Coronavirus Super Thread ( merged )

[Governor Tarkin]

^^^^ PHM

[The Mighty Thor]

3 minutes ago, Boy Daniel said:

This enrages me no end. These barstewards still deny they have stuffed up.  What’s worse the mad Tory voters think they are doing a good job. 

I see nothing in the data which deviates my opinion that Boris Johnson is a ****

[Nucky Thompson]

3 minutes ago, Boy Daniel said:

This enrages me no end. These barstewards still deny they have stuffed up.  What’s worse the mad Tory voters think they are doing a good job. 

Just like the mad nats think Sturgeon is doing a good job.

 

[Enzo Chiefo]

24 minutes ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

After post after post from you for months now with an SNP bad vibe it would seem I'm not the only one wearing blinkers  

The main difference being though that I have said many times that both Sturgeon AND Johnson have made a roaring erse of handling the response. You and others seem to only apportion blame to Johnson.🙂

[Enzo Chiefo]

The UK govt now mandating care home staff to take a vaccine. 16 week window to get jabbed. Smart move. Get a jab or get another job!

[Konrad von Carstein]

4 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

The main difference being though that I have said many times that both Sturgeon AND Johnson have made a roaring erse of handling the response. You and others seem to only apportion blame to Johnson.🙂

Johnston controlled much of what Ms Sturgeon and Scot Gov could do...that being said there is fault all round.. . The VAST majority of which lands in Johnstons lap...

You have consistently been SNP bad...Dont try to kid a kidder.

Edited June 15, 2021 by Konrad von Carstein

[JimmyCant]

2 hours ago, Footballfirst said:

Given that there are no direct flights from India to Scotland, then it is highly likely that the variant came into Scotland via England. That could be on a connecting flight, by train, car etc.

 

Whatever route it took, the responsibility for policing arrivals into the UK should be at the port of entry.

It could just as easily come from any of the 3 mainland European hubs which connect to Scotland for intercontinental travel. Amsterdam Frankfurt Paris. 
 

Not that easy to stop people getting in who’s journey started in India if they are transiting through a hub, especially if they are British Citizens

[Enzo Chiefo]

39 minutes ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

Johnston controlled much of what Ms Sturgeon and Scot Gov could do...that being said there is fault all round.. . The VAST majority of which lands in Johnstons lap...

You have consistently been SNP bad...Dont try to kid a kidder.

Nonsense.  Sturgeon took a different approach at every turn and had the same outcomes. We don't even have a roadmap out of this mess in Scotland.  At least the public bodies in England are truly independent without being corrupted and pressured by the Govt, as is the case with Public Health Scotland. 

[Mikey1874]

A new development. Jab or no job. 

 

 

 

[JimmyCant]

6 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

Nonsense.  Sturgeon took a different approach at every turn and had the same outcomes. We don't even have a roadmap out of this mess in Scotland.  At least the public bodies in England are truly independent without being corrupted and pressured by the Govt, as is the case with Public Health Scotland. 

Public Health England is part of the Department of Health, a government department. They are therefore accountable to central government, albeit through the Department of Health.

 

Public Health Scotland are accountable direct to the SG

 

Neither body is ‘truly independent’ In fact neither of them have any level of independence when it comes to national health policy.

[Enzo Chiefo]

6 hours ago, JimmyCant said:

Public Health England is part of the Department of Health, a government department. They are therefore accountable to central government, albeit through the Department of Health.

 

Public Health Scotland are accountable direct to the SG

 

Neither body is ‘truly independent’ In fact neither of them have any level of independence when it comes to national health policy.

PHE is being replaced anyway but my point is around PHS and the revelation that one of it's main roles is to shield Govt ministers from criticism and having to rate any public statements they make, based on the risk to Govt reputation, likely press coverage.

  Which is why the botched report into Scotland's care home deaths will have to be superseded by a further investigation by a truly independent, UK wide organisation. 

[Ray Gin]

10 hours ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

Nonsense.  Sturgeon took a different approach at every turn and had the same outcomes. We don't even have a roadmap out of this mess in Scotland.  At least the public bodies in England are truly independent without being corrupted and pressured by the Govt, as is the case with Public Health Scotland. 

