us work for, are consumers of, invest in, have our pension funds invested in, causing lots and lots of death and misery (not deliberately obviously) and most likely the vast majority being the poorest and most vulnerable in the worlds society - that’s one of the issues of trying to pin societal issues on wee johnnys illegal indoor barbecue etc - start sifting through folks lives there won’t be many without some blood on their hands (realise it wasn’t you who used that particular phrase)

Jonesy probably seek to back teeth of all this as it’s ground hog day every day on this thread . Today has been particularly full of blame , condemnation and mortality . Never a good mix 

25 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

Yip. The idea that not following govt diktats to the letter is responsible for any significant outbreak, is for the birds. It assumes that there is logic behind a lot of the micromanagement. There is not.

Most people empowered themselves to take sensible precautions in order to avoid catching Covid. Washing hands, popping a mask on in the supermarket etc. 

But i certainly didn't follow the early rules about only going out for 30 mins, essential purposes etc. 

👍

21 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

"Moving into someone else's personal space without consent". 🤣 Is that what this country has come to? Worrying about pish like that.

I cringed when I read it but couldn’t be bothered commenting on it really . The world has truly gone mad  😡 

Edited June 16, 2021 by JamesM48

[Konrad von Carstein]

10 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

They just ignore it, it doesn’t fit their agenda, they’ve been told on numerous occasions. 

Yes, but, the fish (cringe) and the krankies (cringe more) bad... That's all that matters to them...

[Ray Gin]

No surprise to see the bloody handed don't give any thought to concepts like consent. 

[ri Alban]

4 hours ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Holyrood has had complete control over the NHS and the handling of the coronavirus.

No it doesn't. 

 

 

[ri Alban]

59 minutes ago, Nucky Thompson said:

I thought Sturgeon effectively closed the border with England and increased police patrols at the border points.

Yet you crossed over the border a number of times. You probably fecked up Edinburgh with the various variants. 

[Pasquale for King]

20 minutes ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

Yes, but, the fish (cringe) and the krankies (cringe more) bad... That's all that matters to them...

Indeed, all a bit misogynistic to be honest. 

Edited June 16, 2021 by Pasquale for King

[MoncurMacdonaldMercer]

23 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

You think it’s easier to lock Australian borders than the U.K.?

NZ is pretty similar in size and structure, they've had TWENTY SIX DEATHS?!?!

 

the UK geographically and hence how it interacts on a daily basis albeit in normal times is like a suburb of Europe

 

what is the closest territories to NZ or Australia which from a covid perspective had a major problem with major outbreaks  and/or didn’t themselves totally (within reason) close borders

 

beyond the island thing - presumably when you compare NZ to UK you’ve taken into account the many many potential risk factors like age, underlying health, gender proportions, population density, the bio-security of institutions like care homes, hospitals etc, previous exposure to corona viruses and any inherent immunity, vitamin D levels etc etc

 

should be able to start with one figure, adjust for all those potential differences (maybe some will have an adjustment of zero) and find a net-adjusted difference - that been taken into account in you “pretty similar” assertion?

 

 

 

[Seymour M Hersh]

1 hour ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

No control over borders though, surprising how that fact is missed by so many...

 

So why did she keep threatening to close the border with Englandshire? 

[Nucky Thompson]

17 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Yet you crossed over the border a number of times. You probably fecked up Edinburgh with the various variants. 

I only crossed the border once between 31st October and 12th April and only when they opened a travel window in December.

That was to do essential maintenance on my holiday home

[Nucky Thompson]

1 minute ago, Lord BJ said:

Australia and NZ will be getting their imported goods, in the main, by containers on big ****ing tankers. Our imported good are via lorries. 
 

It’s undoubtably much easier for aus and NZ to lockdown borders.  

The UK is linked to Europe by a tunnel and short ferry crossings, with thousands of HGV's coming every day.

 

Remember the chaos when France shut the border for 48 hours 

 

Anyone comparing us to Australia and NZ is clearly at it

[JudyJudyJudy]

10 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

So why did she keep threatening to close the border with Englandshire? 

Flexing her muscles ? Which was rather silly as surely you only flex your muscles if u can back it up with action ? If you can’t it’s then called political grand standing 

[MoncurMacdonaldMercer]

5 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

Australia and NZ will be getting their imported goods, in the main, by containers on big ****ing tankers. Our imported good are via lorries. 
 