 

England outcomes = 3 nationwide lockdowns, 112,507 deaths (200 per 100k)

Scotland outcomes = 2 nationwide lockdowns, 7,683 deaths (141 per 100k)

 

 

 

[Enzo Chiefo]

26 minutes ago, Ray Gin said:

 

England outcomes = 3 nationwide lockdowns, 112,507 deaths (200 per 100k)

Scotland outcomes = 2 nationwide lockdowns, 7,683 deaths (141 per 100k)

 

 

 

England are far further ahead in coming out of lockdown.  Test events, club nights, capacity crowds and a lifting of all restrictions in 4 weeks.

We will be living under Sturgeon's stilleto heel, even in level 0.

You are comparing apples and pears with death rates tbh. Scotland is far less densely populated than England, a third of the land mass and a tenth of the population.  There are also different demographics and the fact that London is a global hub, to consider. 

[Ray Gin]

11 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

England are far further ahead in coming out of lockdown.  Test events, club nights, capacity crowds and a lifting of all restrictions in 4 weeks.

We will be living under Sturgeon's stilleto heel, even in level 0.

You are comparing apples and pears with death rates tbh. Scotland is far less densely populated than England, a third of the land mass and a tenth of the population.  There are also different demographics and the fact that London is a global hub, to consider. 

 

They've killed more people to get further down the line. Yay for them. 

[Enzo Chiefo]

17 minutes ago, Ray Gin said:

 

They've killed more people to get further down the line. Yay for them. 

Hyperbolic nonsense.  Covid seems to have unearthed an element of society who have been brainwashed by daily instructions and pronouncements. Unfortunately, people died before Covid and multiple times more have died since, with non-Covid causes. 

[JimmyCant]

9 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

Hyperbolic nonsense.  Covid seems to have unearthed an element of society who have been brainwashed by daily instructions and pronouncements. Unfortunately, people died before Covid and multiple times more have died since, with non-Covid causes. 

It’s also exposed a section of society, who no matter what relatively easy and minor personal adjustments to their daily lives they have been asked to make, simply won’t do it. That attitude has killed people. The blood is on their hands collectively. Thousands of people who died because a close relative or friend couldn’t bring themselves to follow some simple and temporary  rules to save lives 

Edited June 16, 2021 by JimmyCant

[Konrad von Carstein]

Go Bojo... Fud.

[Enzo Chiefo]

2 minutes ago, JimmyCant said:

It’s also exposed a section of society, who no matter what relatively easy and minor personal adjustments to their daily lives they have been asked to make, simply won’t do it. That attitude has killed people. The blood is on their hands collectively.

Nobody has any blood on their hands. What it has exposed is that, as a nation, we are unfit and unhealthy and every individual has to start taking personal responsibility to change that and reduce the strain on the NHS.

[JimmyCant]

1 minute ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

Nobody has any blood on their hands. What it has exposed is that, as a nation, we are unfit and unhealthy and every individual has to start taking personal responsibility to change that and reduce the strain on the NHS.

Unfortunately the ageing process sees to it that you don’t remain fit and healthy all your life. Your immune system degrades as you get older no matter how healthy a life style you’ve lived previously. 

[Boab]

4 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

Nobody has any blood on their hands. What it has exposed is that, as a nation, we are unfit and unhealthy and every individual has to start taking personal responsibility to change that and reduce the strain on the NHS.

Sorry, Enzo, but that’s nonsense.

We elect governments to make the right decisions. We were woefully unprepared for this and the catastrophic decisions made last year cost many many lives. That’s both governments, I’m not playing politics here. The corrupt nature of our governments caused this, not the lifestyles of the population.

[Ray Gin]

15 minutes ago, JimmyCant said:

It’s also exposed a section of society, who no matter what relatively easy and minor personal adjustments to their daily lives they have been asked to make, simply won’t do it. That attitude has killed people. The blood is on their hands collectively. Thousands of people who died because a close relative or friend couldn’t bring themselves to follow some simple and temporary  rules to save lives 

 

Well said. 👍

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

32 minutes ago, JimmyCant said:

It’s also exposed a section of society, who no matter what relatively easy and minor personal adjustments to their daily lives they have been asked to make, simply won’t do it. That attitude has killed people. The blood is on their hands collectively. Thousands of people who died because a close relative or friend couldn’t bring themselves to follow some simple and temporary  rules to save lives 

“ relatively easy and minor adjustments “ to their daily lives ? Are you having a laugh . We had draconian laws and restrictions which curtailed our ever day lives . You couldn’t even have people visit you , couldn’t do this or that etc .this was in law .  So your completely off with this assessment . Whether wearing masks and social distancing is “ minor personal adjustments “ well that’s another matter 

[Victorian]

There's a monstrous ticking timebomb volume of heath problems to be addressed.  We've already heard about some of the forecasted waiting list times for various things.  I was speaking to a doctor the other day who was saying we're only just beginning to be told about the tip of the iceberg.  That there's a vast amount of stored up harms and that it will take our hopelessly under resourced services a generation to make inroads.  All the while backfilling with even more health problems as people wait for treatments and diagnostics.  And that's just physical health.  Mental health issues compound the picture. 

 

We're going to have to find some kind of sustainable balancing act between suppressing covid,  allowing economic and social activity,  treating non covid.  I suggest that things are going to become almost dystopian in the NHS unless the covid wolf is kept from the door.  If it comes back as an acute concern then there will be big trouble.

[The Mighty Thor]

42 minutes ago, JimmyCant said:

It’s also exposed a section of society, who no matter what relatively easy and minor personal adjustments to their daily lives they have been asked to make, simply won’t do it.

This.

 

Initially there was a rallying round of what's left of our community spirit but then it didn't take a long time for that to evaporate and the inherent selfishness of a very large swathe of our population to come bursting out. 

They were emboldened to do so by the fringe elements of social media and eventually a small but very vocal element of the MSM. 

 

130,000 tombstones later they're still at it and still wondering why they have to do what they're being asked to.

 

 

[MoncurMacdonaldMercer]

48 minutes ago, JimmyCant said:

It’s also exposed a section of society, who no matter what relatively easy and minor personal adjustments to their daily lives they have been asked to make, simply won’t do it. That attitude has killed people. The blood is on their hands collectively. Thousands of people who died because a close relative or friend couldn’t bring themselves to follow some simple and temporary  rules to save lives 

 

all these 10s of thousands of flu deaths over the years - likely caught from a close relative - they got blood on their hands too ?

 

will they have blood on their hands assuming future flu deaths ?

 

if restrictions fully lifted and there’s future covid deaths - who’s hands got blood on them this time ?

[MoncurMacdonaldMercer]

8 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

This.

 

Initially there was a rallying round of what's left of our community spirit but then it didn't take a long time for that to evaporate and the inherent selfishness of a very large swathe of our population to come bursting out. 

They were emboldened to do so by the fringe elements of social media and eventually a small but very vocal element of the MSM. 

 

130,000 tombstones later they're still at it and still wondering why they have to do what they're being asked to.

 

 

 

not sure selfish individuals can be held responsible for covid in institutional settings like care homes and hospitals so you might want to make some sort of downward tombstone adjustment

 

some recognition of stuff like that would make a world of difference to your post in a positive way

[JudyJudyJudy]

9 minutes ago, MoncurMacdonaldMercer said:

 

all these 10s of thousands of flu deaths over the years - likely caught from a close relative - they got blood on their hands too ?

 

will they have blood on their hands assuming future flu deaths ?

 

if restrictions fully lifted and there’s future covid deaths - who’s hands got blood on them this time ?

It’s almost like Govt speak , the blame game , blaming the vast majority of the population when in fact most people adhered to the draconian measures as they realised that the end game was worth it . 

[The Real Maroonblood]

22 minutes ago, Victorian said:

There's a monstrous ticking timebomb volume of heath problems to be addressed.  We've already heard about some of the forecasted waiting list times for various things.  I was speaking to a doctor the other day who was saying we're only just beginning to be told about the tip of the iceberg.  That there's a vast amount of stored up harms and that it will take our hopelessly under resourced services a generation to make inroads.  All the while backfilling with even more health problems as people wait for treatments and diagnostics.  And that's just physical health.  Mental health issues compound the picture. 

 

We're going to have to find some kind of sustainable balancing act between suppressing covid,  allowing economic and social activity,  treating non covid.  I suggest that things are going to become almost dystopian in the NHS unless the covid wolf is kept from the door.  If it comes back as an acute concern then there will be big trouble.