It’s undoubtably much easier for aus and NZ to lockdown borders. That said the U.K. govt could have and should have done a lot more on that front. 

 

that just one of many reasons

 

anyone with any experience of analysing data who was presented with such different results from so-called similar entities would be very sceptical of the assertion of similarity based on the numbers alone and expect to find a number of fundamental differences which of course there are

 

management will account for some variance maybe even 50% or something maybe more but not the crazy differences supposedly coming from similar entities

 

again like comparing the trophy haul of two football clubs Bayern Munich and queen of the south and concluding Bayern just had better managers

 

[scott herbertson]

1 hour ago, Byyy The Light said:

 

Does it have to be as black and white as this?  We don't need to stock pile things, we just simply need to have the facility in place to hit the big red panic button when it's needed and set the wheels in motion.  If that means a few weeks of lockdown until the plan kicks in then so be it.

 

We had nonsense like Dyson designing ventilators, millions going to some Spanish guy who could get PPE from China because the NHS couldn't and all kinds of ridiculous scenarios playing out.  The wrong PPE arriving.  That's before we even talk about track and trace.  So many billions completely wasted and peed against the wall.

 

There's just no excuse for being so ridiculously under prepared for something like this. 

 

 

 

 

 

It isn't black and white exactly but it's not easy to 'hit the panic button' if you haven't got the equipment to respond and you won't have the equipment to respond if you don't spend  a great deal of money on the chance that the worst might happen. Governments and councils with budgets under severe pressure tend to put those sort of spending choices down the priority order and the more immediate, known, needs higher up . So we don't stockpile sandbags, ppe, additional cctv cameras, auxiliary police and health workers etc. and we don't pay for additional staff training etc etc. 

 

What we should at least do is pay in effect insurance by securing potential supplies, like the UK govt did in effect with the vaccines. eg having a contract that guarantees x number of sandbags, and paying an annual premium for that facility. But public services are reluctant to do even that as they can be accused of wasting money when there are pressing immediate  needs

[scott herbertson]

2 hours ago, redjambo said:

 

Just one wee purely technical note is that given that the positivity figure is so variable during the week, it's better to look at it from a 7-day perspective, imo. The 7-day weighted average was actually up today by a point from 4.0 to 4.1 due to today's figure of 3.4 being higher than the 3.0 from a week ago.

 

 

ach - failed on a technicality again

 

https://boingboing.net/2020/02/18/brave-try-at-world-sparkler-re.html

[Unknown user]

1 hour ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

No control over borders though, surprising how that fact is missed by so many...

Especially when it gets mentioned so often. How can that be?

[Nucky Thompson]

2 minutes ago, jonesy said:

I'm sure you're a lovely chap, Nucky, but I'm not into that sort of thing.

[Unknown user]

3 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Glad to see you still posting after your masked weekend in Falkirk, Smiffy.  

 

I can breathe easy now.

Me too 😁

[Taffin]

15 minutes ago, Smithee said:

Especially when it gets mentioned so often. How can that be?

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/dec/19/strict-christmas-travel-ban-between-scotland-and-rest-of-uk-announced

 

Did Boris implement this then?

[Enzo Chiefo]

How many times do people have to be told about the Border? FFS, we're not some antipodean island, if it was possible to continue to survive economically,  avoid rendering thousands of UK citizens stateless AND guarantee that we could keep an airborne virus out of the country then it would have been done.  There was no scientific clamour to close the border either.

[MoncurMacdonaldMercer]

10 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Just logged back in after three blissful disconnected, internet-free days, MMM. One look at the standard of 'debate' on this thread and think I may just blacklist this site from my browser (probably to the relief of some).

 

Can't remember where the figures were quoted - I think it was The Guardian - but yes, pollution, a completely controllable and instantly stoppable cause of death accounts for a shameful number of deaths around the world each year. However, implementing the changes - effectively putting Extinction Rebellion in charge of things - goes far beyond what the average punter would accept as modifications to their lifestyle. The kicker is that doing so would create a more liveable environment for our children and future generations. The same punters are, however, able to accept lifestyle modifications which have saved the lives of the older generations while simultaneously done harm to those who are just starting out in adulthood (among others). It's all about what's palatable or marketable to the proles, really.

 

was slightly concerned you had run out of truth bullets - glad to see you haven’t

 

 

[The Real Maroonblood]

28 minutes ago, Smithee said:

Especially when it gets mentioned so often. How can that be?