Pass the gun.

[Seymour M Hersh]

2 hours ago, Ray Gin said:

 

Scotland outcomes = 2 nationwide lockdowns, 7,683 deaths (141 per 100k)

 

 

Scotland population 5.5 million (approx) deaths 7863

Denmark population 5.7 million (approx) deaths 2527

Finland population 5.5 million (approx) deaths 964

Ireland population 4.8 million (approx) deaths 4941

Norway population 5.3 million (approx) deaths 789

[Ray Gin]

2 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Scotland population 5.5 million (approx) deaths 7863

Denmark population 5.7 million (approx) deaths 2527

Finland population 5.5 million (approx) deaths 964

Ireland population 4.8 million (approx) deaths 4941

Norway population 5.3 million (approx) deaths 789

 

If only we were independent, maybe we could have had similar figures. 

[Fxxx the SPFL]

15 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

This.

 

Initially there was a rallying round of what's left of our community spirit but then it didn't take a long time for that to evaporate and the inherent selfishness of a very large swathe of our population to come bursting out. 

They were emboldened to do so by the fringe elements of social media and eventually a small but very vocal element of the MSM. 

 

130,000 tombstones later they're still at it and still wondering why they have to do what they're being asked to.

 

 

How many of the 130,000 tombstones had severe underlying health issues and would no doubt have died anyhow and how many were put down to 'suspected Covid'. My mother in law passed away four weeks ago she had very severe underlying health issues and could have gone anytime in the last twelve months. No doubt if they had put suspected Covid down on her death certificate that would be another death that had feck all to do with it. My daughter who works in a general hospital has also alluded to the fact that a good number of Covid deaths were due to obesity extra pressure on the lungs etc. I have always abided by the rules laid down by the SG i have not always liked or agreed with them but once all have been vaccinated we must try and return to as close to normality as possible imo.

[Seymour M Hersh]

10 minutes ago, Ray Gin said:

 

If only we were independent, maybe we could have had similar figures. 

 

Holyrood has had complete control over the NHS and the handling of the coronavirus.

[Savage Vince]

17 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

It’s almost like Govt speak , the blame game , blaming the vast majority of the population when in fact most people adhered to the draconian measures as they realised that the end game was worth it . 

 

You're trolling yourself now. 

[The Mighty Thor]

31 minutes ago, MoncurMacdonaldMercer said:

 

not sure selfish individuals can be held responsible for covid in institutional settings like care homes and hospitals so you might want to make some sort of downward tombstone adjustment

 

some recognition of stuff like that would make a world of difference to your post in a positive way

I don't disagree with that.

 

The selfish haven't caused all the deaths, absolutely not. What they have done without doubt is prolong and exacerbate the situation. 

 

I'd argue that the selfish people are not just the general public but those with vested interests in the industry that has grown up around the pandemic, who have most definitely exacerbated and prolonged the whole thing.

[Ray Gin]

13 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Holyrood has had complete control over the NHS and the handling of the coronavirus.

 

Doesn't have complete control over our borders, furlough or compensation for needing to isolate etc. 

[Ray Gin]

23 minutes ago, **** the SPFL said:

I have always abided by the rules laid down by the SG i have not always liked or agreed with them but once all have been vaccinated we must try and return to as close to normality as possible imo.

 

That's the plan. 

[Ray Gin]

35 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

It’s almost like Govt speak , the blame game , blaming the vast majority of the population when in fact most people adhered to the draconian measures as they realised that the end game was worth it . 

 

Not you though.

 

[Gizmo]

15 hours ago, Brighton Jambo said:

You actually state in your reply that you advocate keeping borders open for essential trade which is exactly what I was advocating?  So now you are agreeing with me, I honestly can’t keep up.  

 
No, you said our supposed uniqueness made a lockdown impossible.

Absolutely not true - and no, you didn't advocate for keeping borders open for essential trade, you just listed a load of tosh that in your opinion somehow made us uniquely unsuited to closing the borders. Then, of course when you don't get the reply you expected - because of the lack of clarity in your post - you get all abusive. 🙄

 

14 hours ago, MoncurMacdonaldMercer said:

 

you don’t need to be an island fo do all those things so the island thing is a bit of an irrelevance in your previous posts ?

Being an island is a huge advantage to controlling borders so, no, its NOT irrelevant. But at least someone agrees we can lock up our borders and enforce a lockdown properly. 

Why we didn't and ended up with far worse...

[Taffin]

1 hour ago, JimmyCant said:

It’s also exposed a section of society, who no matter what relatively easy and minor personal adjustments to their daily lives they have been asked to make, simply won’t do it. That attitude has killed people. The blood is on their hands collectively. Thousands of people who died because a close relative or friend couldn’t bring themselves to follow some simple and temporary  rules to save lives 

 

It's worth remembering it takes at least two to break the rules. 

 

If you're putting blood on people's hands then you've also got to put some blame on those that caught it sadly.

 

I don't think it's the route to go down.

[Taffin]

38 minutes ago, Ray Gin said:

 

If only we were independent, maybe we could have had similar figures. 

 

Probably would have done, but Scotland chose to remain part of this shit show. It's easy to blame Westminster but when given the chance to leave Scotland said no thanks. Mental.

[Ray Gin]

1 minute ago, Taffin said:

 

It's worth remembering it takes at least two to break the rules. 

 

If you're putting blood on people's hands then you've also got to put some blame on those that caught it sadly.

 

I don't think it's the route to go down.

 

No you don't. You can catch covid without having broken any rules.

 

 

 

[Taffin]

3 minutes ago, Ray Gin said:

 

No you don't. You can catch covid without having broken any rules.

 

 

 

 

How? If social distancing, masks and restrictions work, then as long as you observed that then you shouldn't have caught it. 

 

The logic would also then follow that you can pass it on without breaking any rules...ergo you can't attribute all the deaths to rule breakers. A third of people didn't even get any symptoms, how would they know they were a risk?

 

Edit: if two people are in close enough contact for the virus to spread between them...is that only the fault of the one (potentially completely uknowingly) who already had it?

Edited June 16, 2021 by Taffin

[Ray Gin]

Just now, Taffin said:

 

How? If social distancing, masks and restrictions work, then as long as you observed that then you shouldn't have caught it. 

 

Nobody has ever said these work 100%.

 

Also the rules don't say you need to socially distance from your own household. All it takes is one dickhead in the household to infect the lot.

[Enzo Chiefo]

1 hour ago, Boab said:

Sorry, Enzo, but that’s nonsense.

We elect governments to make the right decisions. We were woefully unprepared for this and the catastrophic decisions made last year cost many many lives. That’s both governments, I’m not playing politics here. The corrupt nature of our governments caused this, not the lifestyles of the population.

Boab, I agree to an extent.  There were catastrophic decisions made but the govt were learning as they went. Catastrophic mistakes were also made by the scientific "experts" both in terms of advice and with ridiculous modelling that directly caused hospitals to be emptied and patients to be decanted to care homes. The Govt ministers who allowed that to happen without testing made a catastrophic mistake.

The conflicting advice around masks lasted for months. The reluctance to embrace testing in the early days in Scotland was a mistake too.

 

The scientific approval for outdoor events like rugby and Cheltenham to go ahead was also a mistake.

 

Those in charge of hospitals that didn't believe it necessary for nurses, dealing with Covid, to be issued with medical grade masks. Likewise those who allowed nurses to work Covid and non- Covid wards during the same shift. Ludicrous.

 

But then apportioning blame with hindsight is the easiest thing in the world.

My point Boab is that no-one "killed" patients nor has "blood on their hands" but myriad mistakes were made by Govts, advisers, NHS bosses, care homes,  individuals etc etc. Blaming everything on Boris Johnson is political theatrics. Of course he has made mistakes and he is a bumbling buffoon but many others have too.

 

[Taffin]

2 minutes ago, Ray Gin said:

 

Nobody has ever said these work 100%.

 

Also the rules don't say you need to socially distance from your own household. All it takes is one dickhead in the household to infect the lot.

 

I'd imagine that's a relatively small proportion of people who've died from it. It's certainly not all of them, or anywhere close. 