[redjambo]

46 minutes ago, scott herbertson said:

 

 

ach - failed on a technicality again

 

https://boingboing.net/2020/02/18/brave-try-at-world-sparkler-re.html

 

My bad.

[MoncurMacdonaldMercer]

28 minutes ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

 

see Taffin’s post just a few above

 

 

[The Real Maroonblood]

1 minute ago, MoncurMacdonaldMercer said:

 

see Taffin’s post just a few above

 

 

👍

[Unknown user]

1 hour ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

How many times do people have to be told about the Border? FFS, we're not some antipodean island, if it was possible to continue to survive economically,  avoid rendering thousands of UK citizens stateless AND guarantee that we could keep an airborne virus out of the country then it would have been done.  There was no scientific clamour to close the border either.

Are you still pretending it means stopping trade and bringing food in and that?

[Enzo Chiefo]

1 minute ago, Smithee said:

Are you still pretending it means stopping trade and bringing food in and that?

It means stopping and testing lorry drivers at the ports. Were you watching when the EU started playing silly games in January and the tailbacks that ensued?? It's not possible to "close" the border. It's a soundbite.

[Unknown user]

1 hour ago, Taffin said:

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/dec/19/strict-christmas-travel-ban-between-scotland-and-rest-of-uk-announced

 

Did Boris implement this then?

 

I'm not sure how restricting travel over Christmas is related to closing the UK border at the start of the pandemic

[Unknown user]

2 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

It means stopping and testing lorry drivers at the ports. Were you watching when the EU started playing silly games in January and the tailbacks that ensued?? It's not possible to "close" the border. It's a soundbite.

 

No, it means stopping international travellers.

[Taffin]

14 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

I'm not sure how restricting travel over Christmas is related to closing the UK border at the start of the pandemic

 

So does she, or does she not control her borders? Your making out like she doesn't, yet she controlled it at Christmas.

 

If she really wanted she could have closed all airports in Scotland and shut the border from England, no?

 

Or was Christmas a bluff where actually she never had the power to do that but nobody challenged it?

Edited June 16, 2021 by Taffin

[Unknown user]

1 minute ago, Taffin said:

 

So does she, or does she not control her borders? Your making out like she doesn't, yet she controlled it at Christmas.

 

If she really wanted she could have closed all airports in Scotland and shut the border from England, no?

 

She doesn't control the UK border, no

[Brighton Jambo]

Just now, Taffin said:

 

So does she, or does she not control her borders? Your making out like she doesn't, yet she controlled it at Christmas.

 

If she really wanted she could have closed all airports in Scotland and shut the border from England, no?

Of course she could be it doesn’t fit the narrative.  Far easier to blame everyone else.

 

Every single arrival in Scotland since last March from abroad could have been made to quarantine in a hotel as that was in her powers to implement.

 

As you rightly said she also managed to control the border at Xmas.  
 

Boris should have done much more and so should she.  

[Taffin]

2 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

She doesn't control the UK border, no

 

I didn't say she did. But she can close the Scottish airports and she can stop people coming from England into Scotland. So what's the issue?

[Governor Tarkin]

1 hour ago, jonesy said:

It's all about what's palatable or marketable to the proles, really.

 

We need to stop pandering.

 

In the good old days we used to give the proles a rifle and a pith helmet and send them of to bring johnny foreigner to heel.

[Enzo Chiefo]

13 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

No, it means stopping international travellers.

Including lorry drivers from the continent? Those who were squealing about Brexit stopping essential medicines coming from Europe now appear to be advocating we pull up the drawbridge.  

Testing patients decanted into care homes would have been far more effective than worrying about unattainable border closures.

[Unknown user]

Just now, Enzo Chiefo said:

Including lorry drivers from the continent? Those who were squealing about Brexit stopping essential medicines coming from Europe now appear to be advocating we pull up the drawbridge.  

Testing patients decanted into care homes would have been far more effective than worrying about unattainable border closures.

No, Jesus

[Unknown user]

3 minutes ago, Taffin said:

 

I didn't say she did. But she can close the Scottish airports and she can stop people coming from England into Scotland. So what's the issue?

 

I'm not so sure she could do either actually. Airports aren't owned or controlled by the Scottish government and I'm pretty sure aviation is a reserved matter, border control certainly is. Closing the English border would have been a massive political statement which would surely have resulted in a massive reaction from Westminster, so I don't think she could have done that either.

 

But interesting, you don't think the UK border should have been closed to international travellers, saving many thousands of lives?