 

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

1 hour ago, Victorian said:

There's a monstrous ticking timebomb volume of heath problems to be addressed.  We've already heard about some of the forecasted waiting list times for various things.  I was speaking to a doctor the other day who was saying we're only just beginning to be told about the tip of the iceberg.  That there's a vast amount of stored up harms and that it will take our hopelessly under resourced services a generation to make inroads.  All the while backfilling with even more health problems as people wait for treatments and diagnostics.  And that's just physical health.  Mental health issues compound the picture. 

 

We're going to have to find some kind of sustainable balancing act between suppressing covid,  allowing economic and social activity,  treating non covid.  I suggest that things are going to become almost dystopian in the NHS unless the covid wolf is kept from the door.  If it comes back as an acute concern then there will be big trouble.

With hindsight (and it’s always easier using that) I can’t believe the way certain treatments and surgeries were suspended indefinitely when Covid first struck. There was this image of every hospital in the land being overwhelmed by Covid but that wasn’t the case. The nearest general hospital to me had very few people admitted to ICU etc but despite that, half of the place stood empty for months.

 

Covid needed major restrictions but the government have ultimately given far too much power to people whose advice and guidance is ‘close everything, stop everything’ no matter the additional consequences.

[Brighton Jambo]

19 minutes ago, Gizmo said:

 
No, you said our supposed uniqueness made a lockdown impossible.

Absolutely not true - and no, you didn't advocate for keeping borders open for essential trade, you just listed a load of tosh that in your opinion somehow made us uniquely unsuited to closing the borders. Then, of course when you don't get the reply you expected - because of the lack of clarity in your post - you get all abusive. 🙄

 

Being an island is a huge advantage to controlling borders so, no, its NOT irrelevant. But at least someone agrees we can lock up our borders and enforce a lockdown properly. 

Why we didn't and ended up with far worse...

Could you please point me to where I said the words unique or ‘too important’ or any other phrase that you have made up to try and win an argument you can’t win.  
 

I don’t disagree we could have locked down more but comparing a country like the UK to New Zealand is absolutely ridiculous and just reeks of political point scoring rather than a debate on borders.  From what I can see your argument seems to be based on the simple fact that they are both islands but completely ignores all the other salient points.  They are simply incomparable but you choose not to see it.  

[Gizmo]

8 minutes ago, Ray Gin said:

 

Nobody has ever said these work 100%.

 

Also the rules don't say you need to socially distance from your own household. All it takes is one dickhead in the household to infect the lot.

Or key workers who had no choice throughout the pandemic but to go out to work.

[Boab]

1 minute ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

Boab, I agree to an extent.  There were catastrophic decisions made but the govt were learning as they went. Catastrophic mistakes were also made by the scientific "experts" both in terms of advice and with ridiculous modelling that directly caused hospitals to be emptied and patients to be decanted to care homes. The Govt ministers who allowed that to happen without testing made a catastrophic mistake.

The conflicting advice around masks lasted for months. The reluctance to embrace testing in the early days in Scotland was a mistake too.

 

The scientific approval for outdoor events like rugby and Cheltenham to go ahead was also a mistake.

 

Those in charge of hospitals that didn't believe it necessary for nurses, dealing with Covid, to be issued with medical grade masks. Likewise those who allowed nurses to work Covid and non- Covid wards during the same shift. Ludicrous.

 

But then apportioning blame with hindsight is the easiest thing in the world.

My point Boab is that no-one "killed" patients nor has "blood on their hands" but myriad mistakes were made by Govts, advisers, NHS bosses, care homes,  individuals etc etc. Blaming everything on Boris Johnson is political theatrics. Of course he has made mistakes and he is a bumbling buffoon but many others have too.

 

I disagree about hindsight. We simply weren’t prepared. We were also playing with authoritarianism. Asking people to do things, I mean, c’mon, it is a once in a century pandemic. And we live on an island ! 
Johnson’s first lockdown statement was a classic example of this. People were scratching their heads, wondering what on earth he was telling them. Vague babbling and no concrete rules. I must ask you to stay at home. Jeez, if it wasn’t so serious, it would have been laughable.

The mistakes, all avoidable, cost lives. They are culpable. Simple as that.

[Taffin]

Just now, Gizmo said:

Or key workers who had no choice throughout the pandemic but to go out to work.

 

Those who weren't deemed priority for vaccination you mean, those key workers? In the main though, they should have all been in a 'covid securr' workplace, distanced and behind screens.